Badger cull petition

[Guest Dark Sotonic Mills]

http://www.badger.org.uk/_Attachments/Resources/16_S4.pdf

 

"A major new report1 published on 2 October 2006 in the Proceedings of the National Academy of

Sciences, the United States’ premier scientific journal, has revealed that cattle rapidly infect badgers

with bovine TB."

 

So, to sum up. Cattle are giving badgers TB so the answer is to kill the badgers? I hope to Christ that the DEFRA scientists who are calling for a cull don't ever get transferred to the Department of Health. Imagine the chaos: "Oh dear, there's an outbreak of Leigonnaires' in Birmingham; better kill all those infected, after all it's their fault for being victims".

 

Right.

[rooney]

So, to sum up. Cattle are giving badgers TB so the answer is to kill the badgers? I hope to Christ that the DEFRA scientists who are calling for a cull don't ever get transferred to the Department of Health. Imagine the chaos: "Oh dear, there's an outbreak of Leigonnaires' in Birmingham; better kill all those infected, after all it's their fault for being victims".

 

Right.

 

Just do not believe it .Why then has TB in cattle increased dramatically since the badger population has increased dramatically and there are less Dairy herds than there were 15 years ago.? The compensation paid to farmers is just not sustainable. If all the badger lovers on this thread are happy that their taxes will continue to increase year on year and their benefits reduce, simply vote to stop the cull. Things are bad enough now in this country without making them worse.

 

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[badgerx16]

Just do not believe it .

 

Have you read any of the links, and are therefore basing your belief on an objective assessment, or just assuming that the Government are being straight about everything ?

[dubai_phil]

So, to sum up. Cattle are giving badgers TB so the answer is to kill the badgers? I hope to Christ that the DEFRA scientists who are calling for a cull don't ever get transferred to the Department of Health. Imagine the chaos: "Oh dear, there's an outbreak of Leigonnaires' in Birmingham; better kill all those infected, after all it's their fault for being victims".

 

Right.

 

But they are Brummies. Maybe that's not such a bad idea?

[Clapham Saint]

So, to sum up. Cattle are giving badgers TB so the answer is to kill the badgers? I hope to Christ that the DEFRA scientists who are calling for a cull don't ever get transferred to the Department of Health. Imagine the chaos: "Oh dear, there's an outbreak of Leigonnaires' in Birmingham; better kill all those infected, after all it's their fault for being victims".

 

Right.

 

It doesn;t make it fair on the badgers, but for the same reason you try and kill malaria transferring mosquitoes I'd Imagine.

[rooney]

Have you read any of the links, and are therefore basing your belief on an objective assessment, or just assuming that the Government are being straight about everything ?

 

I spent nearly 30 years working in the industry in the S.W and latterly regularly met Ministry of Agriculture Vets who reported how the disease was rapidly taking over Dairy Cattle. I also met with many heart broken Farmers and their families, who have lost thousands of pounds and some their livelihoods because of this wretched illness. We all have our opinions and I respect others, but something has to be done quickly now. As I have said before, if you are happy to pay increased taxes year on year and higher food costs, then vote against the cull, but please do not complain when a pint of milk is higher than a pint of beer and a steak is dearer than caviare.

 

And to the person who said that badgers were gentle animals, I wish he was there when my wife found her two 20 year old geese, with their hearts ripped out and the badger still lying with them in the goose house. Brock did the same with my neighbours chickens but fortunately he was stopped the next night for killing any more , in the only humain way known.

[Clapham Saint]

Does anybody else keep mis-reading the thread title as "Badger Cull Competition"?

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

But the Government's line is that this is the most effective, if not the only, way to control TB in cattle. This is a blatant untruth. A cull of the badger population will not significantly limit outbreaks, as the documents referenced earlier in this thread show. Scotland enjoys it's status primarily because of the controls on the shipment of herds and veterinary screening.

 

So then Badgerx16 how do the 'controls on the shipment of herds and veterinary screening' vary from England?

[badgerx16]

So then Badgerx16 how do the 'controls on the shipment of herds and veterinary screening' vary from England?

