Hillsborough

[Thedelldays]

Well. Maybe today the chapter will close.

[Frank's cousin]

Well. Maybe today the chapter will close.

 

Hopefully... the biggest and saddest aspect was always that those stuck at the front of those cages, that died, were truely innocent - wrong place, wrong time... its clear the failure of the police to control the crowd and the errors they made with the gates and in flow of fans was the cause and yes as the vicims families have always said, the police do need to be accountable for that... but as controvercial as it may seem, will the fans that charged in, that decided not top be patient and wait for a calmer entry even if it meant missing 15 mins of the match also take some of the responsibilty? - The crowd should have been controlled outside the ground, tickets checked and then let in an orderly fashion... but ultimately, we should not ignore the questiuons that crowd control should really not be necessary to that extent at what is a sporting occasion?

[badgerx16]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/exclusive-hillsborough--police-did-doctor-evidence-in-bid-to-avoid-blame-8126233.html

 

"The Independent has obtained four previously unpublished witness statements written by police constables, who were all on duty at the Leppings Lane end on the disastrous day of Liverpool's FA Cup semi-final with Nottingham Forest in 1989. They show how the documents, originally prepared for an internal inquiry, were altered prior to Lord Taylor's official inquiry later that year to ensure that South Yorkshire Police emerged from the tragedy in a significantly more positive light."

[Saint Lindford]

Totally agree Frank. The Police need to be accountable but SO do the fans. We have all been there, 5 mins before kick off leave the pub get to the ground and push though turnstiles getting impatient as we might miss the kick off. Well if we have left the pub 15 mins before kick off we would have been in the ground before kick off. Then there is the issue about the fans who got in without tickets, will they be accountable as well.

[hypochondriac]

I see they are having a vigil and a two minute silence. The people of Liverpool will be so pleased. Fair enough if people want to see these papers, but it doesn't bring anyone back, as a relative says it will just open old wounds. It's largely pointless.

[Whitey Grandad]

Yes Frank, those who were at the back pushing and shoving must accept their share of culpability.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Totally agree Frank. The Police need to be accountable but SO do the fans. We have all been there, 5 mins before kick off leave the pub get to the ground and push though turnstiles getting impatient as we might miss the kick off. Well if we have left the pub 15 mins before kick off we would have been in the ground before kick off. Then there is the issue about the fans who got in without tickets, will they be accountable as well.

 

There has never been any evidence of significant numbers of fans trying to get in without tickets. Plenty of tickets were still on sale on the evening before the game. Jesus, the uninformed crap still out beggars belief.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

I see they are having a vigil and a two minute silence. The people of Liverpool will be so pleased. Fair enough if people want to see these papers, but it doesn't bring anyone back, as a relative says it will just open old wounds. It's largely pointless.

 

So if one of your loved ones was killed you wouldn't want a proper inquiry to determined what happened?

[Doctoroncall]

I see they are having a vigil and a two minute silence. The people of Liverpool will be so pleased. Fair enough if people want to see these papers, but it doesn't bring anyone back, as a relative says it will just open old wounds. It's largely pointless.

 

Many people haven't been able to rest / move on from what was published based on mis-information, cover up and a bizarre cut-off time at the inquest. Hopefully full disclosure will allow those involved (including the police) to progress and close out this sad chapter of their lives. A shame it's taken so long in a democratic country.

[Sheaf Saint]

I am working in Liverpool today. Will be interesting to hear the thoughts of the customers I am seeing.

 

I agree with Frank. Yes, the police made a monumental cock-up, but you also have to question why they were put in the position where they had to make such a decision in the first place. If they hadn't opened the gate there would have been a crush outside - damned if they did, damned if they didn't. I wasn't living in Sheffield at the time, but I know people who were and report seeing large amounts of Liverpool fans leaving the pubs only about 5 minutes before kick-off. The FA had issued warnings not to travel without tickets but clearly there were a number who ignored this and tried to barge their way in once the gates had been opened. They must also take their share of culpability.

 

I guess it must have seemed quite easy for the police to try and shift the blame onto the fans completely. With Heysel still fresh in the memory, the Liverpool fans' reputation preceded them in that era. But the South Yorkshire police also had a terrible reputation following the events at Orgreave during the miners strike in '84, where they again falsified evidence and went to great lengths to cover up their own shortcomings.

