Hillsborough

[laughing now]

It is disgraceful how the Police have covered this up, but also pretty sad that the whole force is being tarred with the same brush by many. On the day, I suspect there were many who did above their call of duty.

The Sun did apologise, we should accept it and move on.

I do not feel all the Liverpool fans were above blame, the gates were opened and there were many outside without tickets, how many pushed in without thought we will never know. The sad thing is that decent football fans who got in to the ground died needlessly, let us hope that the people responsible do get their day in court.

 

Agree with this but it isn't going to be easy to id the people who were responsible on the day, as said above many did their duty or above (and some of those who were seen to 'fail' couldn't cope with an unprecedented situation). The problem was organisation & leadership not the copper on the ground. And THAT is why the senior guys wanted a cover up. Risk is the coopers who opened the gates to relieve very real issues outside or the coppers watching the terraces from pitch side get unfairly hammered whilst the senior guys get away with it again.

 

As with Watergate the cover up (and associated smear campaign) indicates who to really go after.

[The Kraken]

Whilst I am pleased they have found the truth, I found the immediate talk about financial compensation pretty distasteful. I can honestly say that if I were in that situation, compensation would be the absolute last thing on my mind. I would hope that is the same for the families affected.

 

Who is talking about financial compensation?

 

The only goals I've heard so far are to overturn the verdicts of accidental death, and then pursue criminal proceedingg. I've heard nothing yet about civil cases being brought.

[The9]

I'm not convinced that Hatton ever had any proper political convictions, judging from my experience of the bloke. If he ever was militant, he shows little of that these days. You'd have a hard time separating him from any middle-aged bloke overly concerned with outward appearance.

 

You're dead on with the rest of your analysis though. People already had their ideas about Liverpool. It is impossible not to, really. Noisy city with a distinctive accent and a long history of protest. And as you say, portrayal in the media not exactly balanced.

 

A point I often make, and that you've proved for me, is that outside of the area, Merseyside is synonymous with Liverpool. Merseyside is a big place and while some of the outlying areas are pretty much Liverpool overflows, there are also large parts of it that just aren't scouse at all. Southport, St. Helens, Widnes - all part of Merseyside - but definitely not Liverpool. Even large parts of the Wirral (plazzy scousers) are not scouse.

 

Liverpool catches the headlines for anything that happens in Merseyside, which is a little unfair in my book. No one has a go at Southampton if something kicks off in Andover, or even Fareham.

 

Having lived and worked in Southport (Lancs, thanks ) in 1999 and went out with a scouse bird for a couple of years in the early 2000s, I know what you mean, but then that place has plenty of wannabe scousers as well as legit sandgrounders.

 

I'm not entirely sure the reflex of your point is true, as it suggests people outside the area would regard St Helens and Widnes (and Runcorn, where I have also had the delight of the expressways near the ex's mum's house) as "Liverpool", that's not something I've really noticed. I did use Merseyside as a synonym for Liverpool though admittedly, but that was just to mix the proper noun up a bit.

[Noodles34]

It is disgraceful how the Police have covered this up, but also pretty sad that the whole force is being tarred with the same brush by many. On the day, I suspect there were many who did above their call of duty.

The Sun did apologise, we should accept it and move on.

I do not feel all the Liverpool fans were above blame, the gates were opened and there were many outside without tickets, how many pushed in without thought we will never know. The sad thing is that decent football fans who got in to the ground died needlessly, let us hope that the people responsible do get their day in court.

 

accept it and move on, yeah, lets forget it ever happened. You and Alpine saint can live in your cosy little world whereby anything that does not directly affect you matters not, a much ado about nothing. But then some cretin writes some post 9/11 stuff about how awful that was. Maybe those victims' families should accept it and move on.

As for the Sun, apology, dont make me laugh, 23 years later, maybe Ian Brady should just apologise and then Mrs Bennet can accept it and move on, buy hey, no, she cant because she went to the grave not knowing.

[The9]

If this is going to get political then people need to have a look at the actions of Jack Straw. An investigation looked at it in 1997 and he failed to act. I dont recall any Labour politican hounding Thatcher or Major over this and to his credit Milliband has not made party political points, like some on here.It was the families and the people of Liverpool alone who exposed this, politicans of all persuasions were just not bothered enough (Andy Burnham and a few others apart).

 

The culture of 1989, particulary with the Torys, but the whole establishment of the time, including Labour figures, was the Football fans were hooligans. Football was not the happy clappy sport it is now.

 

Until the middle classes got into football thanks to all seaters and Gazza's tears at Italia 90 there was no political capital whatsoever in supporting a demonised section of society. The only lefties questioning it at all were WSC, and to most people reading their stuff at the time it just was more of the same from a drum they were beating on a regular basis about the treatment of fans (alcohol bans, ID cards, electric fences, police tactics, etc).

[The9]

accept it and move on, yeah, lets forget it ever happened. You and Alpine saint can live in your cosy little world whereby anything that does not directly affect you matters not, a much ado about nothing. But then some cretin writes some post 9/11 stuff about how awful that was. Maybe those victims' families should accept it and move on.

As for the Sun, apology, dont make me laugh, 23 years later, maybe Ian Brady should just apologise and then Mrs Bennet can accept it and move on, buy hey, no, she cant because she went to the grave not knowing.

 

That's a pretty random rant ! I agree with OldNick that there were probably police who saved lives and similar heroic acts - but the problem is that for at least 35 minutes after the gate was opened, the majority were treating the fans in the Leppings Lane end as potential criminals. Placing a cordon across the halfway line to stop "fighting" which wasn't happening anywhere, and preventing the ambulances getting onto the pitch for the same reason were far more destructive techniques than any few heroic acts could compensate for.

 

Speaking of compensation, money for someone's life is always distasteful, but I think the compensation payments that have long since been paid out to the traumatised police officers are especially distasteful when compared to the insulting offers to the bereaved families. Both police and victims deserve the appropriate remedial action.

