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Addressing our main problem.


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Conceding goals!

 

Thats 18 in 6 games averaging at 3 per match. I know we've had some tough matches but you should do better.

 

We need a defence coach urgently, I saw that Arsenal have Steve Bould but they could of chosen Dixon, Adams & Winterburn that could do the role.

 

We have Dodd & Jaidi who could take the role, why not as its not just the goalie & 4 defenders that's our problem but the midfielders are not doing the covering role properly.

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One thing i've noticed in most games is we don t press thé opposition team enough. If you see thé top teams in this league once the opposition gets the ball they are in there like a shot whereas we tend to sit back a little

 

Agreed but I would say "a lot" rather than "a little" we seem to allow opposition players plenty of room to get up speed as they approach the defence.

also when we sit back (as we did after scoring yesterday) we invite constant pressure with no relief valve.

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18 goals conceded in just 6 games is a truly shocking stat even considering the quality of the opposition we've faced. As for coaching our way out of this mess, I'm sure NA and his team will be striving to do just that. However even if you can polish a turd the resulting shine is unlikely to be all that impressive. This game's all about players ultimately, and if our players can't learn quickly (or are not good enough anyway) to defend to the required standard as a unit, then no amount of coaching is going to change that fundamentally.

 

Perhaps Artur Boruc's belated introduction will make a difference, but until the transfer window reopens at least, I suspect we're likely to continue fielding one of the weakest defences in this division. So if we are to stay in the hunt until Xmas then we may have little choice but to try and score our way out of trouble.

 

Now I instinctively don't like that idea all that much - I recall Blackpool tried that and failed - but as we are hitting the net at twice the rate of the teams around us I suppose we still have some sort of chance.

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Conceding goals!

 

Thats 18 in 6 games averaging at 3 per match. I know we've had some tough matches but you should do better.

 

We need a defence coach urgently, I saw that Arsenal have Steve Bould but they could of chosen Dixon, Adams & Winterburn that could do the role.

 

We have Dodd & Jaidi who could take the role, why not as its not just the goalie & 4 defenders that's our problem but the midfielders are not doing the covering role properly.

 

 

Under WHOSE instructions does the Team go out on the field ??

 

No point in appointing a Defensive coach if the Managers philosophy is completely alien to it

 

Adkins is STILL clinging to the idea that we can score goals .... Well, he's right about that, but he STILL seems oblivious as to BUILDING A TEAM FROM THE BACK

 

I'm sick of his "our forwards did ever so well " comments. No point in scoring three if you let in four

 

Sorry, but if he does not change (or is forced to change) his Policy, he is leading us to Relegation

 

Being great for the last two seasons has nothing at all to do with what he is like NOW

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I only have the radio commentary to go on but Merrington was worried from the start at the amount of space we were conceding on the wings. His point was that if you set up narrow then the whole team have to move left or right quickly enough to shut the wings down and they simply were not doing that. My feeling was that, yesterday, the back four could not really be held to blame - more the set up and the failure of the modfield and front to shut the opposition down. I don't understand why you cannot be set up one way for attack and differently when you concede possession. IMHO, as good as JayRod is - he is not good in the wider role and puncheon should have been brought on at half time in his place. One positive thing that did emerge though was that half way through the second half JWP suddenly became the focus for everything good that we were doing. Perhaps he is getting his confidence up and will continue to improve.

Edited by St_Tel49
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I only have the radio commentary to go on but Merrington was worried from the start at the amount of space we were conceding on the wings. His point was that if you set up narrow then the whole team have to move left or right quickly enough to shut the wings down and they simply were not doing that. My feeling was that, yesterday, the back four could not really be held to blame - more the set up and the failure of the modfield and front to shut the opposition down. I don't understand why you cannot be set up one way for attack and differently when you concede possession. IMHO, as good as JayRod is - he is not good in the wider role and puncheon should have been brought on at half time in his place. One positive thing that did emerge though was that half way through the second half JWP suddenly became the focus for everything good that we were doing. Perhaps he is getting his confidence up and will continue to improve.