 

"To protect its OTF status, in addition to the existing pre- and post-movement TB testing arrangements for direct moves of cattle from high TB incidence areas in England and Wales to Scotland (or for moves from high incidence areas in England and Wales to Scotland via a market), there is now a new requirement for bovine animals of 42 days of age or more, from low TB incidence areas of England (3 and 4 yearly tested parishes) to be skin tested before movement to Scotland unless:

 

 

• they have spent their whole lives in low incidence areas; or
  

 

• they are being sent direct to slaughter in Scotland.
  

This new requirement came into force on 28 February 2010. "

 

http://archive.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/diseases/atoz/tb/control/scotland.htm

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

"To protect its OTF status, in addition to the existing pre- and post-movement TB testing arrangements for direct moves of cattle from high TB incidence areas in England and Wales to Scotland (or for moves from high incidence areas in England and Wales to Scotland via a market), there is now a new requirement for bovine animals of 42 days of age or more, from low TB incidence areas of England (3 and 4 yearly tested parishes) to be skin tested before movement to Scotland unless:

 

 

• they have spent their whole lives in low incidence areas; or
  

 

• they are being sent direct to slaughter in Scotland.
  

This new requirement came into force on 28 February 2010. "

 

http://archive.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/diseases/atoz/tb/control/scotland.htm

 

So bascally if you have a lot of badgers then you cannot move cattle to where there are no badgers.

[bridge too far]

Very slightly away from the main thrust, but I'm watching the Andrew Marr programme about the History of the World right now and he's just mentioned that, as soon as civilisations began to farm animals, humans started to get TB

[Saint_clark]

Signed. Just under 6000 required now.

[badgerx16]

So bascally if you have a lot of badgers then you cannot move cattle to where there are no badgers.

 

Quite possibly, but there are badgers in Scotland :

"Although Scotland does not support the high densities of badgers that are to be found in the south-west of England, the species is quite common particularly in the lower-lying, more fertile parts of the country. While the Scottish badger population overall is probably stable, there are areas where badgers appear to be on the increase. There are no accurate figures for the total population in Scotland, but it has been estimated to be around 25,000."

( http://www.snh.org.uk/publications/on-line/wildlife/badgersanddevelopment/biology.asp )

 

"The results suggest that there are between 7300 and 11200 badger main setts in Scotland. It is estimated that approximately 7.1-10.4% of 1-km squares in Scotland contain at least one main sett, that approximately 12.7-17.2% of squares contain at least one active sett of some kind and that approximately 17.2-23.2% of squares contain some form of current badger activity."

"The highest estimated densities were found in Borders and Lothian, with moderately high estimated densities in Fife, Grampian and Dumfries and Galloway. Estimated densities in Central region, Highland region and Tayside were much lower, with intermediate estimated densities in Strathclyde. "

( http://www.scottishbadgers.org.uk/newsite/downloads/SBDS%20Results%20Summary.pdf )

[RonManager]

Chris Packham ‏@ChrisGPackham

101898 ! Brilliant . Massive thank you to all those who took the time to sign . Brilliant !

[Pugwash]

Surely a better and probably more effective way of controlling the problem?

 

http://www.dorsetwildlifetrust.org.uk/vaccination.html

 

http://www.wildlifetrusts.org/news/2012/03/20/badger-vaccination-take-place-wales

Edited 24 September, 2012 by Pugwash

[Ken Tone]

But Badger, they would not get TB so much - like in Scotland. That is the whole point of the cull.

 

From where do you get this idea that badgers are rare in Scotland? The only live ones I've ever seen were in Scotland!

 

http://www.snh.org.uk/publications/on-line/wildlife/badgersanddevelopment/biology.asp

DISTRIBUTION AND STATUS

 

Britain is a stronghold of the Eurasian badger, which occurs from Ireland and Iberia in the west, through continental Europe and Asia, to Japan in the east. Although Scotland does not support the high densities of badgers that are to be found in the south-west of England, the species is quite common particularly in the lower-lying, more fertile parts of the country. While the Scottish badger population overall is probably stable, there are areas where badgers appear to be on the increase. There are no accurate figures for the total population in Scotland, but it has been estimated to be around 25,000.

[Ken Tone]

The debate here is surely whether or not a cull will actually achieve a significant decrease in bovine TB? If that were universally accepted, I think nearly everyone would say go ahead.