[Noodles34]

That's a pretty random rant ! I agree with OldNick that there were probably police who saved lives and similar heroic acts - but the problem is that for at least 35 minutes after the gate was opened, the majority were treating the fans in the Leppings Lane end as potential criminals. Placing a cordon across the halfway line to stop "fighting" which wasn't happening anywhere, and preventing the ambulances getting onto the pitch for the same reason were far more destructive techniques than any few heroic acts could compensate for.

 

Speaking of compensation, money for someone's life is always distasteful, but I think the compensation payments that have long since been paid out to the traumatised police officers are especially distasteful when compared to the insulting offers to the bereaved families. Both police and victims deserve the appropriate remedial action.

 

my point was in this 'move on' philosophy, the fact that The Sun said what it said after the event, and the fact that the families continued to fight the injustice that they felt was carried out. If they had moved on, the authorities, goverment and The Sun (not the only disgraceful paper mind) would have never apologised. But then you are up against morons like Alpine Saint who say stuff like this on another thread

"I'll leave it up to you if you think spending a couple of hours dwelling on national decline is overkill, considering Hillsborough hasnt been left in peace for quarter of a century... "

 

If I had lost a child at Hillsborough and knew that the events that happened had not been rightly reported, I wouldnt be moving on either.

[The Kraken]

my point was in this 'move on' philosophy, the fact that The Sun said what it said after the event, and the fact that the families continued to fight the injustice that they felt was carried out. If they had moved on, the authorities, goverment and The Sun (not the only disgraceful paper mind) would have never apologised. But then you are up against morons like Alpine Saint who say stuff like this on another thread

"I'll leave it up to you if you think spending a couple of hours dwelling on national decline is overkill, considering Hillsborough hasnt been left in peace for quarter of a century... "

 

If I had lost a child at Hillsborough and knew that the events that happened had not been rightly reported, I wouldnt be moving on either.

 

I shouldn't worry about Alpine's opinion in this matter; this thread has shown the unneccessarily bitter and resentful side to him. For someone who supposedly has children, I find it quite incredible that he takes such a contrary stance in this all. I also find it unbelieveably arrogant to think oneself qualified enough to tell families, who have spent 23 years campaigning to finally start to get some justice, that they now need to "move on", and what is best for them.

 

Thankfully most people recognise those types of comments for what they are, and they're best confined to the bin as they're barely worthy of debate. If that's his opinion, so be it, its clearly an firmly entrenched one so its probably best left be.

Edited 13 September, 2012 by The Kraken

[hypochondriac]

Who is talking about financial compensation?

 

The only goals I've heard so far are to overturn the verdicts of accidental death, and then pursue criminal proceedingg. I've heard nothing yet about civil cases being brought.

 

Yesterday on the BBC live text

[The Kraken]

Yesterday on the BBC live text

 

Who was saying it? From the families?

[hypochondriac]

Who was saying it? From the families?

 

Don't think so. May have been a Labour supporter.

[The Kraken]

Don't think so. May have been a Labour supporter.

 

Ah ok. I think it would be a bit of PR own goal to start pressing for a civil suit right now. And I'm sure the families want justice and to bring criminal prosections first; so that those responsible (for the cover-up especially, if not the actual events of the day) can finally be held to account for their actions.

 

I wouldn't judge the families at all if they choose to pursue a civil case and compensation; God knows that the Justice campaign must have wracked up hundreds of thousands of unpaid hours from the families just to get where we are today. The resident Austrian will probably be apoplectic with rage about such a suggestion, but it would sit fine with me (just so long as the criminal proceedings are given full priority, as I'm absolutely sure they will be).

[Thedelldays]

The report does not label Liverpool fans but does suggest that fan culture at the time was a factor that lead to that day.

 

Of course not excuse of the utter cock up by police but the report does suggest hooliganism and it's culture of the time had its part

[alpine_saint]

Also posted on the 9/11 thread..

 

I see no hypocrisy or contradiction whatsoever

 

The families of the Hillsborough victims were perfectly entitled to grieve and be outraged a what happened and the aftermath. But its a quarter of a century on now, and still they wont move on and let it lie, even with the enquiry's findings. They have allowed their lives to stand still from that point.

 

My points about 9/11 are perfectly valid, this tragedy affects a much larger amount of people, but even now, much less time after than with Hillsborough, there are signs that those affected have started moving on, like the massive scale-back this year in the remembrance ceremonies.

 

I also posted about BAE Systems, and the tragedy that is about to occur at a company that employs 40,000 British workers. I got sneering about being more concerned about that than Hillsborough. Well, sorry, 40,000 families are about to have their lives wrecked over a completely unnecessary exercise, just so a small select group can make a quick buck.

 

I would like to know why all of a sudden, the families of Hillsborough victims have a complete monopoly on grief and sympathy, and no-one is permitted to comment or observe anything else. This self-obsession and self-pity is what genuinely f**ks me off about some people from Liverpool. That and the fact that every policeman in the country is now tarred as a dishonest c**t.

 

I dont care if my opinion (not trolling) is a minority and I dont care if you all accuse me of some sort of Scouse vendetta and lacking sympathy for the victims families (its not true, I am just fed up with the proportion of it all).

 

Its quite clear to me that some of this is driven by a blantant anti-Tory agenda anyway, for example the comments linking the miners strike to Hillsborough.

 

This is my last post ont he subject; you can all continue to get outraged without my participation.

Edited 14 September, 2012 by alpine_saint

[badgerx16]

I think there are potentially 3 main areas that need to be 'reviewed' :

 

1) The inquest verdicts, which I think is possibly the main priority for the families - strike out the 'Accidental Death' verdicts and reconvene a Coroner's Court where the possibility of 'Unlawful Killing', or whatever other options are available, can be determined, especially on those victims that died after 15:15 pm.

2) Charge the implicated senior Police officers with perverting the course of justice. I think the actions of South Yorks Police to refer themselves to the PCC is the first step in this process.

3) Investigate the liabilities for negligence under the H&SE requirements, as it seems clear that much of the infrastructure in the stadium was known to be inadequate.

[solentstars]

I shouldn't worry about Alpine's opinion in this matter; this thread has shown the unneccessarily bitter and resentful side to him. For someone who supposedly has children, I find it quite incredible that he takes such a contrary stance in this all. I also find it unbelieveably arrogant to think oneself qualified enough to tell families, who have spent 23 years campaigning to finally start to get some justice, that they now need to "move on", and what is best for them.

