Hillsborough

[The Kraken]

Good summary LD

 

Still in this thread there are people blaming widescale drunkenness, ticketlessness and other such rebuffed theories. A little learning goes a long way.

[Bearsy]

There is some pretty bad stuff in that report I can see why they was keeping it quiet!

 

The Chief Constable asked about the number of fans outside the ground without tickets because ‘it’s going to be a major issue’. Supt Marshall estimated ‘200/250 probably more’ while Inspector Paul Hand-Davies, a mounted officer, considered it ‘nearer ... 1,000 and that would be typical for Liverpool ... opportunists, they look for opportunities to pinch a ticket, to rob a ticket’.

 

Paul Hand-Davies ain't gonna be popular!

[Bearsy]

Liverpool fans, seeing the uncovered breasts of a dead girl shouted “pass her over here and we’ll f... her

 

That's one of the things Inspector Gordon Sykes was going round telling newspapers apparently.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

I wonder if anyone will employ kelvin mcenzie again?

 

Probably

 

He has apologised.

[The Kraken]

He has apologised.

 

And what a pile of tripe that apology was; such a weak deflection of the blame and responsibility.

 

On Question Time a few years back (2007 I believe) he was asked if he would like to apologise about anything related to the coverage of Hillsborough. His response: "I wasn't sorry then and I'm not sorry now".

 

I think he may need police protection for a while now this has all come out, he's currently public enemy number one.

[Huffton]

I've seen some ridiculous things posted on message boards, but this is one of the most offensive and downright stupid things I have ever read on here.

 

It has nothing to do with them being Liverpool fans. It has nothing to do with them being from Liverpool. It has everything to do with them being human beings who died because of the incompetence of the authorities, and who subsequently found themselves being blamed and stigmatised in order to cover up what really happened.

 

Totally agree, and then he has the temerity to ***** and whine when people bite back at him.

 

Alpine, the youngest victim was 10. 10. His blood was tested for alcohol at the request of the police, at 10 years old. Are his parents allowed some self pity?

***t

Edited 12 September, 2012 by Huffton

[trousers]

I'm no Kelvin MacKenzie apologist but isn't he simply guilty of taking what he was told by the police and local MP as gospel (and representing it in the usual Sun insensitive way) rather than publishing something he knew to be incorrect at the time?

 

As I say, I've no desire to defend him per se but are people finding him guilty of the wrong 'crime'?

[The Kraken]

I'm no Kelvin MacKenzie apologist but isn't he simply guilty of taking what he was told by the police and local MP as gospel (and representing it in the usual Sun insensitive way) rather than publishing something he knew to be incorrect at the time?

 

As I say, I've no desire to defend him per se but are people finding him guilty of the wrong 'crime'?

 

Not really, no.

 

In their history of The Sun, Peter Chippendale and Chris Horrie wrote:

 

As MacKenzie's layout was seen by more and more people, a collective shudder ran through the office (but) MacKenzie's dominance was so total there was nobody left in the organisation who could rein him in except Murdoch. (Everyone in the office) seemed paralysed – "looking like rabbits in the headlights" – as one hack described them. The error staring them in the face was too glaring. It obviously wasn't a silly mistake; nor was it a simple oversight. Nobody really had any comment on it—they just took one look and went away shaking their heads in wonder at the enormity of it. It was a 'classic smear'.

[Thedelldays]

Mckennzie used to run talksport

 

Micky quinn was known earlier saying they were always instructed not to talk about Hillsborough on air by kelvin... Quinny did once and was sacked on the spot..... He then came back obviously

[trousers]

Not really, no.

 

In their history of The Sun, Peter Chippendale and Chris Horrie wrote:

 

But are they accusing him of publishing something that he knew to be untrue?

[The Kraken]

Also his insistence to carry on refusing to atone for his error is striking:

 

MacKenzie explained his reporting in 1993. Talking to a House of Commons National Heritage Select Committee, he said: "I regret Hillsborough. It was a fundamental mistake. The mistake was I believed what an MP said. It was a Tory MP. If he had not said it and the Chief Superintendent (David Duckenfield) had not agreed with it, we would not have gone with it."

 

MacKenzie repudiated this apology in November 2006, saying that he only apologised because the newspaper's owner Rupert Murdoch ordered him to do so. He said, "I was not sorry then and I'm not sorry now" for the paper's coverage. MacKenzie refused again to apologise when appearing on the BBC's topical Question Time on 11 January 2007.

