How many tactical mistakes is Adkins allowed?

[Turkish]

See it's posts like these that show how you end up spending half your life on these 'mong' boards...

 

Now be a sensible boy turds, take the 'spaz' hat off, and go back and read what I said again.

 

Turdish

 

Yep read it again still looks like you're relying on hoping a goalkeeper most of us have never seen play keeping out two chances and us taking every chance we get. Of course, no other team is capable of taking every chance they get, only

Us. Isn't that right Road Saint?

[rooney]

Having seen the highlights, it seems we gave too much space to Everton's wingers. After the first 20 mins we should have changed formation and brought our wingers back more to help the full backs, with Rickie left up front on his own. Everton's crowd were getting frustrated by then as we were winning and this may have filtered through to their players. Thats where the tactics were wrong I feel. We cannot play attacking football all the time away from home imho.

[Avenue Saint]

I find it shocking that a self proclaimed God fearing person like yourself would use language like, "mong" and "spaz". Disgraceful.

 

Take your point, but if you notice the inverted commas, you'll see it is in reference to the turdman's language used on here.

 

Pretty much how you did there... Get it?

 

 

Anyway, who makes you the reigning authority? Learn to read first, then go do one.

 

Pillock.

[Avenue Saint]

 

Turdish

 

Yep read it again still looks like you're relying on hoping a goalkeeper most of us have never seen play keeping out two chances and us taking every chance we get. Of course, no other team is capable of taking every chance they get, only

Us. Isn't that right Road Saint?

 

...oh dear

[Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd]

Adkins has made some very questionable tactical decisions, I'm still unconvinced by his tactical ability.

 

why change the 4-4-2 formation which worked so successfully over past 2 seasons?

why stick with 4-3-3/4-5-1 which clearly isn't working?

why stick with zonal marking which, again, isn't working

why drop Puncheon from the Everton game, one of best players this season and especially v Villa. Done more than Lallana has this season.

Why take off best 3 players v Man Utd?

Why pay £6m for a centre forward and play him on the wing?

 

The Fulham game is the biggest game of our season, fail to win and the pressure will mount. Man marking please and 2 up front at home

 

Spot on. Pretty much sums up my view on things too.

[Lord Duckhunter]

The great thing about forums is that the posters teams and formations dont ever get to go out and play Man Utd, Everton, Man C and Arsenal like Nigel's teams have had to. Christ, how many points did people expect us to get?

 

All this talk of 4-4-2 is nonsense, when we went into taht formation against Wigan we were outplayed and couldn't get hold of the ball.

 

Against Man C, the experts in the MoTD studio said it was a great move leaving Lambert on the bench and then bring him on as a game changer, it so nearly worked. Against Arsenal we were undone by poor errors with people like Gary Neville saying we were set up right.He then contrasted our set up with Readings, is their manager getting stick on their messages boards?

 

Everton, our starting formation confussed them at the start and had Jay Rod buried a very scoreable chance who knows what would have happened.

 

It's too simplistic to balme Nigel and claim he hasn't got his tactics right. Personally I think the midfield are not protecting the back 4 enough. The main culprit is AL, but he's untouchable on here. Lets get AB in nets and then see where we are after our next 4 games.

[Lets B Avenue]

It's too simplistic to balme Nigel and claim he hasn't got his tactics right. Personally I think the midfield are not protecting the back 4 enough. The main culprit is AL, but he's untouchable on here. Lets get AB in nets and then see where we are after our next 4 games.

 

 

I've been saying this all season. As soon as he was appointed Captain, it virtually guaranteed his selection.

 

Fox came in for heaps on here after the ManU game, but no-one mentioned how AL gave Rafael the freedom of the park, leaving Fox to mark two people. It was the same on Saturday, with Clyne getting no help at all.

 

Even when he was back "helping", look at the 3rd goal and his pathetic attempt to tackle Coleman. If that was Fox or more relevant, Guly, this board would have had a meltdown.

 

His best position (ie where he can do the least damage to us) has been taken by Ramirez. Can we afford to play both away from home. On Saturday it was obvious that we couldnt.

[tajjuk]

Haven't read the whole thread, however few points:-

 

- We were always going to loose away at Man City, Arsenal and Everton.

 

- 4-4-2 is football relic, no team that plays "possession football" plays it. Most teams in the league will have 3 players in centre midfield and will tear you apart if you only play 2.

 

- Shorty and Skinny Richard Chaplow will not add 'bite' to our midfield. He will add fouls. He has also hardly played in CM for us the entire time we have had him, he's not defensive midfielder and he is also not good enough.

 

- Morgan was a big miss and is pretty much key to our formation by protecting the back four, the only viable replacement is Cork who is also injured. These things happen.

 

- We are not good enough to 'shut up shop' away from home. It's a pointless exercise we will lose and just look more dismal doing it. Our strength is in attack, we should play to that strength. It doesn't mean going 'gung ho' but it means that we have to be more disciplined as a team but still be positive in our play. If we line up 10 men on the edge of the box we will still concede, if we play with a positive intent we catch some teams cold at home, however see above, against probably the best Everton team for 20 years whatever we did was going to be fruitless.

