Today's attendance: 30,713

[The9]

Last home game 2nd September, next home league game 7th October, i should have got my facts right. it's our only home league game in 5 WEEKS, not four. Makes it even worse.

 

Yeah, but everyone's saving themselves for the competitions we might win, like the League Cup game on Tuesday.

 

Except me, I'm not going to that one, first match I've missed this season.

[The9]

Again you are wrong, I like the discussions about attendance and the possible expansion, that's why I opened up the thread. But instead of a decent debate it's littered with you lot rubbing the noses of the other lot in it, references to oxfordshire roadworks and south wales catchment area etc were relevant, maybe even a bit funny months ago, but now are a bit ******ish. It's ironic that you think the Ground hog day picture is tedious.

 

This is a forum we are all trying to affect opinion, but because I don't agree with you I'm a bedwetter. Im just looking forward to a good discussion on this without reference to a few daft things said over the summer.

 

Just for the record, we had a South Wales fanbase in 2003, but I moved to Southampton in 2005/6. Cardiff City and Swansea's relative successes since have hoovered up the weak-willed in the interim.

[Turkish]

Yeah, but everyone's saving themselves for the competitions we might win, like the League Cup game on Tuesday.

 

Except me, I'm not going to that one, first match I've missed this season.

 

Nor me. I'll follow the match thread on here and try desperately to beat Trousers to type "CORNER TO SAINTS" along with 15 others.

[Leicestersaint]

I think the idea that we will sell out every week is plain daft - there are the away tickets and the spaces lost between the Northam and them, and then all the over-priced hospitality areas. Lots of people are finding times very hard at the moment, and the prices are very high, but also people do not want to sit on their own in some corner of the ground. An average gate of over 30,000 seems pretty good to me.

[dubai_phil]

Ok bright sparks.

 

To help this argument along the way.

 

What are the current capacities of our different Hospitality Sections?

 

570 not sold, well as I recall there are how many seats per box? 10? and we have how many boxes?

 

The different Pie & Pint options?

 

The maths seems to be the fans filled the stadium seats, companies are the ones not paying top whack at this moment in time

 

Renders the arguments into a different light. Should we cut Hospitality and up the seats available? Did this mean that fans could not get tickets EXCEPT at 100 quid a pop?

[The Kraken]

Phil, there were tickets throughout the whole ground that didn't sell out. Plenty of empty standard priced home tickets, a block of standard priced away tickets, a good proportion of the corporate boxes, and also a big block of empty seats from those in the lounges. As of the morning of the game there were over 500 standard home tickets still available for sale; these didn't fully sell out.

 

The corporate boxes are their own story; neither they nor the lounges even sold out for the Man Utd game, which would suggest the prices are too high or the club's marketing isn't working. As i stated earlier in this thread (as relayed by a couple of mates who were in the Mick Channon suite), the quality of experience seems to have gone through floor level. Well over-priced seats, a pay bar which takes forever to get served at, and a high-brow menu consisting only of hot dogs, croque monsieurs and chicken wraps. Until the club sorts out this and the corporate boxes we're not going to get too many crowds much over 31,000 this season.

 

Unfortunately, lowering prices is simply soemthing that this management regime seem likely to do. They didn't do it whilst we had thousands of empty seats in the Championship, I don't believe they'll start doing it now.

[Whitey Grandad]

Hows that working out for Darlington?

They don't play there any more but the Arena has other uses. I hear that Elton John went down quite well.

[dubai_phil]

Phil, there were tickets throughout the whole ground that didn't sell out. Plenty of empty standard priced home tickets, a block of standard priced away tickets, a good proportion of the corporate boxes, and also a big block of empty seats from those in the lounges. As of the morning of the game there were over 500 standard home tickets still available for sale; these didn't fully sell out.

 

The corporate boxes are their own story; neither they nor the lounges even sold out for the Man Utd game, which would suggest the prices are too high or the club's marketing isn't working. As i stated earlier in this thread (as relayed by a couple of mates who were in the Mick Channon suite), the quality of experience seems to have gone through floor level. Well over-priced seats, a pay bar which takes forever to get served at, and a high-brow menu consisting only of hot dogs, croque monsieurs and chicken wraps. Until the club sorts out this and the corporate boxes we're not going to get too many crowds much over 31,000 this season.

 

Unfortunately, lowering prices is simply soemthing that this management regime seem likely to do. They didn't do it whilst we had thousands of empty seats in the Championship, I don't believe they'll start doing it now.

 

Understand that but the core question still remains what IS the Corp Capacity? If we are supposed to be 32,501 and we were 1,700ish tickets short of a full load....

 

We know from posts that only 500 tickets were available for walk ups a couple of hours before the match......

 

There IS clearly a problem with the economy which will impact Corp Seats (and the anti-bribery laws) but also recall reading about needing a sales person (they fired the last one?) and if they are not getting the numbers in Corp AND they are reducing the quality of the experience... Stop trying to sell them as Corp seats and let the punters in would be a better short term solution than a new tier on the Itchen surely..

