Hillsborough

[JackFrost]

People can talk about the existence of the fences and the culture at the time all they want but the simple facts are these.

 

At the Leppings Lane end Liverpool fans were designated 1 turnstile for every 1440 fans.

 

If all of the Liverpool fans had all the hindsight in the world and formed an orderly queue it would have taken until the end of the first half for all of them to get into the stadium.

 

The crush was triggered by a monumental cock-up in the heart of an operational shambles, all carried out by a commanding officer who didn't have a clue what he was doing. All evident from the point where he started the pre-match press briefing with "It's the Liverpool vs er. . . erm. . Nottinghamshire football match".

 

Duckenfield openly claimed the fans had broken the external gate down, minutes after he himself ordered it to be opened.

 

The basic fact is that those poor fans who were crushed were crushed by other fans behind them. Always find somebody else to blame.

 

Very reasonable. The police were at fault, but it's disappointing that we should need police to control a crowd of people.

 

Looks like Duckenfield himself is even posting on here.

[Sheaf Saint]

"Former Ch Supt David Duckenfield faces 95 charges of manslaughter and five other senior figures will be prosecuted over the 1989 Hillsborough disaster."

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-40419819

[badgerx16]

"Former Ch Supt David Duckenfield faces 95 charges of manslaughter and five other senior figures will be prosecuted over the 1989 Hillsborough disaster."

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-40419819

 

Better late than never.

[Toadhall Saint]

Better late than never.

 

True but id wager none will do time

[Doctoroncall]

True but id wager none will do time

 

Duckenfield is 80 so I'm sure health issues will come into it.

 

What is staggering is that all six charged have gone on to have successful careers after the event.

[ringwood]

Not just the lives lost and those families damaged forever, its the mistakes and the cover up that is far more widespread yet really took a hold from this occasion, the altering of evidence

Its partly to blame for the erosion of any trust of the Police by a larger percentage of the population , that once they'd got away with it once the Miners were next , the Police thinking they are immune and can simply brush it all away under the carpet.

The recent fire disaster is part of the whole ' we will get away with it culture' that's within government and other areas of supposed authority , the cover up will continue sadly with those in high places who shape policy unlikely to ever reach Justice. They might be charged but how many will finally be brought to account and as said previously they've enjoyed good careers and lifestyles as a result of criminal activity

[OldNick]

Duckenfield is 80 so I'm sure health issues will come into it.

 

What is staggering is that all six charged have gone on to have successful careers after the event.

More so that he got into the position in the first place

[Whitey Grandad]

People can talk about the existence of the fences and the culture at the time all they want but the simple facts are these.

 

At the Leppings Lane end Liverpool fans were designated 1 turnstile for every 1440 fans.

 

If all of the Liverpool fans had all the hindsight in the world and formed an orderly queue it would have taken until the end of the first half for all of them to get into the stadium.

 

The crush was triggered by a monumental cock-up in the heart of an operational shambles, all carried out by a commanding officer who didn't have a clue what he was doing. All evident from the point where he started the pre-match press briefing with "It's the Liverpool vs er. . . erm. . Nottinghamshire football match".

 

Duckenfield openly claimed the fans had broken the external gate down, minutes after he himself ordered it to be opened.

 

 

 

 

 

Looks like Duckenfield himself is even posting on here.

 

It's very rude to talk about somebody when they aren't in the room.

 

...or is nobody allowed to express any opinions that differ from your own? Wht exactly is wrong with what I put in those two quotes?

 

Isn't this matter now sub judice?

[Jonnyboy]

It's very rude to talk about somebody when they aren't in the room.

 

...or is nobody allowed to express any opinions that differ from your own? Wht exactly is wrong with what I put in those two quotes?

 

Isn't this matter now sub judice?

 

You were implying it was the fault of the police.

[Sheaf Saint]

"Former Ch Supt David Duckenfield faces 95 charges of manslaughter and five other senior figures will be prosecuted over the 1989 Hillsborough disaster."

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-40419819

 

Cleared of all charges

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-50592077

[The Kraken]

Awful decision. The inquiry findings of unlawful killing stands, but apparently nobody was actually to blame.