[Thedelldays]

How much more is the sun going to be shamed before people actually stop buying it en-masse

[The Kraken]

How much more is the sun going to be shamed before people actually stop buying it en-masse

 

A wonderful question, DD. I'm still ashamed when friends I'm with buy that tawdry rag, there are so many reasons not to read it.

 

Unfortunately its a paper that appeals to the lowest common denominator, many of whom don't know any better.

[Noodles34]

So no ****ed up,ticketless scousers played any part in this tragedy.

 

Lets just blame the emergency services then.

all parties played their part,all tried to shift the blame.

Football fans in the 80's were all angels and law abiding citizens obviously.

 

amazing! Truly amazing that you can say this.

 

Tickless fans were not to blame, people like you were, and people like you covered up the facts to protect themselves whilst blaming an easy target.

[Thedelldays]

amazing! Truly amazing that you can say this.

 

Tickless fans were not to blame, people like you were, and people like you covered up the facts to protect themselves whilst blaming an easy target.

 

I think people are just sceptical. Fans at that time were nasty ****s at best... And Liverpool fans (amongst others I guess) had previous of turning up without tickets and trying to surge the turnstiles.

 

Why would this one game be any different from the norm?

 

Anyway. They have officially been cleared to no use going on about them

[Noodles34]

A wonderful question, DD. I'm still ashamed when friends I'm with buy that tawdry rag, there are so many reasons not to read it.

 

Unfortunately its a paper that appeals to the lowest common denominator, many of whom don't know any better.

 

I havent bought a newspaper in years, Echo excepted and the very odd train journey etc. I cant stand the red tops, they are all driven by the ****** of celebrity and sensational crap as well as the dark side of listening in to a dead 14 year olds voicemail and distorting evidence.

[View From The Top]

This thread clearly identifies total & utter cu.nts.

 

I'm ashamed to be of the same species, let alone support the same club.

[Noodles34]

I think people are just sceptical. Fans at that time were nasty ****s at best... And Liverpool fans (amongst others I guess) had previous of turning up without tickets and trying to surge the turnstiles.

 

Why would this one game be any different from the norm?

 

Anyway. They have officially been cleared to no use going on about them

 

we have all turned up without tickets at one time or another, excuse for not realising that could lead me to going home in a body bag!

 

What people seem to be implying is that the police werent able to make the right decisions because too many people did not have tickets and wanted to get in.

You have answered your own question in saying "was this one game any different?" Well, if it wasnt, then why did the authorities get it so wrong?

THats what made this game so different mate, because 96 never came home.

[Thedelldays]

A wonderful question, DD. I'm still ashamed when friends I'm with buy that tawdry rag, there are so many reasons not to read it.

 

Unfortunately its a paper that appeals to the lowest common denominator, many of whom don't know any better.

 

In used to buy the sun.... It was tested severely over the years but believe it or not... After the mocking of Roy Hodgson when he got the England job was enough for me....

 

When they came out as some sort of beacon of free press and published pictures of prince Harry..... I did laugh.

 

Such a disgusting news paper and tomorrow, no doubt they will distance themselves from kelvin Mckenzie and offer some sort of apology etc and be back to xfactor/Cheryl Cole at the weekend

[Crisp]

But are they accusing him of publishing something that he knew to be untrue?

 

Other newspapers were given the same information but didn't publish it.

 

I see your point but he knew exactly what he was doing.

[Noodles34]

So, its nearly quarter of a century on; what do you suggest ?

 

come on out with it, its all down to money. They can hold an individual enquiry for each of the deceased, it still aint going to bring them back, sadly.

 

Arent the relatives just reliving and reliving some extremely painful memories by keeping this going ? Jesus, look forward to whats left of your lives, I say....Would this still be dragging on if it had happened to the fans of any other team, fron any other city ?

 

Would the police or the Governement give or had given one iota of a flying f**k if it had been Saints fans in the Leppings Lane end ?

 

OMG - Just go back to trolling about our defense, obviously a much more important subject in your sad little world.

[Thedelldays]

we have all turned up without tickets at one time or another, excuse for not realising that could lead me to going home in a body bag!

 

What people seem to be implying is that the police werent able to make the right decisions because too many people did not have tickets and wanted to get in.