 

Thankfully most people recognise those types of comments for what they are, and they're best confined to the bin as they're barely worthy of debate. If that's his opinion, so be it, its clearly an firmly entrenched one so its probably best left be.

i agree i expect its the 1980s horrible tory mentality in him,he must hate the one nation tories like cameron.

[solentstars]

[OldNick]

accept it and move on, yeah, lets forget it ever happened. You and Alpine saint can live in your cosy little world whereby anything that does not directly affect you matters not, a much ado about nothing. But then some cretin writes some post 9/11 stuff about how awful that was. Maybe those victims' families should accept it and move on.

As for the Sun, apology, dont make me laugh, 23 years later, maybe Ian Brady should just apologise and then Mrs Bennet can accept it and move on, buy hey, no, she cant because she went to the grave not knowing.

The accept and move on, was regarding the apology from the Sun, not the tragedy. My wording obviously made that unclear.

I have every sympathy for the innocent victims and it makes me sad to see children as young as 5 died. They were not drunk and urinating on policemen but excited going to a football match.

The same could be said for the victims of Hysel who i never seem to hear about from the Liverpool people.

 

The cover up is extraordinary but Iam not totally surprised and would expect many more events have been covered up under all political parties over the years. The Iraq war and Dr David kellys death has always seemed strange and unusual.

 

Let the top brass of the Police who covered this up, as well as the top men of the Police federation get prosecuted. Who by now would be living their dotage on big pensions.

Edited 14 September, 2012 by OldNick

[OldNick]

well she has no integrity as if she really believed it was wrong, she should have blown the whistle

[Frank's cousin]

Alps - I dont think anyone has said the Hillsborough victims should have a 'monopoly' on grief. Yes we have 1000+ road deaths a year, countles other industrial accidents as a result of negligence and these cases only get national coverage when there is some sort of campaign to overcome an injustice - that is what this has all been about. I, like many was for some time convinced there was more blame attached to the fans (not the victims but others) then the contributory level assigned by the Taylor report, due to the tragedy was depicted in the media - I think its a good thing that this recent disclosure has made many like me look again at the details and come to different conclusions and I gues sthat is what the victims families are after - an acceptance that this tragedy was CAUSED directly by failings of those with authority and a duty of care to ensure safety, and secondly to expose the currupt lies of police and media in atributing blame. I cant see anything in that twhich is not justified or right.

 

I have been criticised on here earlier for sticking to one point about the whole hooli thing in the 70s and 80s leading to the errection of the pens/cages in the firstplace, and I stand by the point that had that not been the case, then deaths would not have occured, but this has nothing to do with any blame on those attending on that day, nor does in exonerate those culpuble of criminal neglience - which did not come across in my previous posts so I can see why I was criticised.

 

At Heysal.. Hoolis whether of liverpool origin or other infiltrators stampeed and cause dinjury and death. At Hillsborough, monstorous failings in simple crowd management and safety protocols and subsequent failures to act and respond appropriately, was directly responsible for the death of innocent fans - and even if there was pushing and shoving to get in, its NOT the same thing - something which I now clearly see and accept, however easy it might be play the repsonsiblity card.

 

I just dont understand why you are struggling to accept this and admit you are wrong. I have done and feel better for it.

[solentstars]

well she has no integrity as if she really believed it was wrong, she should have blown the whistle

 

This was the.80s I expect they would have sacked her using some made up allegations and I expect she was told that.

 

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk 2

[solentstars]

Alps - I dont think anyone has said the Hillsborough victims should have a 'monopoly' on grief. Yes we have 1000+ road deaths a year, countles other industrial accidents as a result of negligence and these cases only get national coverage when there is some sort of campaign to overcome an injustice - that is what this has all been about. I, like many was for some time convinced there was more blame attached to the fans (not the victims but others) then the contributory level assigned by the Taylor report, due to the tragedy was depicted in the media - I think its a good thing that this recent disclosure has made many like me look again at the details and come to different conclusions and I gues sthat is what the victims families are after - an acceptance that this tragedy was CAUSED directly by failings of those with authority and a duty of care to ensure safety, and secondly to expose the currupt lies of police and media in atributing blame. I cant see anything in that twhich is not justified or right.

 

I have been criticised on here earlier for sticking to one point about the whole hooli thing in the 70s and 80s leading to the errection of the pens/cages in the firstplace, and I stand by the point that had that not been the case, then deaths would not have occured, but this has nothing to do with any blame on those attending on that day, nor does in exonerate those culpuble of criminal neglience - which did not come across in my previous posts so I can see why I was criticised.

 

At Heysal.. Hoolis whether of liverpool origin or other infiltrators stampeed and cause dinjury and death. At Hillsborough, monstorous failings in simple crowd management and safety protocols and subsequent failures to act and respond appropriately, was directly responsible for the death of innocent fans - and even if there was pushing and shoving to get in, its NOT the same thing - something which I now clearly see and accept, however easy it might be play the repsonsiblity card.

 

I just dont understand why you are struggling to accept this and admit you are wrong. I have done and feel better for it.

 

Agree I expect he's just one of those people who are bl oody minded despite all the evidence just like that chief constable who's carried on lying despite all the daming evidenience.

 

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk 2

[saintbletch]

Also posted on the 9/11 thread..

 

I see no hypocrisy or contradiction whatsoever

 

The families of the Hillsborough victims were perfectly entitled to grieve and be outraged a what happened and the aftermath. But its a quarter of a century on now, and still they wont move on and let it lie, even with the enquiry's findings. They have allowed their lives to stand still from that point.

 

My points about 9/11 are perfectly valid, this tragedy affects a much larger amount of people, but even now, much less time after than with Hillsborough, there are signs that those affected have started moving on, like the massive scale-back this year in the remembrance ceremonies.

 

I also posted about BAE Systems, and the tragedy that is about to occur at a company that employs 40,000 British workers. I got sneering about being more concerned about that than Hillsborough. Well, sorry, 40,000 families are about to have their lives wrecked over a completely unnecessary exercise, just so a small select group can make a quick buck.

