Hillsborough

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

As for the live TV pictures, I said before I watched it live in my student house in Manchester with 2 Liverpool supporters, and from what I recall it was impossible to draw any conclusions about cause from what we were seeing.

 

but I don't recall any TV pictures showing fans ****ing on corpses, beating up pramedics and groping dead women. There was plenty of footage of fans helping fans and shedloads of police just standing there doing nothing.

[badgerx16]

Wow, more of that disgusting generalisation.....

 

No, it's a fact !

[alpine_saint]

No, it's a fact !

 

Is it ?

 

I missed the S. Yorks Police shooting people and throwing them in already-dug trenches, or going up to Darth Vader and saying "The Death Star plans are NOT in the main computer"

[pap]

And the first point ? Your "moron" comments suggest to me I am spot-on about your rhetoric about that paper.

 

Sorry Alps. Didn't realise that you were actually expecting an answer to your first point. I don't believe that the Sun's apology is anything more than lip service.

 

I've been more than clear on my feelings for the Sun for some time. I'm not actually sure what worries me the most about it - the moronic content that can read by a five year old, or the moronic audience who seem to lap it up in droves.

[alpine_saint]

Sorry Alps. Didn't realise that you were actually expecting an answer to your first point. I don't believe that the Sun's apology is anything more than lip service.

 

 

Because of course they couldnt give a sh*t about righting a wrong. So strange to have expected them to care in the first place.

 

Self-pity - check

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Because of course they couldnt give a sh*t about righting a wrong. So strange to have expected them to care in the first place.

 

Self-pity - check

 

Self-pity? what's that got to do with it. I never buy the Sun because I think it is a **** paper. The apology IS little more than lip service. Why should we think it is anything more from a paper that has consistently showed base value over the years?

[pap]

Because of course they couldnt give a sh*t about righting a wrong. So strange to have expected them to care in the first place.

 

Self-pity - check

 

Sssh, Alps.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Looks like Pap isn't alone in mistrusting the Sun. In an unrelated survey it was ranked least trusted of British newspapers.

 

http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=50014&c=1

[Frank's cousin]

Sorry Alps. Didn't realise that you were actually expecting an answer to your first point. I don't believe that the Sun's apology is anything more than lip service.

 

I've been more than clear on my feelings for the Sun for some time. I'm not actually sure what worries me the most about it - the moronic content that can read by a five year old, or the moronic audience who seem to lap it up in droves.

 

Which is sadly why politicians try and get them on side - whilst not into conspiracy theories - I suspect that there was plenty of discussion between government press office and the Sun editors... and its one of those ironic elements of our 'free' press. For years during the communist era in the Soviet Union, Pravda was criticised in the West for being in teh states pocket, but at least it was honest about it and obvious to all - here we have a media that is heavily editorially sitting on one side of the other, or the likes of the Sun's owners that seek political infuence in exchange for political support - happy to whore itself in recent years to those offering the best deal - under the guise of reflecting public opinion.. but thats another debate.

 

Alps, I am not sure why Duncan's opinion is any less valid because he is a 'trades unionist' - We ae talking about a period in the 80s when Thatcher's policy of shaking up Britain form the lethergy of the 70s was done without compassion or understaning of the social impact such sweeping change would have on communities - better political brains than mine can argue the pros and cons of the economic necessity of the overall policy, but anyone with half a brain can see that the methods employed to bring about that change was at best done with naiviety of its social impact, at worst spiteful, arrogant and completely without compassion.

 

IMHO its a possible explanation why the Government at the time if not directly complicit, were probably more than happy for the Sun/police to blame football fans - deflect the blame from the authorities and onto the 'fans' which would sit more comfortably with the general public - afterall 'we were all Hooligans' - and yes some of that mud was sadly justified and is why I look on the those who look back on those times/behaviour with some misty eyed nostalgia with distain.

 

The legacy provided by Hillsborough, was a shift in attitude of the fans, public and authorities - some argue it 'cleansed' football, but I would say it merely took it back form the hoolis to the pre 70s era, where it was more generational, families etc feeling safer in more appropriate environments - rather than caged and squeezed into what were in many cases victorian crumbling and dangerous stands - that evolution is the ONLY good thing to come out of this.

