Plebs

[pap]

They want to keep him in the government, the coppers have sexed up the witness numbers. The government aim to muddy the waters enough to make his position tenable.

 

The "doesn't look like an angry confrontation" thing is a load of crap, unless you think that all angry confrontations should look like a couple of gesticulating Frenchmen arguing over a garlic eclair.

[Thedelldays]

Pap, you desperately want this to be as big as possible

[pap]

Pap, you desperately want this to be as big as possible

 

I actually think it'll fizzle out. That video casts enough doubt over the specifics of the police report to get him off the hook.

[Thedelldays]

I actually think it'll fizzle out. That video casts enough doubt over the specifics of the police report to get him off the hook.

 

Personally, I could not give a monkeys

But thought someone as free and liberal as yourself would be utterly appalled of the police are found to have fakes this

 

But then, you don't want that to be true due to the political party this fella is with

[pap]

Personally, I could not give a monkeys

But thought someone as free and liberal as yourself would be utterly appalled of the police are found to have fakes this

 

But then, you don't want that to be true due to the political party this fella is with

 

Blimey. Where do I start?

 

Liberal? Free? You're going to have to qualify what you mean by these, old chap. As concepts, they're massively open to interpretation.

 

If the Old Bill are demonstrably proven to have concocted the entire account, then yeah, of course they should be punished. Don't know if that'll be proven. I'd expect them to point to specific inconsistencies in the OB account ( e.g. crowd size on Whitehall ) and use those to diminish its overall credibility.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Personally, I could not give a monkeys

But thought someone as free and liberal as yourself would be utterly appalled of the police are found to have fakes this

 

But then, you don't want that to be true due to the political party this fella is with

 

Exactly, this could be extremely serious a police conspiracy to unseat a cabinet minister, leaks to the press and an officer alleged to have posed as a member of the public, imagine if it was a Murdoch journo smearing a leftie, there would be calls for a "judge led enquiry". What about the police trade union (sorry federation) delegates who demanded a meeting and then told the world Mitchell had not satisfied them,lets hope if this does play out that Mitchell was framed, they have the decency to apologise, as I'm sure red ed will.

[trousers]

They want to keep him in the government, the coppers have sexed up the witness numbers. The government aim to muddy the waters enough to make his position tenable.

 

The "doesn't look like an angry confrontation" thing is a load of crap, unless you think that all angry confrontations should look like a couple of gesticulating Frenchmen arguing over a garlic eclair.

 

At least the CCTV footage has more pixels than any photograph ever taken of the surface of the moon...

[trousers]

Exactly, this could be extremely serious a police conspiracy to unseat a cabinet minister, leaks to the press and an officer alleged to have posed as a member of the public, imagine if it was a Murdoch journo smearing a leftie, there would be calls for a "judge led enquiry". What about the police trade union (sorry federation) delegates who demanded a meeting and then told the world Mitchell had not satisfied them,lets hope if this does play out that Mitchell was framed, they have the decency to apologise, as I'm sure red ed will.

 

Hark over yonder vale.... Oink oink, flap flap

[badgerx16]

It's a bit rich when politicians complain about somebody else lying.

 

Mitchell admits swearing at the Police, which for you or I would probably be an arrestable offence, so the original point at issue remains valid.

 

I wonder if the officer who sent the text did his probation in South Yorkshire.

[saintfully]

Exactly, this could be extremely serious a police conspiracy to unseat a cabinet minister, leaks to the press and an officer alleged to have posed as a member of the public, imagine if it was a Murdoch journo smearing a leftie, there would be calls for a "judge led enquiry". What about the police trade union (sorry federation) delegates who demanded a meeting and then told the world Mitchell had not satisfied them,lets hope if this does play out that Mitchell was framed, they have the decency to apologise, as I'm sure red ed will.

 

Erm which paper was the leaked account printed in again? Think you'll find Murdoch journos will smear anyone if it earns 'em a buck. So naive to think the police are behind this...

