Hillsborough

[Whitey Grandad]

all a bit simple. do some reading if doesn't hurt your brain too much.

 

There's no need for that. Sometimes people can't see the essence of the situation.

[Lets B Avenue]

Excellent statement from the PM. Profoundly sorry for the double injustice that the families have endured. Praised the community that backed them all the way. Very moving, and if I'm honest, never thought I'd see the say, let alone a Conservative Prime Minister handling the issue so sensitively, eloquently and unambiguously.

 

Absolutely. An astonishing 15 minutes, I never thought we would ever see.

 

I see they are having a vigil and a two minute silence. The people of Liverpool will be so pleased. Fair enough if people want to see these papers, but it doesn't bring anyone back, as a relative says it will just open old wounds. It's largely pointless.

 

You couldnt have been more wrong, although I'm sure you will continue to try.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

I agree that there were many factors more to blame, I just think the way football fans were during the 80's contributed. There was a crush outside not an orderly queue, why was that?

 

Because the people at the back don't know what's going on in front. The fans trying to get into the stadium had no conception that people in the front of the terrace were dying, why would they?

 

People take for granted the management of flows of people that now occurrs in modern stadia that are designed to avoid these situations. The whole design of that end acted like a huge funnel squeezing large numbers of fans into a confined space, even once you were in the area immediately behind the terrace you were stuck with no where to go. Compare that to SMS. Huge open areas outside the turnstiles, plenty of stewards organising lines into each turnstile, plenty of turnstiles, once through the turnstiles there are large open concourse with clearly marked entrances to the seats.

[solentstars]

looks like their has been a big cover up at the establishment at the time the police,emergency services some mps and there friends in the media particularly the sun who printed lies knowing they were false.

23 years for the familys who only wanted the truth and answers and the facts why some of there sons daughters fathers those would still be alive if the emergency services did not do there jobs. thank god the truth has finally come out after a 23 year cover up.

[The Kraken]

I agree that there were many factors more to blame, I just think the way football fans were during the 80's contributed. There was a crush outside not an orderly queue, why was that?

 

Perhaps you should read the Interim Taylor Report which goes into all sorts of details. Including why there was a crush outside. Its not a long document, and the full facts are summarised in just a few short pages.

 

Some of the ignorance in this thread is astounding.

[solentstars]

Excellent statement from the PM. Profoundly sorry for the double injustice that the families have endured. Praised the community that backed them all the way. Very moving, and if I'm honest, never thought I'd see the day, let alone a Conservative Prime Minister handling the issue so sensitively, eloquently and unambiguously.

agree a decenct guy in my opinion .

[The Kraken]

Is indeed a good read and no one is saying that the those who died were in anyway to blame' date=' nor that it was caused by Hooligans etc. But the problem as I see it is that fans do need to think about why the conditions existed for such a tragedy to happen... the culture, environment and atmosphere were a result of the way fans had behaved, and although it can be argued that treating fans as annimals was not the solution, the cages etc were there as a consequence of fan behaviour. The druive for the truth is vital - the need for disclosure and removeal of the slurs on peoples names following made up reporting needs to be resolved.... [b']but when it comes to blame, surely there is a need to accept that fans did play a part.[/b]

 

There already is an acceptance of that. Taylor's report laid the majority of the blame at the police, both inside and outside the ground, but mentioned that "the presence of an unruly minority who had drunk too much aggravated the problem."

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

There's no need for that. Sometimes people can't see the essence of the situation.

 

Or sometimes people can't be bothered to explore an issue but deliver an opinion anyway?

[View From The Top]

Perhaps you should read the Interim Taylor Report which goes into all sorts of details. Including why there was a crush outside. Its not a long document, and the full facts are summarised in just a few short pages.

 

Some of the ignorance in this thread is astounding.

 

You seem surprised.

 

They can have their own opinions but they cannot have their own facts.

[View From The Top]

agree a decenct guy in my opinion .

 

Perhaps losing a child means he's attuned to the pain of those who have gone through the same. I'd like to think so.