 

I would like to know why all of a sudden, the families of Hillsborough victims have a complete monopoly on grief and sympathy, and no-one is permitted to comment or observe anything else. This self-obsession and self-pity is what genuinely f**ks me off about some people from Liverpool. That and the fact that every policeman in the country is now tarred as a dishonest c**t.

 

I dont care if my opinion (not trolling) is a minority and I dont care if you all accuse me of some sort of Scouse vendetta and lacking sympathy for the victims families (its not true, I am just fed up with the proportion of it all).

 

Its quite clear to me that some of this is driven by a blantant anti-Tory agenda anyway, for example the comments linking the miners strike to Hillsborough.

 

This is my last post ont he subject; you can all continue to get outraged without my participation.

 

 

Can I firstly say that it's a shame you've chosen to leave the debate.

 

But to contradict myself a little, can I also say that I wished you'd do more of this sort of thing. i.e. recognise that your views are the polar opposite of many (but not all), realise that you've done your best to explain your rationale, recognise that you're not going to convince people of your point of view (and vice versa) and retire from the debate.

 

I can respect that and it would save a lot of friction and animosity.

 

For the record, I joined this debate thinking that it was all the Police's fault and have gone away from it recognising the semantic, if not particularly germane point, that the crowd itself had a role in the disaster.

[pap]

Also posted on the 9/11 thread..

 

/b*llocks snipped

 

This is my last post ont he subject; you can all continue to get outraged without my participation.

 

Nice try, Alps - but you're all over the place and you know it, which is why you've signed off the way you have.

 

You're totally wrong on Hillsborough, to the extent where it is not even worth picking you up on all of the crap you've written. That's fine. Anyone with a brain can read between the lines here.

 

Your points on 9/11 are naive in the extreme, and I'm sorry, do represent a complete contradiction. You want to venerate those who died on 9/11 yet denigrate those who have been fighting for justice in Hillsborough. No matter what you say, a massive injustice was done to the families and by extension, the city of Liverpool. I've seen your paper-thin "it's about the numbers" argument. If that's the case, why start a thread about 9/11 when a thread on the Iraq War dead yields so many more numbers?

 

Where do you even get the idea that the Hillsborough families have a "complete monopoly" on grief? You've spent the week in Austria. I've been sat here in Wavertree and have seen the reactions of Liverpudlians first hand. They are not grieving. That happened 23 years ago. Virtually the whole city, red and blue, covered Anfield in tribute. I know that 96 people doesn't seem like much in a city of half a million, but most people knew someone affected by the tragedy.

 

And don't give me this "I don't have a scouse vendetta" b*llocks. I've had numerous exchanges with you and hypo on the subject, dune too. The main difference is that those two were just winding me up, where I believe that you genuinely don't like them. As for why, no f**king idea. Sort it out. You're a f**king embarrassment.

[mattyg]

The police, the stadium owners / designers, the FA, etc take the vast majority of the "blame". I have not seen anything to suggest the people who died could be implicated in anyway.

 

But, anybody who went to games regularly in the mid 80's will be able to tell you the Liverpool supports were far from angels. Breaking into grounds without tickets was the "norm" for more than a few individuals.

 

So what is galling about this whole sorry affair is the repeated affirmation from various people that nobody from Liverpool had any responsibility, this is utter tosh.

 

The following article written by a Liverpool supporter and published in The Times, gives a feeling for what it was like.

 

http://www.est1892.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=1975467&postcount=5

 

Our day of shame

 

By Tony Evans

 

A Liverpool fan recalls how events spiralled out of control

 

“Thirty-nine Italians can’t be wrong.”

 

NEVER forgive, never forget. Never understand. On Merseyside, the feelings about the Heysel disaster are as deep as they are confused. The chant above was sung at the derby match last month by Everton fans, many of whom feel that in some way they are the real victims of that dreadful day because their title-winning team could not play in the European Cup the next season. It taunted Liverpool supporters, some of whom still feel that they had nothing to do with the deaths of 39 people on that May night nearly 20 years ago.

 

“A wall collapsed, that was all.”

 

I have said it and heard it countless times. Except it is a lie.

 

There was a moment that day that, more than anything that would happen over the ensuing 24 hours, has haunted me. Our train had just arrived at Jette station and a long column of Liverpool supporters set off downhill towards the centre of Brussels. I lingered and watched them, chequered flags flying, and thought it looked like a medieval army on the move. Above the narrow street, the locals hung out of open windows and watched, half-grinning but nervous. As I set off for the Grand Place, I thought: “We can do what we like today. No one can stop us.”

 

IT WAS warm and sunny, but there was a dark side to the general mood. It did not need the chequered flags, bought in Rome, to remind anyone about the events in the Italian capital a year before. Then, playing AS Roma in the European Cup final in their own stadium, Liverpool had won the cup but it was not a day remembered with affection. Before the match, scooter gangs has stalked the travelling fans. After the game, Rome erupted in rage, and the bloody events around the Olympic Stadium left everyone who was there — and those who had only heard talk of what happened — determined not to suffer again at the hands of Italian ultras.

 

“The Italians won’t do that to us again,” was a refrain repeated in the weeks since the semi-final. It was not a matter of revenge. It was a wariness, a fear that built itself up to an enormous rage that would spill out at the slightest perceived provocation.

 

The anger was palpable, and not just toward Italians. The British media, we felt, had barely reported one of the worst outbreaks of violence in the game’s history. Had it happened to supporters from any other city, there would have been outrage. But Liverpool was out of step with the mood of the country, marginalised and despised. Well, we could fight our own battles.

 

Turning into a narrow street in the centre of town, my brother and I saw about six Juventus fans in their twenties, lounging outside a café, trying to look cool and hard at the same time. When one looked me straight in the eye, I snarled: “Go on gob****e, say something.” They did not take up the offer. But the tone was set. And the drinking had not even started.