[Halo Stickman]

Exactly, this could be extremely serious a police conspiracy to unseat a cabinet minister, leaks to the press and an officer alleged to have posed as a member of the public, imagine if it was a Murdoch journo smearing a leftie, there would be calls for a "judge led enquiry". What about the police trade union (sorry federation) delegates who demanded a meeting and then told the world Mitchell had not satisfied them,lets hope if this does play out that Mitchell was framed, they have the decency to apologise, as I'm sure red ed will.

 

Yes, I have been surprised at how readily some people have accepted the police version of events. I even heard a couple of Liverpudlians giving fulsome support to the police regarding this incident, a few days after the Hillsborough Inquiry announced its findings! Truly incredible.

[JackanorySFC]

Erm which paper was the leaked account printed in again? Think you'll find Murdoch journos will smear anyone if it earns 'em a buck. So naive to think the police are behind this...

 

Was a copper that gave that account to the Sun. How is that the Sun's fault? He went to the Sun because they are the biggest newspaper in terms of readers than any other by a mile!

 

The lefty's desperation to see a Tory stitched up is a shocking example of class snobbery. So many vehemently slagging Mitchell off and expressing faux outrage at the word "Pleb" ffs now desperately scrabbling to the fact he swore as reason enough to destroy a cabinet Minister's career. Pathetic. I get so angry with morons (from either left or right) that use blind political partisanship to justify their prejudices - so many Lefties would never vote for Tories even if Cameron offered them a seat on the cabinet and an entry in their manifesto, purely cos they are "Tory scum, blah blah blah". I've voted for both labour and conservative, that's because I look at who will benefit me, my family and my country most at the time. Not because of something f***ing Thatcher did 30 years ago.

 

Grow up you nutters and admit you made a mistake and jumped the gun. Not the end of the World, we all f*** up a lot and make the wrong call, I certainly have. Embarrassing.

[JackanorySFC]

It's a bit rich when politicians complain about somebody else lying.

 

Mitchell admits swearing at the Police, which for you or I would probably be an arrestable offence, so the original point at issue remains valid.

 

I wonder if the officer who sent the text did his probation in South Yorkshire.

 

LOL! Desperate, properly desperate.... Bet you threw your cup of tea at the tele last night when Dispatches was on "no, no, no, the nasty Tory said Pleb, he must have, sack him, ruin his career and reputation - he's a MP so is not allowed to complain about his name being slandered as he's an MP and they are all liars, well Tory ones anyway, Tory MPs hate me, they hate everyone, Thatcher hated this country, hate hate hate..."

[saintfully]

Was a copper that gave that account to the Sun. How is that the Sun's fault? He went to the Sun because they are the biggest newspaper in terms of readers than any other by a mile!

 

The lefty's desperation to see a Tory stitched up is a shocking example of class snobbery. So many vehemently slagging Mitchell off and expressing faux outrage at the word "Pleb" ffs now desperately scrabbling to the fact he swore as reason enough to destroy a cabinet Minister's career. Pathetic. I get so angry with morons (from either left or right) that use blind political partisanship to justify their prejudices - so many Lefties would never vote for Tories even if Cameron offered them a seat on the cabinet and an entry in their manifesto, purely cos they are "Tory scum, blah blah blah". I've voted for both labour and conservative, that's because I look at who will benefit me, my family and my country most at the time. Not because of something f***ing Thatcher did 30 years ago.

 

Grow up you nutters and admit you made a mistake and jumped the gun. Not the end of the World, we all f*** up a lot and make the wrong call, I certainly have. Embarrassing.

 

You're not wrong there.

[badgerx16]

LOL! Desperate, properly desperate.... Bet you threw your cup of tea at the tele last night when Dispatches was on "no, no, no, the nasty Tory said Pleb, he must have, sack him, ruin his career and reputation - he's a MP so is not allowed to complain about his name being slandered as he's an MP and they are all liars, well Tory ones anyway, Tory MPs hate me, they hate everyone, Thatcher hated this country, hate hate hate..."

 

Pleb !

[Turkish]

LOL! Desperate, properly desperate.... Bet you threw your cup of tea at the tele last night when Dispatches was on "no, no, no, the nasty Tory said Pleb, he must have, sack him, ruin his career and reputation - he's a MP so is not allowed to complain about his name being slandered as he's an MP and they are all liars, well Tory ones anyway, Tory MPs hate me, they hate everyone, Thatcher hated this country, hate hate hate..."