 

It was a terrible tragedy that will haunt the survivors and the victims' families for the rest of their lives no doubt, and I can totally understand why people still feel the need for answers 23 years later. I guess the full truth will never come out because I don't think you can pinpoint one single action that was the overall cause of the deaths - it was a culmination of numerous events and therefore impossible to pin the blame on one single person or organisation (as we are so keen on doing in the western world).

[Frank's cousin]

There has never been any evidence of significant numbers of fans trying to get in without tickets. Plenty of tickets were still on sale on the evening before the game. Jesus, the uninformed crap still out beggars belief.

 

This does not explain how that stand was overcrowed beyond the official capacity - and we were talking about controlled entry and patience of the crowd, who should have recognised that entry was going to be slow with so many turning up at once... This was not unique to Liverpool fans - at the time, the whole atmosphere around football crowds was one of suspicion and fear of confrontation... which ill have contributed to panic and wrong decsion making.

 

Victims families, quite rightly deseerve the TRUTH, to understand the full failings of the sysytem etc that caused this tragedy. But although it may categorically conclude that teh police were the cause, you still have to ask yourself a simple question... why and how did it become necessary/a crowd 'problem' in the first place , when we are talking about fans arriving at a sporting venue to see football... not just on that tragic day but at every game? Because football had become synonomous with bad crowd behaviour and thsoe fans were simply not prepared to wait in line and miss part of the game - ask yourself what you do... you arrive at your turnstile ad its very busy? to you hang back and wait, or do you join teh mass ranks and push etc? and then expect the police and stewards to sort it out?

 

This was a tragedy and one caused by the police action on the day. No one is disputiung that. BUT ultimately if anything is to be learned we have to be prepared to acknowledge that fan behaviour , not just on that day, but during that whole sad pathetic era, created an atmosphere and environment in which a police prescence, 'crowd control' etc was necessary in the first place and that is something too many fans still feel uncomfortable in acknowledging... it is a game we pay to watch, yet some still feel that the 'tribalism' (only really an issue form the 70s onwards so hardly part of football 'tradition') somehow excuses football fans from normal civilized beehaviour.

 

The fact reamins that this tragedy would not have happened if the police were not needed or 'control' were not needed in the first place.

[View From The Top]

Totally agree Frank. The Police need to be accountable but SO do the fans. We have all been there, 5 mins before kick off leave the pub get to the ground and push though turnstiles getting impatient as we might miss the kick off. Well if we have left the pub 15 mins before kick off we would have been in the ground before kick off. Then there is the issue about the fans who got in without tickets, will they be accountable as well.

 

What a load of cr@p. There has never been any evidence of that. It was a slur by South Yorks police, published in The Sun, to deflect from their incompetence.

 

Even the Taylor Report said it was boll.ocks.

[hypochondriac]

So if one of your loved ones was killed you wouldn't want a proper inquiry to determined what happened?

 

A relative said themselves that whilst they welcome this release, on a personal level they feel it is opening old wounds. Not my words.

[badgerx16]

This does not explain how that stand was overcrowed beyond the official capacity -

 

Lack of stewards, inadequate or non-existent signs, no police radios allowing those in control to understand what was happening, it's all in the Taylor Report, along with a note of a recommendation that the pen capacity actually be reduced because the crush barriers were not up to standard. An analysis by the H&SE worked out that there were fewer people in that end than claimed, it was just that they all ended up being herded into the same place.

[Frank's cousin]

Lack of stewards, inadequate or non-existent signs, no police radios allowing those in control to understand what was happening, it's all in the Taylor Report, along with a note of a recommendation that the pen capacity actually be reduced because the crush barriers were not up to standard. An analysis by the H&SE worked out that there were fewer people in that end than claimed, it was just that they all ended up being herded into the same place.

 

...fair enough... but this does not answer why there was ever a need to 'herd' fans or 'control' crowds in the first place? IMHO, all fans of that era, who were involved in incidents that created that atmosphere need to look at themselves as well, and as difficult as it may be, acknowledge that their actions contributed to the shift from a simple spectator sport, to one in which the police were necessary beyond watching out crime...