 

Also remember you can have empty seats "all over the place" and yet that seat HAS actually been sold - for example ST holders who haven't been able to go and who have no mates

 

Example was at the Chapel end clearly empty seats were shown yet they are also definitely ST seats as they were where some guys I was chatting to at Wigan game usually sit

 

So attendance ie people at the game or seats filled, doesn't equal seats sold (which is stupid but then it was no doubt a dream up by an Accountant/taxman)

[Frank's cousin]

You see, it's these sort of comments that make me question the sanity of people on here. Why would any decent businessman spend c£20m expanding a stadium and then reduce the price to fill it? Why would they spend this sort of money to only achieve the same revenues as we currently have? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The only way it would make any sense if if there is a continued demand for tickets which outstrips supply for a lengthy period of time. Ie every game sold out weeks in advanced, waiting list for season tickets, the made scramble for tickets we were told there would be but isn't happening. That sort of thing.

 

Does anyone seriously think Cortese, or anyone else for that matter, is going to expand the stadium at a cost over tens of millions and cut prices so there is no additional income, simply because he's a great guy and loves the fans?

 

Think this is where the confusion (and frustration lies) here - you are totally right in that no sane rational businessman would contemplate spending 20-30mil without signifuicant increasd returns. No one is advocating that either. What I and some others have suggested is a different ticketing model that INCREASES revenue - which could be done if capacity allowed AND we had demand. The model I am thinking off is successfully applied in Germany for example at Bayern. They make some 8000 STs available at under £180 a year, and change mored for the better seats - making attendance more affordable for a GREATER numbers, thus in theory meaning an increased demand and greater total attendance.

 

I am sure that a model could be calculated that demonstrates an increase in revenue, in excess of any repayment on the cost of construction, that would allow a greater range of ticketing prices, which when combined with other match day revenue would make a strong buisness case under the right economic circumstances. Naturally this depends on the quality of the product as well and maintaining progress within the prem.

 

To repeat, no one has ever suggested that a 20-30mil investment be made just to offer cheaper tickets and thus no increase in revenue, but to offer a greater range that is justified in increase affordability, on teh basis on INCREASED total revenue. Its a big IF as to whether fans would respond to such amodel, but given teh numbers who currently have to chose which games they attend carefully due to cost, its not impossible to suggest that they might?

[Turkish]

They fired David Chell who did the job at Man City very well. Luker left for reasons that i'll keep to myself and i understand they've been through a couple of others as well. Something is obviously amiss if these good and knowledgeable people with proven track records are leaving, it simply cant be a case of all of them just not being good enough when they've succeeded elsewhere.

[Frank's cousin]

They fired David Chell who did the job at Man City very well. Luker left for reasons that i'll keep to myself and i understand they've been through a couple of others as well. Something is obviously amiss if these good and knowledgeable people with proven track records are leaving, it simply cant be a case of all of them just not being good enough when they've succeeded elsewhere.

 

You may well have a point, but until it moves beyond insuinuation and speculation with hard evidence, it should remain filed as BS.

[Turkish]

You may well have a point' date=' but until it moves beyond insuinuation and speculation with hard evidence, it should remain filed as BS.[/quote']

 

Trust me Frank; It isn't. But that's all i'll say on the matter.

[Patrick Bateman]

Isn't Corp seating around the 1000 mark, maybe 1200 - seems to ring a bell.

 

I do think that there isn't demand for a bigger stadium in the current economic climate - but Frank's post makes perfect sense as a business model. There is a cut-off point between expanding the stadium by x amount and reducing the prices by y amount where is makes no sense. But I'd argue that selling season tickets for (say) £250 would shift lots more and making the normal matchday price a similar amount (minus, say, £2 per ticket) would work. The ROI over 5 years would (probably) outweigh the expansion cost and leaving a little more income for wages/transfers etc.

 

But no, in the current climate, it would be insane - the fanbase IS there, but the fans who are willing to spend are NOT there. As shown by not selling out our home matches in the Prem, by the poor cup turnout and by the p*ss poor friendly attendances.

 

Is there a stadium that's sold out week-in, week-out? Other than say Man Utd and Chelsea, probably Spurs (their ground IS too small for them!! Are we really saying we need a bigger ground than Spurs? hahaha!!!!)

[Thedelldays]

I always thought 36k-38k would be perfect for us..... No we won't sell out every week... We would many games... We won't some others.

 

What would be a certainty... We will have a great deal more fans through the gates over a whole season...

[The Kraken]

There IS clearly a problem with the economy which will impact Corp Seats (and the anti-bribery laws) but also recall reading about needing a sales person (they fired the last one?) and if they are not getting the numbers in Corp AND they are reducing the quality of the experience... Stop trying to sell them as Corp seats and let the punters in would be a better short term solution than a new tier on the Itchen surely..

