oldsarum Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 I don't know a great deal about the construction industry, but surely the architect's job is done once the plans have been submitted? Those plans were submitted months ago, so unless Cortese's suddenly decided he doesn't like something about the design (not beyond the realms of possibility), surely there's no need for an architect to be involved at this stage. Steve as you say you don't know a grat deal about Construction industry. I only wish design was finished when job starts on site, but in my experience there are always loads of changes, and many features have not been fully designed prior to starting on site. Also the Client's are constantly changing their minds regarding the specification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 I have heard nothing but that doesn't mean to say I can't say I am not surprised. why are you not surprised...what conclusion have you come to...considering you have heard nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Can't see why it's so important anyway, it's a training ground in the middle of nowhere. As long as it serves it's purpose I don't see that it really matters whether we have a new tea hut or not. As for the academy.... forget it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 I know someone on here that close to the Company in question (Dig Dig) and the last he was aware there was no major problem but some talk of expanding upon the original plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 I bet this goes like most rumours from the club.. Fitzhugh, hypo and Turkish all of a sudden say they have "heard about this"...we will go on to about 300 posts once MLG comes in.....then when the truth comes out, everyone will be way off the mark.... Just like i was with Clyne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paris Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 I'll wait for the official news me thinks .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveStone Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Construction specifications always end up being full of grey areas that aren't always spotted at the time of tender, but do come to light when it comes to doing the physical work. As mentioned above, typically an employer will employ a Project Management firm to manage the Contractor on their behalf, but that role used to be carried out by the architect and that could well be the case in this instance. Granted at time of tender there are often quite a lot of unknowns (i.e. risks normally priced in or excluded by the contractor from their tender price). But with respect the vast majority of the actual specifications are known. For example the specifications for the playing surfaces in this scenario would be known, the concrete strength specifications would be known, and whether Cortese wants a solid or plated-gold Guly statue would be known. Historically architects acted as the client's project manager as well as their designer, this is still the case on smaller projects and could possibly be the case here, but on larger projects the norm is to engage a specific project management firm; unless the client wants to try and cut corners and kill two birds with one stone using the architect as designer and project manager. Judging by Cortese's $30m summer transfer spend and swiss banking background IMO he doesn't strike me as someone who looks to cut corners just to save a few quid. I'd be surprised if he didn't have a PM firm looking after the club's interests. As someone else mentioned be interesting to find out what the real reasons are. I don't buy the unknown specification reason, primarily because there are numerous different specifications required for a construction project, and say even if one or two of those are unknown for some reason, the contractor should still be able to proceed with other areas of the project that are not affected by the "unknown specification". Could be wrong though without knowing the facts. anyone know what stage of the works the project is at? just started/half way/nearly finished? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paris Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 At least i get to learn about building regulations today if nothing else ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wooley7 Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 I work for a consultancy as a Project Manager on large construction projects and as mentioned it is likely the club have employed a PM to administer the contract. The involvement of the architect will largely depend on the type of contract being used. In most cases the architect is still employed throughout the build providing more detailed construction information as the project progresses and is also likely that things like door handles, furniture and other details have yet to be agreed and design meeting will usually be held throughout the build process to agree these final details. Once the contracts are signed and the build begins client changes can end up being expensive as the contractor is no longer in a competitive situation, knowing what has been said about NC in the past this could be a sticking point particularly if these changes are fairly major. Stopping a contractor once the contract has begun means extended prelims and is a decision not usually taken lightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Granted at time of tender there are often quite a lot of unknowns (i.e. risks normally priced in or excluded by the contractor from their tender price). But with respect the vast majority of the actual specifications are known. For example the specifications for the playing surfaces in this scenario would be known, the concrete strength specifications would be known, and whether Cortese wants a solid or plated-gold Guly statue would be known. Historically architects acted as the client's project manager as well as their designer, this is still the case on smaller projects and could possibly be the case here, but on larger projects the norm is to engage a specific project management firm; unless the client wants to try and cut corners and kill two birds with one stone using the architect as designer and project manager. Judging by Cortese's $30m summer transfer spend and swiss banking background IMO he doesn't strike me as someone who looks to cut corners just to save a few quid. I'd be surprised if he didn't have a PM firm looking after the club's interests. As someone else mentioned be interesting to find out what the real reasons are. I don't buy the unknown specification reason, primarily because there are numerous different specifications required for a construction project, and say even if one or two of those are unknown for some reason, the contractor should still be able to proceed with