[badgerx16]

Is it ?

 

 

Depends on your perspective, but bussing the Met Police SPG into mining villages because the Government felt the local force might be 'too soft' on the strikers does seem to indicate a certain agenda - and before you ask I actually saw them parked up in lay byes in their minibuses.

[trousers]

Of course Thatcher knew - Bernard Ingram was briefing journalists within hours that the Liverpool fans were to blame. Thatcher turned a blind eye to the S Yorkshire cover up as pay back for the support they gave her during the miners' strike.

 

I don't recall reading that account of events in yesterday's reports on the enquiry findings. I was under the impression that they had left no stone unturned.

[JackFrost]

I love the little links conspiracy theorists make...

 

As someone who served in the Met during the 80s/most of the 90s you really couldn't be any wider of the mark

[solentstars]

Which is sadly why politicians try and get them on side - whilst not into conspiracy theories - I suspect that there was plenty of discussion between government press office and the Sun editors... and its one of those ironic elements of our 'free' press. For years during the communist era in the Soviet Union, Pravda was criticised in the West for being in teh states pocket, but at least it was honest about it and obvious to all - here we have a media that is heavily editorially sitting on one side of the other, or the likes of the Sun's owners that seek political infuence in exchange for political support - happy to whore itself in recent years to those offering the best deal - under the guise of reflecting public opinion.. but thats another debate.

 

Alps, I am not sure why Duncan's opinion is any less valid because he is a 'trades unionist' - We ae talking about a period in the 80s when Thatcher's policy of shaking up Britain form the lethergy of the 70s was done without compassion or understaning of the social impact such sweeping change would have on communities - better political brains than mine can argue the pros and cons of the economic necessity of the overall policy, but anyone with half a brain can see that the methods employed to bring about that change was at best done with naiviety of its social impact, at worst spiteful, arrogant and completely without compassion.

 

IMHO its a possible explanation why the Government at the time if not directly complicit, were probably more than happy for the Sun/police to blame football fans - deflect the blame from the authorities and onto the 'fans' which would sit more comfortably with the general public - afterall 'we were all Hooligans' - and yes some of that mud was sadly justified and is why I look on the those who look back on those times/behaviour with some misty eyed nostalgia with distain.

 

The legacy provided by Hillsborough, was a shift in attitude of the fans, public and authorities - some argue it 'cleansed' football, but I would say it merely took it back form the hoolis to the pre 70s era, where it was more generational, families etc feeling safer in more appropriate environments - rather than caged and squeezed into what were in many cases victorian crumbling and dangerous stands - that evolution is the ONLY good thing to come out of this.

 

Good post and I remember the era very well for the authoriton policy being pursued. by that government which used all the tools of the state.thank god the 80s was a shameful period of our history. I don't think it would happen today.

 

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk 2

[pap]

I don't recall reading that account of events in yesterday's reports on the enquiry findings. I was under the impression that they had left no stone unturned.

 

My dear trousers. Have you learned nothing from yesterday?

 

If we're going to go the "no stone unturned" route, where does that start exactly? I know that the families had access to pretty much everything Hillsborough related, but there is such a thing as scope. I'm not sure we'd ever get a result if we tracked down each and every contributing factor at the time.

[solentstars]

I don't recall reading that account of events in yesterday's reports on the enquiry findings. I was under the impression that they had left no stone unturned.

on the radio yesterday that Douglas hurd published a report which found that it was a cover up by the services but was over ruled. By she who must be obayed because it would give a bad impression of the yorkshire police.

 

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk 2

[trousers]

Alps' date=' I am not sure why Duncan's opinion is any less valid because he is a 'trades unionist' - We ae talking about a period in the 80s when Thatcher's policy of shaking up Britain form the lethergy of the 70s was done without compassion or understaning of the social impact such sweeping change would have on communities - better political brains than mine can argue the pros and cons of the economic necessity of the overall policy, but anyone with half a brain can see that the methods employed to bring about that change was at best done with naiviety of its social impact, at worst spiteful, arrogant and completely without compassion.[/quote']

 

http://www.spiked-online.com/site/article/5841/

 

Myth No.2: Thatcher invented ‘Thatcherism’

 

