Hillsborough

[The9]

I agree that there were many factors more to blame, I just think the way football fans were during the 80's contributed. There was a crush outside not an orderly queue, why was that?

 

The same reason there was a crush outside Fratton in 2004/5 after the police held the train arrivers back (for their own protection against the brick-chuckers), the game had started and there was a large crowd released towards the away end all at the same time. Lucky for me when the cordon finally opened I was one of the fastest to the turnstiles down Apsley Road into the Specks Lane entrance (Carisbrook Rd side - the corner with the tunnel stand immediately to the left), because behind me there was a crowd of a couple of hundred or so all arriving at the same time, all pushing against the turnstiles OUTSIDE the ground. There was a wall preventing people heading straight into the turnstile, but there was a crowd rushing the gate and at the time I remember being hugely annoyed that the turnstile operator even took the few seconds to check my ticket with the crush of the scrum behind me. There was also a large closed gate which was not opened. Plenty of police around, many preoccupied with keeping the skate "welcoming committee" in Carisbrook Road away from us though.

 

The difference, and the reason there wasn't serious injury that day, was that there was space for the crowd to expand out at the edges - somewhere to push back into, and also the smaller crowd to begin with. Let's not pretend that people wanting to get into a ground after kick off is some kind of unexpectedly disorderly behaviour - it happens everywhere and anyone expecting "an orderly queue" is frankly a little deluded.

Edited 12 September, 2012 by The9

[dinger]

That's not my intention' date=' [b']an am not quite sure why to come to that conclusion[/b]. Today was about truth - and in some respects that these facts have finally been revealed one hopes goes some way to giving the families some peace, although it will never replace the tragic loss of life. But I cant pretend to be emotionally involved - Whilst I have every sympathy for the victims and their families, and can understand the impact and grief they have suffered as well as admire their search for the truth, I cant pretend I know how it feels or felt. That's not being uncaring or self satisfied.

 

It might be a 'small point' - but I dont believe its an insignificant one if the whole purpose of today is about truth - then it remains important to consider every aspect no matter how small an impact you believe it to have had. If you consider what happened afterwards as the Taylor report recommendations were implemented - - with respect to safety and the removal of the pens and caging, it suggests that this factor was significant.

 

The police were to blame, the fans suffered a smear campaign that is understood and at last that truth is out there. But I dont see why the simple fact that fan behaviour in the 70s and 80s directly led to that environment where those police errors would ultimately lead to the tragedy is in any way wrong to include.

 

BUT there is simply NO justification or excuse for why the police then covered this up and smeared the fans - and yes I like many believed a lot of what was filtered through the media - that opinion has changed as more of the facts came out.

 

I've come to that conclusion because in the context of this story, these events, the criminal incompetence and outright lies, you've made the same "they brought it on themselves a bit" point 6 or 7 times, and I'd advise you to take a step back and see how that looks. Of course there were a lot of social and political reasons why grounds were set up the way they were, and why fans were treated with such contempt. Some of those reasons were valid, some of them unjust IMO. But Hillsborough was a disastrous mismanagement of a situation by a body specifically detailed to manage that situation. I'm not trying to tell you to pretend an emotional involvement in a tragedy; I'm suggesting that you are coming across as callous and crass and that, rather than continuing to refine your relatively minor point, you might be better served dropping it. Just saying though; you're perfectly entitled to your opinion.

[Jonnyboy]

Another good article:

 

http://www.fleetstreetfox.com/2012/09/hooligan-n-rough-lawless-person.html?spref=fb

[Frank's cousin]

I've come to that conclusion because in the context of this story, these events, the criminal incompetence and outright lies, you've made the same "they brought it on themselves a bit" point 6 or 7 times, and I'd advise you to take a step back and see how that looks. Of course there were a lot of social and political reasons why grounds were set up the way they were, and why fans were treated with such contempt. Some of those reasons were valid, some of them unjust IMO. But Hillsborough was a disastrous mismanagement of a situation by a body specifically detailed to manage that situation. I'm not trying to tell you to pretend an emotional involvement in a tragedy; I'm suggesting that you are coming across as callous and crass and that, rather than continuing to refine your relatively minor point, you might be better served dropping it. Just saying though; you're perfectly entitled to your opinion.