 

The problem is that, for the current empty corporate lounge seats, if you just sell them as standard match tickets there is no standard concourse for those fans to go to. and no toilets to use that aren't in the corporate zone. So those ticket holders would be in at half time with those who have actually paid for the corporate areas, which kind of makes it redundant.

[Frank's cousin]

Isn't Corp seating around the 1000 mark, maybe 1200 - seems to ring a bell.

 

I do think that there isn't demand for a bigger stadium in the current economic climate - but Frank's post makes perfect sense as a business model. There is a cut-off point between expanding the stadium by x amount and reducing the prices by y amount where is makes no sense. But I'd argue that selling season tickets for (say) £250 would shift lots more and making the normal matchday price a similar amount (minus, say, £2 per ticket) would work. The ROI over 5 years would (probably) outweigh the expansion cost and leaving a little more income for wages/transfers etc.

 

But no, in the current climate, it would be insane - the fanbase IS there, but the fans who are willing to spend are NOT there. As shown by not selling out our home matches in the Prem, by the poor cup turnout and by the p*ss poor friendly attendances.

 

Is there a stadium that's sold out week-in, week-out? Other than say Man Utd and Chelsea, probably Spurs (their ground IS too small for them!! Are we really saying we need a bigger ground than Spurs? hahaha!!!!)

 

Its a very important factor, but its almost impossible to define exact;y the level of impact the current climate has on our 'potential' attendance - back in 2003/4 we probably had around 8 or 9 games in which w ecould have sold 5-10k more ven at those prices - and when you look at the current price, its very much in line with what we paid then with ouround a 30% increase (total) in some 7-8 years - which at a guess would work out less than 3% compound over that time - in line with inflation etc.

 

BUt 2003-2005 was a very different time economically - I would be interested to know how many fans we have who currently do not have an ST, because they cant afford it, but therefore go to around 10-12 games this season, and who would have bought one had the climate been different? My guess is around 5000-7000 or so - a guess based on teh fact we will get around 30k each week, with 20k odd ST holders so might be an underestimate?

 

The complexity is that we have to factor in the concession rates etc for kids and OAPs when trying to get an average per match revenue form Tickets and then addd food/drink etc. I dont belive we have enough folk within our catchment area that would see us selling out regularly at say 36 or 40k with the current ticket prices - wont happen, but given that say 6000 extra at £20 average x 19 = 2.3 mil = we would need to attract that over an above what we currenty have to break even on a 25mil investment - (assumes a repayment rate of around 2mil per annum over 20 years - similar to the SMS loan) - so The question is, would we be able to do that? I dont know, but given all clubs do currently have issues with corporate as well, its a difficult one.

 

OK so no need for it NOW, but as planing and build would be 5-6 years, would it be wise to begin the planning process now in anticipation or our needs/economic improvements by 2018? That is the issue really.

 

Some of us say YES go for it, which is easy to do when its not your money, but also in part because its part of being a fan, that you like to see your club demonstrate committmnet to growth and have an ambition to match our own - to stretch what we think is realistic (fans are naturally pessimistic bunch on the whole) and the message such planning and investment sends out, influences many things such academy recruitment, ease of getting those players we want (the better, higher quality etc). That said it also easy for clubs to get carried away and end up in the mire...

[This Charming Man]

Yeah, but everyone's saving themselves for the competitions we might win, like the League Cup game on Tuesday.

 

Except me, I'm not going to that one, first match I've missed this season.

 

Have you finally started you ticket tax boycott, then?

[The Kraken]

...back in 2003/4 we probably had around 8 or 9 games in which w ecould have sold 5-10k more ven at those prices - and when you look at the current price' date=' its very much in line with what we paid then with ouround a 30% increase (total) in some 7-8 years - which at a guess would work out less than 3% compound over that time - in line with inflation etc.[/quote']

 

That's a really big assumption you're making there. 2003/04 was indeed our most successful season in terms of attendance; but then in the past few days quite a few people have pointed out that we very regularly had walk-ups of up to 2,000 sales on matchday. I don't think I could agree that, if that is indeed true, we would have had an extra 5,000 or 10,000 fans who were shut out at those games. Maybe, maybe against 4 or 5 sides, we could sold a few thousand extra, but I wouldn't concur with up to 10K for 8 or 9 games, no way.

 

Besides, as I said, 2003/04 was our most successful in terms of attendance; mainly due to the cup final being the previous year and relied upon our highest level of season ticket sales (23,000). For all other years in the PL at St. Mary's we had between 6 and 8 games a season which didn't sell out. And lets not pretend we were a struggling side at the time, we finished comfortbaly in mid-table for every season except our relegation one.

 

OK so no need for it NOW, but as planing and build would be 5-6 years, would it be wise to begin the planning process now in anticipation or our needs/economic improvements by 2018? That is the issue really.