other areas of the project that are not affected by the "unknown specification". Could be wrong though without knowing the facts. anyone know what stage of the works the project is at? just started/half way/nearly finished? "With respect" I didn't say that that the vast majority of specifications wouldn't be known and clear at the time of tender, that is pretty obvious. I doubt they bid to build a "shiny new training ground". Much more chance of there being the need though for further clarification and agreement on the specification on a one-off, niche, high-end build like this then churning out 20 semi-detached Barrat homes. Agree that it is rare for it to stop construction outright, would be interesting to see more details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimond Geezer Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Steve as you say you don't know a grat deal about Construction industry. I only wish design was finished when job starts on site, but in my experience there are always loads of changes, and many features have not been fully designed prior to starting on site. Also the Client's are constantly changing their minds regarding the specification. The beauty of the Design & Build contract, or as we call them Build & Design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iansums Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 I'm far less surprised than Fitshugh Fella and thought this would happen long before Turkish did. I have a mate whose company did work for the club for a number of years and some of the requests (demands) from Cortese were quite ridiculous. But I suppose we've all heard this about Cortese by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 I'm far less surprised than Fitshugh Fella and thought this would happen long before Turkish did. I have a mate whose company did work for the club for a number of years and some of the requests (demands) from Cortese were quite ridiculous. But I suppose we've all heard this about Cortese by now. Yes,we've all heard how nasty he is. Unfortunately, no one seems able to actual provide any specific detail other than the classic "I heard from a mate who used to work for the club"... At least we've got the likes of Turkish keeping his ears to the ground with his "sources" keeping us all in the loop. Did you know that as well as stopping the construction if the training complex, he also made Adkins pick Rodriguez on Saturday? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miltonroader07 Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 The rumor is that they are gonna lease the small pitch to the Skates when they enter the Pyortsmuff Commercial League... the pitch comes with a shed and watering can at extra cost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miltonroader07 Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 What Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Yes,we've all heard how nasty he is. Unfortunately, no one seems able to actual provide any specific detail other than the classic "I heard from a mate who used to work for the club"... At least we've got the likes of Turkish keeping his ears to the ground with his "sources" keeping us all in the loop. Did you know that as well as stopping the construction if the training complex, he also made Adkins pick Rodriguez on Saturday? Do you seriously expect people to name names and sources? People's livelihoods are at stake so if I said on here 'xxxxxx told me........'on a public forum which the club look at then it'd cause them big problems. I don't give a sh*t if people don't believe me or not, just passing on what I hear. Like the Clyne and Phillips deals, sometimes it eventually makes the public domain sometimes it doesnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Maybe the contractors have all gone to work for Arsenal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 LOL@you thinking you were ITK about Clyne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Do you seriously expect people to name names and sources? People's livelihoods are at stake so if I said on here 'xxxxxx told me........'on a public forum which the club look at then it'd cause them big problems. I don't give a sh*t if people don't believe me or not, just passing on what I hear. Like the Clyne and Phillips deals, sometimes it eventually makes the public domain sometimes it doesnt. Thanks for the PM, Turks. Interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 why are you not surprised...what conclusion have you come to...considering you have heard nothing Some advice -You would be the last person I would share any conclusions with as you are nothing but a stirring troll who needs to get a life. HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Yes,we've all heard how nasty he is. At least we've got the likes of Turkish keeping his ears to the ground with his "sources" keeping us all in the loop. Did you know that as well as stopping the construction if the training complex, he also made Adkins pick Rodriguez on Saturday? You can joke, but were you aware that Cortese also instructed Rodriguez to fluff our best chance of the match? Wheels within wheels.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimond Geezer Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Some advice -You would be the last person I would share any conclusions with as you are nothing but a stirring troll who needs to get a life. HTH I guess that's one copy of Suited & Booted that won't get sold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Do you seriously expect people to name names and sources? People's livelihoods are at stake so if I said on here 'xxxxxx told me........'on a public forum which the club look at then it'd cause them big problems. I don't give a sh*t if people don't believe me or not, just passing on what I hear. Like the Clyne and Phillips deals, sometimes it eventually makes the public domain sometimes it doesnt. That's the thing though, you don't pass on anything really, it's pointless. I'll just keep sitting and waiting until all this terrible stuff does come out in the open then. Been waiting for over 3 years now.