 

I have never said they 'brought it on themselves' anywhere - and to suggest that you are misinterpreting what I have been trying to get across. Nor have I said that all the measures and controls put in pace were the RIGHT measures and controls with regard controlling football crowds within stadia - merely that those measures were in place rightly or wrongly because of fan behaviour over at least a decade. You consider this a minor point and you are entitled to your opinion. But if the purpose of these discussions is to understand ALL that contributed to this tragedy then I dont understand how these elements being pointed out are callous or crass - this is a saints board discussing the developments today following a release of a report, many years after that sad event, so not sure why that is considered callous our crass... the reason that point is repeated is because I dont believe its a minor one and yet it is so often ignored or considered irrelevent - in part because fans are reluctant to look back at the behaviour of those times and consider it relevent.

[Jonnyboy]

I have never said they 'brought it on themselves' anywhere - and to suggest that you are misinterpreting what I have been trying to get across. Nor have I said that all the measures and controls put in pace were the RIGHT measures and controls with regard controlling football crowds within stadia - merely that those measures were in place rightly or wrongly because of fan behaviour over at least a decade. You consider this a minor point and you are entitled to your opinion. But if the purpose of these discussions is to understand ALL that contributed to this tragedy then I dont understand how these elements being pointed out are callous or crass - this is a saints board discussing the developments today following a release of a report' date=' many years after that sad event, so not sure why that is considered callous our crass... the reason that point is repeated is because I dont believe its a minor one and yet it is so often ignored or considered irrelevent - in part because fans are reluctant to look back at the behaviour of those times and consider it relevent.[/quote']

 

Youre digging yourself deeper.

[View From The Top]

Youre digging yourself deeper.

 

He's full of sh.it & clueless.

[Frank's cousin]

He's full of sh.it & clueless.

 

Nice mature response.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

FC - take the advice.

 

Can echo the description of getting into Fratton Park. Was at the front of the late group and you could feel the weight of people behind. No one individually was acting up but everyone was desperate to get in and watch the game.

[Frank's cousin]

I appreciate that for some this is a very raw emotive subject and that some comments and opinions are 'unpopular', but not sure why there is such a vitriolic response to certain points...

[KK the 2nd]

FC - take the advice.

 

Can echo the description of getting into Fratton Park. Was at the front of the late group and you could feel the weight of people behind. No one individually was acting up but everyone was desperate to get in and watch the game.

Semi-final at Highbury in 84 was similar - the crush getting in was the worst i had experienced and the carnage at Hillsborough could have equally happened here. Hillsborough was a disaster waiting to happen made worse by the police. The subsequent cover up is shocking.

[View From The Top]

I appreciate that for some this is a very raw emotive subject and that some comments and opinions are 'unpopular'' date=' but not sure why there is such a vitriolic response to certain points...[/quote']

 

Because they are plainly wrong & you have decided that your opinions are fact.

 

Idiot.

[Frank's cousin]

Because they are plainly wrong & you have decided that your opinions are fact.

 

Idiot.

 

Can you then enlighten me? How is the fact that had those pens not been there, no fences etc there would have bene no loss of life wrong exactly?

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

FFS give it a rest. I think you've made your point.

[aintforever]

Because they are plainly wrong & you have decided that your opinions are fact.

 

Idiot.

 

You are the only c@ck around here, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

"the presence of an unruly minority who had drunk too much aggravated the problem." That's in the Taylor report.

 

The Police and health and safety have to take the blame, that is obvious. Football crowds during the 80's were rowdy, aggressive and unpredictable in their nature and the people in charge of crowd control have to take that into account.

[View From The Top]

FFS give it a rest. I think you've made your point.

 

 

Types an awful lot yet clearly understands so little.

[badgerx16]

Can you then enlighten me? How is the fact that had those pens not been there' date=' no fences etc there would have bene no loss of life wrong exactly?[/quote']

 

Frank, whilst your point about the reason for the pens being present is correct, it is also, as Hercules Poirot would say, irrelevant. The pens would have been perfectly safe if (1) there had been adequate stewarding, (2) no more than 1600 fans were allowed into each pen, (3) the crush barriers had been upgraded to meet the safety certification, etc, etc, etc. The worst thing from what I can see is that there was a history going back at least 9 years of problems with large numbers being housed in the Leppings Lane end, and nothing was done about it, and it appears that many posters on here have first hand experience from which they can draw their own conclusions.

[badgerx16]

........ the people in charge of crowd control have to take that into account.