 

Some of us say YES go for it, which is easy to do when its not your money, but also in part because its part of being a fan, that you like to see your club demonstrate committmnet to growth and have an ambition to match our own - to stretch what we think is realistic (fans are naturally pessimistic bunch on the whole) and the message such planning and investment sends out, influences many things such academy recruitment, ease of getting those players we want (the better, higher quality etc). That said it also easy for clubs to get carried away and end up in the mire...

 

I don't think anyone is ruling it out in future. But you made an earlier post that it would be daft for the club to wait for 3 or 4 seasons and then make a decision off the back of that. I disagree, very much. I think the club should wait, at least 3 years, and look at the potential and ticket sales after that. There is plenty they could do in the mean time; get design plans drawn up, get planning applications and whatever all in line, it wouldn't involve just sitting around for all that time. If we get a bigger ground it will be on the current pricing structure; talk of flexible pricing and what not is all very well but there are absolutely no signs that the club want to embrace it (hence the consistent lack of sell-outs in corporate areas and in the stadium this season and last).

Edited 24 September, 2012 by The Kraken

[Frank's cousin]

I don't think anyone is ruling it out in future. But you made an earlier post that it would be daft for the club to wait for 3 or 4 seasons and then make a decision off the back of that. I disagree, very much. I think the club should wait, at least 3 years, and look at the potential and ticket sales after that. There is plenty they could do in the mean time; get design plans drawn up, get planning applications and whatever all in line, it wouldn't involve just sitting around for all that time. If we get a bigger ground it will be on the current pricing structure; talk of flexible pricing and what not is all very well but there are absolutely no signs that the club want to embrace it (hence the consistent lack of sell-outs in corporate areas and in the stadium this season and last).

 

The reason why I think it is daft to wait to 'begin' the process is that it will take at least 5-6 years form start to opening - 8-9 if we wait for 3 years etc. I guess the difficulty seems to be that its pretty much impossible to look at past attendance or even current ones, when the cimate and other variable swill see up and down shifts etc during that time... therefore is there a case to made for being bullish? Assuming we can stay up and progress in the direction NC wants us to, and look at the the pricing models in other countries and how they have been very effective in seeing major attendance increases, especially in the Bundesliga where the stadium upgrades and new increased capacity stadia post WC2006 saw ,major increases in attendance?

 

Price senitivity is such a key and difficult business - and yes it needs to be reflective of increased costs etc, but this is why increased capacity is possibly a way to deal with vagaries of economic fluctuations?

[The Kraken]

The reason why I think it is daft to wait to 'begin' the process is that it will take at least 5-6 years form start to opening - 8-9 if we wait for 3 years etc. I guess the difficulty seems to be that its pretty much impossible to look at past attendance or even current ones' date=' when the cimate and other variable swill see up and down shifts etc during that time... [b']therefore is there a case to made for being bullish?[/b] Assuming we can stay up and progress in the direction NC wants us to, and look at the the pricing models in other countries and how they have been very effective in seeing major attendance increases, especially in the Bundesliga where the stadium upgrades and new increased capacity stadia post WC2006 saw ,major increases in attendance?

 

That's my point; i don't believe there is. I think it smacks of rushing to get something done without looking at the whole picture; almost as if its a guess as to what the new capacity should be. They could take a guess and chuck the capacity up to 50K and find we never, ever get near to selling that many tickets. Alternatively they could build up to, say, 38K and find that's not actually big enough and should have gone bigger. Quite simply, we don't know yet, and I don't think there's anything wrong in taking a wait and see approach over 2, 3, even more seasons.

 

As I said, there's no reason the club can't get designs done for potential expansion scenarios and get planning permission and council buy in, and that can all start right now (I've previously said I'd be surprised if it isn't underway in some form or the other). That's what Reading have done, they've had their expansion plans approved for a few years now, so they are ready to commence actual works whenever they deem its worthwhile them doing so.

 

Price senitivity is such a key and difficult business - and yes it needs to be reflective of increased costs etc' date=' but this is why increased capacity is possibly a way to deal with vagaries of economic fluctuations?[/quote']

 

We've had the dicsussion on elastic and flexible pricing techniques, and we don't need to revisit them. I'd simply reiterate that, whatever my views on flexible pricing, I don't see it happening, as we've shown no signs of it so far. I personally think Cortese's driver will be selling out within the current pricing structure, and as and when that happens any expansion will be based upon that pricing model, and providing enhanced availablityu of seating within that structure.

[Flyer]

LOL ! Liverpool talking of making Anfield 60,000 and they are short of their capacity most games too (cap 45k average 44k)...numpties if only they had some of our fans to point out the folly in trying to progress!

And hark at the Villa fans we can see your empty seats! averaging 35k in a 42k stadium..they'd be better off ground sharing with the brum!

 

The thing is with Liverpool, like Loftus road is theres loads of terrible views, you cant see a goal in over a thousand seats at Loftus Road and the same is true at Liverpool if people stand up.