[badgerx16]

From the BBC live news feed

 

Breaking News The report states that some individuals who died at Hillsborough could have had reversable asphyxia. It says it is highly likely what happened after 15:15 BST was "significant in determining how they died".

[Graffito]

Well done VFTT and one or two others in posting the facts. There are some comments on here I find quite astonishing. Being generous I can only put them down to ignorance of the facts.

[Whitey Grandad]

Or sometimes people can't be bothered to explore an issue but deliver an opinion anyway?

You're in a queue. The people in front stop moving. Do you stop and wait patiently, or do you push and shove to try to get things moving? This was the fundamental question.

[solentstars]

Perhaps losing a child means he's attuned to the pain of those who have gone through the same. I'd like to think so.

i agree any loss is a tragedy .

[aintforever]

"the presence of an unruly minority who had drunk too much aggravated the problem."

 

That's exactly what my point was.

 

Some of the ignorance in this thread is astounding.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Perhaps you should read the Interim Taylor Report which goes into all sorts of details. Including why there was a crush outside. Its not a long document, and the full facts are summarised in just a few short pages.

 

Some of the ignorance in this thread is astounding.

 

There's even this thing called the interweb or something which makes looking at stuff really quick and easy.

[badgerx16]

The PM says the report is "black and white" in concluding "Liverpool fans were not the cause of the disaster".

[Bearsy]

The people at the back pushing was probably coppers. That makes it cleaner for everyone I spose. Hope them scum face charges!

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

You're in a queue. The people in front stop moving. Do you stop and wait patiently, or do you push and shove to try to get things moving? This was the fundamental question.

 

I think you're adopting a very simplistic approach so that you can draw a conclusion.

[Saint Malc]

I went to the Liverpool/Wimbledon FA Cup final the year before the Hillsborough disaster and I was totally shocked/scared at the actions of the Liverpool fans. I had a ticket for the neutral side (opposite the royal box) and it was full of Liverpool fans. Whilst queuing to get in, there were hundreds and hundreds of ticketless Liverpool fans pushing and shoving, trying to gain entry. At one stage a cry came up from the Liverpool fans at the back to 'storm the gates'. With this I was carried and squashed by the sea of fans and, I can honestly say, I feared for my life. You had to be there to witness the utter thoughtlessness shown by the Liverpool fans to appreciate the difficulty the decision was to (mistakenly in my view) open the gates at Hillsborough. There were so many ticketless Liverpool fans there that I did not get to the turnstiles until well after kick-off.

[badgerx16]

"116 of the 164 police statements submitted after the disaster were "amended to remove or alter comments unfavourable to South Yorkshire Police."

[Bearsy]

It don't take a lot of pushing I spose, I mean if there's 100 people behind me each pushing with 10% of their weight then I've got 10 fat ****s sitting on me. Surprised it never happens in Tesco

[corky morris]

And that ****** Kelvin McKenzie should never be allowed on TV again. He wrote that headline in The Sun. Utter disgrace.

[Yeovil Saint]

Well done VFTT and one or two others in posting the facts. There are some comments on here I find quite astonishing. Being generous I can only put them down to ignorance of the facts.

I'm not as generous. There is no excuse to be ignorant of the facts about Hillsborough. It's not something that just happened and reports are confusing, it happened 23 years ago and every event leading up to the disaster is well known. I know that ill-informed banter is the common currency of most messageboards, but idly apportioning blame for the deaths of 96 football supporters just like us without an understanding of the facts is out of order.

[Colinjb]

Now the truth is out justice must be done. It's as simple as that.

[solentstars]

The extent of the cover-up at hillsborough is breathtaking. I hope families gain some peace from truth finally being accepted by the prime minister.

Police changed the records of what happened and tried to blame the fans.

164 statments were significantly altered. Police tried to use national computer records to blame deceased.

this is a thorough vindication of Liverpool's campaign to exonerate its dead at the Hillsborough stadium. Bad stuff for officialdom says lives could have been saved if response was better.