 

And this is exactly where the Police failed.

[Frank's cousin]

Types an awful lot yet clearly understands so little.

 

So tell me what is factually wrong with the point? Surely the purpose of this discussion is to enlighten, educate etc. I am interested in what you have to say so dont understand your desire to get all worked up about it.

[aintforever]

And this is exactly where the Police failed.

 

Totally agree.

[Frank's cousin]

Frank, whilst your point about the reason for the pens being present is correct, it is also, as Hercules Poirot would say, irrelevant. The pens would have been perfectly safe if (1) there had been adequate stewarding, (2) no more than 1600 fans were allowed into each pen, (3) the crush barriers had been upgraded to meet the safety certification, etc, etc, etc. The worst thing from what I can see is that there was a history going back at least 9 years of problems with large numbers being housed in the Leppings Lane end, and nothing was done about it, and it appears that many posters on here have first hand experience from which they can draw their own conclusions.

 

Thanks Badger, thats a fair comment and dont disagree about the lack of direction and stewarding, safety upgrades etc - such a tragic set of circumstances that had any one of these issues been sorted beforehand, would have prevented the tragedy. It seems that the combination of factors was an diaster waiting to happen. All I was trying to get across was you take any one of these factors out of the equation and lives would have been saved - direction by stewards an police, a delayed kick off, fans in more appropriate ends, upgraded safety etc are points that have been made and and understood and the perceived need, rightly or wrongly for pens and cages...

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Why did the taylor report say "the presence of an unruly minority who had drunk too much aggravated the problem." if the fans behavour wasn't an influence.

 

Stop swearing you are making a ***t of yourself.

 

I think it is only right that quotes are referenced - have you got a link?

 

In any case we should be careful with the Taylor report, after all they were dealing with corrupt public agencies and fabricated/altered evidence.

[alpine_saint]

Listen you gobsh.ite cu.nt, everyone is entitled to their own opinions but not their own facts you thick pr.ick.

 

How come you've never been banned ? You are one of the most aggressive boorish pieces of trash to frequent this site.

[Saints foreva]

[Jonnyboy]

Stop swearing you are making a ***t of yourself.

 

[alpine_saint]

I find it unbelievable and really sad that despite The Taylor report and "new" facts coming to light since, people on here are still peddling nonsense and lies.

 

The Taylor report said that ticketless fans played no part in this and that there were no more ticketless fans than at any other similar game. The issue was that the pens in the middle were not shut off , therefore you had too many in those pens and not enough in the ones to the side.There was a programme on ITV Monday night where witness' said the year before the central pens were blocked off once they filled up, the next year this didn't happen.

Taylor also concluded that drink played no part in this, so can we stop with this nonsense once and for all and debate the facts. I cant help feeling that people's judgement is clouded by the fact the victims were scousers. It could easily been our supporters at any semi final pre Taylor.There were Southampton supporters who didn't have tickets, there were Southampton supporters who had a drink and there were Southampton supporters who rushed from the pub at the last minute.

 

Football supporters must take some of the blame, it was their behavour over the years which resulted in the pens. But the police must take 99% of the blame.There was no valid safety certificate for the stadium (hardly H&S gone mad). On the ITV programme witness' said that the year before the police staggered the fans arriving at the game, by setting up check points to check tickets and control the movement of fans along the way to the ground. The KO should have been delayed and this relayed to the supporters outside, there would have been no need to open the exit gate, which coupled with not closing off the central pens, was the heart of the whole thing.. It's all well and good saying people shouldn't push, but come on. Semi Final of the cup kicked off, most of us would want to get in ASAP.

 

We have then ended up with a horrific cover up as the establishment closed ranks and ignorant British people bought into it. Statements changed, lies leaked to the press and MP's, inquests not fulfilling their role. The saddest thing for me is not the behaviour of the establishment, I expect that from them. But the behaviour of a large number of football supporters, who still to this day buy into the lies, buy into the cover up. A nudge and a wink, "you know what Scousers are like" sort of attitude, implications that the families and wider community actually like being the victims here, that they enjoy the grief. Whereas they were just football supporters doing what you or I do every week.96 of them, over half of them under 25, went to a football match and never came home. Yet nobody has been held to account.

 

Two words that p*ss on yours and the governments nice, cosy, politically correct and inert conclusions.

 

Heysel Stadium.

 

Oh, of course, just a bad co-incidence. Strange that...