Hence why people wont pay £50 and not get a good view but they would with a new stadium or new seats with an unobstructed view.

 

I think SMS is just about the right size, it wont sell out against the Wigans/Norwichs/Readings, will be on the verge of selling out against the Evertons/Newcastles/QPRs and will sell out against the top 7-8.

[Sour Mash]

The thing is with Liverpool, like Loftus road is theres loads of terrible views, you cant see a goal in over a thousand seats at Loftus Road and the same is true at Liverpool if people stand up.

Hence why people wont pay £50 and not get a good view but they would with a new stadium or new seats with an unobstructed view.

 

I think SMS is just about the right size, it wont sell out against the Wigans/Norwichs/Readings, will be on the verge of selling out against the Evertons/Newcastles/QPRs and will sell out against the top 7-8.

You're not in the same category as Newcastle and Everton. You're in the same category as Reading. Just saying.

[The Kraken]

I think SMS is just about the right size, it wont sell out against the Wigans/Norwichs/Readings, will be on the verge of selling out against the Evertons/Newcastles/QPRs and will sell out against the top 7-8.

 

The Man Utd game sold out of regular seats around 2 weeks prior to kick off. Corporate seats and corporate lounge seats, however, got nowhere near to selling out. If we can't sell out all seats against Man Utd then we probably won't sell out any games this season.

 

And you kind of need to move QPR back to amongst the Wigans/Norwichs/Readings (not sure why those clubs are pluralised though).

[Tamesaint]

I think SMS is just about the right size, it wont sell out against the Wigans/Norwichs/Readings, will be on the verge of selling out against the Evertons/Newcastles/QPRs and will sell out against the top 7-8.

 

"Evertons /Newcastles and .....QPR's" LOL

[Flyer]

You're not in the same category as Newcastle and Everton. You're in the same category as Reading. Just saying.

 

Not playing wise but I think every game against QPR has sold out at SMS which is what I was referring to.

[Turkish]

Not playing wise but I think every game against QPR has sold out at SMS which is what I was referring to.

 

Err, no it hasn't. I remember one particularly dire 0-0 game against your lot and we only had about 18,000 there.

[Appy]

Not playing wise but I think every game against QPR has sold out at SMS which is what I was referring to.

 

It really hasn't.

[Sour Mash]

Not playing wise but I think every game against QPR has sold out at SMS which is what I was referring to.

You're wrong it hasn't. Interest in games against QPR is similar to fixtures with Reading.

[The Kraken]

Not playing wise but I think every game against QPR has sold out at SMS which is what I was referring to.

 

Saints have never played QPR at St. Mary's in the Premier League.

[Turkish]

You're wrong it hasn't. Interest in games against QPR is similar to fixtures with Reading.

 

Less I'd say. Especially as Reading is a local derby.

[RedArmy]

 

I think SMS is just about the right size, it wont sell out against the Wigans/Norwichs/Readings, will be on the verge of selling out against the Evertons/Newcastles/QPRs and will sell out against the top 7-8.

Pardon? You belong in that first group.

[Flyer]

It really hasn't.

 

It was just the away end that sold out then and QPR could take more fans if needed as we took over 3k in the NPC every time., anyway the point remains a bigger stadium isnt needed.

[Turkish]

It was just the away end that sold out then and QPR could take more fans if needed as we took over 3k in the NPC every time., anyway the point remains a bigger stadium isnt needed.

 

You didn't. The game I refered to you brought about 2,000tops. Block 43 was empty.

[CB Fry]

Only to you and few others.... two points, yes it might be a little surprizing that we have not sold out... but you state yourself that we are talking about adequate capacity 'now' - and we could debate what impact the current economic climes has on that till teh cows come home, as we could ticket prices, which as you only seem to repsond with insul one liners is pretty pointless...

 

But thankfully, most businesses with any common sense plan ahead and consider 'potential' based on more than just today's gate - Considering planning takes several years, + construction time, finance and a robust evaluation/modelling of likely revenue (based on a number of pricing models/scenarios) versus costs, we are talking about a 5 year process - not building tomorrow for 45k next season.... If its predicted/modelled that in 5 years the club wants to be top 8, has finance in place to support that through player aquisition etc, and that with that we could sell out 50% games at 40-42k, and the sums add up to a positive revenue stream once the build cost is factored in, then planning NOW is what they will do. They wont wait 5 years and only start when we have had 3-4 years of ST waiting lists.

 

I think Cortese has a bit of the 'Apple' mentality about him. You can increase demand, by offering a product that more people WILL want, rather than accepting that current demand is the maximum. The current demand is based on many factors and product/price value NOW. Planning will be based on the factors that determine demand under different circumstances/product/price value - Getting that model to be accurate is the trickey part in the go/no-go decision making process.

 

I just never understood why you and a few others were so anti fans discussing the merits or issues around all this... if you dont like it, just ignore it surely... or yu just look like a miserable bunch of ****s.

