BNP membership leaked online.

[thesaint sfc]

yes of course.....the country is at exploding point...new not enough housing, new housing being built of flood plains..NHS at stretching point...positive descrimiation....etc

 

there have been good points but what is the harm in a far more controlled immigration service....NONE AT ALL

 

Agreed.

 

The country is in a recession IMO due mostly to benefits and the amount of money America (and us to an extent) have thrown at the war. Benefits drain this country of money - it is that which should be more controlled over immigration IMO. Lots of people wouldn't come here if we didn't have such an easy benefits system. Plenty of familes in Crawley (near where I live) have more and more kids every year just for a rise in their benefits. Total joke.

[GenevaSaint]

hmmm

why do i want to leave my country and go to another?

same goes for anyone else..

i wonder if I could pick up the same benefits in poland...what do you reckon..

 

But the cost of living would be cheaper. Ultimately the beef of most people is that immigrants get everything for free, that's just not the case. The second moan is that they're taking our jobs, as stated move to France, Germany, Spain tomorrow and take one of their jobs. After living in France for 3 years and commuting over the border to Geneva I too was an economic migrant, paying 15% tax instead of 40% on the same salary as in the UK. People's preconceptions about the French were totally wrong, they were most welcoming, friendly and helpful with my children learning French in school.

 

So dell days, I guess you're still in the forces. What if a migrant was to die for the UK in battle, would that be acceptable? Was it OK to use the commonwealth soldiers during the various wars we have fought? Are the Gurkhas OK to come to the UK? Is your issue only with benefits or with wider range of issues around immigration?

[Robsk II]

I don't dispute that immigration needs to be A) controlled and B) limited, though I'm sure this surprises you. it shouldn't if you read my posts!

 

The problem is that politics generally is reactive, not pro-active. It's often hard to predict things like this accurately because there are so many other factors like economic climate etc involved. It's like the lack of apprenticeships thing, lack of trades. Thatchers government did that, and at the time it was broadly the right thing to do for our economy on the global stage. In many ways, it's done us very well - but they should have been less sweeping, because it has led, twenty years later, to a vacuum in the trades areas - this has led to problems such as inflated tradesman prices - and, of course - resentment at immigrant tradesmen, who actually are often genuinely best placed to do those jobs now. I'd rather have a decent Polish plumber than a cowboy British lad. I'm not saying all Polish ones are good, far from it, but not a lot of young British tradesmen are that good these days for the above reasons.

[bridge too far]

Since time immemorial, people have migrated to other countries for economic reasons. Goodness, some nation states have even 'taken over' other countries for economic reasons (e.g. India, Africa).

 

It is a fundamental human right to be able to provide shelter, food and work for one's family and if ANY of us felt we could do better elsewhere we would do so. Sort of 'getting on our bikes' to quote Norman Tebbit (sp?).

 

Many people from this country choose to migrate to France, Spain etc. etc because they feel they will have a better quality of life there. They then proceed to take advantage of the benefits of that nation, often, in the case of Spain, to the point where they are taking (healthcare) without contributing to that country's health budget.

 

WTF then is so different to people from other countries wanting to live here? Wouldn't you do the best you could for your family?

[bridge too far]

Agreed.

 

The country is in a recession IMO due mostly to benefits and the amount of money America (and us to an extent) have thrown at the war. Benefits drain this country of money - it is that which should be more controlled over immigration IMO. Lots of people wouldn't come here if we didn't have such an easy benefits system. Plenty of familes in Crawley (near where I live) have more and more kids every year just for a rise in their benefits. Total joke.

 

Insupportable statement IMO. Children cost far more than they 'earn' in child benefit etc.

 

As any parent knows

[Robsk II]

The country is in a recession IMO due mostly to benefits and the amount of money America (and us to an extent) have thrown at the war. Benefits drain this country of money - it is that which should be more controlled over immigration IMO. Lots of people wouldn't come here if we didn't have such an easy benefits system. Plenty of familes in Crawley (near where I live) have more and more kids every year just for a rise in their benefits. Total joke.

 

Hmm, can't agree with that to be honest.