You have answered your own question in saying "was this one game any different?" Well, if it wasnt, then why did the authorities get it so wrong?

THats what made this game so different mate, because 96 never came home.

 

Fair point... Just trying to give a view on why people may be sceptical about large numbers of fans not playing up back in 1989

[Sour Mash]

But are they accusing him of publishing something that he knew to be untrue?

Depends if you believe this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-19507065

[Frank's cousin]

This thread clearly identifies total & utter cu.nts.

 

I'm ashamed to be of the same species, let alone support the same club.

 

er... no this thread identifies those with different opinions based on different levels of knowledge surely? Its clear from teh evidence that

 

a) there was a cover up - the police made huge errors that caused the tragedy and then tried to pretend it was the fans at fault

b) The Sun seemed happy to tow the tory party line and agree to the smear

c) The ground was not fit for purpose - I say to all thso ewho constantly whinge about 'elf and safety' - its political correctness gone mad brigade - that those 96 would not have died as a result of modern H+S standards

d) Pens and fences were in place as a result of fans previous behaviour - a decade + of hoolis that still seem to engender some sort of misty eyed nostalgia in some (bizarrely) - had they not been there, the deaths would not have occurred

e) ...perhaps the most controvercial is that people do always have a choice - yes I acknowledge that crowds do behave in a unique way, but when you see a big crowd/queue there is a need for common sense surely?

[Sour Mash]

er... no this thread identifies those with different opinions based on different levels of knowledge surely? Its clear from teh evidence that

 

a) there was a cover up - the police made huge errors that caused the tragedy and then tried to pretend it was the fans at fault

b) The Sun seemed happy to tow the tory party line and agree to the smear

c) The ground was not fit for purpose - I say to all thso ewho constantly whinge about 'elf and safety' - its political correctness gone mad brigade - that those 96 would not have died as a result of modern H+S standards

d) Pens and fences were in place as a result of fans previous behaviour - a decade + of hoolis that still seem to engender some sort of misty eyed nostalgia in some (bizarrely) - had they not been there, the deaths would not have occurred

e) ...perhaps the most controvercial is that people do always have a choice - yes I acknowledge that crowds do behave in a unique way, but when you see a big crowd/queue there is a need for common sense surely?

What is your actual point then?

[The Kraken]

Other newspapers were given the same information but didn't publish it.

 

I see your point but he knew exactly what he was doing.

 

Actually, they did.

 

Other corners of the media also pinned the blame for the disaster at least partly on Liverpool fans, including the Daily Star, which ran the front page headline "Dead Fans Robbed By Drunk Thugs" on 18 April 1989. The Sheffield Star published allegations similar to those in The Sun, running the headline "Fans In Drunken Attacks On Police", and the Liverpool Daily Post published an article entitled "I Blame the Yobs".

[View From The Top]

er... no this thread identifies those with different opinions based on different levels of knowledge surely? Its clear from teh evidence that

 

a) there was a cover up - the police made huge errors that caused the tragedy and then tried to pretend it was the fans at fault

b) The Sun seemed happy to tow the tory party line and agree to the smear

c) The ground was not fit for purpose - I say to all thso ewho constantly whinge about 'elf and safety' - its political correctness gone mad brigade - that those 96 would not have died as a result of modern H+S standards

d) Pens and fences were in place as a result of fans previous behaviour - a decade + of hoolis that still seem to engender some sort of misty eyed nostalgia in some (bizarrely) - had they not been there, the deaths would not have occurred

e) ...perhaps the most controvercial is that people do always have a choice - yes I acknowledge that crowds do behave in a unique way, but when you see a big crowd/queue there is a need for common sense surely?

 

No, it identifies total and utter cu.nts.

[The Kraken]

I'm with VFTT. The actual truth has been out there for long enough, for those who actually want to see it. Some will even still deny it, I'm sure.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

And what a pile of tripe that apology was; such a weak deflection of the blame and responsibility.

 

On Question Time a few years back (2007 I believe) he was asked if he would like to apologise about anything related to the coverage of Hillsborough. His response: "I wasn't sorry then and I'm not sorry now".

 

I think he may need police protection for a while now this has all come out, he's currently public enemy number one.

 

I think there is an element of witch hunting going on with Mackenzie. He liked sensational headlines and that is what he gave. Ultimately the Tory MP and the copper were to blame for giving him 'the inside track'. They fed him the headlines which at the time four years after Heysel were a conclusion that many were jumping too.