That Thatcherism was a ruthless response to economic crisis rather than a one-woman ideology is clear from the fact that Margaret Thatcher did not invent it. Many of the measures described today as ‘Thatcherism’ were first pursued by Ted Heath’s Conservative government in the early 1970s. With the onset of economic decline, Heath also attempted to bring to an end the postwar politics of consensus in favour of top-down crisis management. Heath, too, elected in 1970, sought to cut state assistance to failing industries, reduce public spending, impose a fixed income policy, and dent – if not smash – the power of trade unions. However, Heath failed. A seven-week strike by the National Union of Mineworkers (NUM) helped to bring down Heath’s government: he called a General Election in February 1974 to bolster confidence in his government, but lost to Labour.

 

One of the key reasons why Heath failed where Thatcher later succeeded is because, during his rule, the working classes in Britain were generally well-organised and unwilling to have wage cuts or fixed income policies imposed upon them from above. It is striking that where the NUM brought down Heath’s ‘Thatcherite’ policies in 1974, the same union was defeated by Thatcher’s ‘Thatcherite’ policies 10 years later in 1984/1985. So what changed between Heath and Thatcher’s eras to make what is now known as ‘Thatcherism’ – the shaking out of industry and the creation of mass unemployment – seemingly more successful? This is where the intervening Labour government of 1974 to 1979 comes in. Labour PMs Harold Wilson and James Callaghan played a key role in building on ‘Heathism’ and preparing the ground for ‘Thatcherism’.

 

As economic decline worsened in the late 1970s, the Labour governments called on the unions to face up to the need for austerity and sacrifice. They argued that there would have to be a reduction in public expenditure in favour of ‘prudent housekeeping’, and oversaw the rise of mass unemployment on the basis that ‘protecting the economy’ was more important than ensuring everyone had a job and a livelihood. Unemployment doubled between 1975 and 1976; by 1977 more than 1.5million people were out of work (9). When the working classes stood up to this Labour-led attack on their living standards, with the strikes that made up the ‘winter of discontent’ in 1979, Labour launched an anti-union offensive, with Callaghan accusing strikers of engaging in ‘free collective vandalism’ and unions of ‘abus[ing] their great strength’ (10). This anti-union sentiment was taken up with vigour by Thatcher when she was elected in 1979.

 

The defining event between the Heath government of 1970 to 1974 and the Thatcher government of 1979 to 1990 was the Labour administration’s demoralisation of the working classes. In educating the workers about the need for austerity in order to prop up the capitalist system, and in introducing mass unemployment and further demonising ‘union power’, Labour paved the way for ‘Thatcherism’. This is the dirty secret of Thatcherite economics: it sprung from a deep-rooted capitalist crisis at least 10 years before Thatcher actually took power, and its fermentation was assisted by Labour.

Edited 13 September, 2012 by trousers

[trousers]

on the radio yesterday that Douglas hurd published a report which found that it was a cover up by the services but was over ruled. By she who must be obayed because it would give a bad impression of the yorkshire police.

 

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk 2

 

ok - cheers - I didn't catch that yesterday. I'm surprised the media aren't over it like a rash today, although I see that Jack Starw has started to rattle the cage somewhat.

[ecuk268]

on the radio yesterday that Douglas hurd published a report which found that it was a cover up by the services but was over ruled. By she who must be obayed because it would give a bad impression of the yorkshire police.

 

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk 2

 

And she was also trying to push through the hugely unpopular fans ID card scheme at the time.

[The Kraken]

ok - cheers - I didn't catch that yesterday. I'm surprised the media aren't over it like a rash today, although I see that Jack Starw has started to rattle the cage somewhat.

 

Yesterday's revelations revolve around what happened on the day, and the immediate aftermath. There is the argument that Downing Street was fed the same lies from S. Yorkshire police as the press were; they were lies that No. 10 would have found very easy to live with of course, and I don't doubt there wasn't some exaggeration from politicians. That said, if it came from senior officers who briefed the government, then I see it as fair enough that the government took the immediate stance they did.