[JackFrost]

You're in a queue. The people in front stop moving. Do you stop and wait patiently, or do you push and shove to try to get things moving? This was the fundamental question.

 

When you have a crowd of that size it's the nature of the beast. It is why a gathering of hundreds/thousands of people need to be policed in the first place.

 

As an ex-copper who did some crowd control in the 80s I'm afraid your take on how crowds move and function is naive to say the least. You'd be surprised at how few people it takes to push and shove to create a "surge", and the whole lot moves forward.

 

Besides how did the fans who were let in through the gate and into the dark narrow tunnel know that the pens in front of them were already beyond their safety limit? They didn't.

 

Those fans put their faith into the police to lead them into the stadium as safely and as quickly as possible and all the police did was open the gate, pray and hope it would all sort itself out. But it didn't, and they let 3000 people enter a space designed for 1600 people max and we all know what the consequences were.

 

Basic police crowd control procedures would have at the very minimum significantly reduced the crush. The fact is these procedures simply weren't in place.

[trousers]

DCMS ‏@DCMS The findings of the #Hillsborough Independent Panel are now online: http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/hc1213/hc05/0581/0581.pdf

[Frank's cousin]

There already is an acceptance of that. Taylor's report laid the majority of the blame at the police, both inside and outside the ground, but mentioned that "the presence of an unruly minority who had drunk too much aggravated the problem."

 

Was not necessarily talking about on that day Kracken - but the reason in general for why those pens/steel fences existed... the fact remains that had they not been there, no matter how incompentant and naive the ploice were, the deaths would most likelly have been averted. Yes in a way its a sepearte issue, but given the impact that day had, and quite rightly the focus on the truth, cover up etc. Its important that this issue is not forgotten.

[tpbury]

There was a lot of rotten arrogant football fans and people in the 80s (Thatcher anyone?), maybe too simplistic. It really was encouraged to be selfish and look after yourself before anyone else. Problem is, from what I recall they still only represented a minority of football fans, and I don't suppose many if any of this type were victims. From what I understand, this skanky 'charge the gates' kind of behaviour still shouldn't have lead to the deaths. Most clubs had/have these types of fans, and I suppose we've got a class A drug to thank that this behaviour doesn't go on so much nowadays - still could return?

[saint lard]

So no ****ed up,ticketless scousers played any part in this tragedy.

 

Lets just blame the emergency services then.

all parties played their part,all tried to shift the blame.

Football fans in the 80's were all angels and law abiding citizens obviously.

[Thedelldays]

So no ****ed up,ticketless scousers played any part in this tragedy.

 

Lets just blame the emergency services then.

all parties played their part,all tried to shift the blame.

Football fans in the 80's were all angels and law abiding citizens obviously.

 

It would be political suicide to even mention ticket less fans

[Yeovil Saint]

From Cameron's statement

 

The Report finds that this was part of police efforts – and I quote - “to develop and publicise a version of events that focused on…allegations of drunkenness, ticketlessness and violence.” In terms of changing the record of events, we already know that police reports were significantly altered but the full extent was not drawn to Lord Justice Taylor’s attention. Today’s Report finds that 164 statements were significantly amended – and 116 explicitly removed negative comments about the policing operation — including its lack of leadership. The report also makes important findings about particular actions taken by the police and coroner while investigating the deaths. There is new evidence which shows that police officers carried out police national computer checks on those who had died in an attempt – and I quote from the report — “to impugn the reputations of the deceased.”

[Yeovil Saint]

It would be political suicide to even mention ticket less fans

Why would anyone mention ticketless fans, that particular slur was discounted by the interim Taylor report in 1989. While it cannot be proven that there were no ticketless fans whatsoever, the total number of Liverpool fans in Leppings Lane end at 3:06pm was a couple of hundred less than the total number of tickets sold. That's why the side pens were at most half-full.

[alpine_saint]

Now the truth is out justice must be done. It's as simple as that.

 

So, its nearly quarter of a century on; what do you suggest ?

 

come on out with it, its all down to money. They can hold an individual enquiry for each of the deceased, it still aint going to bring them back, sadly.