[Lord Duckhunter]

 

You have answered your own question in saying "was this one game any different?" Well, if it wasnt, then why did the authorities get it so wrong?

THats what made this game so different mate, because 96 never came home.

 

What truely depresses me is that this could have been any number of clubs supporters, including ours. Yet people still seem to want to blame Scousers. Maybe it's a hangover from Heysel, when they were to blame, maybe it's stupid Harry Enfield stereotype's, I dont know. ****ing hell, these were normal, everyday people the same as supporters from all over the Country.Had a load of teenage girls died at a crush at a Wham concert in '89 I'm ****ing damn sure it would have been investigated correctly and people charged.

 

I defy anyone to read Trevor Hicks story and how he lost his 2 girls and not be moved to tears. I just hope that it is trolling on here and that we dont have supporters who really beliveve the nonsense they post.

 

What happened to the 96 was a tragedy,and the cover up was a national disgrace. Lets just hope that people are now called to account and the families may get a tiny bit of peace.

[The Kraken]

I think there is an element of witch hunting going on with Mackenzie. He liked sensational headlines and that is what he gave. Ultimately the Tory MP and the copper were to blame for giving him 'the inside track'. They fed him the headlines which at the time four years after Heysel were a conclusion that many were jumping too.

 

Perhaps. But his decision to publish the story in the manner in which he did, and the reprehensible way in which he has since acted and consistently refused to backtrack or properly apologise (especially in light of the Taylor Report which completely rejected The Sun's story) tells me that the witch hunt is entirely justified. He liked sensational headlines, he published one, it was absolutely wrong, and its taken him 23 years to finally apologise for it.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Perhaps. But his decision to publish the story in the manner in which he did, and the reprehensible way in which he has since acted and consistently refused to backtrack or properly apologise (especially in light of the Taylor Report which completely rejected The Sun's story) tells me that the witch hunt is entirely justified. He liked sensational headlines, he published one, it was absolutely wrong, and its taken him 23 years to finally apologise for it.

 

I am sure he is not blameless but that is how he made is name - big headlines and being outspoken. The villain of this piece are the Police who put together and enacted a complex plan to cover up their incompetence - part of the plan was to use the nation's biggest newspaper. The heroes of the story are the famillies and the British justice system - it may have taken a while but thank God we got there.

[The Kraken]

I am sure he is not blameless but that is how he made is name - big headlines and being outspoken. The villain of this piece are the Police who put together and enacted a complex plan to cover up their incompetence - part of the plan was to use the nation's biggest newspaper. The heroes of the story are the famillies and the British justice system - it may have taken a while but thank God we got there.

 

MacKenzie is the current devil incarnate; that will soon move on. The police at the time are of course as you say the true villans, and their time will come when they will finally be held to account.

 

I don't share your view that the British justice system is a hero; just the opposite, in fact. Its the very same justice system that has taken 23 years to finally arrive where we are, which is not justice in itself (yet). It has provided a sham of an enquiry and refused or whitewashed various attempts to get the case reopened and bring the perpetrators to justice. The only heroes here are the campaigners for all of their tireless work to get where we are today.

[BigShadow]

MacKenzie is the current devil incarnate; that will soon move on. The police at the time are of course as you say the true villans, and their time will come when they will finally be held to account.

 

I don't share your view that the British justice system is a hero; just the opposite, in fact. Its the very same justice system that has taken 23 years to finally arrive where we are, which is not justice in itself (yet). It has provided a sham of an enquiry and refused or whitewashed various attempts to get the case reopened and bring the perpetrators to justice. The only heroes here are the campaigners for all of their tireless work to get where we are today.

 

And what is the 'justice' that is sought? A fall guy? I struggle to see that one person will be held responsible for a sequence of poor decisions that resulted in, and to some extent, perpetuated this tragedy.

 

I hope the families feel at least some comfort in these findings, and I appreciate there are more answers needed - but a witch-hunt for those one or two individuals to be hung out to dry would not be right.

[The Kraken]

And what is the 'justice' that is sought? A fall guy? I struggle to see that one person will be held responsible for a sequence of poor decisions that resulted in, and to some extent, perpetuated this tragedy.