 

 

Puncheon is supposed to be injured in some way isn't he? Or is that just a rumour being circulated to explain him being dropped in favour of a 7 million £ misfit?

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One thing i've noticed in most games is we don t press thé opposition team enough. If you see thé top teams in this league once the opposition gets the ball they are in there like a shot whereas we tend to sit back a little

Very well spotted and very true. This is exaggerated

Even more when we drop deeper which we always do usually after we score!

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Under WHOSE instructions does the Team go out on the field ??

 

No point in appointing a Defensive coach if the Managers philosophy is completely alien to it

 

Adkins is STILL clinging to the idea that we can score goals .... Well, he's right about that, but he STILL seems oblivious as to BUILDING A TEAM FROM THE BACK

 

I'm sick of his "our forwards did ever so well " comments. No point in scoring three if you let in four

 

Sorry, but if he does not change (or is forced to change) his Policy, he is leading us to Relegation

 

Being great for the last two seasons has nothing at all to do with what he is like NOW

 

Good post Saint Richmond and sums up exactly the situation we find ourself in, I might add that I believe Atkins uses games he doesn't believe we can win to give players a run and experiment instead of putting out the strongest players and tempting to win,

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Perhaps Artur Boruc's belated introduction will make a difference, but until the transfer window reopens at least, I suspect we're likely to continue fielding one of the weakest defences in this division.

So if we are to stay in the hunt until Xmas then we may have little choice but to try and score our way out of trouble. QUOTE]

 

 

 

I think most of us would agree with that .......UNLESS.........our world-wide scouting team can find an tough, experienced S.O.B who's built like a brick outhouse and can stop anyone who comes his way...

...and who happens to be OOC. That might shore up things at the back.

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Puncheon is supposed to be injured in some way isn't he? Or is that just a rumour being circulated to explain him being dropped in favour of a 7 million £ misfit?

 

of course JP may well be injured, but now that JayRod has started to score... at last , it would be a downer to his confidence NOT to have played him, however all things considered, I'd like to have seen a bit more muscle in midfield . Pity that JWP has started off his career in a side that gets beaten almost every game.....hopefully it'll be better when Jack Cork (and Schneiderlin) return.

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of course JP may well be injured, but now that JayRod has started to score... at last , it would be a downer to his confidence NOT to have played him, however all things considered, I'd like to have seen a bit more muscle in midfield . Pity that JWP has started off his career in a side that gets beaten almost every game.....hopefully it'll be better when Jack Cork (and Schneiderlin) return.

 

So no correlation between the two?

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Time to increase the average age, height and strength of the team, it has been said and we have seen it in front of us not too long ago, you cannot win with kids.

 

Time to be a bit more boring.

 

Time to park the bus a) when it suits and b) check the tachometer, driver hasnt got too tired, (as its been bombing along in the outside lane for a while now), tyre pressure, need a spare?

 

or, no, sod it, just sit back and enjoy the ride, even if it is a scary roller coaster!!

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Chaplow's tweet after game

 

"Nice to be on the pitch albeit for a short time and on the end of defeat, tough place to go tho Goodison,home games will be key this season!"

 

To me this is a defeatist attitude about playing away from home and alarmingly chaplow may well be echoing the overall thoughts with in the club due to our gung ho approach and tactics. It seems the mindset is away games are just for bonus points and home games is the priority.

 

I hope the adkins and the lads prove me wrong but at the moment the team shape and tactics is all wrong and the oppo are duly exploiting these glaring weaknesses. we need to build from the back and learn to contain teams rather than fold at a sniff of pressure.

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Conceding goals!

 

Thats 18 in 6 games averaging at 3 per match. I know we've had some tough matches but you should do better.

 

We need a defence coach urgently, I saw that Arsenal have Steve Bould but they could of chosen Dixon, Adams & Winterburn that could do the role.