 

WE WERE used to confrontation, though not necessarily at football matches. The first half of the 1980s was perhaps the city’s lowest point, philosophically and economically. Scousers were labelled as thieves in the press, the city’s working class moved ever leftwards as Margaret Thatcher was fêted and the culture gap between Liverpool and the rest of England was stretched to breaking point.

 

Many of Liverpool’s travelling fans were politicised, even if only in a loose way. Quite a few of us had battled with police outside at Eddie Shah’s printing plant in Warrington and gravitated towards Militant Tendency. On the ordinary trains the tales were as likely to be about picket lines and Troops Out marches as incidents at football grounds. This was not hooligan culture as popularly imagined.

 

Where other clubs’ supporters gave themselves butch names and built a myth of organisation and generals, Liverpool and Everton fans mocked the hooligan ethos relentlessly. Read copies of The End, the seminal fanzine of the period, and the picture is clear. Service Crews, Headhunters and their ilk were laughable. The Inter City Firm drew guffaws and was seen not as a force to be admired and feared but as something from a Thatcherite Ealing Comedy. None of those people were present in Brussels, no matter what was said at the time. Hooligans from the far right would not have been welcome.

 

Of course, this did not mean there was no trouble at our games, just that it evolved in a different manner. When groups of young, aggressive, predominantly working-class men are put in confrontational situations, then there will be confrontation. There was.

 

THE GRAND PLACE was less tense than might have been expected. Liverpool fans were here in numbers and small groups who had travelled independently met up, felt safe and relaxed into an afternoon of drinking. Clustered around the bars, we sang, bare-chested in the sun. It was almost idyllic. Then the atmosphere started to turn as the drink kicked in.

 

The common belief was that Belgian beer was weaker than the booze at home. In the heat, young men used to drinking a gallon of weak mild were quaffing strong lagers as if they were lemonade. Small incidents started to mushroom and suddenly the mood changed and the bars began to shut down.By now, there were four of us in our little group. We were reluctant to leave the square because other friends may still be heading for the rendezvous. I went to find some beer, taking a red and white cap to give some protection from the sun. Walking down a narrow street, I saw a group of boys laughing almost hysterically. Seeing my quizzical look, they pointed at a shop. It was a jewellers with no protective grating over the window. All you could do was laugh.

 

Farther on, I saw a group of Juventus supporters, and one was wearing a black and white sun hat. It would give me more cover in the heat, so I swapped with him. Only he clearly did not want to part with his hat. He had no choice. Sensing danger, he let me have it and looked in disgust at the flimsy thing I’d given him. This was not cultural exchange: this was bullying, an assertion of dominance. I remember strutting away, slowly, the body language letting them know how I felt.

 

There was a supermarket by the bourse and, at the entrance, there was a Liverpool fan. “You’re Scouse?” he said. There was no need for an answer and he knew what I was there for. “It’s free to us today,” he said, handing me a tray of beer. Things were spinning out of control.

 

On the way back to the square, the group of Liverpool fans by the jewellers had been replaced by riot police. Glass was scattered all over the street. There was hysteria — and pride — in my laughter. This was turning into an excellent day.

 

We set off for the ground and there seemed to be more and more small confrontations. On other days the little cultural misunderstandings would end in hugs. Here, with the hair-trigger tempers, it was tears, and we were determined they would not be ours.

 

AT THE ground there was madness. People were staggering, collapsing, throwing up. A large proportion of Liverpool fans seemed to have lost control. We met a group of mates who had come by coach. A fellow passenger we all knew had leapt off as soon as they arrived and attacked two people, one an Italian, with an iron bar.

 

Even in a drunk and deranged state, the stadium appalled us. The outer wall was breeze block, and some of the ticketless were kicking holes in its base and attempting to crawl through. Most were getting savage beatings from the riot police, finally making their presence felt. It was easier to walk into the ground and ignore the ticket collector, some of whom were seated at tables — I went home with a complete ticket. Four years later, on another dreadful day, I would enter another ground without needing to show my ticket. It is not just the Belgians whose inefficiency had deadly consequences. Section Y grew more and more crowded and, in front of us, a crush barrier buckled and collapsed.

 

The rough treatment by the police drew a response and they disappeared from the back of the section after skirmishes. Seeing a policeman beating a young lad who was attempting to climb over the wall and was caught in the barbed wire, I pushed the Belgian away. He turned to hit me and I punched him — not hard — through his open visor. He ran away.

 

With the police gone, groups of youths swarmed over a snack stand and looted it. I climbed onto the roof, and was passed up cans of soft drinks. It felt like being on top of the world up there.

 

Back on the terraces there was an exchange of missiles — nothing serious by the standards of the day. We looked enviously at the space in section Z, though. There were too many people in our section. I went to the toilet and, by the time I came back, the fence was down and people were climbing over. Unable to locate my group, I joined the swarm. In section Z I wandered around for a while. There seemed to be very little trouble. People backed away but there were no charges, just a minor scuffle or two.

 

 

Continued...

[Thedelldays]

Interesting article.... Goes a long way to the suggestions in the Hillsborough report that hooliganism of the time was part of the very wrong road that led to that day

[solentstars]

The police, the stadium owners / designers, the FA, etc take the vast majority of the "blame". I have not seen anything to suggest the people who died could be implicated in anyway.

 

But, anybody who went to games regularly in the mid 80's will be able to tell you the Liverpool supports were far from angels. Breaking into grounds without tickets was the "norm" for more than a few individuals.

 

So what is galling about this whole sorry affair is the repeated affirmation from various people that nobody from Liverpool had any responsibility, this is utter tosh.

 

The following article written by a Liverpool supporter and published in The Times, gives a feeling for what it was like.

 

http://www.est1892.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=1975467&postcount=5

 

The report clears the fans if you read it or are you still saying 96 people brought it on themselves and what has heysel got to do with a 23 year cover up of hillsborough.

 

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk 2

[mattyg]

As I said, I am not expert on all that has been written on the subject, but "I have not seen anything to suggest the people who died could be implicated in anyway."

 

But the point I was trying to make (poorly) was that some of the other Liverpool supporters on the day should have the decency to hold there hands up saying there actions contributed to the disaster. Instead, we continue to hear that the scousers played no part at all, everybody is to blame.