 

I hope the families feel at least some comfort in these findings, and I appreciate there are more answers needed - but a witch-hunt for those one or two individuals to be hung out to dry would not be right.

 

Why not? Take out the emotion of the exact whys and wherefores of lives being lost, and it being football related. It was a disaster where 96 people lost their lives, and the very same supporters who did all they could to help the dead/dying were then portrayed by the police as the cause of their deaths. The police, led by certain high ranking officers, led a dedicated campaign to alleviate themselves of all blame. They lied, they doctored exisiting police statements to achieve their aims, and they purposefully lay the blame at the feet of the innocent. There is also the possibility that they obstructed the course of justice, and also perjured themselves.

 

In light of that, I would ask why you think they shouldn't be brought to justice and held accountable for those actions?

[um pahars]

No, it identifies total and utter cu.nts.

 

Hillsbrough has been regularly posted about on here and the ignorance displayed by so many in those threads was awful.

 

However, on the day when the entire story emerges it is shameful to see the same myths, lies and falsehoods being peddled by some on here (& if anyone wants to query the power of the press and the establishment, they only need to look at Hillsborough to see how it possible to rewrite history and get people to believe any old shtt).

 

As Wurzel mentions, I stood on that terrace with 8,000 other Saints fans in 84. It could have happened to any one of us.

 

Some people should fcck off this thread pronto.

[View From The Top]

Hillsbrough has been regularly posted about on here and the ignorance displayed by so many in those threads was awful.

 

However, on the day when the real story emerges it is shameful to see the same myths, lies and falsehoods being peddled by some on here (& if anyone wants to query the power of the press and the establishment, they only need to look at Hillsborough to see how it possible to rewrite history and get people to believe any old shtt).

 

As Wurzel mentions, I stood on that terrace with 8,000 other Saints fans in 84. It could have happened to any one of us.

 

Some people should fcck off this thread pronto.

 

Those of us there in '84 understand instinctively the truth behind the 96.

[solentstars]

Hillsbrough has been regularly posted about on here and the ignorance displayed by so many in those threads was awful.

 

However, on the day when the real story emerges it is shameful to see the same myths, lies and falsehoods being peddled by some on here (& if anyone wants to query the power of the press and the establishment, they only need to look at Hillsborough to see how it possible to rewrite history and get people to believe any old shtt).

 

As Wurzel mentions, I stood on that terrace with 8,000 other Saints fans in 84. It could have happened to any one of us.

 

Some people should fcck off this thread pronto.

 

Good post sums it up with some people still defending the lies despite that version being proved to be lies today.justice at last for 96 human beings.

 

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk 2

[Bearsy]

Them ones that was doing the coverup should be charged. Dunno bout them ones doing dumb decisions in their work, I mean I'm sure they was doing their best or whatever. I do dumb decisions in my job all the time! (I'm a brain surgeons)

[dinger]

er... no this thread identifies those with different opinions based on different levels of knowledge surely? Its clear from teh evidence that

 

a) there was a cover up - the police made huge errors that caused the tragedy and then tried to pretend it was the fans at fault

b) The Sun seemed happy to tow the tory party line and agree to the smear

c) The ground was not fit for purpose - I say to all thso ewho constantly whinge about 'elf and safety' - its political correctness gone mad brigade - that those 96 would not have died as a result of modern H+S standards

d) Pens and fences were in place as a result of fans previous behaviour - a decade + of hoolis that still seem to engender some sort of misty eyed nostalgia in some (bizarrely) - had they not been there, the deaths would not have occurred

e) ...perhaps the most controvercial is that people do always have a choice - yes I acknowledge that crowds do behave in a unique way, but when you see a big crowd/queue there is a need for common sense surely?

 

d) Your point is correct but irrelevant. If I got crushed to death against the wall of my living room, the question would not be why the wall was there, but why I had 100 other people in the room with me.

 

e) It is perfectly acceptable practice in a crowd situation to follow the direction of the designated authorities (e.g. stewards and police). Those authorities continued to funnel supporters into an overcrowded pen, when neighbouring pens were underfilled. The supporters at the back could not have known about the tragedy at the front; they continued to push their way into the pen because they had been instructed to by the police. Why were they pushing? Because the pen was full. Why was it full? Because the police kept telling more people to go in. Perhaps you would have acted differently. Well done you. Perhaps there are a handful of people who are haunted by the thought that they were in too much of a hurry. But they can have had no reason whatsoever to suspect that they would be indirectly responsible for the deaths of their fellow fans. Why? Because there would have been no problem had not the trusted representatives of authority so badly let down those under their care. Your point is true as far as it goes, but in the context of events it's relatively unimportant and your persistent reiteration of it is making you come across as self-satisfied and uncaring.