 

One of things that always amuses me bout our liberal live and let live, self important superstars on here is their quick condemnation of the Tories and anti everything they do stance. They'd like to see a mans career ruined just so they can be outraged. As ever, incredible hypocrisy.

[PhilippineSaint]

One of things that always amuses me bout our liberal live and let live, self important superstars on here is their quick condemnation of the Tories and anti everything they do stance. They'd like to see a mans career ruined just so they can be outraged. As ever, incredible hypocrisy.

 

Turkish I agree with you why the hell ( here I will be called a racist) cannot an English white middle age person with two kids get help from the authorities whilst an immigrant with children living abroad can??

[Lord Duckhunter]

 

The lefty's desperation to see a Tory stitched up is a shocking example of class snobbery. So many vehemently slagging Mitchell off and expressing faux outrage at the word "Pleb" ffs now desperately scrabbling to the fact he swore as reason enough to destroy a cabinet Minister's career. Pathetic. I get so angry with morons (from either left or right) that use blind political partisanship to justify their prejudices - so many Lefties would never vote for Tories even if Cameron offered them a seat on the cabinet and an entry in their manifesto, purely cos they are "Tory scum, blah blah blah". I've voted for both labour and conservative, that's because I look at who will benefit me, my family and my country most at the time. Not because of something f***ing Thatcher did 30 years ago.

 

Grow up you nutters and admit you made a mistake and jumped the gun. Not the end of the World, we all f*** up a lot and make the wrong call, I certainly have. Embarrassing.

 

It's pretty serious IMO.

 

Police making things up to bring down a cabinet minister, and in Downing Street FFS. Left or right, everybody should be concerned about that.

 

Mitchell is the worst type of Tory, a wet Camerony who once said right wing things to get selected, but since he's turned all Ted Heathism. However, forget about the personalities involved, if the police would fit up a cabinet minister, what hope for the likes of you and me. There are thousends of decent coppers, but the leadership and the behaviour of the minority taint the force (or service as I believe the lefties call it).

 

The police govern by consent, and yet bit by bit they are losing respect and public confidence. What we need is some old fashioned coppers leading them and not a load of pinkies who think they're social workers.

Edited 19 December, 2012 by Lord Duckhunter

[Thedelldays]

One of things that always amuses me bout our liberal live and let live, self important superstars on here is their quick condemnation of the Tories and anti everything they do stance. They'd like to see a mans career ruined just so they can be outraged. As ever, incredible hypocrisy.

they had a lot to say when it seemed the word "pleb" was used by this MP...now it looks like a stitch up by the police...its no issue if they lied as this fella is a tory...

[trousers]

 

http://www.channel4.com/news/andrew-mitchell-email-letter-plebgate-pleb-police

Edited 19 December, 2012 by trousers

[Turkish]

they had a lot to say when it seemed the word "pleb" was used by this MP...now it looks like a stitch up by the police...its no issue if they lied as this fella is a tory...

 

And because he said f*ck he should have been arrested anyway. Apparantly.

[Thedelldays]

And because he said f*ck he should have been arrested anyway. Apparantly.

doesnt that make him more like the rest of us...?

 

this whole affair and political point scoring is utterly embarrassing....and to see the likes of BTF, pap and their comrades going nuts about it initially is also hilarious

[View From The Top]

And because he said f*ck he should have been arrested anyway. Apparantly.

 

He covered that by saying he was aimed directly at any of the officers.

[Turkish]

doesnt that make him more like the rest of us...?

 

this whole affair and political point scoring is utterly embarrassing....and to see the likes of BTF, pap and their comrades going nuts about it initially is also hilarious

 

Yep. Is all very embarassing for them. Still it won't be long before there will be something else they can be outraged at.

[bridge too far]

doesnt that make him more like the rest of us...?

 

this whole affair and political point scoring is utterly embarrassing....and to see the likes of BTF, pap and their comrades going nuts about it initially is also hilarious

 

Aah bless him! I haven't commented on these latest events at all - but you go ahead lovie and jerk those knees.