 

- Both the Wigan and Everton games could have gone our way, against Wigan AL missed a hatfull and we had a great opportunity to go 2-0 against Everton. That's football.

 

- Judge NA's tactics, our line ups, formation and the ability of our team after he have played more games than the 4 or so of the best 6 teams in this league.

 

Oh and we aren't bottom, a lot of teams look a lot worse than us and have played a lot worst teams than us.

[The Kraken]

 

I've been saying this all season. As soon as he was appointed Captain, it virtually guaranteed his selection.

 

Fox came in for heaps on here after the ManU game, but no-one mentioned how AL gave Rafael the freedom of the park, leaving Fox to mark two people. It was the same on Saturday, with Clyne getting no help at all.

 

Even when he was back "helping", look at the 3rd goal and his pathetic attempt to tackle Coleman. If that was Fox or more relevant, Guly, this board would have had a meltdown.

 

His best position (ie where he can do the least damage to us) has been taken by Ramirez. Can we afford to play both away from home. On Saturday it was obvious that we couldnt.

 

On this point I very much agree; at least against the better sides in the division. Not only did we have Lallana and Ramirez in midfield positions, we also had Lambert and Rodriguez. That's 4 players whose natural inclination is going forwards rather than defending; its simply too open and too adventurous a line-up.

 

Sadly, I can see that with AL as captain and Ramirez as the £12M man we will never drop either of them. I've said it before but in a more compact and tighter line-up I'd much prefer to someone like Jack Cork or JWP at RM (when injuries permit) and, given the paucity of options on the left side, I'd even suggest Ryan Dickson could have a part to play. Our current options out wide of Lallana, Rodriguez, Puncheon and Guly are all attacking options that expose the defence. Chaplow is really the only other option who has played a decent number of games last season.

[The Kraken]

We are not good enough to 'shut up shop' away from home. It's a pointless exercise we will lose and just look more dismal doing it. Our strength is in attack, we should play to that strength. It doesn't mean going 'gung ho' but it means that we have to be more disciplined as a team but still be positive in our play. If we line up 10 men on the edge of the box we will still concede, if we play with a positive intent we catch some teams cold at home, however see above, against probably the best Everton team for 20 years whatever we did was going to be fruitless.

 

You seem to be taking a very black and white view of it; as if you're suggesting that if we countenance trying to keep things a lot tighter that instantly means we're trying to park the bus. It doesn't. As i said in the post above our team against Everton contained 4 attackers; against an in-form side like Everton that wasn't brave, it was naive. By adopting a slightly more defensive setup we can strengthen the flanks while still playing a similar style to the one we do now.

[Thedelldays]

You seem to be taking a very black and white view of it; as if you're suggesting that if we countenance trying to keep things a lot tighter that instantly means we're trying to park the bus. It doesn't. As i said in the post above our team against Everton contained 4 attackers; against an in-form side like Everton that wasn't brave, it was naive. By adopting a slightly more defensive setup we can strengthen the flanks while still playing a similar style to the one we do now.

however great it may sound by trying to go for it home and away....as a team that has just come up..it will get adkins the sack or us relegated.....

[Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd]

I think we've really missed Cork this season. With him and Schneiderlin missing we really struggle to protect the back 4.

[Saint Garrett]

I think we've really missed Cork this season. With him and Schneiderlin missing we really struggle to protect the back 4.

 

I agree

 

With Cork, Morgan and Davis playing in the CM roles, Ramirez and Lallana wide of Lambert, we will be a lot tighter IMO. JWP is a cracking little player, but I think we need to be careful playing him every week in a losing side.

[Turkish]

Take your point, but if you notice the inverted commas, you'll see it is in reference to the turdman's language used on here.

 

Pretty much how you did there... Get it?

 

 

Anyway, who makes you the reigning authority? Learn to read first, then go do one.

 

Pillock.

 

Oh dear he's full of the insults today. But then I would be once I realised how stupid i looked in my plan for success this season depended totally a goal keeper we've never seen play saving every shot and our strikers scoring every chance they get. I think Cul De Sac Saints is more apt.

[Avenue Saint]

Oh dear he's full of the insults today. But then I would be once I realised how stupid i looked in my plan for success this season depended totally a goal keeper we've never seen play saving every shot and our strikers scoring every chance they get. I think Cul De Sac Saints is more apt.

 

Is that the best you got?

 

Lol...

[Dig Dig]

I agree

 

With Cork, Morgan and Davis playing in the CM roles, Ramirez and Lallana wide of Lambert, we will be a lot tighter IMO. JWP is a cracking little player, but I think we need to be careful playing him every week in a losing side.

 

I remember how awful and uncreative we were when we played 3 central midfielders last season. Didn't get a point from what I recall.

[Legod Third Coming]

Haven't read the whole thread, however few points:-

 

- We were always going to loose away at Man City, Arsenal and Everton.