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

This does not explain how that stand was overcrowed beyond the official capacity

 

It wasn't. The terrace was divided into pens and entry to each pen was only possible from behind the stand i.e. you could not move laterally into a different pen once you were on the terrace. The side pens were well under capacity. The police didn't control access to ticket barriers and panicked, opening the exits which allowed thousands of fans to enter the ground much more quickly. These fans took the logical decision to take the main entrance to the Central terrace and there were no Police to direct them to the pens which had plenty of space.

 

The idea that there were hundreds or ticketless fans is a convenient myth for the Police.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

...fair enough... but this does not answer why there was ever a need to 'herd' fans or 'control' crowds in the first place? IMHO' date=' all fans of that era, who were involved in incidents that created that atmosphere need to look at themselves as well, and as difficult as it may be, acknowledge that their actions contributed to the shift from a simple spectator sport, to one in which the police were necessary beyond watching out crime...[/quote']

 

That assumes that the Police should be completely reactive and that fans dictate Police response. On the ITV documentary the other night a junior police office at the time made the point that at the Cup semi-final the previous year an experienced Police team had actively managed the crowd to filter them effectively so access to the ground was safe and controlled. In the year of the disaster the leadership was inexperienced and came to police a potential riot rather than actively managed them.

 

Wherever you got large flows of people in confined spaces you need effective control and management to avoid crushes. Which is why busy Tube stations will have Guards temporarily shutting entrances to limit the numbers of people in the concourse and on platforms. If London Underground operated in the same unprofessional manner as South Yorks police that day then crushes and accidents would occur fairly frequently - you wouldn't blame passangers for that would you?

[corky morris]

Absolutely right Dave. Dont forget the FA as well. Why they put the fans in the ends they did is still a very serious question.

 

What a load of cr@p. There has never been any evidence of that. It was a slur by South Yorks police, published in The Sun, to deflect from their incompetence.

 

Even the Taylor Report said it was boll.ocks.

[alpine_saint]

Well. Maybe today the chapter will close.

 

I doubt that very much. Still plenty of self-pity and emotional blackmail to come............

[Frank's cousin]

It wasn't. The terrace was divided into pens and entry to each pen was only possible from behind the stand i.e. you could not move laterally into a different pen once you were on the terrace. The side pens were well under capacity. The police didn't control access to ticket barriers and panicked, opening the exits which allowed thousands of fans to enter the ground much more quickly. These fans took the logical decision to take the main entrance to the Central terrace and there were no Police to direct them to the pens which had plenty of space.

 

The idea that there were hundreds or ticketless fans is a convenient myth for the Police.

 

... but why does this disolve any individual responsibilty or common sense amongst the fans? Police stupity yes, police incompetence, yes.. but why does any situation like this always look to find a single person or group to blame, when as individuals we have have responsibilty for behaving appropriately in these situations? If fans take a 'logical' decision, you dont push, run when there is a huge crowd of people on stairs/terraces?

 

Yes, soem will argue that this is a classic case of crowd behaviour and thats is why you need police and stewards to direct and control, and I am sure someone can explain it away as crowd psychology etc, but to often individuals make teh wrong choices in these situations and dont take responsibilty for their own actions.

[View From The Top]

Absolutely right Dave. Dont forget the FA as well. Why they put the fans in the ends they did is still a very serious question.

 

Good point. They gave the small Leppings Lane end to Liverpool & the huge Kop end to Forest.

 

I remember a game we were at up there when the police horses pushed us up against the wall in the crush getting towards the turn styles.

[Frank's cousin]

That assumes that the Police should be completely reactive and that fans dictate Police response. On the ITV documentary the other night a junior police office at the time made the point that at the Cup semi-final the previous year an experienced Police team had actively managed the crowd to filter them effectively so access to the ground was safe and controlled. In the year of the disaster the leadership was inexperienced and came to police a potential riot rather than actively managed them.

 

Wherever you got large flows of people in confined spaces you need effective control and management to avoid crushes. Which is why busy Tube stations will have Guards temporarily shutting entrances to limit the numbers of people in the concourse and on platforms. If London Underground operated in the same unprofessional manner as South Yorks police that day then crushes and accidents would occur fairly frequently - you wouldn't blame passangers for that would you?