[The9]

Anyone offering any opinion should read this first:

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/hillsborough-documents-released-brian-reade-1318730

 

That is an astonishingly emotive piece of writing. It also notes that there were "some" ticketless fans, as there were in 1986 when I went to the first Merseyside FA Cup Final and we all watched people bunking up the Twin Towers, and as a 13 year old I got crushed purely by the size of the crowd outside Wembley's entrances.

 

There were a lot of mistakes, but along with the police errors, lack of crowd control, failures in signposting, stewarding, infrastructure and planning, some of those at the back of the central pens were culpable for going in without tickets. Whether they were sufficient in number to be the difference in the overcrowded pen being full or not is highly unlikely though.

 

The treating of the dead as criminals is especially appalling, as they would have been at the front, long in the ground before the gates were opened and of course unlikely to have traces of alcohol - the drinkers would have been nowhere near the front.

 

The one thing I have realised today is how impossible it must be for anyone who started watching football after 1992 to relate to the ground, facilities and atmosphere around football at that time. It's just nothing like the same, and that's got to be a good thing.

Edited 12 September, 2012 by The9

[The9]

d) Your point is correct but irrelevant. If I got crushed to death against the wall of my living room, the question would not be why the wall was there, but why I had 100 other people in the room with me.

 

e) It is perfectly acceptable practice in a crowd situation to follow the direction of the designated authorities (e.g. stewards and police). Those authorities continued to funnel supporters into an overcrowded pen, when neighbouring pens were underfilled. The supporters at the back could not have known about the tragedy at the front; they continued to push their way into the pen because they had been instructed to by the police. Why were they pushing? Because the pen was full. Why was it full? Because the police kept telling more people to go in. Perhaps you would have acted differently. Well done you. Perhaps there are a handful of people who are haunted by the thought that they were in too much of a hurry. But they can have had no reason whatsoever to suspect that they would be indirectly responsible for the deaths of their fellow fans. Why? Because there would have been no problem had not the trusted representatives of authority so badly let down those under their care. Your point is true as far as it goes, but in the context of events it's relatively unimportant and your persistent reiteration of it is making you come across as self-satisfied and uncaring.

 

Is there any evidence of the police actively channelling fans into the central pens as you suppose ? My understanding (supported by the Mirror article) was always that

the gates were opened and then there were NO attempts at steering fans anywhere by anyone. The central pens were the shaft of light and the pitch was visible from the gate and people headed there for those reasons and because it was the shortest point.

 

Wurzel's comments earlier about the Leppings Lane stand and not seeing the side steps to the empty side pens and no-one around suggesting they went there recreates the Disaster scenario exactly.

[krissyboy31]

Is there any evidence of the police actively channelling fans into the central pens as you suppose ? My understanding (supported by the Mirror article) was always that

the gates were opened and then there were NO attempts at steering fans anywhere by anyone. The central pens were the shaft of light and the pitch was visible from the gate and people headed there for those reasons and because it was the shortest point.

 

Wurzel's comments earlier about the Leppings Lane stand and not seeing the side steps to the empty side pens and no-one around suggesting they went there recreates the Disaster scenario exactly.

It was the most visible entrance to the terracing and the obvious place to head towards. I seem to remember when we were there for the '84 QF the middle pen was overcrowded for that reason (obviously nowhere near as crowded as the '89 SF though).

[The9]

The basic truth is that those poor innocents were crushed by other fans. Those at the back must have been pushing and shoving despite the resistance from those in front of them.

 

You don't really seem to understand how crowds work. Once you were in that pen there was nowhere to go, and if there were the larger part of 2000 others behind you, you wouldn't have to be doing anything to exert forward pressure.

[The9]

It was the most visible entrance to the terracing and the obvious place to head towards. I seem to remember when we were there for the '84 QF the middle pen was overcrowded for that reason (obviously nowhere near as crowded as the '89 SF though).

 

Well yeah, I'm just clarifying that for someone who thinks the police were actively directing people towards it. The geography of the gate and the entrance did all the channelling, as Taylor reported, the major failing was to open the gate with no method of keeping people out of the crammed areas.