 

Arent the relatives just reliving and reliving some extremely painful memories by keeping this going ? Jesus, look forward to whats left of your lives, I say....

 

Would this still be dragging on if it had happened to the fans of any other team, fron any other city ?

 

Would the police or the Governement give or had given one iota of a flying f**k if it had been Saints fans in the Leppings Lane end ?

Edited 12 September, 2012 by alpine_saint

[Thedelldays]

I wonder if the sun newspaper will issue a headline saying "we lied"

 

 

No chance

[alpine_saint]

I wonder if the sun newspaper will issue a headline saying "we lied"

 

 

No chance

 

Hmmmm. they did their job and sensationalised the story, but surely the story was originally fed from the police lies ?

[Yeovil Saint]

Would the police or the Governement give or had given one iota of a flying f**k if it had been Saints fans in the Leppings Lane end ?

It could have been Saints fans in Leppings Lane, Hillsborough could have easily been picked for Saints v Everton or Saints v Liverpool. And if it had been Saints fans that had died I would hope that we would have campaigned for the truth as much as the Liverpool fans did. I don't think the government would have cared, but we would have made them care.

[View From The Top]

Why would anyone mention ticketless fans, that particular slur was discounted by the interim Taylor report in 1989. While it cannot be proven that there were no ticketless fans whatsoever, the total number of Liverpool fans in Leppings Lane end at 3:06pm was a couple of hundred less than the total number of tickets sold. That's why the side pens were at most half-full.

 

As I've said. Many have their own opinions but we mustn't allow them to have their own facts.

[alpine_saint]

It could have been Saints fans in Leppings Lane, Hillsborough could have easily been picked for Saints v Everton or Saints v Liverpool. And if it had been Saints fans that had died I would hope that we would have campaigned for the truth as much as the Liverpool fans did. I don't think the government would have cared, but we would have made them care.

 

Hmmm, I genuinely dont think the voices of the people in southern constituencies get listened to as much as they do in northern constituencies. I still get annoyed how successive governements turned their backs on VT and gave all frigate and destroyer contracts to northern yards.

[Our Claus]

Would this still be dragging on if it had happened to the fans of any other team, fron any other city ?

 

Would the police or the Governement give or had given one iota of a flying f**k if it had been Saints fans in the Leppings Lane end ?

 

I've seen some ridiculous things posted on message boards, but this is one of the most offensive and downright stupid things I have ever read on here.

 

It has nothing to do with them being Liverpool fans. It has nothing to do with them being from Liverpool. It has everything to do with them being human beings who died because of the incompetence of the authorities, and who subsequently found themselves being blamed and stigmatised in order to cover up what really happened.

[Yeovil Saint]

Last post - really need to get back to work but here's a section of the panel's summary.

 

153. Consistent with Lord Justice Taylor's findings, the Panel found no evidence among the vast number of disclosed documents and many hours of video material to verify the serious allegations of exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans. There was no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium and force entry and no evidence that they stole from the dead and dying. Documents show that fans became frustrated by the inadequate response to the unfolding tragedy. The vast majority of fans on the pitch assisted in rescuing and evacuating the injured and the dead.

[alpine_saint]

I've seen some ridiculous things posted on message boards, but this is one of the most offensive and downright stupid things I have ever read on here.

 

It has nothing to do with them being Liverpool fans. It has nothing to do with them being from Liverpool. It has everything to do with them being human beings who died because of the incompetence of the authorities, and who subsequently found themselves being blamed and stigmatised in order to cover up what really happened.

 

Yes, because institutional incompetence and covering up gets given as much focus on other occasions, doesnt it ?

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Shame on the Police. They should get some straight coopers to arrest those that tarnished the name of the victims for so long.

[dinger]

Yes, because institutional incompetence and covering up gets given as much focus on other occasions, doesnt it ?

So, its nearly quarter of a century on; what do you suggest ?

 

come on out with it, its all down to money. They can hold an individual enquiry for each of the deceased, it still aint going to bring them back, sadly.