 

And you ask what has Heysel got to do with it? It puts in to context some of the actions of supporters at the time, which was deemed to be the norm. At heysel the crash barriers buckled because of the over crowding in the Liverpool end, under slightly different circumstances the deaths at Heysel could have been Liverpool supporters.

[mattyg]

Should have been "Instead, we continue to hear that the scousers played no part at all, everybody else is to blame."

[Frank's cousin]

The police, the stadium owners / designers, the FA, etc take the vast majority of the "blame". I have not seen anything to suggest the people who died could be implicated in anyway.

 

But, anybody who went to games regularly in the mid 80's will be able to tell you the Liverpool supports were far from angels. Breaking into grounds without tickets was the "norm" for more than a few individuals.

 

So what is galling about this whole sorry affair is the repeated affirmation from various people that nobody from Liverpool had any responsibility, this is utter tosh.

 

The following article written by a Liverpool supporter and published in The Times, gives a feeling for what it was like.

 

http://www.est1892.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=1975467&postcount=5

 

The key issue though is that given the environment and atmosphere at the time, given the 'history' or expectation and concern, why did teh police and stweards not prepare themselves to cope? Afterall teh previous year, sections of the road had been bocked off to check tickets etc so that a more orderly queue was possible and it slowed down the arrrival of large numbers of fans into that confined space outside the turnstiles. I have laboured the point about the prevailing times having contibuted to the fact that the diaster COULD happen, but ultimately its become clear to me that it was teh failings of those who SHOULD and COULD have prevented it on the day that must shoulder teh blame.

 

I am the last person who will ever condone football related violence and the 70s and 80s terrace culture is something I am glad has gone - others disagree, but I stand by that, and I wont we cant forget that the legacy of 70s and 80s violence DID mean that if mistakes were made elsewhere then this could happen - but we are talking about 'ON THAT DAY, it was the mistakes made that led to the deaths.

[The Kraken]

As I said, I am not expert on all that has been written on the subject, but "I have not seen anything to suggest the people who died could be implicated in anyway."

 

But the point I was trying to make (poorly) was that some of the other Liverpool supporters on the day should have the decency to hold there hands up saying there actions contributed to the disaster. Instead, we continue to hear that the scousers played no part at all, everybody is to blame.

And you ask what has Heysel got to do with it? It puts in to context some of the actions of supporters at the time, which was deemed to be the norm. At heysel the crash barriers buckled because of the over crowding in the Liverpool end, under slightly different circumstances the deaths at Heysel could have been Liverpool supporters.

 

Do we? Or are you just hearing what you want to hear.

 

The original Taylor Report stated that drunkenness and unruliness of a minority of fans aggravated the problem, but the blame for the disaster rested at the feet of S. Yorkshire police. Also that the drunkenness and unruliness was not significantly more than would be expected at any other similar event.

 

Heysel and Hillsborough were two entirely different events, and simply cannot be used for comparison by any right-minded individual.

[laughing now]

That's a pretty random rant ! I agree with OldNick that there were probably police who saved lives and similar heroic acts - but the problem is that for at least 35 minutes after the gate was opened, the majority were treating the fans in the Leppings Lane end as potential criminals. Placing a cordon across the halfway line to stop "fighting" which wasn't happening anywhere, and preventing the ambulances getting onto the pitch for the same reason were far more destructive techniques than any few heroic acts could compensate for.

 

Speaking of compensation, money for someone's life is always distasteful, but I think the compensation payments that have long since been paid out to the traumatised police officers are especially distasteful when compared to the insulting offers to the bereaved families. Both police and victims deserve the appropriate remedial action.

 

The evidence of a senior ambulance officer at the time makes no mention of a police corden impeding ambulances, but does raise issues of access into the ground itself as a problem. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19571415 read under heading Senior ambulance officer criticised access for ambulances the PDF attached called Letter with criticisms deleted. The vehicular access at the Dell was dire too, and I now undertsand why SMS has two large access tunnels.

[James]

Nope, not really. Fairly ambivalent about it, tbh.

 

The families feel some sense of vindication after continuing to dredge this up for a quarter of a century. I hope it brings them some pain relief.

 

Only the revenge part to go, I suppose....

 

God, what an absolutely heartless way of putting it. One of the most moronic posts I've EVER had the misfortune of reading on this site. Words fail me.

 

"dredge up" - people's children and loved ones died and for 23 years have been in some way blamed for their own deaths....so you'd just let that go if it was one of your family members would you? Unbelievable.

 

As for the so called 'revenge part' - so are you trying to say that if a crime is committed and the perpetrator isn't caught at the time or in its immediate aftermath then it should go unpunished just because it happened a long time ago? Again, what an utterly ridiculous point of view.

[MatthewStiles]

Alpine Saint is a clueless moron "self-obsession and self-pity is what genuinely f**ks me off about some people from Liverpool" Ah yes, the old victim thing, even now. If the Liverpool fans had listened to prats like Alps then the cover up by the police would never have come out. This is one of the greatest scandals ever, the police lied and lied, the coroner bent justice so as to smear the Liverpool fans and allow the authorities to evade the responsibility themselves. Also, the Hillsborough stadium was unsafe and known to be. From the panel report:

“Recommendations to feed fans directly from designated turnstiles into each pen, thus monitoring precisely the distribution of fans between the pens, were not acted on because of anticipated costs to SWFC …The fire service …raised concerns about provision for emergency evacuation of the terraces. ..

While modifications were made inside the stadium, the issue of congested access to the turnstiles outside the stadium remained unresolved”

 

Stewarding inside the stadium was also poor. The police were worried about the mass of fans waiting to get through the turnstiles but they should have delayed the kick-off. Even then, inside normal practice would have been for the stewards and police to direct people to the side pens once the central pens had reached capacity. For some reason, they did not do this. Look at the footage, people getting crushed to death in the central pens, people at the sides moving freely. Also, see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7992845.stm

 

As for Heysel, yes hooliganism was responsible but what Liverpool fans did was little different to what fans of other teams would do in the 70's/80's if segregation was not in place. Indeed, a visit to The Dell by Liverpool rarely saw much trouble unlike those of Man U, West Ham or Chelsea. The Heysel stadium was also in a shocking condition, Liverpool FC made an official approach to UEFA to get the venue changed over safety fears but UEFA refused to change it.