 

I am not blaming the fans of LFC exclusively or absolving the police. But we live in a grey world not a black-and-white world.

[Huffton]

http://thehillsboroughdisasterdocumentary.com/2011/11/16/how-the-hillsborough-disaster-happened/

 

The whole site is worth a look round, but this piece in particular needs to be read

[Frank's cousin]

Well there is something I have never seen - A front page apology form the Sun... Has anyone read the section of the report that deals with how the Sun's editorial direction went for that smear yet?

[Jonnyboy]

Two words that p*ss on yours and the governments nice, cosy, politically correct and inert conclusions.

 

Heysel Stadium.

 

Oh, of course, just a bad co-incidence. Strange that...

 

I am not blaming the fans of LFC exclusively or absolving the police. But we live in a grey world not a black-and-white world.

 

So you still disagree with all the findings of todays report?

[alpine_saint]

So you still disagree with all the findings of todays report?

 

Nope, not really. Fairly ambivalent about it, tbh.

 

The families feel some sense of vindication after continuing to dredge this up for a quarter of a century. I hope it brings them some pain relief.

 

Only the revenge part to go, I suppose....

[Jonnyboy]

Nope, not really. Fairly ambivalent about it, tbh.

 

The families feel some sense of vindication after continuing to dredge this up for a quarter of a century. I hope it brings them some pain relief.

 

Only the revenge part to go, I suppose....

 

Yeah cos if your kids had been crushed, then checked for alcohol and a criminal record, then blamed for their own demise, you'd just let it slide.

[The Kraken]

Two words that p*ss on yours and the governments nice, cosy, politically correct and inert conclusions.

 

Heysel Stadium.

 

Oh, of course, just a bad co-incidence. Strange that...

 

I am not blaming the fans of LFC exclusively or absolving the police. But we live in a grey world not a black-and-white world.

 

Heysel and Hillsborough were years apart. And probably attended by vastly different people. But then you know that, I'm sure. Alas, your constant determination to prove your point about the "Liverpool disease" leads you headlong into another foot-in-mouth saga where you only show your own ignorance rather than actually enter into any proper debate (whereby you might actually listen to and disseminate the opinion of the other side).

 

In short, you'll pardon me if I consider you to be ignorant of the actual facts and, for some unknown reason, determined to portray a contrary yet controversial opinion. Again.

 

As I alluded to earlier in this thread; just how would you feel if you had allowed your children to attend a football match with the same outcome as this? Would you perhaps act the same?

[Colinjb]

Two words that p*ss on yours and the governments nice, cosy, politically correct and inert conclusions.

 

Heysel Stadium.

 

Oh, of course, just a bad co-incidence. Strange that...

 

I am not blaming the fans of LFC exclusively or absolving the police. But we live in a grey world not a black-and-white world.

 

Heysel.

 

An event where there was no hiding, guilty parties were held to account and went to prison where relevant. Justice was served.

 

Hillsborough

 

An event where a police cover up tried to protect those who dropped the ball and caused the deaths of 96 innocent people by mismanaging crowd control and blaming it on 'hooligans.'

 

 

After today there can be no comparison between the two events.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Nope, not really. Fairly ambivalent about it, tbh.

 

The families feel some sense of vindication after continuing to dredge this up for a quarter of a century. I hope it brings them some pain relief.

 

Only the revenge part to go, I suppose....

 

Dredge it up? That's your choice of words? So callous. You really are a sad person.

[Thedelldays]

Heysel.

 

An event where there was no hiding, guilty parties were held to account and went to prison where relevant. Justice was served.

 

Hillsborough

 

An event where a police cover up tried to protect those who dropped the ball and caused the deaths of 96 innocent people by mismanaging crowd control and blaming it on 'hooligans.'

 

 

After today there can be no comparison between the two events.

 

Why are you biting... No matter what thread or subject, alpine has to disagree and argue

[aintforever]

I think it is only right that quotes are referenced - have you got a link?

 

In any case we should be careful with the Taylor report, after all they were dealing with corrupt public agencies and fabricated/altered evidence.

 

Page 47 of the Taylor report:

 

4 – The need to open gate C was due to dangerous congestion at the turnstiles. That occurred because, as both Club and police should have realised, the turnstile area could not easily cope with the large numbers demanded of it unless they arrived steadily over a lengthy period. The Operational Order and police tactics on the day failed to provide for controlling a concentrated arrival of large numbers should that occur in a short period. That it might so occur was foreseeable and it did. The presence of an unruly minority who had drunk too much aggravated the problem. So did the Club’s confused and inadequate signs and ticketing.