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 That's the thing though, you don't pass on anything really, it's pointless. I'll just keep sitting and waiting until all this terrible stuff does come out in the open then. Been waiting for over 3 years now.... 3 years and the worst we have is car park fees! Comedy really when the guy has transformed the club. In this scenario then seeing as the revamp is costing a lot of money hopefully we are making sure it is as good as it can be. Adam Blackmore from Solent seems to think its a minor hitch over a part of the plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 LOL@you thinking you were ITK about Clyne. I Think you'll find I posted about 6 weeks before he joined that we were taking to him and so were a number of Other clubs. I also pmd a couple of people on here details of it nearer the time about 3 or 4 days before he signed, people I wanted to share the information with, not people that are helmets, like a lot of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 That's the thing though, you don't pass on anything really, it's pointless. I'll just keep sitting and waiting until all this terrible stuff does come out in the open then. Been waiting for over 3 years now.... I do to people I want to share it with, but not on a public forum and I don't respond to begin for info pMs like I go when I posted snippets about the Clyne and Phillips stuff. I had My fingers burnt a few years back when I posted some info on the old s4E site and got the source in teouble so won't be doing it again. AnywY lOL @ me Pretending to be itk etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 I do to people I want to share it with, but not on a public forum and I don't respond to begin for info pMs like I go when I posted snippets about the Clyne and Phillips stuff. I had My fingers burnt a few years back when I posted some info on the old s4E site and got the source in teouble so won't be doing it again. AnywY lOL @ me Pretending to be itk etc Indeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Indeed If i start this by saying that Cortese is one of our best ever signings and recognise the huge amount of success he has bought to the club, then i hope you realise how highly i rate him...... that doesn't mean he is above criticism. I know a few people who work for the club and would never post on here anything that could get them into trouble or more likely sacked. If you want some sort of validation on any of the stories that do appear, then make some friends at the club, failing that the only suggestion I can make is to check the accounts when they come out and see if there is line item for legal fees................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 3 years and the worst we have is car park fees! Comedy really when the guy has transformed the club. And the ticket tax :-) What did the Romans ever do for us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_Randell Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 I do to people I want to share it with, but not on a public forum and I don't respond to begin for info pMs like I go when I posted snippets about the Clyne and Phillips stuff. I had My fingers burnt a few years back when I posted some info on the old s4E site and got the source in teouble so won't be doing it again. AnywY lOL @ me Pretending to be itk etc How come you only mention this 'issue' when something comes out about it in the press? Not doubting you just wonder why you don't mention it when you first find out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRichmond Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 (edited) I know someone on here that close to the Company in question (Dig Dig) and the last he was aware there was no major problem but some talk of expanding upon the original plans. Once Cortese found out that Brighton's New facilities included NINE pitches, he decided to expand the Staplewood project to match Edited 3 October, 2012 by SaintRichmond missing words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostBoys Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Staplewood used to be the football ground of Road-sea (really nice facilities at the time - in the 80s/90s). A relatively young club that did really well, winning all sorts. I remember the son of the owner (Rob Price) used to go to school with my bro until his Dad divorced (I think) and his financial backing went and the club seemed to nose dive after that period. Shame really. The club sold the facilities in Marchwood to Southampton and the club use it for training and development, reserve team games, etc. and academy facilities. yes I scored a goal there in a cup game - the shot was actually an overhit cross which sailed over the head of the keeper. Although from some divisions lower we led 2 zip until towards the end but eventually got dicked 5 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 How come you only mention this 'issue' when something comes out about it in the press? Not doubting you just wonder why you don't mention it when you first find out? Tbf to echo Turks whats the point ? You post some reliable info that you have heard and get grief for it, especially if nothing ever hits the press. Fwiw too I have been on the end of Cortese's 'demands' but I would assume he is more likely just protecting his asset rather than anything worse. He is pretty keen to get this training ground sorted so assume its being changed slightly, I woukdnt get your knickers in a twist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 yes I scored a goal there in a cup game - the shot was actually an overhit cross which sailed over the head of the keeper. Although from some divisions lower we led 2 zip until towards the end but eventually got dicked 5 2. Think Road Sea are still in business though, might have merged with another freight forwarder methinks, GJ Cooper perhaps. Quite a few of the lads who made the entire journey from Sunday League to Southern League with RS actually worked for them, they did start signing a few ex-pros towards the end though. Think Paul Bennett played for them at the end of his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Indeed Barking up the wrong tree me thinks as he was bang on about the Clyne deal and PM'd me the details in advance. I also know about the Phillips deal from a non-SFC sourse which confirmed what Turkish had said about it. As I know who he got into trouble at SFC previously it's not surprising how he shares his info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Tbf to echo Turks whats the point ? You post some reliable info that you have heard and get grief for it, especially if nothing ever hits the press. Fwiw too I have been on the end of Cortese's 'demands' but I would assume he is more likely just protecting his asset rather than anything worse. He is pretty keen to get this training ground sorted so assume its being changed slightly, I woukdnt get your knickers in a twist You've changed your tune a fair bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 As exciting as all this"I know stuff", "oh no you don't" stuff is, does anyone know what state our training ground is in at the moment? Do we still have decent indoor facilities as winter approaches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Tbf to echo Turks whats the point ? You post some reliable info that you have heard and get grief for it, especially if nothing ever hits the press. Fwiw too I have been on the end of Cortese's 'demands' but