 

To some extent I agree and on a purely practical measure, you make a vaild point, but why does common sense go out the window? Why do turnstiles open 90 minutes before kick off? because it is simple logic that you cant get 1000s of folk into a ground in a controlled fashion in 5 minutes - If you want to turn up 15 mins before the game, then you would expect there to be a queque and a crowd, so why not wait patiently? Its the expectation that someone else is responsible all the time that fecks me off.

[View From The Top]

... but why does this disolve any individual responsibilty or common sense amongst the fans? Police stupity yes, police incompetence, yes.. but why does any situation like this always look to find a single person or group to blame, when as individuals we have have responsibilty for behaving appropriately in these situations? If fans take a 'logical' decision, you dont push, run when there is a huge crowd of people on stairs/terraces?

 

Yes, soem will argue that this is a classic case of crowd behaviour and thats is why you need police and stewards to direct and control, and I am sure someone can explain it away as crowd psychology etc, but to often individuals make teh wrong choices in these situations and dont take responsibilty for their own actions.

 

Let's make this simple. The officer in command lost control, opened the gates that led to the central pens. The side pens were empty.

 

I find it reprehensible that anyone can even imply that it was somehow the fault of the fans, especially if they'd been to Hillsborough in the 80s and ever tried getting into the Leppings Lane end.

[JackFrost]

This does not explain how that stand was overcrowed beyond the official capacity - and we were talking about controlled entry and patience of the crowd' date=' who should have recognised that entry was going to be slow with so many turning up at once... This was not unique to Liverpool fans - at the time, the whole atmosphere around football crowds was one of suspicion and fear of confrontation... which ill have contributed to panic and wrong decsion making. [/quote']

 

There was an accident on a motorway which led to many fans being delayed and turning up late. And then hearing the whistle go to kick off the match, one of the biggest matches of their season so far would naturally lead to a crowd surge out of frustration. Also those fans had no idea that the pens inside were already crammed, and even before they went in were 600 or so people over the maximum capacity due to the stadium's lax safety procedures. Also there only one narrow/dark tunnel leading to the pens so they couldn't be seen from the outside.

 

But you are right, we're talking the late 80s here, only 2-3 years after football hooliganism was at its worst in this country so the reaction would be entirely different to now.

 

Victims families, quite rightly deseerve the TRUTH, to understand the full failings of the sysytem etc that caused this tragedy. But although it may categorically conclude that teh police were the cause, you still have to ask yourself a simple question... why and how did it become necessary/a crowd 'problem' in the first place , when we are talking about fans arriving at a sporting venue to see football... not just on that tragic day but at every game? Because football had become synonomous with bad crowd behaviour and thsoe fans were simply not prepared to wait in line and miss part of the game - ask yourself what you do... you arrive at your turnstile ad its very busy? to you hang back and wait, or do you join teh mass ranks and push etc? and then expect the police and stewards to sort it out?

 

This was a tragedy and one caused by the police action on the day. No one is disputiung that. BUT ultimately if anything is to be learned we have to be prepared to acknowledge that fan behaviour , not just on that day, but during that whole sad pathetic era, created an atmosphere and environment in which a police prescence, 'crowd control' etc was necessary in the first place and that is something too many fans still feel uncomfortable in acknowledging... it is a game we pay to watch, yet some still feel that the 'tribalism' (only really an issue form the 70s onwards so hardly part of football 'tradition') somehow excuses football fans from normal civilized beehaviour.

 

You are right but there are other factors. The stadium (like many others back then) was hopelessly outdated even for those times and could in no way cope with crowd sizes of FA cup SF crowds in a safe manner. Also 'Health and safety' as we know it barely existed back then, it was just starting to come in but you still get away with largely ignoring it and continue to run whatever you were running. For instance the safety barriers didn't even meet the safety standards back then, yet they were still holding FA Cup semi finals at the stadium. That's how lax it was back then.

 

The fact reamins that this tragedy would not have happened if the police were not needed or 'control' were not needed in the first place.