 

What is unforgiveable (and why Cameron and Miliband both apologised yesterday) is the utter failure to seek the actual facts when doubts became clear, and to clearly and objectively re-examine every single facet of the incident. Instead we saw a railroading of public officials and a whitewash of the true facts of the matter, and its an utter disgrace that that took 23 years to reverse. Every single government, from the government at the time to the previous Labour incumbents (who, finally, set the ball in motion for the truth out) should hang their heads in shame, and should consider themselves culpable to some degree for the extent of the cover-up.

[Yeovil Saint]

ok - cheers - I didn't catch that yesterday. I'm surprised the media aren't over it like a rash today, although I see that Jack Starw has started to rattle the cage somewhat.

While Thatcher's rightly been criticised, I wonder if some of the reluctance to investigate in the New Labour years was down to the utter failure of Sheffield City Council (Leader David Blunkett) to ensure that Hillsborough Stadium was actually safe. The Taylor report was very concerned that there had been no attempt to work out what the capacity of the individual pens should be, no way of working out if a pen was too full and that the gaps between the crush barriers was wider than allowed.

[Sheaf Saint]

Saw this in today's Independent...

 

[alpine_saint]

As someone who served in the Met during the 80s/most of the 90s you really couldn't be any wider of the mark

 

What, you know the S. Yorkshire police were protected over Hillsborough because you and them cracked loads of miners heads a few years before, do you ?

[alpine_saint]

Superb coverage on this thread. The Hillsborough cover-up is now Jim Callaghan's fault.

 

Another 24 hours, and we'll have global warming licked...

[Kingsland Codger]

One thing that puzzles me is why it took the disaster at Hillsborough for football grounds to be improved. There had been previous examples of too many people trying to fit into to small a place. Younger readers might find the following example of note

 

I was at Murrayfield in 1975 to see the Scotland v Wales match. In those days, Murrayfield had one large grandstand with the remaining three-quarters of the ground open-air terracing, standing only. 104,000 people crammed in to Murrayfield that day (at the time the largest rugby crowd in the world, and still the largest ever in the UK). The terracing was unticketed with 50 pence entrance paid at the turnstiles. Whilst it didn't feel dangerous at the time, it was clear there was a problem as the police were taking schoolboys out of the main terraces and down to the front to sit by the touchline.

 

From then on, international rugby matches at Murrayfield were all-ticket games with a capacity limited to 80,000. Soon afterwards, the Scottish Rugby Union built another huge stand and by 1995 the entire stadium had been re-developed into an all-seater 67,000 (plus a bit) capacity arena.

 

The point being that the SRU and the police made immediate efforts to ensure over-crowding could not happen again and then embarked on a long-term solution.

 

Why did it take football so long to make similar changes? Those of us over 50 can recall the sight of the crowd at the Kop End at Anfield swaying and rippling everytime a home goal was scored - the danger was there for all to see.

 

Further, if Hillsborough did not have a safety certificate, then why on earth was the stadium still open - and not just open, but given such a major fixture?

[Yeovil Saint]

Alpine - just one question.

 

Considering that the Prime Minister's apologised, the South Yorkshire Police have apologised, The Sun and Kelvin MacKenzie have apologised, the FA and Sheffield Wednesday Football Club have apologised, why do you think all of them are wrong and you're right?

[alpine_saint]

Alpine - just one question.

 

Considering that the Prime Minister's apologised, the South Yorkshire Police have apologised, The Sun and Kelvin MacKenzie have apologised, the FA and Sheffield Wednesday Football Club have apologised, why do you think all of them are wrong and you're right?

 

What am I supposed to be wrong about ?

 

I dont like the self pity

I'd like to know what the next step is for the victims families to keep this going - publci stoning or massive compensation claim, neither of which brings the victims back

I think the Sun has been overly demonised

I am not really arguing with the enquiry findings, but I am a bit uncomfortable with the complete exoneration of the fans because Heysel happened so close to this.

 

Not really understanding your question.

[pap]

Superb coverage on this thread. The Hillsborough cover-up is now Jim Callaghan's fault.

 

Another 24 hours, and we'll have global warming licked...

 

Try sit-ups, Alps. Twin benefit of keeping you out of trouble and improving your self-esteem.

[alpine_saint]

Try sit-ups, Alps. Twin benefit of keeping you out of trouble and improving your self-esteem.

 

More snidey remarks. Sad.