 

- 4-4-2 is football relic, no team that plays "possession football" plays it. Most teams in the league will have 3 players in centre midfield and will tear you apart if you only play 2.

 

- Shorty and Skinny Richard Chaplow will not add 'bite' to our midfield. He will add fouls. He has also hardly played in CM for us the entire time we have had him, he's not defensive midfielder and he is also not good enough.

 

- Morgan was a big miss and is pretty much key to our formation by protecting the back four, the only viable replacement is Cork who is also injured. These things happen.

 

- We are not good enough to 'shut up shop' away from home. It's a pointless exercise we will lose and just look more dismal doing it. Our strength is in attack, we should play to that strength. It doesn't mean going 'gung ho' but it means that we have to be more disciplined as a team but still be positive in our play. If we line up 10 men on the edge of the box we will still concede, if we play with a positive intent we catch some teams cold at home, however see above, against probably the best Everton team for 20 years whatever we did was going to be fruitless.

 

- Both the Wigan and Everton games could have gone our way, against Wigan AL missed a hatfull and we had a great opportunity to go 2-0 against Everton. That's football.

 

- Judge NA's tactics, our line ups, formation and the ability of our team after he have played more games than the 4 or so of the best 6 teams in this league.

 

Oh and we aren't bottom, a lot of teams look a lot worse than us and have played a lot worst teams than us.

 

BINGO - apparently being beaten by Everton is tactical failing...

 

Here are Everton's home Premiership results working backwards in 2012:

 

3-1, 2-2, 1-0, 5-0, 3-1, 4-0,4-0, 2-0, 0-1 (Arsenal), 1-0, 2-0, 2-0, 1-0, 1-1, 1-2 (Bolton),...

 

So during those games (which include United twice, Citeh, and Chelsea), Everton have been beaten precisely twice at home - once by Arsenal and once by Bolton.

 

But new boys in the league should have won but for tactics?

This place is fecking mental some times.

[Saint Garrett]

I remember how awful and uncreative we were when we played 3 central midfielders last season. Didn't get a point from what I recall.

 

Yes, but that was a tad different, we were playing a CM out right midfield. Schneiderlin is never going to be a very good right midfielder.

[The Kraken]

BINGO - apparently being beaten by Everton is tactical failing...

 

Here are Everton's home Premiership results working backwards in 2012:

 

3-1, 2-2, 1-0, 5-0, 3-1, 4-0,4-0, 2-0, 0-1 (Arsenal), 1-0, 2-0, 2-0, 1-0, 1-1, 1-2 (Bolton),...

 

So during those games (which include United twice, Citeh, and Chelsea), Everton have been beaten precisely twice at home - once by Arsenal and once by Bolton.

 

But new boys in the league should have won but for tactics?

This place is fecking mental some times.

 

What is truly mental is you trying to put words in other people's mouths; and saying that had we just changed the tactics we would have won, and not lost. As far as I can make out no-one is suggesting that, are they? Unless I've missed it. Most people seem to simply be suggesting that a more robust and slightly more defensive setup may have been a better idea for that particular game, and would have perhaps not left the team so exposed as playing 4 forwards clearly did.

[Turkish]

Is that the best you got?

 

Lol...

 

Yeah, not quite as hilarious and ingenious as 'turdish' and 'turdman' is it.

[Turkish]

What is truly mental is you trying to put words in other people's mouths; and saying that had we just changed the tactics we would have won, and not lost. As far as I can make out no-one is suggesting that, are they? Unless I've missed it. Most people seem to simply be suggesting that a more robust and slightly more defensive setup may have been a better idea for that particular game, and would have perhaps not left the team so exposed as playing 4 forwards clearly did.

 

If Boruc had played and we'd taken all of our chances we'd have won though.

[The Kraken]

If Boruc had played and we'd taken all of our chances we'd have won though.

 

That is true, I'd forgotten that Saints are the only team that misses goalscoring opportunities and lets goals in that they shouldn't.

[grammy]

The great thing about forums is that the posters teams and formations dont ever get to go out and play Man Utd, Everton, Man C and Arsenal like Nigel's teams have had to. Christ, how many points did people expect us to get?

 

All this talk of 4-4-2 is nonsense, when we went into taht formation against Wigan we were outplayed and couldn't get hold of the ball.

 

Against Man C, the experts in the MoTD studio said it was a great move leaving Lambert on the bench and then bring him on as a game changer, it so nearly worked. Against Arsenal we were undone by poor errors with people like Gary Neville saying we were set up right.He then contrasted our set up with Readings, is their manager getting stick on their messages boards?

 

Everton, our starting formation confussed them at the start and had Jay Rod buried a very scoreable chance who knows what would have happened.

 

It's too simplistic to balme Nigel and claim he hasn't got his tactics right. Personally I think the midfield are not protecting the back 4 enough. The main culprit is AL, but he's untouchable on here. Lets get AB in nets and then see where we are after our next 4 games.