 

But there were numerous failures to do even basic crowd control procedures on the day by the police. The most notable one being the absence of any stewards/policemen by the entrance of pens 3 or 4 to direct the onrushing fans away from the full pens. Back then this was BASIC procedure. Even if the crowd had all arrived on time and walked calmly into the stadium there would have been problems. Nowhere near the deaths/injuries that occurred but at the end of the days thousands of fans were left to their own devices all trying to get to the same place, completely unsupervised in a barrier-restricted area. Regardless of how well behaved the fans were/police attitudes it was a recipe for disaster.

 

Hillsborough was caused by a operational cock up of monumental proportions by the police, which quickly developed into a complete shambles. Exacerbated in those times with outdated stadiums and ever-increasing football crowds, where some of the stadiums had become logistical death-traps.

 

Let's not forget the 56 people who died at the Valley Parade fire in '85 was caused by one person dropping a lit cigarette.

[JackFrost]

It wasn't. The terrace was divided into pens and entry to each pen was only possible from behind the stand i.e. you could not move laterally into a different pen once you were on the terrace. The side pens were well under capacity. The police didn't control access to ticket barriers and panicked, opening the exits which allowed thousands of fans to enter the ground much more quickly. These fans took the logical decision to take the main entrance to the Central terrace and there were no Police to direct them to the pens which had plenty of space.

 

The idea that there were hundreds or ticketless fans is a convenient myth for the Police.

 

Spot on

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

To some extent I agree and on a purely practical measure' date=' you make a vaild point, but why does common sense go out the window? Why do turnstiles open 90 minutes before kick off? because it is simple logic that you cant get 1000s of folk into a ground in a controlled fashion in 5 minutes - If you want to turn up 15 mins before the game, then you would expect there to be a queque and a crowd, so why not wait patiently? Its the expectation that someone else is responsible all the time that fecks me off.[/quote']

 

Whatever the event - a concert, a football match etc - you will always get people turning up at different times. I've turned up late to matches at SMS, sometime because of traffic, sometime because I've tried to squeeze in an extra pint. On some occasions that has meant having to wait in a queue to get in after the match has kicked off. Access to SMS is proactively managed, if you turn up late you expect to wait but there are no dramas and it is safe. If you go to a football match you should expect that the paid professionals promote a safe environment for you to move into. It is their f'ing job and therefor their responsibility.

[belgrave]

I doubt that very much. Still plenty of self-pity and emotional blackmail to come............

 

From the police ?

[hypochondriac]

From the police ?

 

Pretty sure he means the scousers.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

... but why does this disolve any individual responsibilty or common sense amongst the fans? Police stupity yes, police incompetence, yes.. but why does any situation like this always look to find a single person or group to blame, when as individuals we have have responsibilty for behaving appropriately in these situations? If fans take a 'logical' decision, you dont push, run when there is a huge crowd of people on stairs/terraces?

 

Yes, soem will argue that this is a classic case of crowd behaviour and thats is why you need police and stewards to direct and control, and I am sure someone can explain it away as crowd psychology etc, but to often individuals make teh wrong choices in these situations and dont take responsibilty for their own actions.

 

But it is perfectly possible to act logically and rationally as an individual within a group but for the group itself to act irrationally. If the herd starts to stampede then each cow would be stupid not to join in but the stampede itself might be stupid.

 

Why should any Liverpool fan expect that they were about to contribute to a fatal crush? You're waiting to get though the turnstiles. It's taking ages and you start to worry that you'll miss the match. there are plenty in front and plenty behind. Suddenly the exist opens and everyone realises that there's a much quicker way into the ground. You get through the exit and see the main entrance into the stand and perhaps even get a glimpse of the match underway. everyone else if moving to the same point and now there are even more people behind you. Once you realise that there are too many people in front you consider moving to the side but now no one can budge. At what point does that person become eligible for blame?

[belgrave]

But it is perfectly possible to act logically and rationally as an individual within a group but for the group itself to act irrationally. If the herd starts to stampede then each cow would be stupid not to join in but the stampede itself might be stupid.

 

Why should any Liverpool fan expect that they were about to contribute to a fatal crush? You're waiting to get though the turnstiles. It's taking ages and you start to worry that you'll miss the match. there are plenty in front and plenty behind. Suddenly the exist opens and everyone realises that there's a much quicker way into the ground. You get through the exit and see the main entrance into the stand and perhaps even get a glimpse of the match underway. everyone else if moving to the same point and now there are even more people behind you. Once you realise that there are too many people in front you consider moving to the side but now no one can budge. At what point does that person become eligible for blame?