[The Kraken]

What am I supposed to be wrong about ?

 

I dont like the self pity

I'd like to know what the next step is for the victims families to keep this going - publci stoning or massive compensation claim, neither of which brings the victims back

I think the Sun has been overly demonised

I am not really arguing with the enquiry findings, but I am a bit uncomfortable with the complete exoneration of the fans because Heysel happened so close to this.

 

Not really understanding your question.

 

Had it been your kid(s) that had been lost at Hillsbrough, what outcome do you think you'd be hoping/searching for? Genuine question.

 

I don't have kids, and I'm not closely attached to those that lost relatives in any way; but nonetheless I can't see any other reasonable course of action than a trial for the senior police and decision makers at the time (those who were at fault on the day, and those that collaborated for the ensuing cover-up), with all evidence to hand. It'll be a bit of a public witch-hunt, of course, but I don't see anything else as being sufficient for such an orchestrated cover-up of this nature.

[pap]

More snidey remarks. Sad.

 

Guilty as charged (see how easy it is to admit?!)

 

Seriously though, what avenues has your particular brand of generalisation left open save this? Without any context save your posts, I don't really have a lot to go on except to ponder on your reasons for your stance.

 

The best potential hypothesis is that you're really not happy with yourself, hence the need to denigrate others so that they appear to be less than you. Now if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. However, I haven't met anyone in 37 years who was as angry as you that didn't turn out to be just angry with themselves.

 

It can't be negative day-to-day contact with scousers. I know they get about, but you're in Austria, FFS. Is there a little scouse enclave called New Aigburth or something?

 

It's not like you can even pull the North-South card. You're from the Flower Estates, same as me. It's not like either of us filled our childhood summers with f*cking gymkhanas or anything.

 

So tell me, why is it that you dislike Liverpudlians so much that on the day that the city is finally, publicly vindicated over Hillsborough, you still play the self-pity card?

 

My current guess is "not enough sit-ups".

[badgerx16]

You're from the Flower Estates, .......

 

If that's the reason for his apparent outlook on life then why am I such a ray of sunshine ?

[pap]

If that's the reason for his apparent outlook on life then why am I such a ray of sunshine ?

 

Hehe. Merely making the point that heirs and graces aren't exactly universal down south either.

[The9]

I think the problem with the Sun sits squarely with Kelvin McKenzie, who by all accounts went against the advice of his journos and sub-editors and redrew the front page with that fateful exclamation. The guy would have sold his mother if he thought it would increase circulation, and lets be honest, there are parts of the UK population who are quite willing to accept as gospel anything that paints Liverpool in a bad light or appears to confirm a stereotype.

 

There was the obvious pro-Tory angle to the Sun's story too, with the thankfully now-antiquated (bubble aside?) ways of dealing with football fans as potentially violent criminals having pervaded all of Thatcher's policies to address football hooliganism, this was basically the Sun parroting the party line. With The Sun the most populist of Rupert Murdoch's News International group, and the relatively recent at the time (1986, see below) anti-union moves by Murdoch in moving the papers to Wapping, the editorials in his papers were vehemently in line with Thatcher at the time.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/15/newsid_3455000/3455083.stm

[badgerx16]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19582072

 

"Richard Wells, who led South Yorkshire Police from 1990 to 1998, said charges were "absolutely essential" after a damning report into the tragedy."

 

"Mr Wells said police forces across Britain had "a culture of authoritarianism, defensiveness [and] excessive secrecy" at the time of the disaster."

 

"The current chief constable of South Yorkshire David Crompton said if the law was broken, there should be charges......My position is a very simple and straightforward one, which is that if people have broken the law then they should be prosecuted," he said "It doesn't make any difference whether they're a police officer or anybody else."

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

What am I supposed to be wrong about ?

 

I dont like the self pity

I'd like to know what the next step is for the victims families to keep this going - publci stoning or massive compensation claim, neither of which brings the victims back

I think the Sun has been overly demonised

I am not really arguing with the enquiry findings, but I am a bit uncomfortable with the complete exoneration of the fans because Heysel happened so close to this.

 

Not really understanding your question.

 

So one of the main things you take away from yesterday and today is that the Sun were hard done by. Jesus wept. You're an absolute clown.