 

Great post LDH Watched every game so far and don't think overall we have played that badly considering the quality of the oppostion. We have created good chances and scored against some of the best teams in England and Europe. Most problems imo have been created by mistakes in midfield, some at the moment tbh seem to be struggling with the new formation but even after the crap results we have had we are still not in the bottom 3!! Many posters on here seem to think we should have bought a whole new team in the summer but it hasn't done QR ha ha ha ha much good as yet. Last seasons squad at least deserved a chance surely? We will learn and improve and I am sure will strengthen where neccessary in January plus we still have Corky/Lee/Spiderman/Jos to come back in in the next few weeks. COYR Sing yer hearts out for the lads!!

[Lets B Avenue]

Yeah, not quite as hilarious and ingenious as 'turdish' and 'turdman' is it.

 

How about "Burkish"? Or anagrammatically, "Sh it ruk"?

[Golac's Cunning Stunts]

He is allowed 42 tactical mistakes.

[Window Cleaner]

He is allowed 42 tactical mistakes.

 

How many of those has he used up now then?

[Golac's Cunning Stunts]

How many of those has he used up now then?

 

That is a question that is hard to answer. Sort of like "What is the meaning of life?"

 

Joking apart, I find it hard to criticise him for tactical mistakes as long as he learns from them. How does anyone ever learn if they don't make any mistakes? Fergie has made plenty in the past, and still does.

 

I remember some vague story about Richard Branson. An employee made a mistake that cost one of his companies a lot of money. When he was asked whether or not the employee should be sacked, he responded "Are you joking? Why would I want to sack somebody with millions of pounds worth of experience?" Not sure if the story is true, my recollection of it is fairly vague, but you get my drift...

[Legod Third Coming]

Great post LDH Watched every game so far and don't think overall we have played that badly considering the quality of the oppostion. We have created good chances and scored against some of the best teams in England and Europe. Most problems imo have been created by mistakes in midfield, some at the moment tbh seem to be struggling with the new formation but even after the crap results we have had we are still not in the bottom 3!! Many posters on here seem to think we should have bought a whole new team in the summer but it hasn't done QR ha ha ha ha much good as yet. Last seasons squad at least deserved a chance surely? We will learn and improve and I am sure will strengthen where neccessary in January plus we still have Corky/Lee/Spiderman/Jos to come back in in the next few weeks. COYR Sing yer hearts out for the lads!!

 

Exactly. It is a good team, playing the right way and learning (as is the manager). I am bemused that people expected more from four of the five games we have lost.

The only game we should have won 'on paper' was Wigan.

 

Our formation is no different to the other top sides in Europe. Our style of play is no different.

The difference is we don't yet have a dozen international class players, but as players learn how to adapt we will improve. (We will still lose even then).

And where there are defeciences in the playing talent, we'll buy/breed new/better players...

One thing's for sure, the Chairman did not get promoted only to get relegated again.

Adkins will make mistakes. People have top deal with that. He has had SIX games in the top league in Europe.

So either he will learn and improve or be fired.

My money is on the former.

But the fact remains, our plan might have worked at Everton. The fact it didn't doesn't mean it had anything to do with Adkins' tactics.

[Wade Garrett]

That is a question that is hard to answer. Sort of like "What is the meaning of life?"

 

Joking apart, I find it hard to criticise him for tactical mistakes as long as he learns from them. How does anyone ever learn if they don't make any mistakes? Fergie has made plenty in the past, and still does.

 

I remember some vague story about Richard Branson. An employee made a mistake that cost one of his companies a lot of money. When he was asked whether or not the employee should be sacked, he responded "Are you joking? Why would I want to sack somebody with millions of pounds worth of experience?" Not sure if the story is true, my recollection of it is fairly vague, but you get my drift...

 

I would agree with you. But his defiant interview on South Today suggests to me that he thinks he is doing things right.

 

I hope he is. We'll find out on Sunday.

[david in sweden]

BINGO - apparently being beaten by Everton is tactical failing...

Here are Everton's home Premiership results working backwards in 2012: 3-1, 2-2, 1-0, 5-0, 3-1, 4-0,4-0, 2-0, 0-1 (Arsenal), 1-0, 2-0, 2-0, 1-0, 1-1, 1-2 (Bolton),...

So during those games (which include United twice, Citeh, and Chelsea), Everton have been beaten precisely twice at home - once by Arsenal and once by Bolton.

But new boys in the league should have won but for tactics? This place is fecking mental some times.

 

 

Thanks for that LTC-----good point well made. If only ......it could have been written on the first day .....it would have saved 200+ nonsensical posts on the subject!

[Norm]

Thanks for that LTC-----good point well made. If only ......it could have been written on the first day .....it would have saved 200+ nonsensical posts on the subject!

 

 

What! And deprive the vast majority of us a good read? (and chuckle at the masterminds on here)

[Dig Dig]

Yes, but that was a tad different, we were playing a CM out right midfield. Schneiderlin is never going to be a very good right midfielder.