[MatthewStiles]

Worth reading this letter from a Liverpool fan (in 1998 1 year before the disaster) regarding the 1998 FA cup semi-final at Hillsborough:

"I attended the above football match on Saturday April 9th 1988, and write to protest in the strongest terms at the disgraceful overcrowding that was allowed to occur (in an all ticket match) in the Leppings Lane Terrace area.

The whole area was packed solid to the point where it was impossible to move and where I, and others around me, felt considerable concern for personal safety (as a result of the crush an umbrella I was holding in my hand was snapped In half against the crush barrier in front of me). I would emphasise that the concern over safety related to the sheer numbers admitted, and not to crowd behaviour which was good.

My concern over safety was such (at times it was impossible to breathe), that at half time when there was movement for toilets , refreshments etc. I managed to extricate myself from the terrace , having taken the view that my personal safety was more important than watching the second half."

[Wade Garrett]

I doubt that very much. Still plenty of self-pity and emotional blackmail to come............

 

C*nt.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

C*nt.

 

they are useful don't forget Wade

I have always defended Alpine's right to have a view to go against the majority but his posts on this subject are offensive. I shall regard him in a different light from now on.

[aintforever]

Worth reading this letter from a Liverpool fan (in 1998 1 year before the disaster) regarding the 1998 FA cup semi-final at Hillsborough:

"I attended the above football match on Saturday April 9th 1988, and write to protest in the strongest terms at the disgraceful overcrowding that was allowed to occur (in an all ticket match) in the Leppings Lane Terrace area.

The whole area was packed solid to the point where it was impossible to move and where I, and others around me, felt considerable concern for personal safety (as a result of the crush an umbrella I was holding in my hand was snapped In half against the crush barrier in front of me). I would emphasise that the concern over safety related to the sheer numbers admitted, and not to crowd behaviour which was good.

My concern over safety was such (at times it was impossible to breathe), that at half time when there was movement for toilets , refreshments etc. I managed to extricate myself from the terrace , having taken the view that my personal safety was more important than watching the second half."

 

Similar thing happened to Spurs fans in the Semi in 1981. It is shocking that lessons were not learned, I suppose history has shown it often takes a major tragedy for changes to happen.

 

However I think it is pointless having another inquest into what caused the tragedy, health and safety was too relaxed and the Police screwed up - no one wanted it to happen.

 

However NYONE involved in covering up what actually happened should spend time behind bars, and I include that old c*nt Thatcher in that. Also ANY Police officer who changed their story to cover the force's ass should also be punished - regardless of how much pressure was put on them from above.

[aintforever]

Also that the drunkenness and unruliness was not significantly more than would be expected at any other similar event.

 

That is 100% correct, and why the blame lies with the health and safety and police.

 

But just because drunkenness and unruliness was the accepted norm among football supporters in the 80's doesn't mean it didn't contribute to the tragedy. The fences were there because of it, the polices attitude were shaped by it (when the central pens were obviously being overcrowed I expect the officers were still more concerned about potential violence than a possible crush).

 

Police was concerned about loss of life in the crush outside the ground. Any Liverpool supporters pushing or acting unruly outside played a direct role in the loss of life IMO.

[The Kraken]

That is 100% correct, and why the blame lies with the health and safety and police.

 

But just because drunkenness and unruliness was the accepted norm among football supporters in the 80's doesn't mean it didn't contribute to the tragedy. The fences were there because of it, the polices attitude were shaped by it (when the central pens were obviously being overcrowed I expect the officers were still more concerned about potential violence than a possible crush).

 

Police was concerned about loss of life in the crush outside the ground. Any Liverpool supporters pushing or acting unruly outside played a direct role in the loss of life IMO.

 

We seem to be going from one extreme to the other with the latest revelations. Back in 1989 it was initallly all the fans' fault, thousands of drunks and ticketless yobs caused the disaster. The Taylor Report thankfully went some way to redressing that balance, and highlighted the true cause of the tragedy whilst also apportioning a small amount of responsibility upon a minority of drunk and unruly fans.

 

It now seems that there is currently underway a bit of a whitewash of this fact, and a desire to claim that all fans were not culpable in any way at all. This isn't right IMO. Most of the fans weren't to blame in any way, that's perfectly clear. And the actions of the few weren't a hugely contributory factor in the ensuing events of the day; but they did have an impact, that's for sure, and I don't think that should be forgotten or glossed over.

 

I'm all for the families finding the justice they are looking for; of course I am and I think most right minded people would hope for that too. The police were ultimately to blame for what happened that day, and the fault lies at their feet. But it remains a fact that there were a minority of Liverpool fans that day who let themselves down, and as you rightly say, I think they (and the public) should admit they played a direct role in making a terrible situation even worse that it already was.

[Frank's cousin]

We seem to be going from one extreme to the other with the latest revelations. Back in 1989 it was initallly all the fans' fault, thousands of drunks and ticketless yobs caused the disaster. The Taylor Report thankfully went some way to redressing that balance, and highlighted the true cause of the tragedy whilst also apportioning a small amount of responsibility upon a minority of drunk and unruly fans.

 

It now seems that there is currently underway a bit of a whitewash of this fact, and a desire to claim that all fans were not culpable in any way at all. This isn't right IMO. Most of the fans weren't to blame in any way, that's perfectly clear. And the actions of the few weren't a hugely contributory factor in the ensuing events of the day; but they did have an impact, that's for sure, and I don't think that should be forgotten or glossed over.

 

I'm all for the families finding the justice they are looking for; of course I am and I think most right minded people would hope for that too. The police were ultimately to blame for what happened that day, and the fault lies at their feet. But it remains a fact that there were a minority of Liverpool fans that day who let themselves down, and as you rightly say, I think they (and the public) should admit they played a direct role in making a terrible situation even worse that it already was.

 

Maybe the problem is the context and two sepearte issues?