[Graffito]

More snidey remarks. Sad.

 

Why can't you do the decent things and stop polluting this thread?

[The Kraken]

A little flavour of what we can expect to see in the days and weeks ahead...

 

It is expected that the victims' relatives, largely represented by the Hillsborough Families Support Group, will meet in the coming days to discuss how they take matters further. One of their first steps will be to start the process of overturning the inquest verdicts of accidental death, which is already being considered by the Attorney General, Dominic Grieve.

 

Margaret Aspinall, chairwoman of the Hillsborough Families Support Group, said: "They were a disgrace, they were a mockery and the system should be ashamed of itself. The fight will go on."

 

Support group president, Trevor Hicks, who lost two daughters at Hillsborough, also said they would now press for criminal action against those involved in the disaster, adding: "The truth is out today, justice starts tomorrow."

[The9]

You have to wonder whether the excesses of the left like militant left-wing Liverpool councillor and future MP Derek Hatton, the type of underclass behaviour stereotyped in Bleasdale and Lane's tv programmes and other such "scouse" imagery helped make it easier for the whitewash to occur, whether that was due to the polar opposites represented by the new right giving them the impression (to themselves) of occupying the moral high ground, or just due to the public perception of Merseyside from many of the 1980s media images of Liverpool ?

 

There's a lot of power in government control of the media...

[alpine_saint]

So one of the main things you take away from yesterday and today is that the Sun were hard done by. Jesus wept. You're an absolute clown.

 

That's right, I really said that The Sun were hard done by.

 

[pap]

You have to wonder whether the excesses of the left like militant left-wing Liverpool councillor and future MP Derek Hatton, the type of underclass behaviour stereotyped in Bleasdale and Lane's tv programmes and other such "scouse" imagery helped make it easier for the whitewash to occur, whether that was due to the polar opposites represented by the new right giving them the impression (to themselves) of occupying the moral high ground, or just due to the public perception of Merseyside from many of the 1980s media images of Liverpool ?

 

There's a lot of power in government control of the media...

 

I'm not convinced that Hatton ever had any proper political convictions, judging from my experience of the bloke. If he ever was militant, he shows little of that these days. You'd have a hard time separating him from any middle-aged bloke overly concerned with outward appearance.

 

You're dead on with the rest of your analysis though. People already had their ideas about Liverpool. It is impossible not to, really. Noisy city with a distinctive accent and a long history of protest. And as you say, portrayal in the media not exactly balanced.

 

A point I often make, and that you've proved for me, is that outside of the area, Merseyside is synonymous with Liverpool. Merseyside is a big place and while some of the outlying areas are pretty much Liverpool overflows, there are also large parts of it that just aren't scouse at all. Southport, St. Helens, Widnes - all part of Merseyside - but definitely not Liverpool. Even large parts of the Wirral (plazzy scousers) are not scouse.

 

Liverpool catches the headlines for anything that happens in Merseyside, which is a little unfair in my book. No one has a go at Southampton if something kicks off in Andover, or even Fareham.

[Lord Duckhunter]

If this is going to get political then people need to have a look at the actions of Jack Straw. An investigation looked at it in 1997 and he failed to act. I dont recall any Labour politican hounding Thatcher or Major over this and to his credit Milliband has not made party political points, like some on here.It was the families and the people of Liverpool alone who exposed this, politicans of all persuasions were just not bothered enough (Andy Burnham and a few others apart).

 

The culture of 1989, particulary with the Torys, but the whole establishment of the time, including Labour figures, was the Football fans were hooligans. Football was not the happy clappy sport it is now.

[buctootim]

If this is going to get political then people need to have a look at the actions of Jack Straw. An investigation looked at it in 1997 and he failed to act. I dont recall any Labour politican hounding Thatcher or Major over this and to his credit Milliband has not made party political points, like some on here.It was the families and the people of Liverpool alone who exposed this, politicans of all persuasions were just not bothered enough (Andy Burnham and a few others apart).

 

The culture of 1989, particulary with the Torys, but the whole establishment of the time, including Labour figures, was the Football fans were hooligans. Football was not the happy clappy sport it is now.