 

Still - overall, irresponsible benefits claims are certainly a drain on the economy. The thing is, the biggest problem, as said above, is not immigrants in this regard, far, far from it. The major issue is also not that it's easy - that's a good thing. It should be easy to claim for those that need it. The problem is always - always - primarily with the lying, workshy idiots who are happy and comfortable morally with abusing a system that should be a beacon for many in the world as a shining example of good governmental practice for the population. The welfare state is a wonderful concept, I truly believe that. Raising the status of the worst off is a most admirable goal. Thing is, it assumes people are basically decent - that they WANT to aspire, they WANT to improve their lot, they WANT to grasp opportunities. Yet the anti-culture cretins, and their worrying sub-culture, ruin it. Give it a bad name and do turn it into something of a blight. It's very hard to police it, though mistakes are made. If people like, people lie. That's the fault of people, not the government, not immigrants.

[Robsk II]

Insupportable statement IMO. Children cost far more than they 'earn' in child benefit etc.

 

I agree with the latter - however, I know, first hand, of examples where young people and mums are clearly under the misconception that having a kid to get money is literally a good - and normal - thing to do. It's worrying how people can be so dense. I have heard 15 year old young women saying, "If I have a baby, I'll get on the council housing list sooner.". It's shocking. The culture growing up in some places is more than a generation old now. it shouldn't be this way, BTF, but more people may believe it than you realise, alas.

[bridge too far]

Just the other day I was watching that Michael Moore film about the health service in the US (Sicko). A truly depressing film but one that made me so proud of the NHS and ashamed of the awful treatment that poor people get in the US.

 

But what did amaze me, and should perhaps shut up the people who moan about the level of benefits in this country, was the levels of benefit available to the French. Especially the benefits for parents - like totally free nursery / child care places up to the age of 5, lengthy maternity / paternity leave etc.

 

Perhaps we should all move to France

[bridge too far]

I agree with the latter - however, I know, first hand, of examples where young people and mums are clearly under the misconception that having a kid to get money is literally a good - and normal - thing to do. It's worrying how people can be so dense. I have heard 15 year old young women saying, "If I have a baby, I'll get on the council housing list sooner.". It's shocking. The culture growing up in some places is more than a generation old now. it shouldn't be this way, BTF, but more people may believe it than you realise, alas.

 

Rob, I'm an old cynic so I do realise.....

 

Would it be a cheap jibe to say that this culture had its roots in the 'there's no such thing as society' era of 15 years ago? After all, they're the parents now.

[Thedelldays]

Since time immemorial, people have migrated to other countries for economic reasons. Goodness, some nation states have even 'taken over' other countries for economic reasons (e.g. India, Africa).

 

It is a fundamental human right to be able to provide shelter, food and work for one's family and if ANY of us felt we could do better elsewhere we would do so. Sort of 'getting on our bikes' to quote Norman Tebbit (sp?).

 

Many people from this country choose to migrate to France, Spain etc. etc because they feel they will have a better quality of life there. They then proceed to take advantage of the benefits of that nation, often, in the case of Spain, to the point where they are taking (healthcare) without contributing to that country's health budget.

 

WTF then is so different to people from other countries wanting to live here? Wouldn't you do the best you could for your family?

 

many people in this country who move to france or spain etc are leaving with money nearly all of the time...they leave with enough money to look after themselves and contribute...

 

I wonder how many people leave the UK and 'sign-on' in france????

[bungle]

many people in this country who move to france or spain etc are leaving with money nearly all of the time...they leave with enough money to look after themselves and contribute...

 

I wonder how many people leave the UK and 'sign-on' in france????

 

But it is a well known fact that Brits emigrating to Spain are ruining their healthcare system. They are taking from it and not contributing a penny. It's not "signing-on", but it's the same difference.

[Thedelldays]

But it is a well known fact that Brits emigrating to Spain are ruining their healthcare system. They are taking from it and not contributing a penny. It's not "signing-on", but it's the same difference.

 

 

maybe we are all guilty in this union in letting people move too freely...maybe we should have adopted a more controlled method....

 

no harm in that...surely..?