 

Blame for the tragedy has to lie with the Police but the fans behaviour influenced the police's poorly judged decision to open the gates, I remember seeing the TV footage outside the ground. I'm not saying that as a slur on scousers, it could just as easily have been Saints fans there. But football fans in the 80's were generally aggressive, hard to control and usually ****ed. You can say that's just the nature of football fans but IMO we should all be responsible for our actions.

[The9]

Heysel and Hillsborough were years apart. And probably attended by vastly different people. But then you know that, I'm sure. Alas, your constant determination to prove your point about the "Liverpool disease" leads you headlong into another foot-in-mouth saga where you only show your own ignorance rather than actually enter into any proper debate (whereby you might actually listen to and disseminate the opinion of the other side).

 

In short, you'll pardon me if I consider you to be ignorant of the actual facts and, for some unknown reason, determined to portray a contrary yet controversial opinion. Again.

 

As I alluded to earlier in this thread; just how would you feel if you had allowed your children to attend a football match with the same outcome as this? Would you perhaps act the same?

 

He talks bolllocks all of the time, just ignore him.

 

The evidence found on the terrace in Brussels indicates that the Heysel rioting was heavily influenced by Combat18 and National Front supporters and the Liverpool fans were infiltrated with numerous known English hooligans from other clubs - not that it would have much relevance even if they were all bona fide scousers.

 

As far as people at a football match running in groups and chasing the opposition away - wasn't there some footage of Saints fans doing that at Bristol Rovers on here a few months ago ? There's a reason hooligans were categorised, and it's because some are instigators, some are followers, and a lot just stay out of it. If you get a lot of people intent on causing trouble, then you're going to get others following that example. The only similarities with Hillsborough are the running crowd (vastly different in composition and motive between the two incidents) and the presence of a football team wearing all red.

 

The lack of ability to empathise with the families of people who just went to a football match, happened to be at the front of the crowd (where kids usually went on terraces) and died because of it belies a much deeper sickness. Then again, I might be a little oversensitive to it as I was at Anfield the week before to see them beat (ironically) Sheffield Wednesday 5-1 in a morning kick off before the Grand National in the afternoon. Luckily for me, my dad wasn't able to get tickets for us for the match the week after.

[The Kraken]

Page 47 of the Taylor report:

Blame for the tragedy has to lie with the Police but the fans behaviour influenced the police's poorly judged decision to open the gates, I remember seeing the TV footage outside the ground. I'm not saying that as a slur on scousers, it could just as easily have been Saints fans there. But football fans in the 80's were generally aggressive, hard to control and usually ****ed. You can say that's just the nature of football fans but IMO we should all be responsible for our actions.

 

Your first part, I don't agree with you saying the word "influenced". Perhaps a small difference, but I would say "strengthened" would be a better word. The doors were opened because of the bulk of fans (many of whom weren't overly drunk and/or aggressive) not being able to gain access to the stadium due to its dilapidated state and poor control. And the late arrival of fans was caused by a number of factors, including traffic, motorway accidents etc and not by a pre-organised desire by fans to arrive at the last minute to cause trouble (as had been reported in certain media at the time and since).

 

Yes, we should all be responsible for our actions. Some of the Liverpool fans on the day should not be considered blameless; that is not the truth, and you're right to point that out. I'd like to see a decent balance of blame apportioned properly; I'm not sure that will entirely happen; but it is good that the balance has started to be redressed.

[Colinjb]

Why are you biting... No matter what thread or subject, alpine has to disagree and argue

 

Because it's an emotive subject that has well and truly hit home with me, listening to interviews with people who were there on Talksport today was really harrowing. People who had been labelled as criminal by the authorities, people who were denied help, people who were just a few seconds of arrival time away from being killed themselves.... and yet being derided as scum in the media to deflect the real issue.

 

Justice must now be served.

 

And yes, the b*tching over the loose semantics of the situation when the Liverpool fan groups have admitted themselves that the rushing into the ground will not have helped and that this is a complex issue is really f**king annoying me. The underlying injustice surfaced today, that is the crux of the matter, anyone arguing otherwise needs to be put in their place.