 

Arent the relatives just reliving and reliving some extremely painful memories by keeping this going ? Jesus, look forward to whats left of your lives, I say....

 

Would this still be dragging on if it had happened to the fans of any other team, fron any other city ?

 

Would the police or the Governement give or had given one iota of a flying f**k if it had been Saints fans in the Leppings Lane end ?

 

I doubt that very much. Still plenty of self-pity and emotional blackmail to come............

 

Hold on, alpine, surely you're the one here whinging self-pityingly about some perceived, possibly hypothetical injustice? Would this be dragging on if it had happened to Saints? WTF kind of question is that to be asking? A massive injustice is to some extent being righted. That is an unequivocably good thing. How can you turn that into a personal grievance? In fact, how dare you?

[Crisp]

So, its nearly quarter of a century on; what do you suggest ?

 

come on out with it, its all down to money. They can hold an individual enquiry for each of the deceased, it still aint going to bring them back, sadly.

 

Arent the relatives just reliving and reliving some extremely painful memories by keeping this going ? Jesus, look forward to whats left of your lives, I say....

 

Would this still be dragging on if it had happened to the fans of any other team, fron any other city ?

 

Would the police or the Governement give or had given one iota of a flying f**k if it had been Saints fans in the Leppings Lane end ?

 

How did you react the last time your loved ones were crushed to death at a football match, and then effectively blamed for the tragedy?

[Thedelldays]

I wonder if anyone will employ kelvin mcenzie again?

 

Probably

[Jonnyboy]

Talking of apologies, where's Dune?

 

A few others this thread should be saying sorry too.

[landford.saint]

Just a thought with absolutely no facts to base it on:-

 

*Is this current enquiry just a 'version' of the truth. In their own admission all the evidence has not been released. So what if this enquiries findings are just twisted to what the current governments wants to be released for political/PR reasons. *

 

*disclaimer:- not my opinion, but another possible viewpoint.

 

Dont

[Lord Duckhunter]

I find it unbelievable and really sad that despite The Taylor report and "new" facts coming to light since, people on here are still peddling nonsense and lies.

 

The Taylor report said that ticketless fans played no part in this and that there were no more ticketless fans than at any other similar game. The issue was that the pens in the middle were not shut off , therefore you had too many in those pens and not enough in the ones to the side.There was a programme on ITV Monday night where witness' said the year before the central pens were blocked off once they filled up, the next year this didn't happen.

Taylor also concluded that drink played no part in this, so can we stop with this nonsense once and for all and debate the facts. I cant help feeling that people's judgement is clouded by the fact the victims were scousers. It could easily been our supporters at any semi final pre Taylor.There were Southampton supporters who didn't have tickets, there were Southampton supporters who had a drink and there were Southampton supporters who rushed from the pub at the last minute.

 

Football supporters must take some of the blame, it was their behavour over the years which resulted in the pens. But the police must take 99% of the blame.There was no valid safety certificate for the stadium (hardly H&S gone mad). On the ITV programme witness' said that the year before the police staggered the fans arriving at the game, by setting up check points to check tickets and control the movement of fans along the way to the ground. The KO should have been delayed and this relayed to the supporters outside, there would have been no need to open the exit gate, which coupled with not closing off the central pens, was the heart of the whole thing.. It's all well and good saying people shouldn't push, but come on. Semi Final of the cup kicked off, most of us would want to get in ASAP.

 

We have then ended up with a horrific cover up as the establishment closed ranks and ignorant British people bought into it. Statements changed, lies leaked to the press and MP's, inquests not fulfilling their role. The saddest thing for me is not the behaviour of the establishment, I expect that from them. But the behaviour of a large number of football supporters, who still to this day buy into the lies, buy into the cover up. A nudge and a wink, "you know what Scousers are like" sort of attitude, implications that the families and wider community actually like being the victims here, that they enjoy the grief. Whereas they were just football supporters doing what you or I do every week.96 of them, over half of them under 25, went to a football match and never came home. Yet nobody has been held to account.

Edited 12 September, 2012 by Lord Duckhunter