 

We have Dodd & Jaidi who could take the role, why not as its not just the goalie & 4 defenders that's our problem but the midfielders are not doing the covering role properly.

 

 

I agree with all that logic......but if midfielders get turned into extra defenders, then we get end up getting pushed back into our own penalty area for most of the match.

 

Everyone comes back to defend set pieces and corners, but we must score goals - if we are to win any games at all.

Edited by david in sweden
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Chaplow's tweet after game

 

"Nice to be on the pitch albeit for a short time and on the end of defeat, tough place to go tho Goodison,home games will be key this season!"

 

To me this is a defeatist attitude about playing away from home and alarmingly chaplow may well be echoing the overall thoughts with in the club due to our gung ho approach and tactics.

It seems the mindset is away games are just for bonus points and home games is the priority.

 

I hope the adkins and the lads prove me wrong but at the moment the team shape and tactics is all wrong and the oppo are duly exploiting these glaring weaknesses.

we need to build from the back and learn to contain teams rather than fold at a sniff of pressure.

 

 

well I think this is common sense....and he isn't wrong. There's nothing wrong with admitting that. Did you expect a lot of bu**-sh*t like blah, blah, ....we should have won ?

Everton, Arsenal and Man. City have the best home records in the Prem. based on 2012 games ..and we haven't won there in donkey's years.....and many times come away with a much worse scoreline.

 

I'm sure no-one thinks it's waste of time to try and win at these grounds. Adkins post match comments were; we need to concentrate on getting wins at home as " we might only get 4 wins away this season".

Absolutely right!.. but if we have the mindset of going to win every game ...we may well get those 4 wins .and perhaps even more.

 

This is the Prem. - and this team are new to it. Let's not complain every time we lose an away game to such opposition.

Edited by david in sweden
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WHO?

 

The key word being 'successful'. So who? The likes of Dann, Johnson and countless others with experience were sh1te and would leave us with just as poor a defensive record and less money in the bank. There wasn't one person against signing decent experience, just a lot not wanting 'experience for the sake of experience', rather than quality. Seems like you're just trying to create an argument on a point everyone agreed on.

 

Hangalaand was suggested by someone and one other but I forget the name of

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Conceding goals!

 

Thats 18 in 6 games averaging at 3 per match. I know we've had some tough matches but you should do better.

 

We need a defence coach urgently, I saw that Arsenal have Steve Bould but they could of chosen Dixon, Adams & Winterburn that could do the role.

 

We have Dodd & Jaidi who could take the role, why not as its not just the goalie & 4 defenders that's our problem but the midfielders are not doing the covering role properly.

 

Don't know what Quality's Jaidi has, but I've never rated Dodd (other than a player)

 

In the past I know he has been a disruptive "influence"

 

If we are to go down the road of a "Defensive Co-ordinator" then get a recognised person who has proven ability in the role

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Hangalaand was suggested by someone and one other but I forget the name of

 

Would have been well chuffed with Hangaland, club captain and linch pin of Fulham's defence. Considering he was the focus of an Arsenal of £12m bid which was rebuffed a few seasons ago. How much do you think he would have come here for (assuming he wanted to move)?

 

Like Adrain said experience for the sake of experience is not what is wanted.

 

As for the team, they need to learn quickly that all the players have defensive duties when the team don't have the ball and need to work as a unit of when to press and not. We missed Schneiderlin on Saturday with his running and interceptions but the team cannot rely on one player.

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Would have been well chuffed with Hangaland, club captain and linch pin of Fulham's defence. Considering he was the focus of an Arsenal of £12m bid which was rebuffed a few seasons ago. How much do you think he would have come here for (assuming he wanted to move)?

 

Like Adrain said experience for the sake of experience is not what is wanted.

 

As for the team, they need to learn quickly that all the players have defensive duties when the team don't have the ball and need to work as a unit of when to press and not. We missed Schneiderlin on Saturday with his running and interceptions but the team cannot rely on one player.