[Thedelldays]

Aah bless him! I haven't commented on these latest events at all - but you go ahead lovie and jerk those knees.

i said about the initial story...

[bridge too far]

i said about the initial story...

 

I didn't 'go nuts' about the initial story either.

 

I have never, ever assumed that the police only ever tell the truth. I know they don't. I have a friend in the DPG (although not involved in this affair) and I have a few friends who are MPs. All are honourable people to my knowledge but there are black sheep in every profession (apart from submariners, of course).

 

I await the outcome of the various enquiries. But bear in mind that Mr Mitchell admitted he swore at a police officer. If you did that, or if I did that, we'd be arrested.

[Thedelldays]

I didn't 'go nuts' about the initial story either.

 

I have never, ever assumed that the police only ever tell the truth. I know they don't. I have a friend in the DPG (although not involved in this affair) and I have a few friends who are MPs. All are honourable people to my knowledge but there are black sheep in every profession (apart from submariners, of course).

 

I await the outcome of the various enquiries. But bear in mind that Mr Mitchell admitted he swore at a police officer. If you did that, or if I did that, we'd be arrested.

you probably would not..have sworn many times in my life at police..and not once ever been arrested...or threatened with it

[Saintandy666]

The only thing in dispute here is the word 'Pleb'. Andrew Mitchell still behaved in a way no Cabinet Secretary should. He is acting like he is exonerated when he really really isn't.

[CB Saint]

Yep. Is all very embarassing for them. Still it won't be long before there will be something else they can be outraged at.

 

I think Turkish just got outraged on the Santa hats thread on the main board

[um pahars]

Yes, I have been surprised at how readily some people have accepted the police version of events. I even heard a couple of Liverpudlians giving fulsome support to the police regarding this incident, a few days after the Hillsborough Inquiry announced its findings! Truly incredible.

 

I think that despite the Hillsborough scandal, the potential similar cover up at Orgreave, the apparent faking of this witness statement and a few other misdemeanours, I still think the UK Police force is trusted & espected, and rightly so.

 

It is one of the pillars of our society, and instances like this one appears to be, need to investigated and serious action taken if it turns out that this copper was implicit in twisting the knife in to Mitchell.

 

The apparent actions of a rogue copper doesn't exonerate Mitchell though.

[Halo Stickman]

I think that despite the Hillsborough scandal, the potential similar cover up at Orgreave, the apparent faking of this witness statement and a few other misdemeanours, I still think the UK Police force is trusted & espected, and rightly so.

 

It is one of the pillars of our society, and instances like this one appears to be, need to investigated and serious action taken if it turns out that this copper was implicit in twisting the knife in to Mitchell.

 

The apparent actions of a rogue copper doesn't exonerate Mitchell though.

 

I’m sure you’re right, Um, that the majority of UK police officers are to be trusted and respected; at least, I bloody well hope so.

 

I wasn’t so much knocking the police with that post as expressing my amazement that, in that of all weeks, Liverpudlians were so ready to accept the police’s version of events. I’m damn sure that if the police had being making allegations against a Liverpool supporter, rather than a Tory MP, their support would have been a little less fulsome.

[benjii]

"Exonerate" - **** me.

 

On a very worse-case scenario, all that happened was a man in a high-pressured, demanding job that 99% of the population wouldn't have the smallest proportion of the requisite ability to do lost his rag a bit and threw a few, frankly pretty anodyne, rude words around in a spat witnessed by a paltry smattering of people.

 

There is no exonerating to be done. A small apology for losing his temper is more than adequate. The fact that this was ever anything other than a very small side-story exposes the prejudices and hysteria running through this country's feeble attempts at a public discourse to a far greater degree than any prejudices Mitchell may or may not harbour.

[Thedelldays]

"Exonerate" - **** me.

 

On a very worse-case scenario, all that happened was a man in a high-pressured, demanding job that 99% of the population wouldn't have the smallest proportion of the requisite ability to do lost his rag a bit and threw a few, frankly pretty anodyne, rude words around in a spat witnessed by a paltry smattering of people.

 

totally agree...