[bridge too far]

many people in this country who move to france or spain etc are leaving with money nearly all of the time...they leave with enough money to look after themselves and contribute...

 

I wonder how many people leave the UK and 'sign-on' in france????

 

Not entirely true TDD. It has been well documented that Spain is experiencing a real crisis with the number of British pensioners flooding its Health Service. Many of them are now feeling the pinch along with the rest of us because the value of their pensions has decreased. And they're unable to sell up and move back 'home' because the value of property has decreased even more than it has in the UK.

[Robsk II]

What, not letting people move out of a country? See, now, whatever you want to say, I believe people should have a freedom to move in the world. I do see that as a human right, poo-poo it if you want.

[Thedelldays]

What, not letting people move out of a country? See, now, whatever you want to say, I believe people should have a freedom to move in the world. I do see that as a human right, poo-poo it if you want.

who said NOT letting people move out of a country?

i certainly did not...are you twisting things to suit your point.

 

why not say within the union.."hey, the UK is pretty full at the mo so please can you go to say...germany who is a bigger country with a bigger economy..or france etc...or maybe stay at home for another 2 years so the UK can take stock of where we are at.."

 

is that such a facist daily mail point of view...or a sensible one?

[bungle]

who said NOT letting people move out of a country?

i certainly did not...are you twisting things to suit your point.

 

why not say within the union.."hey, the UK is pretty full at the mo so please can you go to say...germany who is a bigger country with a bigger economy..or france etc...or maybe stay at home for another 2 years so the UK can take stock of where we are at.."

 

is that such a facist daily mail point of view...or a sensible one?

 

It's a completely impractical one.

 

Free movement of people to ply their trade is one of the most important, best and strongest aspects of the European Union. It has been of great benefit to the continent. The fact is that the vast majority of people have come here to work, have worked and added to the economy, and are a benefit to us. Do you think there would have been an influx of Polish plumbers if British plumbers had been 10 a penny? Of course not. There are jobs here for people and they have rightly taken the opportunity to come here and fill them.

[Robsk II]

Right, right, apologies. I thought you meant we were too free with all movements in the UK.

 

Incidentally, after WW2, a lot of the deal-making etc was actually inherently to do with keeping native populations in their own nations, and not mixed, as it was felt that it was this that had partially led to such hostiliies in the preceeding years. They got it massively wrong in many places, but I thought that might interest you.

[bridge too far]

Here's an interesting article, if anyone can be arsed to read it, about the cost / benefit analyses of immigration throughout Europe.

 

Particularly interesting, towards the end of the piece, are the views of Grant Fitzner.

 

http://www.progressive-governance.net/uploadedFiles/Events/Events/Policy_Network_seminar_report_boon_or_burden.pdf

[Hatch]

Could I move to Benidorm, claim benefits, and sit on the beach all day??

[Robsk II]

"If it was the UK, yes."

[Hatch]

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23589388-details/Immigration+influx+last+year+was+second+highest+on+record/article.do

[bridge too far]

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23589388-details/Immigration+influx+last+year+was+second+highest+on+record/article.do

 

Says it all really - NET immigration, not actual; last year's figures; many Britons returning home; largest single group from Eastern Europe.

 

Also points out that a new points based system is now in operation and that the number of Eastern Europeans returning home is likely to increase substantially this year.

 

So the headline is not indicative of the actual story.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

A large proportion of immigrants are from Eastern Europe and, generally, we have no choice but to accept them (EU membership is another debate). Also, generally speaking, immigrants create more jobs than they take and contribute more proportionally to the national wealth than the population as a whole.

 

However, recent figures show that whilst fewer people emigrated last year, also fewer people entered this country. So the net figure (of immigrants over emigrants) for last year has risen but fewer people from overseas actually want to live here. And I think this year's figures will be very different as a lot of Eastern Europeans are returning home. However, I suspect a large number of British ex-pats will also return home as the recession is biting even deeper in Spain for example. The point someone made about ex-pats in Spain using a disproportionate amount of the Spanish healthcare system is a valid one. No doubt, these ex-pats would hate to be considered to be in the same vein as some people consider immigrants here.