 

But there is no accepted fact here and indeed much (most?) of the scientific evidence suggests that a cull will not be effective. Some evidence even suggest it will make matters worse as it will cause movement of the remaining badger population into fresh areas .It is a political decision, not a scientific one.

[badgerx16]

The simple fact is that we are debating BOVINE TB; if we eradicated all badgers there would then be a clamour to extend the culling of deer, which also harbour the disease. In fact most mammals can to some extent be carriers, and this is, of course, ignoring the main place to find it, and the initial point of infection from where it started to spread between species - cattle !

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

From where do you get this idea that badgers are rare in Scotland? The only live ones I've ever seen were in Scotland!

 

http://www.snh.org.uk/publications/on-line/wildlife/badgersanddevelopment/biology.asp

DISTRIBUTION AND STATUS

 

Britain is a stronghold of the Eurasian badger, which occurs from Ireland and Iberia in the west, through continental Europe and Asia, to Japan in the east. Although Scotland does not support the high densities of badgers that are to be found in the south-west of England, the species is quite common particularly in the lower-lying, more fertile parts of the country. While the Scottish badger population overall is probably stable, there are areas where badgers appear to be on the increase. There are no accurate figures for the total population in Scotland, but it has been estimated to be around 25,000.

 

 

They are a lot rarer than in England and Wales and that is responsible for the varying TB rates. The badger population has exploded in England and Wales in the last few decades and inevitably when you have overpopulation you have more disease - hence the parrallel jump in cattle with TB. Last year 26000 cattle were slaughtered yet one of the key sources of the disease the Badger is left untouched. What is the point of culling one without the other? I am not a scientist but if that is what they are reccomending then why ignore it and continue to sit on our hands. This is crippling the industry and those communities that rely on it.

 

I don't accept that it is a political decision because ultimately it will always be deeply unpopular with the public. It is quite emotive.

 

I would subscribe to the suggestion that if you have a 'healthy' badger population then by culling them all you are doing is exposing yourself to newcomers that may have disease. Maybe badger populations need to be 'managed'. I think that by allowing badger numbers to expand unchecked this has other implications for other populations. I would again suggest that hedgehog numbers have been hit hard as have bees.

[badgerx16]

So why not inoculate cattle rather than killing badgers ?

 

( Edit : they do this in Ethiopia so why not here ? )

Edited 26 September, 2012 by badgerx16

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

So why not inoculate cattle rather than killing badgers ?

 

( Edit : they do this in Ethiopia so why not here ? )

 

Is that really a long term solution to the problem. Ultimately it is in the interests of Badgers that the issue is addressed. We should be working towards a healthy cattle and badger population. Badgers are victims of TB as well.

[badgerx16]

Is that really a long term solution to the problem. Ultimately it is in the interests of Badgers that the issue is addressed. We should be working towards a healthy cattle and badger population. Badgers are victims of TB as well.

 

http://www.bovinetb.co.uk/article.php?article_id=23

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

http://www.bovinetb.co.uk/article.php?article_id=23

 

I found that quite interesting particularly that the physical symptoms of TB in cattle are rare.

 

I still think that the core of the argument is that a smaller badger population is key to having a healthier one. I also saw this on that site;

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/23/badger-cull-vital-bovine-tb?newsfeed=true

[badgerx16]

I found that quite interesting particularly that the physical symptoms of TB in cattle are rare.

 

I still think that the core of the argument is that a smaller badger population is key to having a healthier one. I also saw this on that site;

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/23/badger-cull-vital-bovine-tb?newsfeed=true

 

If there is a need to 'manage' the population for it's own good then admit it, culling in itself isn't controversial for other species, but here the Government are dressing it up as something it is not. There is also an interesting link on the page you quote :

"Badger cull divides Tories

Vaccination better method to stop bovine TB infection in cattle, says thinktank"

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/mar/26/badger-cull-bovine-tb-cattle-vaccination?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

Edited 26 September, 2012 by badgerx16

[Ken Tone]

Another link worth reading

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/jun/25/badger-cull-high-court-challenge?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

 

As I said before if there is clear evidence to support a cull as being effective, then fair enough, but it would appear that there is only opinion, not universally accepted fact.