 

No idea but we splashed out big for Ramirez when our need at the back was far greater. Hangaland was just one example though.

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To be frank, I thought our goal difference would be far worse than it is right now. Yes our defence is a problem, but we came away from both Manchester games with only a -1 goal difference and that's better than I could have dreamed. Indeed we could've won both games with a better defence (which we all agree we need). This shows the strength of our attacking outlets, and the reason I think we're better than most of the lower league sides in the division. (All of whom will have their own defensive problems eventually, and some of whom haven't even played the Manchesters. 6 of our fifteen goals came against the most creative team in the division too, which warps the statistic. It's far from panic stations, the phrase "keeping our heads above water in January" is very true, and I definitely think we'll do that based on a strong attacking side to our game.

 

The defence will be sorted out in January, of that I have no doubt, so until then let's just watch Lallana, Ramirez and Lambert (and Mayuka, JRod and Punch) rip teams a new one, while hoping we solidify a tad at the back. After all, there's not a thing any of us can do to help the defence, short of pulling on a pair of boots and offering our services. (THey wouldn't want me though...)

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To be frank, I thought our goal difference would be far worse than it is right now. Yes our defence is a problem, but we came away from both Manchester games with only a -1 goal difference and that's better than I could have dreamed. Indeed we could've won both games with a better defence (which we all agree we need). This shows the strength of our attacking outlets, and the reason I think we're better than most of the lower league sides in the division. (All of whom will have their own defensive problems eventually, and some of whom haven't even played the Manchesters. 6 of our fifteen goals came against the most creative team in the division too, which warps the statistic. It's far from panic stations, the phrase "keeping our heads above water in January" is very true, and I definitely think we'll do that based on a strong attacking side to our game.

 

The defence will be sorted out in January, of that I have no doubt, so until then let's just watch Lallana, Ramirez and Lambert (and Mayuka, JRod and Punch) rip teams a new one, while hoping we solidify a tad at the back. After all, there's not a thing any of us can do to help the defence, short of pulling on a pair of boots and offering our services. (THey wouldn't want me though...)

 

What makes you think that ??

 

Ask yourself this. If we are firm;ly in the bottom three come January, what QUALITY player is going to want to come to us ??

 

Answer NO-ONE

 

QUALITY players go to SUCCESSFUL Teams. At present, we are NOT a successful Team, we are a struggling fledgeling Premiership one

 

Proper Defence Building should have been completed in the Pre Season break

 

It wasn't, and we are now having to live with that FATAL error IMHO

A

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we are now having to live with that FATAL error IMHO

 

You'd make a good doctor homes. What's that? You've got a cough? Yeah that's terminal. Hello Doctor Richmond can I help you? Oh your foot hurts? Yeah that's fatal. Nothing that can be done bout it now. No point throwing good drugs on a lost cause, you should of thought of that before you went skiing or whatever.

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You'd make a good doctor homes. What's that? You've got a cough? Yeah that's terminal. Hello Doctor Richmond can I help you? Oh your foot hurts? Yeah that's fatal. Nothing that can be done bout it now. No point throwing good drugs on a lost cause, you should of thought of that before you went skiing or whatever.

 

 

So, we'll discuss at the end of the January window then ?? ..... Meantime, clean those Red n White tinted glasses eh ?

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Oh we can discuss it when you like, I ain't bothered bout discussing stuff. I just think we're different cos you is saying there's no brain activity so turn off the life support. I'm saying we're diagnosed with ball cancer and we're gonna try the homeopahic remedies and if that ain't working a bit of chemo in January.

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I think the problem is the midfielders not providing cover for the full backs and leaving them exposed. This is more like an arm injury. Bearsy is going to chop off a bollock and then rub the area with evening primrose oil to fix a broken wrist and Richmond is going to kill him. I don't know who is worse but I wouldn't let either of them do a circumcision.