[saint1977]

Awful decision. The inquiry findings of unlawful killing stands, but apparently nobody was actually to blame.

 

People talk about Brexit and the establishment but there’s only one real establishment and this is it in evidence. Feel so sorry for those involved, to think 2011’s verdict of unlawful killing was going to finally bring some justice. Clearly the reward dividend for violently smashing the miner’s strike between political parties, police, tabloids is still alive and kicking, unlike the poor 96 people who never came home.

[Toadhall Saint]

Awful decision. The inquiry findings of unlawful killing stands, but apparently nobody was actually to blame.

 

It’s the establishment mush - he was never getting a guilty, not in a month of Sunday’s.

[Lighthouse]

This is probably going to be an unpopular opinion but if an impartial jury has found him not guilty, after the available evidence has been presented to them, then that's good enough for me. The fact that he has been brought to trial is a form of justice in itself.

 

I've studied a lot of aviation accidents and we often refer to something called the Swiss cheese model. Basically you have slices of cheese with holes in, when the holes all line up you get an accident. There are three obvious ways to make life safer:

1. More slices

2. Fewer holes

3. Smaller holes.

 

The Police are a slice of cheese, they are there to ensure safety - The mistakes of individuals are obviously the holes.

Stadium design is another slice, it should be safe for everyone - The fences at Hillsborough were a hole

 

You get the idea. The point is that no one individual error should lead to the deaths of 96 people. Duckenfield opening a gate because he was trying his best to prevent a crush outside the ground should not lead to fatalities. That points to a systematic error that needed addressing and it has been. Justice will be served if the mistakes made in the lead up to that event are learned from and never repeated. A witch hunt isn't going to bring anyone back.

[Batman]

It’s the establishment mush - he was never getting a guilty, not in a month of Sunday’s.

 

Are you suggesting the Jury was essentially the ‘establishment’?

[The Kraken]

That would be all well and good but it wasn’t one mistake by him, there were many. Opening the gates itself wasn’t the whole problem, it was also that there were no police stationed at the point to divert fans into the side pens. At previous games there had been, so a big error by him. Also not reacting quickly to the obvious disaster ensuing, not letting ambulances in, it’s more than one error. More to the point, lying his arse off in the aftermath about how events had unfurled and entirely blaming the fans, which he admitted under oath in court.

 

That he’s got away with all that is staggering.

[Lighthouse]

That would be all well and good but it wasn’t one mistake by him, there were many. Opening the gates itself wasn’t the whole problem, it was also that there were no police stationed at the point to divert fans into the side pens. At previous games there had been, so a big error by him. Also not reacting quickly to the obvious disaster ensuing, not letting ambulances in, it’s more than one error. More to the point, lying his arse off in the aftermath about how events had unfurled and entirely blaming the fans, which he admitted under oath in court.

 

That he’s got away with all that is staggering.

 

I'm with you on that bit, mistakes are one thing but deliberately trying to cover them up and hindering the investigation is something else. As for the rest of your post, I wouldn't say it was wrong but more to the point, how could all these mistakes be made by one person, without either the full situational awareness or any kind of fail safe for him making a wrong decision.

[sadoldgit]

Whatever you think of the verdict, it is shameful that it took so long to get to this point.

[The Kraken]

I'm with you on that bit, mistakes are one thing but deliberately trying to cover them up and hindering the investigation is something else. As for the rest of your post, I wouldn't say it was wrong but more to the point, how could all these mistakes be made by one person, without either the full situational awareness or any kind of fail safe for him making a wrong decision.

I’m not suggesting it was entirely the fault of one person. There were obviously many that were complicit. There were charges brought against more than one person originally, at least one other went to court over it.

 

I just believe that Duckenfield’s actions on the day and in the aftermath deserve punishment. That he is the figurehead alone maybe not ‘fair’ but he is culpable. I very much believe that if Hillsborough had happened, say, three years ago, he would be in jail by now. The cover up is just as bad as the events of the day IMO. He has got away with everything. All of it.