[dinger]

Is there any evidence of the police actively channelling fans into the central pens as you suppose ? My understanding (supported by the Mirror article) was always that

the gates were opened and then there were NO attempts at steering fans anywhere by anyone. The central pens were the shaft of light and the pitch was visible from the gate and people headed there for those reasons and because it was the shortest point.

 

Wurzel's comments earlier about the Leppings Lane stand and not seeing the side steps to the empty side pens and no-one around suggesting they went there recreates the Disaster scenario exactly.

 

You make a good point, and I should probably be more careful. This quote from a witness (taken from the Guardian) will be more accurate:

 

"Approaching the tunnel that led down to our standing area behind the goal, and still shocked by the previous crush, I bought a carton of Kia-Ora near the tunnel's entrance. Hundreds of fans started to approach, and my fear returned. This was the only entrance to the pens directly behind the goal. "Don't go down there, mate, it's gonna be packed," I told a group of fellow fans. Like many others who thought they had come through the worst, they passed me without comment. I remain convinced that just one steward or police officer directing fans to the side entrances, away from the central pens, could have saved many lives that day. Every day since, I have wondered if I could, and should, have done more."

[Frank's cousin]

d) Your point is correct but irrelevant. If I got crushed to death against the wall of my living room, the question would not be why the wall was there, but why I had 100 other people in the room with me.

 

e) It is perfectly acceptable practice in a crowd situation to follow the direction of the designated authorities (e.g. stewards and police). Those authorities continued to funnel supporters into an overcrowded pen, when neighbouring pens were underfilled. The supporters at the back could not have known about the tragedy at the front; they continued to push their way into the pen because they had been instructed to by the police. Why were they pushing? Because the pen was full. Why was it full? Because the police kept telling more people to go in. Perhaps you would have acted differently. Well done you. Perhaps there are a handful of people who are haunted by the thought that they were in too much of a hurry. But they can have had no reason whatsoever to suspect that they would be indirectly responsible for the deaths of their fellow fans. Why? Because there would have been no problem had not the trusted representatives of authority so badly let down those under their care. Your point is true as far as it goes, but in the context of events it's relatively unimportant and your persistent reiteration of it is making you come across as self-satisfied and uncaring.

 

That's not my intention, an am not quite sure why to come to that conclusion. Today was about truth - and in some respects that these facts have finally been revealed one hopes goes some way to giving the families some peace, although it will never replace the tragic loss of life. But I cant pretend to be emotionally involved - Whilst I have every sympathy for the victims and their families, and can understand the impact and grief they have suffered as well as admire their search for the truth, I cant pretend I know how it feels or felt. That's not being uncaring or self satisfied.

 

It might be a 'small point' - but I dont believe its an insignificant one if the whole purpose of today is about truth - then it remains important to consider every aspect no matter how small an impact you believe it to have had. If you consider what happened afterwards as the Taylor report recommendations were implemented - - with respect to safety and the removal of the pens and caging, it suggests that this factor was significant.

 

The police were to blame, the fans suffered a smear campaign that is understood and at last that truth is out there. But I dont see why the simple fact that fan behaviour in the 70s and 80s directly led to that environment where those police errors would ultimately lead to the tragedy is in any way wrong to include.

 

BUT there is simply NO justification or excuse for why the police then covered this up and smeared the fans - and yes I like many believed a lot of what was filtered through the media - that opinion has changed as more of the facts came out.

[dan17]

Those of us there in '84 understand instinctively the truth behind the 96.

 

Excuse my ignorance VFTT but what happened in 84?

 

Genuinely interested (was only 4 years old at the time)

[St Chalet]

You don't really seem to understand how crowds work. Once you were in that pen there was nowhere to go, and if there were the larger part of 2000 others behind you, you wouldn't have to be doing anything to exert forward pressure.

 

Its actually worse, not only the force of the crowd but the sloping design of a terraced stand adds gravity to the equation.

 

I remember those scenes and the stories at the time, truly awful.

 

Very glad the truth has started to come out today.

[View From The Top]

Excuse my ignorance VFTT but what happened in 84?

 

Genuinely interested (was only 4 years old at the time)

 

FA Cup game, 8000+ Saints fans, Leppings Lane chaos & South Yorks OB.

 

Could have been us.