 

On the one hand it has been proven beyond any doubt that given the way fans were treated, the lack of decent facilities, Saftey considerations and attitudes of the police at the time, eg the context of being a fan in the late 80s, the police, safety problems, mistakes etc were the cause of the tragedy - something also validated by the fact that despite the sames issues, games were possible without tragedy IF the police implemented an appropriate and robust safety plan - and acted appropriately once a problem had ben recognised - Clear as day that ON that day the Police did 3 things wrong: planning and implementation of a proper and appropriate safety strategy, Falure to respondquickly and appropriately as soon a s a problem was identified (which would have saved lives which is one of the most shocking as aspects) and thirdly tio then blame the innocent fans and smear them.

 

But the the confusion is possible maybe, because we have to acknowledge that although not behaviour on the day, behaviour of fans during the previous decade, the 'robust' police and security measures that were implemented because of this meant a situation had been craeted where it was possible that such a diaster could happen, whether it be the pens, the cages, the lack of care and investment in facilities to cope adequately etc, or even the attitude towards fans in general by those in authority, would have had a contribution of some level? The saddest aspect is that it needed this environment for the indequancies and major errors on the day by the police for their their criminal negligence to have such tragic consequences?

[Noodles34]

they are useful don't forget Wade

I have always defended Alpine's right to have a view to go against the majority but his posts on this subject are offensive. I shall regard him in a different light from now on.

 

yes, watched the last 96 seconds of MOTD2 last night and thought of him, it made me very angry and I cannot now just think of him as some jovial WUM, just a moron.

[pap]

Kelvin MacKenzie doorstepped on Hillsborough by Channel 4 news:-

 

[The Kraken]

I find that "reporting" every bit as distasteful as the Sun's standard tactics. Kelvin McKenzie is an odious f*cknugget, but lowering oneself to his level is simply not the answer.

 

I'd have grabbed hold of that reporter and driven off at speed, had he tried to stop me closing my own car door in such an openly aggressive manner.

[pap]

I find that "reporting" every bit as distasteful as the Sun's standard tactics. Kelvin McKenzie is an odious f*cknugget, but lowering oneself to his level is simply not the answer.

 

I'd have grabbed hold of that reporter and driven off at speed, had he tried to stop me closing my own car door in such an openly aggressive manner.

 

I'd be inclined to agree. Mostly about getting footage of the bother over obtaining any genuine facts. Looks like MacKenzie is getting his house in order for a big interview next week.

[The9]

The evidence of a senior ambulance officer at the time makes no mention of a police corden impeding ambulances, but does raise issues of access into the ground itself as a problem. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19571415 read under heading Senior ambulance officer criticised access for ambulances the PDF attached called Letter with criticisms deleted. The vehicular access at the Dell was dire too, and I now undertsand why SMS has two large access tunnels.

 

You've mixed up my two separate points - the police cordon didn't impede ambulances, the police cordon was across the middle of the pitch, a bunch of officers who could have been saving lives were trying to prevent a fight that wasn't happening or likely to happen in the circumstances.

 

It was reported that the ambulances were held outside by police refusing to give them access to the pitch "because there was fighting".

 

Actually, I'm surprised to see this is the link you've mentioned :

 

14. The s p e c t a t o r s , some o f whom were d i s t r a u g h t were

p h y s i c a l l y manhandling me and around me there was f i g h t i ng

between the supporters w h i l s t v e h i c l e s were moving i n and out of

the ground. I c o u l d see a l o t of people moving to the north

stand c a r r y i n g i n j u r e d and dead people.

 

Incidentally, the "Heysel" thing above looks like some particularly tasteless hoolie lit and comes across as a work of fantasy to me.

Edited 19 September, 2012 by The9

[The9]

This is also from the ambulance report and supports some of the discussion above :

 

The p o l i c e were working extremely

hard and i f I had a problem a policeman i n the area Intervened

and allowed me t o get on w i t h the job i n hand and the p o l i ce

comforted and d e a l t s y m p a t h e t i c a l l y w i t h the many d i s t r e s s ed

people i n my immediate area.

 

I was always conscious that eunbulances were being stripped

I t r i e d to e s t a b l i s h a r o u t i n e and assess the s e v e r i t y of

10

of t h e i r equipment as soon as the crews had l e f t to attend to the

i n j ured.

Edited 19 September, 2012 by The9

[GAS]

Also posted on the 9/11 thread..

 

I see no hypocrisy or contradiction whatsoever

 

The families of the Hillsborough victims were perfectly entitled to grieve and be outraged a what happened and the aftermath. But its a quarter of a century on now, and still they wont move on and let it lie, even with the enquiry's findings. They have allowed their lives to stand still from that point.

 

My points about 9/11 are perfectly valid, this tragedy affects a much larger amount of people, but even now, much less time after than with Hillsborough, there are signs that those affected have started moving on, like the massive scale-back this year in the remembrance ceremonies.

 

I also posted about BAE Systems, and the tragedy that is about to occur at a company that employs 40,000 British workers. I got sneering about being more concerned about that than Hillsborough. Well, sorry, 40,000 families are about to have their lives wrecked over a completely unnecessary exercise, just so a small select group can make a quick buck.

 

I would like to know why all of a sudden, the families of Hillsborough victims have a complete monopoly on grief and sympathy, and no-one is permitted to comment or observe anything else. This self-obsession and self-pity is what genuinely f**ks me off about some people from Liverpool. That and the fact that every policeman in the country is now tarred as a dishonest c**t.

 

I dont care if my opinion (not trolling) is a minority and I dont care if you all accuse me of some sort of Scouse vendetta and lacking sympathy for the victims families (its not true, I am just fed up with the proportion of it all).

 

Its quite clear to me that some of this is driven by a blantant anti-Tory agenda anyway, for example the comments linking the miners strike to Hillsborough.

 

This is my last post ont he subject; you can all continue to get outraged without my participation.

Wieder in der Küche Hausfrau.

[Whitey Grandad]

Wieder in der Küche Hausfrau.

 

Im Krankenhaus, eigentlich.

[trousers]

[video=youtube_share;az-gajhqZqs]