 

Jack Straw was on radio 4 this morning. He was very direct - said he deeply regretted the flaws in the judical enquiry he commissioned - and that he didnt spot them at thje trime.

[The Kraken]

I dont recall any Labour politican hounding Thatcher or Major over this and to his credit Milliband has not made party political points, like some on here.It was the families and the people of Liverpool alone who exposed this, politicans of all persuasions were just not bothered enough (Andy Burnham and a few others apart).

 

Conservative and Labour governments have (rightly) admittedly their cuplability in how its taken until now to start to reach justice; there is simply no room for political points scoring, the past actions of both parties has been tawdry in the extreme.

[pap]

Conservative and Labour governments have (rightly) admittedly their cuplability in how its taken until now to start to reach justice; there is simply no room for political points scoring, the past actions of both parties has been tawdry in the extreme.

 

I'll tell you one thing. If the rest of Parliament was conducted with as much focus and probity as the two Hillsborough debates (ok, yesterday was a statement) have, this country would not be in the sh!t it is in today.

[Thedelldays]

I'll tell you one thing. If the rest of Parliament was conducted with as much focus and probity as the two Hillsborough debates (ok, yesterday was a statement) have, this country would not be in the sh!t it is in today.

 

You are so dull.... Why do you have entered to get all party political about everything

[pap]

You are so dull.... Why do you have entered to get all party political about everything

 

TDD - you've completely misunderstood my point, and in fact have the complete opposite idea. Well done. A catastrophic failure better than a middling success any day of the week.

 

My point was that we have seem to have achieved real progress on this as a consequence of all parties being aligned in their support, as opposed to the usual bun fight we see.

[OldNick]

It is disgraceful how the Police have covered this up, but also pretty sad that the whole force is being tarred with the same brush by many. On the day, I suspect there were many who did above their call of duty.

The Sun did apologise, we should accept it and move on.

I do not feel all the Liverpool fans were above blame, the gates were opened and there were many outside without tickets, how many pushed in without thought we will never know. The sad thing is that decent football fans who got in to the ground died needlessly, let us hope that the people responsible do get their day in court.

[JackFrost]

What am I supposed to be wrong about ?

 

I dont like the self pity

 

Have you ever lost a loved one completely out of the blue? Who have then had disgusting lies spread about them in the national media?

 

I'd like to know what the next step is for the victims families to keep this going - publci stoning or massive compensation claim, neither of which brings the victims back

 

Before yesterday it was the cover up being exposed and all those involved in the cover up apologizing. Which has happened. The next step are the relevant people being brought to justice in the fair and proper way. Like with anyone who commits a crime.

 

I think the Sun has been overly demonised

 

I can see where you're coming from here, this all depends on The Sun knowing how much of the info they were given by police was true and what was false. Still you can't deny that if the story they printed back then turned out to be false (and it did) there were always going to be dire consequences and they knew it.

 

I am not really arguing with the enquiry findings, but I am a bit uncomfortable with the complete exoneration of the fans because Heysel happened so close to this.

 

If we take Heysel out of the equation (where they were at fault and some Liverpool fans were jailed) the report has widely found that the Liverpool crowd behaved no differently to any 'normal' relatively well behaved football crowd. A crowd which naturally put their faith into being policed into the stadium safely and quickly, and I'm making the understatement of the year when I say they were badly let down. Large crowds are always disorganised and are potentially dangerous, it's the nature of the beast. It's why they have to be policed in the first place.

[KK the 2nd]

It is disgraceful how the Police have covered this up, but also pretty sad that the whole force is being tarred with the same brush by many. On the day, I suspect there were many who did above their call of duty.

The Sun did apologise, we should accept it and move on.

I do not feel all the Liverpool fans were above blame, the gates were opened and there were many outside without tickets, how many pushed in without thought we will never know. The sad thing is that decent football fans who got in to the ground died needlessly, let us hope that the people responsible do get their day in court.

Agree ... I think this sums it up but I would add that those police that were party to the cover up now need to brought to justice.

[hypochondriac]

Whilst I am pleased they have found the truth, I found the immediate talk about financial compensation pretty distasteful. I can honestly say that if I were in that situation, compensation would be the absolute last thing on my mind. I would hope that is the same for the families affected.