 

We need a link between the holding midfielders and the forward players. Having three midfielders holding against Utd nearly worked but the front three have to put a hell of a lot work in just to link up with them effectively. It's just not sustainable IMO.

 

4 2 3 1 is the way forwards IMO.

[tajjuk]

What is truly mental is you trying to put words in other people's mouths; and saying that had we just changed the tactics we would have won, and not lost. As far as I can make out no-one is suggesting that, are they? Unless I've missed it. Most people seem to simply be suggesting that a more robust and slightly more defensive setup may have been a better idea for that particular game, and would have perhaps not left the team so exposed as playing 4 forwards clearly did.

 

Who exactly would you have played? I don't see the benefit of leaving your best players on the bench for no particular reason except we might look a little more defensive. We were without two of our better central midfielders, Puncheon was injured. Changes were enforced on NA and he had to re-shuffle the team the best he could. I'm pretty certain had either cork or morgan been fit they would have played in a midfield 3 and we might have lined up like we did at Man City and tied to hit Everton on the break. We didn't have the personnel for it so he tried something different and it almost worked, we were hardly thrashed, caught Everton by surprise and could have been 2-0 in the first half. Even going 1-0 up against teams in not as much form might have been enough to have gotten something out of the game, sadly Everton are playing so well and are full of confidence so responded, Everton say in 2011 might not have done.

 

Every home team expects to win their home games, all the home fans expect to win and people expect the away team to come and defend (unless they are vastly better) sometimes it pays off to be a bit different and unexpected. Attacking and going 1-0 up away form home is a great way to unsettle the home team and put them under pressure.

[The Kraken]

Who exactly would you have played? I don't see the benefit of leaving your best players on the bench for no particular reason except we might look a little more defensive. We were without two of our better central midfielders, Puncheon was injured. Changes were enforced on NA and he had to re-shuffle the team the best he could. I'm pretty certain had either cork or morgan been fit they would have played in a midfield 3 and we might have lined up like we did at Man City and tied to hit Everton on the break. We didn't have the personnel for it so he tried something different and it almost worked, we were hardly thrashed, caught Everton by surprise and could have been 2-0 in the first half. Even going 1-0 up against teams in not as much form might have been enough to have gotten something out of the game, sadly Everton are playing so well and are full of confidence so responded, Everton say in 2011 might not have done.

 

Every home team expects to win their home games, all the home fans expect to win and people expect the away team to come and defend (unless they are vastly better) sometimes it pays off to be a bit different and unexpected. Attacking and going 1-0 up away form home is a great way to unsettle the home team and put them under pressure.

 

I've already mentioned various times what I thought our problem was. We played two strikers in Lambert and Rodriguez and two other attackers in Lallana and Ramirez. 4 attacking players, away from home, against one of the form sides of the division. Naive. Just because our best (and most expensive) players are all attackers, it doesn't necessarily follow that they should all play at the same time.

 

In away games against the PL's best sides, I've previously made the point that I think there's an argument to be made in playing only one of Ramirez and Lallana. Given that Lallana is now skipper and Ramirez is the £12M man I accept it'll likely never happen, nonetheless I still maintain it should be a realistic option. Against Man City, particularly Arsenal and now Everton our full backs were exposed by a lack of support from midfield; so I'd look to strengthen in those areas. Our options were indeed slightly more limited with injuries; but as has been suggested by others I perhaps would have gone with Chalpow at RM instead of Rodriguez. On the left hand side, it wouldn't have happened of course as I don't think we have the personnel to play a tight 4-5-1 and Lallana won't get dropped; but I'd consider whether someone like Ryan Dickson could do a job there. Against lesser ranked sides there's more of an argument to line up more offensively, but against the sides we've played so far I think we've committed suicide a little with a cavalier line-up.

 

Away against the better sides (where we'll naturally be more defensive than offensive) I think playing Lallana and Rodriguez on either wing just plays into the opposition's hands. At home I think there's a much better chance that playing 4-3-3 will work in our favour; as I've said before I hope we do that against Fulham with Mayuka instead of Rodriguez. Playing away from home is a different concept and we can't just assume that our regular attacking line-up is going to work out for us.

[SaintRichmond]

BINGO - apparently being beaten by Everton is tactical failing...

 

Here are Everton's home Premiership results working backwards in 2012:

 

3-1, 2-2, 1-0, 5-0, 3-1, 4-0,4-0, 2-0, 0-1 (Arsenal), 1-0, 2-0, 2-0, 1-0, 1-1, 1-2 (Bolton),...

 

So during those games (which include United twice, Citeh, and Chelsea), Everton have been beaten precisely twice at home - once by Arsenal and once by Bolton.

 

But new boys in the league should have won but for tactics?

This place is fecking mental some times.