 

 

Cortese does have the Apple mentality but not the way you think....Apple is not about selling absolutely as many smartphones/tablets as humanely possible, otherwise they could just pile Ipads up in Asda and chuck em out for £150 each. Apple is about maintaining price premiums and creating desire through great design, great product and great advertising/PR.

 

It is about as far from your let's build a stadium.....then slash the prices to fill it as you can possibly get.

 

You can go on and on and on and on about this idea build it/slash ticket prices to fill it but nothing whatsoever, nothing at all, nothing, Nicola Cortese has done at this football club suggests he is ever going to do that. We had between 6 and 8,000 seats at every match last year that he could have sold on the flexible pricing model. Ship em out at a tenner each. Did he do it? Did he hell.

 

You say businesses with "common sense" plan ahead, who is saying they don't or they shouldn't? Maybe, just maybe, the forecast gates for the next three years is going to be somewhere around the 32,000 mark. Maybe, just maybe season tickets will go from 21,000 to 21,800 to 22,500 over the next three years. You can happily play line graphs all day and just draw lines into the sky of 42,000 gates but I think that is total pie in the sky and nothing in our history suggests we can get close to those gates, even if we finished top ten five years in a row I don't think we would do that.

 

Once you've finished 8th twice in a row, the following season is really not that exciting. Not 10,000 more fans exciting.

 

A couple of final points:

 

 

Not sure how someone continually talking about multi-million pound investment with the express intention to devalue the core product and reduce revenue per item can claim the high ground of "common sense". Shoot for the moon all you like son, but don't dress it up as common sense or some kind of business plan.

 

And I am discussing the merits and the issues around this. Thinking we won't any time soon be filling 42,000 seats is a perfectly valid stance to take. The fact you see that as a "negative" or "anti-Saints" or not common sense is your problem.

[The Kraken]

You didn't. The game I refered to you brought about 2,000tops. Block 43 was empty.

 

:lol:

 

Flyer making up utter nonsense up to justify his assertion that QPR as a big as Newcastle and Everton!

 

Its like reading a West London version of MLG.

 

:lol:

[Gordon Mockles]

Great result today, but a real disappointment with the attendance. Lots of people pre-game saying "it'll sell out no problem", yet we quite clearly didn't (again). Villa games in the Premier League have been very well supported in past, so what a shame to see so many empty seats again today.

 

Hopefully the result today will get the crowds enthused for the Fulham game.

 

Is that really the official stat? Wow! I have skills. I am the attendance guessing mack daddy of St Mary's. Despite my fan guessing excitement, that's not a bad attendance. Villa brought a lot, admittedly.

 

30, 750 was my guess Sat. Not sure why I even went for a 750. Usually work in 500s. I have skills! I have got it so close, almost spot on, so many times. We should start an attendance guessing thread from within the stadium...if the networks weren't so overloaded that texts could actually get out!

 

Having said that, now I've made a point on my past success at attendance estimates from visual judgement, I'll probably be miles out in future.

 

I thought the crowd were great Saturday. They did Nige proud!

[hypochondriac]

:lol:

 

Flyer making up utter nonsense up to justify his assertion that QPR as a big as Newcastle and Everton!

 

Its like reading a West London version of MLG.

 

:lol:

 

Oh dear. And to think I defended him last week...

[Frank's cousin]

Cortese does have the Apple mentality but not the way you think....Apple is not about selling absolutely as many smartphones/tablets as humanely possible, otherwise they could just pile Ipads up in Asda and chuck em out for £150 each. Apple is about maintaining price premiums and creating desire through great design, great product and great advertising/PR.

 

It is about as far from your let's build a stadium.....then slash the prices to fill it as you can possibly get.

 

You can go on and on and on and on about this idea build it/slash ticket prices to fill it but nothing whatsoever, nothing at all, nothing, Nicola Cortese has done at this football club suggests he is ever going to do that. We had between 6 and 8,000 seats at every match last year that he could have sold on the flexible pricing model. Ship em out at a tenner each. Did he do it? Did he hell.

 

You say businesses with "common sense" plan ahead, who is saying they don't or they shouldn't? Maybe, just maybe, the forecast gates for the next three years is going to be somewhere around the 32,000 mark. Maybe, just maybe season tickets will go from 21,000 to 21,800 to 22,500 over the next three years. You can happily play line graphs all day and just draw lines into the sky of 42,000 gates but I think that is total pie in the sky and nothing in our history suggests we can get close to those gates, even if we finished top ten five years in a row I don't think we would do that.

 

Once you've finished 8th twice in a row, the following season is really not that exciting. Not 10,000 more fans exciting.

 

A couple of final points:

 

 

Not sure how someone continually talking about multi-million pound investment with the express intention to devalue the core product and reduce revenue per item can claim the high ground of "common sense". Shoot for the moon all you like son, but don't dress it up as common sense or some kind of business plan.