 

But going back to the core issue, my point is that everyone should be able to join a political party and express their views freely. It is then for the rest of us to debate and discredit those views in a rational way. The important thing to look at is the UNDERLYING principles of each party - not the way they currently present themselves.

 

This is why, in spite of the past ten years of New Labour, I continue to support the Labour Party - because I understand the CORE principles. This is also why I would continue to denigrate the BNP because I understand what they REALLY stand for.

 

Well said Sir!

[Crouchie's Lawyer]

Well said Sir!

 

Or even Ma'am

[scott_saints]

When you put everything into perspective, it's actually quite funny when you think how protective people get about their countries etc. I mean, we're all people, and all live on the same ball of mass......but have decided over the thousands of years to create these little make believe lines seperating us from other people.

 

I'm not all for everyone moving anywhere..... but when you put it into perspective, does it really matter?

[Hatch]

When you put everything into perspective, it's actually quite funny when you think how protective people get about their countries etc. I mean, we're all people, and all live on the same ball of mass......but have decided over the thousands of years to create these little make believe lines seperating us from other people.

 

I'm not all for everyone moving anywhere..... but when you put it into perspective, does it really matter?

 

Always thought that about languages, surely over the 'supposed' billions of years of existence, a common language would have developed by now.

[Weston Super Saint]

After hearing some of the things that the party leaders have said when sat in a pub about people I quite strongly disagree.

 

Man in pub saying something controversial non shocker : roll :

[Robsk II]

When you put everything into perspective, it's actually quite funny when you think how protective people get about their countries etc. I mean, we're all people, and all live on the same ball of mass......but have decided over the thousands of years to create these little make believe lines seperating us from other people.

 

I'm not all for everyone moving anywhere..... but when you put it into perspective, does it really matter?

 

Best thing you've ever said. We're humans first and foremost, citizens of the world. Reason #1 why sp much conflict etc makes no sense.

[JohnnyFartPants]

Always thought that about languages, surely over the 'supposed' billions of years of existence, a common language would have developed by now.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto

[Junction 9]

When you put everything into perspective, it's actually quite funny when you think how protective people get about their countries etc. I mean, we're all people, and all live on the same ball of mass......but have decided over the thousands of years to create these little make believe lines seperating us from other people.

 

I'm not all for everyone moving anywhere..... but when you put it into perspective, does it really matter?

 

Scott, someone else has logged in as you on your PC.

 

Thought you should know.

[Mole]

Always thought that about languages, surely over the 'supposed' billions of years of existence, a common language would have developed by now.

 

It has - English. Thanks to the industrial revolution which financed our global Empire we ensured that we don't need to learn foreign languages, In fact i think they should be taken off school curriculum.

 

When i visit exotic places such as Torremolinos and Play De Las Americas i occasionally mutter the odd "gracias" out of good grace, but i wouldn't dream of attempting to expand my vocabulary as i see my self as an abassador on my foreign travels and a chance for the natives to better themselves by improving their ability to speak English.

[bridge too far]

Always thought that about languages, surely over the 'supposed' billions of years of existence, a common language would have developed by now.

 

I think it has, in fact. Most people around the world who have been to school speak some English.

 

Puts us to shame in fact.

[Mole]

I think it has, in fact. Most people around the world who have been to school speak some English.

 

Puts us to shame in fact.

 

It does not put us to shame, it's something we should be proud of.

[Weston Super Saint]

I think it has, in fact. Most people around the world who have been to school speak some English.

 

Puts us to shame in fact.

 

Why?

 

Most of us went to school to learn English too!!

 

By the way, it's not my fault I was born in England, I have no intention of apologising for this fact, and I am not ashamed of it either!

[scott_saints]

Scott, someone else has logged in as you on your PC.

 

Thought you should know.

That was "Serious Scott".

 

He rarely decides to show himself, but he has gone now anyway. ghey lolz.

 

xXxXx

[Hatch]

jeez, coming here and taking our pubs, whatever next.

[Johnny Shearer]

Can someone PM the list to me please?

 

Cheers.

 

I don't agree with the BNP personally but have read about them to get an idea of what who wand what they stand for. Interesting reading for myself.