[Jonnyboy]

Ive always found it a bit sus that hundreds of students managed to break into Tory HQ and trash the place.

 

Would not be surprised if this whole thing was a conspiracy in revenge for cuts to police budgets. The police, politicians and media have had countless examples of corruption in recent years.

 

Embarrassing.

[aintforever]

This whole thing is just a storm in a tea cup, it's so typically British that someone so high powered lost his job over something so trivial.

 

It is however hilarious though because it is a pompus Tory asshole that lost his job becasue they are the sort of people who would happily throw the book at a football fan for swearing at the plod.

 

It is also hilarious that some rozzer will also shortly lose his job as well for sending that email. Typical of today's police IMO.

[Jonnyboy]

Stupid pigs didnt even stop to think if the CCTV would back up their story.

[um pahars]

"Exonerate" - **** me.

 

On a very worse-case scenario, all that happened was a man in a high-pressured, demanding job that 99% of the population wouldn't have the smallest proportion of the requisite ability to do lost his rag a bit and threw a few, frankly pretty anodyne, rude words around in a spat witnessed by a paltry smattering of people.

 

There is no exonerating to be done. A small apology for losing his temper is more than adequate. The fact that this was ever anything other than a very small side-story exposes the prejudices and hysteria running through this country's feeble attempts at a public discourse to a far greater degree than any prejudices Mitchell may or may not harbour.

 

Exonerate = to absolve from blame for a wrongdoing (with absolve being used in the context of freeing from responsibility).

 

Mitchell was in the wrong, he accepted this and apologised for his wrongdoings, and these new revelations do nothing to alter that fact. Therefore they do not exonerate him.

 

I personally felt his apology was sufficient (even if his subsequent comments and failure to be open about what he said made me somewhat distrustful of him), even if others like Boris were calling for those who abuse the Police to be arrested.

[Viking Warrior]

There are a few corrupt police in every police force who ruin it for the rest of honest police folk . We have some dodgy ones up here hopefully a couple will get their come uppence shortly when a judicial case review is undertaken in the new year

[Saintandy666]

Ive always found it a bit sus that hundreds of students managed to break into Tory HQ and trash the place.

 

Would not be surprised if this whole thing was a conspiracy in revenge for cuts to police budgets. The police, politicians and media have had countless examples of corruption in recent years.

 

Embarrassing.

 

I was there that day. There were 225 police(IIRC) and 50,000 students(much more than expected). It wasn't hard if a certain element of the group wanted to go into milibank for them to do so.

[trousers]

"Exonerate" - **** me.

 

On a very worse-case scenario, all that happened was a man in a high-pressured, demanding job that 99% of the population wouldn't have the smallest proportion of the requisite ability to do lost his rag a bit and threw a few, frankly pretty anodyne, rude words around in a spat witnessed by a paltry smattering of people.

 

There is no exonerating to be done. A small apology for losing his temper is more than adequate. The fact that this was ever anything other than a very small side-story exposes the prejudices and hysteria running through this country's feeble attempts at a public discourse to a far greater degree than any prejudices Mitchell may or may not harbour.

 

^ This

[egg]

"Exonerate" - **** me.

 

On a very worse-case scenario, all that happened was a man in a high-pressured, demanding job that 99% of the population wouldn't have the smallest proportion of the requisite ability to do lost his rag a bit and threw a few, frankly pretty anodyne, rude words around in a spat witnessed by a paltry smattering of people.

 

There is no exonerating to be done. A small apology for losing his temper is more than adequate. The fact that this was ever anything other than a very small side-story exposes the prejudices and hysteria running through this country's feeble attempts at a public discourse to a far greater degree than any prejudices Mitchell may or may not harbour.

 

Superb post. Agree 100%

[Jonnyboy]

I was there that day. There were 225 police(IIRC) and 50,000 students(much more than expected). It wasn't hard if a certain element of the group wanted to go into milibank for them to do so.

 

Why were there only 225 coppers? "oh because of the cuts we've been overstretched and couldnt afford more"

[pap]

This deserves an honest response I reckon. I am biased against Conservatives, and hand on heart, I'd love specifically for the "pleb" thing to be true. I suspect it probably is, but will never be proven either way. That's because the discrepancies in the video throw enough doubt on specifics to put its overall reliability into question. I actually think that's the play here; they want to keep Mitchell in government - this is the opportunity to do so.