 

And I am discussing the merits and the issues around this. Thinking we won't any time soon be filling 42,000 seats is a perfectly valid stance to take. The fact you see that as a "negative" or "anti-Saints" or not common sense is your problem.

 

Fair enough, you have finally argiued your case/point in a balnaced and reasoned way - not sure why you did not before - I actually agree with some of your points, with one exception, where you state I am for 'slashing prices' - this is not what I have been suggesting in teh context you mention.

 

I agree with what you say about ensuring the brand etc. Also I have neer suggested that Cortese would ever adopt the broader price concept I have been suggesting, merely using it as a point to illustrate how expansion could help generate demand and acess to a broader demographic by allowing for say a financial model to be applied such as many German clubs - whilst ensureing that overall revenue is increasedto more than cover the investment needs. Whether NC ever adopts such an approach was not part of the argument, rather an example of how a business case can be made for earlier development than some are suggesting.

 

I appreciate, as Kracken also pointed out that there is no eveidence to suggest NC would contemplate such a model as he never reduced pricing when we had cappacity to spare in L1 or the NPC, nor the recent friendlies. I also understand why, bith in terms as you suggust of the brand value maintenance, but also because we had no need to. However, I believe NC is pretty sharp and will look at many models, brand value, and consider/evaluate all possibilties before they make any decsions. You may be right and there is no desire to offer a broader price range, or they mey look at the Bayern model and agree it might be feasible - All I have been trying to convey is that you can make a good business case for an earlier development if you explore how other clubs have gone about this and the impact on attendance alternative models have had on attendance - and no one would argue the Bayern brand has been erroded by the the 8000 odd 180 Euro STs? OK so those prices are offset by other STs at 1500 euros and the local wealth means there is demand at that price point, but I dont believe the principle is not worth evaluating?

 

I guess the reason why I am also quite positive about this is that if we chose to believe NC, that this is a long term project, a genuine desire to be more comptetive at the higher end of the league (whatever our belief about how realistic that aim may be), then the infrastructure development will be very much part of such a plan, and would that be derailed by a bad first season in the prem, or lower than anticipated attendances in no small part contributed to by the current economic climate?

 

Finally, it is also about Dreams and aspiration, and I like many do get the rush of blood to the head when we hear the bold statement of development and top 6 targets... its what being a fan is sometimes about, the suspension of realism that goives us a boost etc - and then NC does things that suddenly make it look like there is a cahnce its not just all hot air - 12mil+ on ramirez, 30mil in the transfer window... etc - yes its still a work in progress, defensively for sure, but in 3 years - bottom of L1 to spending 30mil + in the prem in one window - whatever we think about the signings, that is some committment and progress, beyond what anyof us woul;d have imagined on the day Markus took over - so its no surprize that some of us believe the next steps are likely to happen at an equally agressive pace?

 

Anyway, appreciate your post and POV. Dont mind disaggreeing with you or others, but we should be able to remain civil with it.

[Neil]

Interesting that Norwich considering expanding when they become 'an established premier league side', whatever that means.

 

Commissioned a study from UEA

Study is independent and not based on instinct/intuition!

Expansion by 7,000 (to 34,200) is viable according to UEA study, but would cost £20m according to NCFC chief exec

Capacity is currently 27,200, last season's average crowd was 26,606 (or 97.8% full)

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-19703856

[Turkish]

Interesting that Norwich considering expanding when they become 'an established premier league side', whatever that means.

 

Commissioned a study from UEA

Study is independent and not based on instinct/intuition!

Expansion by 7,000 (to 34,200) is viable according to UEA study, but would cost £20m according to NCFC chief exec

Capacity is currently 27,200, last season's average crowd was 26,606 (or 97.8% full)

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-19703856

 

Norwich have had to cap season tickets at 22,000. With 10% of capacity going to away fans as is required and the % which the FA had made clubs make available on a match by match basis, it's fair to say Norwich are right to consider expansion. When we are in the position to cap season tickets and are 98% full for a few seasons in a row then we will be.

[Junction 9]

It's tricky isn't it? The stadium may well be big enough, then again it may not.

 

I just don't know what to think. I haven't been this confused since that sleepover I went to when I was 13.

[melmacian_saint]

And that was when we were crap and had no investment!

 

But we were established in the Prem. From the most fanatic supporter to any tourist in the city, they knew Saints were in the PL. The plunge into League One and admin got us out of the lights for long enough for some locals to even stop checking on our scores or visiting SMS.

[Frank's cousin]

The point is no one can predict accurately what our potential is - as with all clubs, interset and attendance rises and falls with a combination of level of success, division, quality of enetertainment, signings, cost/price of tickets, economic times, satisfaction with the clubs directors/manager/players etc... loads of variables - for us toi try and guage what the max is is anyones guess - 35k? 40k?