 

I don't think many "neutrals" would have put us down for an away win v Everton

 

It is not the fact that we LOST against them that should concern Adkins, it is the MANNER in which we lost

 

In short, we lost because we gave away SOFT goals, with the "Defence" showing a naivity that local Sunday League teams would wince at

 

The final disturbing thing for me is Adkins apparent "Gung Ho" stance as to how HIS Team will continue to (Try) to play

 

Before we all get on the backs of our players, we should all remember that they go on the pitch to play to THE MANAGERS INSTRUCTIONS

 

Those "Instructions" are clearly NOT working, and I have come to the conclusion that Adkins is so arrogant that HIS method is best is going to result in many more defeats

 

In the Prem, an away DRAW is a good result. but Adkins hasn't got a clue about how to go about getting one

 

Although I don't like him, Alladyce is/will ensure West Ham stay in the Prem. I'm not saying it's pretty to watch, but from a Prem Big Business point of view IT WORKS

 

I wonder what Cortese wants ?? Great attacking 3-4 defeats ?? Or Prem survival ??

[laughing now]

Before we all get on the backs of our players, we should all remember that they go on the pitch to play to THE MANAGERS INSTRUCTIONS

 

Those "Instructions" are clearly NOT working, and I have come to the conclusion that Adkins is so arrogant that HIS method is best is going to result in many more defeats

 

In the Prem, an away DRAW is a good result. but Adkins hasn't got a clue about how to go about getting one

 

 

Yes, that's it; NA should amend his instructions to score two goals and keep a clean sheet for home games, and get a draw for away games. There, sorted.

 

 

btw SHOUTING doesn't make your point more "relevant" or "factual"

[Charlie Wayman]

What a stupid thread. Based on whose opinion exactly, yours? I think he might know a bit more about tactics than any of the critics on here

[SaintRichmond]

Yes, that's it; NA should amend his instructions to score two goals and keep a clean sheet for home games, and get a draw for away games. There, sorted.

 

 

btw SHOUTING doesn't make your point more "relevant" or "factual"

 

 

I'm not shouting

[tajjuk]

I've already mentioned various times what I thought our problem was. We played two strikers in Lambert and Rodriguez and two other attackers in Lallana and Ramirez. 4 attacking players, away from home, against one of the form sides of the division. Naive. Just because our best (and most expensive) players are all attackers, it doesn't necessarily follow that they should all play at the same time.

 

In away games against the PL's best sides, I've previously made the point that I think there's an argument to be made in playing only one of Ramirez and Lallana. Given that Lallana is now skipper and Ramirez is the £12M man I accept it'll likely never happen, nonetheless I still maintain it should be a realistic option. Against Man City, particularly Arsenal and now Everton our full backs were exposed by a lack of support from midfield; so I'd look to strengthen in those areas. Our options were indeed slightly more limited with injuries; but as has been suggested by others I perhaps would have gone with Chalpow at RM instead of Rodriguez. On the left hand side, it wouldn't have happened of course as I don't think we have the personnel to play a tight 4-5-1 and Lallana won't get dropped; but I'd consider whether someone like Ryan Dickson could do a job there. Against lesser ranked sides there's more of an argument to line up more offensively, but against the sides we've played so far I think we've committed suicide a little with a cavalier line-up.

 

Away against the better sides (where we'll naturally be more defensive than offensive) I think playing Lallana and Rodriguez on either wing just plays into the opposition's hands. At home I think there's a much better chance that playing 4-3-3 will work in our favour; as I've said before I hope we do that against Fulham with Mayuka instead of Rodriguez. Playing away from home is a different concept and we can't just assume that our regular attacking line-up is going to work out for us.

 

I agree on the first point. I highlighted the fact against Arsenal that neither wide men were tracking their runners, particularly Puncheon and this led to goals. Happened in all the games so far.

 

However I disagree the solution is to put in considerably worse players, Chaplow and particularly Dickson weren't considered good enough for the championship (and rightly so). I doubt when Cork is fit Chaplow will make the bench. I don't see the point in throwing on below par players in the hope they might 'do a job'.

 

We had injuries, we don't have the big a squad (or at least that much quality in depth). Adkins put the best team out he could, and decided that based on the players we had the best way was to be positive. It almost worked, we were hardly thrashed, took the lead and could have been 2-0 up, from there who knows. I don't see as 'naive', I see that as a manager choosing a formation and tactics that suits the best players you have, for me that is always a better option than putting in lesser players to fit a formation or tactic, if we had some players who were close to the quality of Lallana and Ramirez in the squad that would do a better defensive job then yes, but not players who are well below them ability.

 

NA just needs to get the wide men to do their defensive side of their jobs better, which I am sure he will be talking to them about. They watch the videos, they know hoe they conceded goals, I'm sure Lallana (especially as Captain) won;t sit there watching Everton's third and think that he's there as an attacker so what does it matter how he defends. Fact is modern wide players need to be able to track back and be better defensively as much as modern full backs have to be good going forward, I'm sure that Lallana will be working on it to get better. Just as I'm Ramirez is aware of it as well (I'm pretty sure before we bought him it was mentioned in reports that early on for bologna he didn't track back but it was something he had got better at).