Edited 12 September, 2012 by Colinjb

[Thedelldays]

 

Nice touch at the time

[The Kraken]

The lack of ability to empathise with the families of people who just went to a football match, happened to be at the front of the crowd (where kids usually went on terraces) and died because of it belies a much deeper sickness. Then again, I might be a little oversensitive to it as I was at Anfield the week before to see them beat (ironically) Sheffield Wednesday 5-1 in a morning kick off before the Grand National in the afternoon. Luckily for me, my dad wasn't able to get tickets for us for the match the week after.

 

To your whole post; indeed, and agreed.

 

to the last paragraph; half of my family call Liverpool their home, so I have a good deal of understanding around the subject. However, were that not to be the case, I'd certainly hope to display some more empathy to the situation than some of the more distateful and unnecessary comments I've seen on here. Quite what posesses some people to take up such a contrary yet attacking prose, I will truly never know. Thankfully such emotions are in the minority, and most rational people can rise above petty bickering to share in what is ultimately a rather poignant day.

[The Kraken]

Jimmy McGovern's dramatisation of Hillsborough.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf15PAPnAik

 

Very moving and insightful, especially so at the time of production.

[Guan 2.0]

Heysel and Hillsborough were years apart. And probably attended by vastly different people. But then you know that, I'm sure. Alas, your constant determination to prove your point about the "Liverpool disease" leads you headlong into another foot-in-mouth saga where you only show your own ignorance rather than actually enter into any proper debate (whereby you might actually listen to and disseminate the opinion of the other side).

In short, you'll pardon me if I consider you to be ignorant of the actual facts and, for some unknown reason, determined to portray a contrary yet controversial opinion. Again.

 

As I alluded to earlier in this thread; just how would you feel if you had allowed your children to attend a football match with the same outcome as this? Would you perhaps act the same?

 

His record so far points to an insecure pseud who, try as he might to present himself as an iconoclast, constantly exposes himself for what he actually is - a third rate troll. Especially in his employment as a defense as that of an over eager devils advocate, or even worse, the 'top gear defense'.

[laughing now]

Whatever your current view I recommend taking some time out and read some of the witness statements:

 

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/catalogue/index/organisation/south-yorkshire-police/outofscope/all/perpage/20/page/12.html

[Gemmel]

Nope, not really. Fairly ambivalent about it, tbh.

 

The families feel some sense of vindication after continuing to dredge this up for a quarter of a century. I hope it brings them some pain relief.

 

Only the revenge part to go, I suppose....

 

Totally out of order, will sound like a cheap shot, but as a non attending football fan you have no right to comment.

 

Go to bed.

[Saint_clark]

Well there is something I have never seen - A front page apology form the Sun... Has anyone read the section of the report that deals with how the Sun's editorial direction went for that smear yet?

 

They won't (and shouldn't) regain any respect for apologising. They had absolutely no choice in the situation, a printed apology is the absolute bare minimum of expectations.

[Gemmel]

They won't (and shouldn't) regain any respect for apologising. They had absolutely no choice in the situation, a printed apology is the absolute bare minimum of expectations.

 

For what it is worth i agree, but is your post not a complete contridiction

[Saint_clark]

For what it is worth i agree, but is your post not a complete contridiction

 

Not as I see it, the fact they had no choice means that it's a hollow apology. Everybody knows they had to print it. If they hadn't apologised then I honestly would have seen them going out of business within a year or two.

[JustMike]

Heysel.

 

An event where there was no hiding, guilty parties were held to account and went to prison where relevant. Justice was served.

 

Hillsborough

 

An event where a police cover up tried to protect those who dropped the ball and caused the deaths of 96 innocent people by mismanaging crowd control and blaming it on 'hooligans.'

 

 

After today there can be no comparison between the two events.

 

this!

[saintbletch]

I've slept on this now and I still cannot believe the scale of deception over such a long period of time.

 

During that time people must have known or come to know information that made them think "this is wrong".

 

Keeping something like this quiet would surely take the cooperation of many, many people involving the Police, Whitehall secretaries and perhaps successive government ministers.

 

I'm particularly interested in what Margaret Thatcher's government knew and also what the lady herself might have known.

 

I can't imagine what range of emotions those directly involved with the tragedy will be feeling right now.

[trousers]

@mediaguardian: Hillsborough: news agency says it reported story 'faithfully' to the Sun http://t.co/43iLZE6j