 

Also intersting that the Welsh goverment has changed from a planned cull to a policy of vaccination, citing 'scientific evidence' as their reason -- though of course those in favour of culling, dispute the evidence and sayinit was realy a political decision. As I said there is no universally accepted fact.

[Ken Tone]

I found that quite interesting particularly that the physical symptoms of TB in cattle are rare.

 

I still think that the core of the argument is that a smaller badger population is key to having a healthier one. I also saw this on that site;

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/23/badger-cull-vital-bovine-tb?newsfeed=true

 

An interesting approach. Killing makes the few survivors healthier! It's a bit like saying we should kill lots of people in Africa to reduce malaria, which it probably would do, but I doubt that this would be seen as a sensible or humane way of achieving this. (I am not of course suggesting that badgers are as important as people, merely drawing an extreme analogy to make the point)

[badgerx16]

I am not of course suggesting that badgers are as important as people....

 

Badgers are people too !

[Dimond Geezer]

So why not inoculate cattle rather than killing badgers ?

 

( Edit : they do this in Ethiopia so why not here ? )

 

I believe it's currently illegal under EU law.

[Ken Tone]

I believe it's currently illegal under EU law.[/quote

 

http://www.bovinetb.co.uk/article.php?article_id=23

"The only problem is that vaccinated animals show up as positive reactors when tested. So, unfortunately, at the moment vaccination for cattle would be illegal under European law! The reason why EU legislation currently prohibits the use of bovine tuberculosis vaccines is because injectable vaccine for bovine tuberculosis in cattle interferes with the current tuberculin skin test and any vaccinated animal would show up as a reactor (although we understand that a diagnostic test was developed in 2007, funded by DEFRA, that could distinguish between cattle that have been vaccinated against bTB from those that had been infected with the bacteria that causes bTB). However, the UK could seek a derogation from EU law, especially as exports are such a minute part of the cattle trade."

 

 

Btw the test itself is only about 80% accurate apparently, so lots of healthy cattle are slaughtered each year, and presumably lots of sick ones or, much worse, carriers with no symptoms are missed!

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

An interesting approach. Killing makes the few survivors healthier! It's a bit like saying we should kill lots of people in Africa to reduce malaria, which it probably would do, but I doubt that this would be seen as a sensible or humane way of achieving this. (I am not of course suggesting that badgers are as important as people, merely drawing an extreme analogy to make the point)

 

As any stockman will tell you, higher stocking rates inevitably result in increased disease rates. Nature throws up disease as a natural mechanism to keep populations down. I would far rather have less badgers which are healthy than a lot of badgers that are full of TB. Working towards a healthy badger population should be what everyone should be unified on.

[crouch mask replica]

A question for those who signed the petition.

 

When you buy/eat beef, cheese, butter, milk etc., do you check whether the country of origin allows the killing/culling of native species which are carriers of btb ?.

[badgerx16]

A question for those who signed the petition.

 

When you buy/eat beef, cheese, butter, milk etc., do you check whether the country of origin allows the killing/culling of native species which are carriers of btb ?.

 

Only buy British....

[RonManager]

A view from a farmer in the Forest of Dean, one of the culling areas.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/sep/28/badger-cull-bovine-tb?CMP=twt_fd

[RonManager]

Cull starts tomorrow down my way.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/oct/13/badger-cull-mindless

[laughing now]

As any stockman will tell you, higher stocking rates inevitably result in increased disease rates. Nature throws up disease as a natural mechanism to keep populations down. I would far rather have less badgers which are healthy than a lot of badgers that are full of TB. Working towards a healthy badger population should be what everyone should be unified on.

 

So you are arguing that farmers should keep less cows as well?

[Manuel]

Buying goats milk as a protest is an option for consumers.

[RonManager]

Cull postponed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20039697#TWEET298443

[buctootim]

The last time this was done, in the mid 1980s the cost of the cull was 5 x the cost of compensation paid to farmers. So the cull costs taxpayers more, devastates badger populations and reduces farmers income.

[ALWAYS_SFC]

Cull postponed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20039697#TWEET298443

 

Good news this....hope it turns out to be permanent

[bridge too far]

Good news this....hope it turns out to be permanent

 

Quite agree - but oh dear me, yet another omnishambles