[The Kraken]

You're still asking players to do a job alien to them. You imply that Chaplow is a considerably worse player than Jay Rodriguez. He's a worse striker than Rodriguez, that's for sure. But Chaplow is a better defensive midfielder, which is why I suggested him for that role. It's not without precedent. You probably wouldn't argue that, in our PL days, Fabrice Fernandes was a better player than Paul Telfer. Yet Fernandes was dropped for the cup final because the manager wanted to play a system that was a lot tighter than the one that got thrashed a few days before.

 

The idea that we have a "first XI" is a nonsense. It's a squad game, we'll use different players and different formations. And right now, with the options we have available, against Everton I thought that Chaplow was a better option at RM than Rodriguez.

[tajjuk]

You're still asking players to do a job alien to them. You imply that Chaplow is a considerably worse player than Jay Rodriguez. He's a worse striker than Rodriguez, that's for sure. But Chaplow is a better defensive midfielder, which is why I suggested him for that role. It's not without precedent. You probably wouldn't argue that, in our PL days, Fabrice Fernandes was a better player than Paul Telfer. Yet Fernandes was dropped for the cup final because the manager wanted to play a system that was a lot tighter than the one that got thrashed a few days before.

 

The idea that we have a "first XI" is a nonsense. It's a squad game, we'll use different players and different formations. And right now, with the options we have available, against Everton I thought that Chaplow was a better option at RM than Rodriguez.

 

For starters Chaplow is not a defensive midfielder, he's played right wing for us or as an attacking midfielder, he's an attack minded player yet people here seem to think he's the white claude makele. He's also considerably worse full stop, I also think that Rodriguez has done pretty well defensively when he played wide left.

 

Your not asking them to do something that is "alien" to them, you are asking them to track runners. Lallana has been playing left wing for us in a 4-4-2 all last year he should know that he has defensive duties, same thing was obviously drilled into Ramirez at Bologna, every modern day midfielder knows he has defensive duties, even Lambert has defensive duties.

 

Also that cup final worked out really well for us didn't it?

[The Kraken]

For starters Chaplow is not a defensive midfielder, he's played right wing for us or as an attacking midfielder, he's an attack minded player yet people here seem to think he's the white claude makele. He's also considerably worse full stop, I also think that Rodriguez has done pretty well defensively when he played wide left.

 

Your not asking them to do something that is "alien" to them, you are asking them to track runners. Lallana has been playing left wing for us in a 4-4-2 all last year he should know that he has defensive duties, same thing was obviously drilled into Ramirez at Bologna, every modern day midfielder knows he has defensive duties, even Lambert has defensive duties.

 

Also that cup final worked out really well for us didn't it?

 

The cup final worked better than the lineup that got 6 goals smashed past it 4 days previous, yes . I know some people have got a rose-tinted view of Saints that its better to go out and try to attack and if we lose by 3 or 4 goals that's better than a narrow 1-0 defeat. I don't share that view.

 

Who is describing Chaplow as the white Makalele? can you show me one quote where someone has said that? Or are you making it up? Against top sides away from home I'm suggesting there may be an argument to be made playing a more defensive midfielder than a striker at RM. If you think that's wrong, you carry on.

 

And Lallana's role this season is entirely different to any he's had to play before. He's been able to be a flair, attacking player in one of the strongest teams in the division for 3 years. He's previously been released from the defensive shackles of a traditional wide midfielder because our team has often enjoyed the majority of posession and balance of play. That's not the case now; in away games we'll now be defending much more than attacking (at one point Man City had over 80% of posession against us); so to not set ourselves up to counter that is barmy IMO.

[Dig Dig]

The cup final worked better than the lineup that got 6 goals smashed past it 4 days previous, yes . I know some people have got a rose-tinted view of Saints that its better to go out and try to attack and if we lose by 3 or 4 goals that's better than a narrow 1-0 defeat. I don't share that view.

 

Who is describing Chaplow as the white Makalele? can you show me one quote where someone has said that? Or are you making it up? Against top sides away from home I'm suggesting there may be an argument to be made playing a more defensive midfielder than a striker at RM. If you think that's wrong, you carry on.

 

And Lallana's role this season is entirely different to any he's had to play before. He's been able to be a flair, attacking player in one of the strongest teams in the division for 3 years. He's previously been released from the defensive shackles of a traditional wide midfielder because our team has often enjoyed the majority of posession and balance of play. That's not the case now; in away games we'll now be defending much more than attacking (at one point Man City had over 80% of posession against us); so to not set ourselves up to counter that is barmy IMO.

 

The thing, the only suggestion I've seen as to what Adkins could have done different is to start Chaplow. IMO, it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference. Chaplow is a poor player to have in the middle and the pace of the premier league would have showed up his poor touch and passing even more. The only thing which could have made a difference was to have Puncheon, Cork and Morgan available for selection.

[The Kraken]

The thing, the only suggestion I've seen as to what Adkins could have done different is to start Chaplow. IMO, it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference. Chaplow is a poor player to have in the middle and the pace of the premier league would have showed up his poor touch and passing even more. The only thing which could have made a difference was to have Puncheon, Cork and Morgan available for selection.