I would assume he is more likely just protecting his asset rather than anything worse. He is pretty keen to get this training ground sorted so assume its being changed slightly, I woukdnt get your knickers in a twist Exactly. If I were to post on here that I heard from a source that I'm not going to name that there were issues with the contractors regarding the training ground everyone would be up in arms accusing me of having an agenda and having it in for Cortese. The mods, have they have done in the past would lock the thread within minutes as having no substance. People on here believe what they want too and most of the dismiss anyone that suggests Cortese isn't the greatest person who ever lived as a bull****ter with an agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Some advice -You would be the last person I would share any conclusions with as you are nothing but a stirring troll who needs to get a life. HTH Superb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Barking up the wrong tree me thinks as he was bang on about the Clyne deal and PM'd me the details in advance. I also know about the Phillips deal from a non-SFC sourse which confirmed what Turkish had said about it. As I know who he got into trouble at SFC previously it's not surprising how he shares his info. I've not questioned the info on Clyne or Phillips. It just becomes tiresome reading about how this awful tyrant runs our club, scouts our transfer targets and picks the team. Turkish has been just as guilty as anyone else on here recently in peddling this stuff out. Some very predictable responses as well regarding the latest developments of the training ground. I do believe that Cortese is likely to be a difficult person to deal with if you're on the wrong side of him but equally, there have been plenty of quotes around from people who have dealt with him who have said that he seemed perfectly reasonable. These are largely ignored however. As usual, there are two sides to every story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulletsaint Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Superb Can I join your gang? Awww go on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulletsaint Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 BBC Radio Solent on Twitter: #saintsfc confirm redevelopment work at club's training ground in Marchwood has been temporarily suspended due to issue with contractors. Darn it the Liebherrs have finally stopped funding NC's pipe dreams... Or we ran out of money because we spent way too much money on luxury attacking players... Or Cortese's demands that the contractors also build him a Greco Roman villa in the New Forest out of the budget has finally ****ed them off... Or they've found the body of Ali Dia buried underneath the complex... Or... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedro Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Maybe we don't have the funds as another thread exposes our loans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 I bet Tottenham, Stoke and QPR aren't having these issues with their poxy little training grounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Well, this is hardly surprising. We've fallen out with 3 contractors to date. So this is the 4th. Not going to comment on why, or how, or what's happened before but it's just irritating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 I played for Road Sea a couple of times,towards the start of their ascendancy, went up like a bonfire night rocket and just sort of fizzled out at the top. I'd moved to Brussels by then so I never did quite understand what happened. We were f*cking good though even in the infancy of the side when I was in it.. Peter Price got into golf and lost interest. Just closed it down, kept the cricket going for a while then closed it altogether, for sale until Saints bought it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Think Road Sea are still in business though, might have merged with another freight forwarder methinks, GJ Cooper perhaps. Quite a few of the lads who made the entire journey from Sunday League to Southern League with RS actually worked for them, they did start signing a few ex-pros towards the end though. Think Paul Bennett played for them at the end of his career. Graham Hounsell and Paul Baxter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 I love how this training ground was lauded as an example of us being big time and now it's a poxy little thing that no one else cares about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 I love how this training ground was lauded as an example of us being big time and now it's a poxy little thing that no one else cares about. who doesnt care about it..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
up and away Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 I work for a consultancy as a Project Manager on large construction projects and as mentioned it is likely the club have employed a PM to administer the contract. The involvement of the architect will largely depend on the type of contract being used. In most cases the architect is still employed throughout the build providing more detailed construction information as the project progresses and is also likely that things like door handles, furniture and other details have yet to be agreed and design meeting will usually be held throughout the build process to agree these final details. Once the contracts are signed and the build begins client changes can end up being expensive as the contractor is no longer in a competitive situation, knowing what has been said about NC in the past this could be a sticking point particularly if these changes are fairly major. Stopping a contractor once the contract has begun means extended prelims and is a decision not usually taken lightly. It all depends upon the contract and the stoppage can be instigated by either party until forward agreement has been reached. If you have little in terms of time penalties this can happen far more readily because you can invoke a stoppage at less cost. This type of contract will already cover everything down to the method of adjudication should both parties hit a wall. I have seen instances where contractors have had to draw a line in the sand because of bankruptcy fears, others where the client believes they are being shafted because of changes to the original specification or errors never picked up by either party relating to planning. This will get solved relatively quickly unless one of the parties is about to go bust and is no where near as dramatic as what it first sounds. It is an impasse between both parties on the way forward of an obstacle and will get settled by adjudication of some means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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