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its the shape of the whole team....not just the defence..

don't care who you are..when the wings are mightily exposed an the middle of the park allow players to run through, you get what you deserve..

 

and at the mo. we are letting in goals enough to be down...simple as that

 

That's pretty much it. It's lazy just to blame the CB's, the ease in which Everton players ran at our back 4 on Saturday was slightly alarming and it does kind of spring up question marks about our lack of cover @ CM.

 

I spoke to someone today who said that if we want to attack and play football as we are, then we'll always give the opposition chances. I don't think that's true. I look at the likes of Bilbao as an example from last season, when they didn't have the ball they worked their arses off to pressure and get that ball back.

 

But it all boils down to ball retention, if we keep hold of the ball then they're less likely to have chances...! And then when we do need to pressure them, we'll have more energy, as it can be seriously sapping to be out on the field chasing the ball for 90 mins.

 

I think we've been sloppy on the ball at times this season and we've given it back way too easily, now if we can really retain it then we'll concede less goals. Sounds simple...! But it always requires a bit of patience from the stands. When we've retained the ball previously and have gone back to the GK, and to the CB's etc then all I hear are moans, and groans ''GET IT UP'' etc. Why? What will that achieve? Nothing half the time, other than the ball being headed away and picked up by the oppo...but at the end of the day, when we do pass it backwards the opposition haven't got it and they can't score.

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The whole team doesn't look particularly organised when we are defending.

 

More holes on the pitch than Swiss cheese.

 

I reckon we need to be better drilled on the training pitch.

 

 

I think it also has somehting to do with the slightly more sophisicated style of play in the Prem. After the last two seasons of rolling over the opposition... it'll take a little time to adjust.

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On Talksport last night they said that if you took the calender year of 2012, then Everton would be third in the table behind Man Utd, Man City,and just above Arsenal .

 

Notice anything about those teams?

 

If Fulham, Stoke, Sunderland & WBA had our fixtures, how many points do you think they'd have. Yet none of those teams are expected to face a relegation battle.

 

Look at Swansea, in September they have lost to Villa, Everton and Stoke, and drawn with Sunderland.In the same period we had Arsenal and Everton away and Man Utd at home. Only Villa was really winnable, which we did (the same shiete Villa that Swansea lost to). Norwich have let 5 in against Liverpool and Fulham and are yet to face any of the Manchester clubs or Arsenal.Readings fixyures have been easier than ours, yet they are yet to win.

 

If we were in a mini league with Swansea, Norwich, QPR, Reading,do their back 4 look any better than ours? I'd back our fire power to outscore them every time.

 

To come out of Sept out of the bottom 3 is a bonus as far as I'm concerned.

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On Talksport last night they said that if you took the calender year of 2012, then Everton would be third in the table behind Man Utd, Man City,and just above Arsenal .

 

Notice anything about those teams?

 

If Fulham, Stoke, Sunderland & WBA had our fixtures, how many points do you think they'd have. Yet none of those teams are expected to face a relegation battle.

 

Look at Swansea, in September they have lost to Villa, Everton and Stoke, and drawn with Sunderland.In the same period we had Arsenal and Everton away and Man Utd at home. Only Villa was really winnable, which we did (the same shiete Villa that Swansea lost to). Norwich have let 5 in against Liverpool and Fulham and are yet to face any of the Manchester clubs or Arsenal.Readings fixyures have been easier than ours, yet they are yet to win.

 

If we were in a mini league with Swansea, Norwich, QPR, Reading,do their back 4 look any better than ours? I'd back our fire power to outscore them every time.

 

To come out of Sept out of the bottom 3 is a bonus as far as I'm concerned.

again..very fair points...i think it is safe to say..come 1st Dec...we will know for sure how good we are

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On Talksport last night they said that if you took the calender year of 2012, then Everton would be third in the table behind Man Utd, Man City,and just above Arsenal .

 

Notice anything about those teams?

 

If Fulham, Stoke, Sunderland & WBA had our fixtures, how many points do you think they'd have. Yet none of those teams are expected to face a relegation battle.