 

At the end of the day, one has to respect the decision of the courts. I just don’t agree with them on this occasion though. This man must surely have been made to face some justice, and he won’t.

[sadoldgit]

He has faced justice and he was been found not guilty. Whatever we think of the verdict, justice has run its course. He has had to live with it and will have to live with it for the rest of his life though and if he has any vestige of a conscience that cannot be easy.

[The Kraken]

He has faced justice and he was been found not guilty. Whatever we think of the verdict, justice has run its course. He has had to live with it and will have to live with it for the rest of his life though and if he has any vestige of a conscience that cannot be easy.

Just a shame that 96 souls didn’t get to live with it following his actions. Yes, The criminal justice process is complete, but not everyone has to agree with it.

 

And I couldn’t care a fig about his conscience or how easy it has or hasn’t been, I’m afraid.

[Toadhall Saint]

Are you suggesting the Jury was essentially the ‘establishment’?

 

Do you think he was going to get a guilty verdict?

[Lighthouse]

Do you think he was going to get a guilty verdict?

 

I would have said no personally because I didn't believe there was any evidence (in public at least) that he had done anything criminally negligent. i.e. Did he deliberately do something knowing that it would lead to fatalities? No.

 

I'd say it was similar to knocking down and killing a child, crossing a 30mph road, whilst doing 32mph. The inquiry would say yes, he made a mistake and was partly at fault. A criminal prosecution would find he wasn't negligent or reckless in the way that someone doing 50mph whilst drunk would be.

[The Kraken]

I would have said no personally because I didn't believe there was any evidence (in public at least) that he had done anything criminally negligent. i.e. Did he deliberately do something knowing that it would lead to fatalities? No.

 

I'd say it was similar to knocking down and killing a child, crossing a 30mph road, whilst doing 32mph. The inquiry would say yes, he made a mistake and was partly at fault. A criminal prosecution would find he wasn't negligent or reckless in the way that someone doing 50mph whilst drunk would be.

Perhaps more accurate, to use that analogy with Duckenfield, is that he then drove off after the incident and claimed someone else was driving.

[hypochondriac]

He has faced justice and he was been found not guilty. Whatever we think of the verdict, justice has run its course. He has had to live with it and will have to live with it for the rest of his life though and if he has any vestige of a conscience that cannot be easy.

Justice has run its course. Like Ched Evans and Boycott?

[hypochondriac]

Perhaps more accurate, to use that analogy with Duckenfield, is that he then drove off after the incident and claimed someone else was driving.

Tbf though covering up a crime is a slightly different case.

[sadoldgit]

Justice has run its course. Like Ched Evans and Boycott?

 

Somehow I just knew you would show up with a crass remark. People lost their lives. Show some decency for once.

[hypochondriac]

Somehow I just knew you would show up with a crass remark. People lost their lives. Show some decency for once.

Just pointing out the hypocrisy. Odd that in this case you feel justice has run its course yet in others you considered justice no to be as infallible. I made no comment on Hillsborough directly. No winners from the case and thoughts with the families as always.

[sadoldgit]

Just pointing out the hypocrisy. Odd that in this case you feel justice has run its course yet in others you considered justice no to be as infallible. I made no comment on Hillsborough directly. No winners from the case and thoughts with the families as always.

 

Are you serious? What hypocrisy? Justice ran its course in every case and whether you, I or anybody else agrees with the verdict or not is not the issue. You didn’t have to mention Hillsborough as you are on the Hillsborough thread. This is not the place to score points. You really are a deeply unpleasant human being.

[Victor]

Duckenfield was guilty of ignoring that just 4 years earlier a sudden rush on a football terrace lead to a crush and the deaths of 39 fans. He should have learnt the lesson and realised earlier what was happening In the previous case the people directly responsible were identified and 14 were convicted of manslaughter as a result. Yes, Liverpool fans (although on the official LFC website when the annual token mention of it is made they sickeningly say it was 'events' caused he deaths)

 

Funny old world..

[OldNick]

This disaster could easily have happened a few yearsearlier when Saints visited in the FA cup, for some resonwe took thousands up andthat end was a crush. It was pretty lucky somethig similar did not happen