[Robsk II]

That was "Serious Scott".

 

He rarely decides to show himself, but he has gone now anyway. ghey lolz.

 

xXxXx

 

Does your brother have a surprisingly decent, sensible side too?

[thesaint sfc]

Insupportable statement IMO. Children cost far more than they 'earn' in child benefit etc.

 

As any parent knows

 

I know of social services very well and know of families forking off £40,000 a year and still having more kids.

 

I also know of a woman who has split up with her husband who now looks after her daughter as a single parent. She gets £20,000 a year out of various benefits built up. She wanted to go out and get a job but when she phoned round no one would give her more than £16,000 a year based on her qualifications. Easier to stay at home in front of the telly.

[scott_saints]

Does your brother have a surprisingly decent, sensible side too?

No. A big fat, categoric no.

[Robsk II]

You must be so proud.

[JohnnyFartPants]

You must be so proud.

 

Is it also the case that Shane is the older?

[scott_saints]

I can confirm the above statement.

[Guest Dark Sotonic Mills]

Beacuse immigrants are likely to vote for Labour.

 

Well, there we have another load of old bollix. Migrant workers are not entitled to vote in General Elections so it doesn't matter a hoot what they 'would' vote for as they don't have the opportunity.

[Weston Super Saint]

Well, there we have another load of old bollix. Migrant workers are not entitled to vote in General Elections so it doesn't matter a hoot what they 'would' vote for as they don't have the opportunity.

 

To be fair he said "immigrants" as opposed to 'migrant workers'.

 

I would hazard a guess that a fully fledged 'immigrant' would be registered with his / her local authority, happily paying their council tax [or whatever it's called these days], and thus having their name entered onto the electoral register - just like Mrs WSS who is technically an 'immigrant'.....

[Mole]

Well, there we have another load of old bollix. Migrant workers are not entitled to vote in General Elections so it doesn't matter a hoot what they 'would' vote for as they don't have the opportunity.

 

So all our commonwealth friends who moved over from the 50's onwards (and didn't go back) aren't entitled to vote?

[Guest Dark Sotonic Mills]

So all our commonwealth friends who moved over from the 50's onwards (and didn't go back) aren't entitled to vote?

 

If they are British Citizens, then yes they are allowed to vote. Migrant workers (the ones we have been arguing about, such as Poles and other Eastern Europeans) are not allowed to vote.

Claiming that Commonwealth migrants who are naturalised as being more likely to vote Labour is a farcical statement. Admittedly they are unlikely to vote for the BNP or NF but there is no demographic showing that naturalised immigrants have any specific party affiliation compared to the others.

[Window Cleaner]

I know of social services very well and know of families forking off £40,000 a year and still having more kids.

 

I also know of a woman who has split up with her husband who now looks after her daughter as a single parent. She gets £20,000 a year out of various benefits built up. She wanted to go out and get a job but when she phoned round no one would give her more than £16,000 a year based on her qualifications. Easier to stay at home in front of the telly.

 

 

How does she make up the £20K a year then, I mean I might be missing out on a

career opportunity here. 20K, that's err about 28000 euros a year or 2300 euros a month, at least double the minimum wage in France, only 1 child as well, get f-ll for that here.

[Weston Super Saint]

If they are British Citizens, then yes they are allowed to vote. Migrant workers (the ones we have been arguing about, such as Poles and other Eastern Europeans) are not allowed to vote.

Claiming that Commonwealth migrants who are naturalised as being more likely to vote Labour is a farcical statement. Admittedly they are unlikely to vote for the BNP or NF but there is no demographic showing that naturalised immigrants have any specific party affiliation compared to the others.

 

MRS WSS is Polish - always has been, always will be. She is not a British Citizen, never has been, probably never will be either.

 

She works, so technically can be classed as a "Polish Worker".

 

She is on the electoral roll - so is her mother, who is retired, and no longer works, but does pay her council tax - and is eligible to vote.

 

It is only apathy on her behalf that means she never bothers to use that vote.

[Hatch]

Will the member of the SNP be published next week so we can have another laugh??