 

Yes we seem to have 50k+ who went to wembley and could have sold 60K+ for Cardiff back in 2003, but many of these are folk who go for teh occasion - the question is how many of those 'extra' fans would be converted to 10 games a season + if we were top 8 regularly and in Europe - I remmeber the unofficial record in the friendly against Bayern - a £10 entry and squeezing them .... so how do you figure out what we could attract?

 

Just seems logical to speculate that especially in current climate, cost is keeping a fair few away.

[ollysaints1]

Cant believe people on here are saying a crowd of nearly 31,000 is a poor turn out?. you realise that was pretty much our average attendance in the premier league throughout our entire time at St Marys. 31,000 is pretty much as good as it can get for us, so stop moaning.

[The Kraken]

Cant believe people on here are saying a crowd of nearly 31,000 is a poor turn out?. you realise that was pretty much our average attendance in the premier league throughout our entire time at St Marys. 31,000 is pretty much as good as it can get for us, so stop moaning.

 

31,000 is not as good at it can get for us. As our last 3 previous home gates in the PL against Aston Villa testify.

[Flyer]

:lol:

 

Flyer making up utter nonsense up to justify his assertion that QPR as a big as Newcastle and Everton!

 

Its like reading a West London version of MLG.

 

:lol:

It seems I was right, despite all the **** taking.

Even your own team put QPR in the same category.

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?39182-Match-day-prices&p=1423502#post1423502

 

Match Categories

 

- Category A: Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Manchester City and Manchester United (5)

- Category B: Aston Villa, Everton, Newcastle, QPR, Reading, Tottenham, and West Ham (7)

- Category C: Fulham, Norwich, Stoke, Sunderland, Swansea, West Brom and Wigan (7)

 

QPR in the same category as Newcastle and Everton, the only one I got wrong was Reading.

[The Kraken]

It seems I was right, despite all the **** taking.

Even your own team put QPR in the same category.

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?39182-Match-day-prices&p=1423502#post1423502

 

Match Categories

 

- Category A: Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Manchester City and Manchester United (5)

- Category B: Aston Villa, Everton, Newcastle, QPR, Reading, Tottenham, and West Ham (7)

- Category C: Fulham, Norwich, Stoke, Sunderland, Swansea, West Brom and Wigan (7)

 

QPR in the same category as Newcastle and Everton, the only one I got wrong was Reading.

 

Christ, are you still getting at it about this?! And using Saints categories of tickets to "prove" that QPR are a similar size club to Everton & Newcastle?!

 

You really are a West London version of MLG.

[Thedelldays]

They are in the same bracket as reading.... Make of that what you will

[CB Fry]

The point is no one can predict accurately what our potential is - as with all clubs, interset and attendance rises and falls with a combination of level of success, division, quality of enetertainment, signings, cost/price of tickets, economic times, satisfaction with the clubs directors/manager/players etc... loads of variables - for us toi try and guage what the max is is anyones guess - 35k? 40k?

 

Yes we seem to have 50k+ who went to wembley and could have sold 60K+ for Cardiff back in 2003, but many of these are folk who go for teh occasion - the question is how many of those 'extra' fans would be converted to 10 games a season + if we were top 8 regularly and in Europe - I remmeber the unofficial record in the friendly against Bayern - a £10 entry and squeezing them .... so how do you figure out what we could attract?

 

Just seems logical to speculate that especially in current climate, cost is keeping a fair few away.

 

 

You can predict demand, but when you have a fit for purpose modern football stadium currently selling out only for the visits of the mega-clubs, then there is little need for vague "prediction" of "potential". What is needed is quantifiable demand outstripping supply - games selling out weeks (or even just a week) in advance, a waiting list for season tickets and so on. Not just a prediction based on what we might have sold for the FA Cup final...if we are plucking random outlier attendances out of the air, why not tonight - we only sold 10,000. An equally irrelevant attendance.

 

What cannot be forgotten is extending the ground is a multimillion pound commitment and something, once done, that cannot be reversed. And something that, if we had done it this summer would have left us with, what, seven, eight, nine, ten, twelve thousand empty seats for the Wigan and Villa games. Your thoughts on the matter read as if extending the ground is like borrowing next doors patio chairs for your own house party. A jolly nice thing to do and lets see how it goes, fingers crossed.

 

So with that in mind, it really is not "anyone's guess". It is something we need to do with a rock solid business case.

Edited 25 September, 2012 by CB Fry

[Sour Mash]

It seems I was right, despite all the **** taking.

Even your own team put QPR in the same category.

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?39182-Match-day-prices&p=1423502#post1423502

 

Match Categories

 

- Category A: Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Manchester City and Manchester United (5)

- Category B: Aston Villa, Everton, Newcastle, QPR, Reading, Tottenham, and West Ham (7)

- Category C: Fulham, Norwich, Stoke, Sunderland, Swansea, West Brom and Wigan (7)

 

QPR in the same category as Newcastle and Everton, the only one I got wrong was Reading.

No, you are still wrong. Go back and read your own original posts.