 

He's already admitted to swearing at them. I don't see that as a problem, and nor will most people. It is the word "pleb" that is a problem, because it speaks to the commonly held notion that this crop of Tories feel they're born to rule. The Tories want Mitchell back in government. They're muddying up the water enough on this one specific thing to allow that to happen.

 

That Mitchell loses his rag with coppers isn't really an issue. The copper posing as a member of the public is dodgy as hell, and needs to be investigated. Since Mitchell has 'fessed up to the bad language, this can only be about the word "pleb".

 

Reminds me a joke.

 

Q: How many coppers does it take to work out if Andrew Mitchell said pleb?

A: 30

 

Yeah, you're right. It's not funny.

[Thedelldays]

pap...how can you be honest when you admit you want this pleb thing to be true and biased against the torys..

 

people like you who desperately point score politically are partly responsible for the dire bland politics we have...

[pap]

pap...how can you be honest when you admit you want this pleb thing to be true and biased against the torys..

 

people like you who desperately point score politically are partly responsible for the dire bland politics we have...

 

Those are my honest feelings.

 

Jamie, you seem to be confusing honesty with impartiality. Honestly, I'm not impartial.

[Lord Duckhunter]

As Davd Davis said on yesterdays Daily Politics, a defence lawyer would have a field day if this evidence was brought before a judge.

 

From watching the cctv there was clearly no crowd, there was clearly not enough time for Mitchell to say all that was claimed in the report. It is also a fact that an officer not even there claimed he was and was a member of the public, it was also a fact that the police log book was leaked to the press. Mitchell has always claimed he swore but never said pleb, the only claim that he said pleb was from a discredited police source. How on earth anybody can reach the conclusion that he did say pleb is beyond me. There is not a court in the land that would back the police in this instance.

[pap]

As Davd Davis said on yesterdays Daily Politics, a defence lawyer would have a field day if this evidence was brought before a judge.

 

From watching the cctv there was clearly no crowd, there was clearly not enough time for Mitchell to say all that was claimed in the report. It is also a fact that an officer not even there claimed he was and was a member of the public, it was also a fact that the police log book was leaked to the press. Mitchell has always claimed he swore but never said pleb, the only claim that he said pleb was from a discredited police source. How on earth anybody can reach the conclusion that he did say pleb is beyond me. There is not a court in the land that would back the police in this instance.

 

Got infinitely more time for David Davis than most of his party, and though I'm not a legal expert, you don't really have to be to suss out how this plays out.

 

"You said Mr Mitchell called you a pleb. Are you sure?"

"But you also said that there were x members of the public in the vicinity. There were only y...."

 

Like I say, no genius required, and any competent defence lawyer should rip through this like a hot knife through butter. Begs the question really; why did Mitchell resign?

 

Perhaps it's one of those blood in the nostrils / damned if you do / damned if you don't moments. Mitchell may have been telling the truth, but was facing the prospect of saying two serving officers were lying shortly after two serving officers were killed in Manchester. If I was being highly uncharitable, I could say that he should have stuck to the courage of his convictions, but that's the highly uncharitable position. The realist in me understands the sensitivity of the period in question, and also appreciates that people like me may have contributed to his ultimate demise.

 

However you want to look at it, the Conservatives were absolutely unprepared to offer a robust defence of Mitchell when this story first emerged. Maybe this is just a characteristic of their governance, and if you took the charitable position, you'd commend them for not taking knee-jerk decisions and not cutting short holidays to deal with trivialities like riots on a national scale. Lest you think this point is flippant, let me assure you that it is anything but. Our society should be able to cope with its leadership being away, and as it turns out, can. Yet this remains one of Cameron's biggest blunders, and the clearest indication that One Nation, a slogan recently appropriated by the Labour Party, wasn't something the Conservatives were remotely interested in. Clearly not something the rioters bought into either.

[Thedelldays]

please shut up pap.

[pap]

please shut up pap.

 

Why do you care?

 

You never read any of the posts.