 

As you say, your opinion. Chaplow wouldn't have been in the middle; I'm advocating his selection wide right, instead of Rodriguez.

 

If Puncheon was not available, why was he on the bench by the way?

 

Other suggestions that have been put forward (not just by myself) include not playing Lallana and Ramirez plus 2 strikers away to sides in the top 6. Yes, options were limited, but I've seen suggestions including Yoshida being played at CM, and Guly was on the bench. So its wrong to say there's been no other suggestions.

[Chez]

I think we've really missed Cork this season. With him and Schneiderlin missing we really struggle to protect the back 4.

 

I like Cork, but isn't this just a case of a player getting better every game he's not playing and we aren't winning? He couldn't get in the side towards the end of last season and didn't provide a great deal of protection for the back four in games like Leeds away for example. Obviously its better to have the option, but I don;t see his return to fitness as being the catalyst to a change in our fortune.

[The Kraken]

I like Cork, but isn't this just a case of a player getting better every game he's not playing and we aren't winning? He couldn't get in the side towards the end of last season and didn't provide a great deal of protection for the back four in games like Leeds away for example. Obviously its better to have the option, but I don;t see his return to fitness as being the catalyst to a change in our fortune.

 

I think he'd have given us some decent options, and some good backup for the midfield that we're now clearly lacking. JWP is a great prospect but its really not fair hoisting such expectations onto a 17 year old who still has single figures of league games under his belt. And I think having Cork MAY have meant we could done something different for example in the Man United game to shut it down, rather than bringing on 2 strikers in Rodriguez and Mayuka (plus Guly for Lambert).

[Chez]

I'd stick with 4-2-3-1 at home as it worked well against Villa. Away and trying make best use of what we've got I'd got 4-5-1 which becomes 4-3-2-1 when we are attacking. I'd start with Davis and Cork LM and RM playing in a chris Marsden type role with their main job to be to be solid down the flanks and tuck inside to form a solid midfield 3 covering for the full backs when they get forward. Scniiderlin playing in front of the back 4 and Lallana and Ramirez in front of him who will be responsible for closing space down and them linking up with Lambert as an attacking 3 when going forward. Those 3 wil cause most teams problems and good enough to create 2-3 good chances a game minimum. It's then down to us to be solid and not Give away sloppy goals so we don't have to score 4 to win.

 

If everyone is fit then NC, JF, MY, DF as the back 4 JC, MS, SD, GR and AL are the midfield 5, with RL up top, as things stand with injuries and due to a bungled transfer window then I guess we are left with JWP and RC in the midfield roles instead of MS and JC. It's Alright though, we've got 2 strikers worth £10m on the bench who can't get near the team and least we can all blame Danny Fox again.

 

Interesting to read your opinion rather than posts dissecting others.

 

I have to say I agree with the home formation and certainly away from home I think we need a return to having a left and right midfielder who are willing to work up and down the pitch and not be wingers. Away from home this would be as pat of a 5, we're not good enough individually or collectively to go 4-4-2, but I wouldn't go for three central midfielders covering across the park as you suggested.

 

IMO the left and right sides would have to be left and right sided players not Cork and Davis as you suggested. The issue is who we play in those wide roles. Chaplow was effective down the left last season and could so a similar job down the right. He was excellent out there against Palace I recall on return from injury. Lallana perhaps could do the left side job, but I've never thought he was up to much defensively and the third goal at Everton typifies where he is let down by a lack of pace, poor starting position and a tendency to focus on attack rather than defence. He tries, but he's not the right person to do an rigid up and down job. He'd have to reign back on his attacking tendencies and we'd be wasting his talent. What choice is there?

 

Our injury problems in the centre mean JWP and Davis are our only options right now. That leaves one slot for Lallana or Ramirez.

[Window Cleaner]

That leaves one slot for Lallana or Ramirez.

 

 

Trouble is that they will both play every match for which they are fit much to the detriment of the defensive sector.We have 2 playmakers and are missing a water carrier.

[Saint Garrett]

Ramirez is our link between teh holding midfielders and attack, as are the wide midfielders.

 

Also on Saturday we started with Rodriguez playing RF and Lambert playing LF, with them both pretty much playing on Everton's RB and LB. It was a good game plan in theory and it left Ramirez to float, but those 2 players didnt do that job successfully for very much of the game, it worked for the first 25 minutes as I remember Lambert putting in a tackle in the LB postiion early on, but it wasn't natural to them. As long as we're learning we'll get there

[The Kraken]

Our injury problems in the centre mean JWP and Davis are our only options right now. That leaves one slot for Lallana or Ramirez.

 

Just as a short term measure, I'm wondering if there's a case for Butterfield being used in a defensive midfield role, even if its just from the bench. With Hammond gone, Chaplow not really that position and Cork and Morgan both injured we're desperately short of cover there, and if (God forbid) we lose either of JWP or Davis mid-game there's really no genuine replacement left.