 

Look at Swansea, in September they have lost to Villa, Everton and Stoke, and drawn with Sunderland.In the same period we had Arsenal and Everton away and Man Utd at home. Only Villa was really winnable, which we did (the same shiete Villa that Swansea lost to). Norwich have let 5 in against Liverpool and Fulham and are yet to face any of the Manchester clubs or Arsenal.Readings fixyures have been easier than ours, yet they are yet to win.

 

If we were in a mini league with Swansea, Norwich, QPR, Reading,do their back 4 look any better than ours? I'd back our fire power to outscore them every time.

 

To come out of Sept out of the bottom 3 is a bonus as far as I'm concerned.

 

I agree with much of what you say. However, I do think Wigan at home was winnable. I know it was in August, but it's like your trying to pretend the game didn't happen.

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Conceding goals! Thats 18 in 6 games averaging at 3 per match. I know we've had some tough matches but you should do better.

We need a defence coach urgently, I saw that Arsenal have Steve Bould but they could of chosen Dixon, Adams & Winterburn that could do the role.

We have Dodd & Jaidi who could take the role, why not as its not just the goalie & 4 defenders that's our problem but the midfielders are not doing the covering role properly.

 

 

 

alternative answer number 3 ........it's not a problem. The real problem is ......we didn't score more than the other team.......

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There's not many that open up the Kevin Keegan guide to tactics and formations to follow the script as we seem to be doing. Keegans style of play changed the Premier for ever, showing that relying on home form and not losing away was just not good enough any more, but is it really winning football when you expose the defence to such a degree as Keegan did? Keegans players had the skill to go with the threat but even they never maximised their returns. History has shown us that time and time again that soaking up the pressure from these adventurous teams and hitting them on the break is always going to produce the best results. Unless you are Barca and have such an out standing advantage it just does not work over time.

 

Adkins theory that playing a continuous attacking style will give us that magic 4 away wins, then just combine that with some good home form does have some logic and merit before you start scratching the surface away. What we are accepting is a team that will always leak goals and if you put up enough fight in the first half to keep us out, you stand a very good chance in the second half of inflicting damage, if not already. Generally in the past if we go hell for leather from the start and start hitting the wall we tend to get easily picked off when the opponents have their turn. I would much prefer the cautious start where we feel out the opposition as to what is achievable and go for the result in the second half, whether that be draw or win. Forget about Keegans Newcastle, we will be more in line with Blackpool with less of a defence.

 

Adkins realises that he can't get enough out of our midfield to bolster a weak defence and provide the necessary attacking threat. The attacking style looks far easier on the eye and fans will be more forgiving, but at the end of the day it is not percentage football. Adkins must have chatted with Cortese and both being in agreement, otherwise I doubt Adkins would come out so bullish. The crunch is going to come against teams like Fulham, if we can't make it work against them, then it all comes down around our ears.

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well I think this is common sense....and he isn't wrong. There's nothing wrong with admitting that. Did you expect a lot of bu**-sh*t like blah, blah, ....we should have won ?

Everton, Arsenal and Man. City have the best home records in the Prem. based on 2012 games ..and we haven't won there in donkey's years.....and many times come away with a much worse scoreline.

 

Your right in that Everton, Arsenal and Man City are the hardest away games we could of started with based on 2012 form so it was always going to be a big ask to pick up any points and the fact we haven't done so shouldn't of been a surprise to anyone. Yes our weaknesses have been exposed in all 3 games but most other teams will suffer the same fate as us.

 

Our home form will be important but you can't rely on just that, you have to believe that you can go away from home and pick up points. Sadly Chaplow seems to have lost this belief already. Based on his tweet us fans shouldn't hold any hope in picking up points in any of the remaining away matches. Until we play the other mediocre teams away from home then he shouldn't tweet such negativity as gives out the wrong message.

 

I am just thankful Chaplow won't be featuring too often this season.

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