 

Spot on. You hit the nail on the head with the tube station analogy. Crowds behave like crowds, which is why you need some kind of control process.

 

Majority of misinformation around this tragedy stems from the initial blame shift or cover up. The enquiry outputs won't change that, just a shame a proper enquiry didn't happen immediately, when it may have led to something constructive.

[Frank's cousin]

Let's make this simple. The officer in command lost control, opened the gates that led to the central pens. The side pens were empty.

 

I find it reprehensible that anyone can even imply that it was somehow the fault of the fans, especially if they'd been to Hillsborough in the 80s and ever tried getting into the Leppings Lane end.

 

Well we will have to agree to differ, however 'reprehensible' you find it. I find it strange and perhaps a little sad that fans cant look at this objectively and acknowledge that part of the issue as a direct result of the need to 'control' a crowd in the first place. We are talking about football, a game, a sport - not some angry protest or revolutionary mob... but fans of a game. Yet a generation of 'fans' created an environment of fear, mistrust and suspision that meant police were necessary in the first place, and through naiviety and fear of what might happen, made errors of judgement that tradgic and fatal consequences. I am not suggesting that Liverpool fans were any different to anyone else on that day, but that fans collectively need to acknowledge that we are not blameless in creating that environment... on even simpler terms, had there been no need for cages, 'pens' this would not have happened - yet they existed for the reason I allude to above. In the 1920s, when far to many entered Wembley for a cup final with the famours white horse on the pitch, the fans simply spilled onto the pitch... and yet as a collective fans were responsible for the behaviour in the 70s that meant we were herded like animals - because ultimately some behaved like them.

 

Its this element I have an issue with. All the reasons for the tragedy on the day are probably now accepted and the final publication of Goivcernment minutes will hopefully mean that everything is in the public domain once and for all - but we simply must not ignore the impact of fan behaviour (in general, not specifically Liverpool fans on that day) at that time on creating an environment where such actions and mistakes would have such tragic consequences - and its that what I mean about our personal responsibilty, aside from any individual decisons on the day.

[Frank's cousin]

Spot on. You hit the nail on the head with the tube station analogy. Crowds behave like crowds, which is why you need some kind of control process.

 

Majority of misinformation around this tragedy stems from the initial blame shift or cover up. The enquiry outputs won't change that, just a shame a proper enquiry didn't happen immediately, when it may have led to something constructive.

 

Sorry but the tube analogy fails to differentiate between the behaviour of everyday commuters, and that of football fans whose behaviour had led to the creation the 'pens' and thus the potential for a crush in the first place - Commuters behaviour did not mean the need for the track and fast trains....that was a necessary danger, but fans actions did mean cages, pens etc... which until the early 70s had been unnecessary.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

FC - any crowd needs to be controlled whether they are aggressive or not. There have been deaths from crushes at festivals for example. The issue if badly behaved fans is a bit of a red herring - there were plenty of big matches in those days when no one died in a crush - and fans weren't behaving badly on that day in particular.

 

You're also ignoring how the police response to growing crowd violence actually made things worse - if you treat people like animals then it is hardly surprising if they act like animals.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Sorry but the tube analogy fails to differentiate between the behaviour of everyday commuters' date=' and that of football fans whose behaviour had led to the creation the 'pens' and thus the potential for a crush in the first place - Commuters behaviour did not mean the need for the track and fast trains....that was a necessary danger, but fans actions did mean cages, pens etc... which until the early 70s had been unnecessary.[/quote']

 

The point is that all crowds need to be actively managed or unpleasant consequence will ensue - whether they are football fans or commuters in a rush. Anyone who has been in Victoria tube or Kings Cross during morning rush hour will know that negligant management of that space could well lead to huge problems.

 

In fact, in many ways commuters at rush hour in a delay will probably behave in similar ways to football fans - impatient to get a move on, lack of understanding for the delay etc

[Frank's cousin]

The point is that all crowds need to be actively managed or unpleasant consequence will ensue - whether they are football fans or commuters in a rush. Anyone who has been in Victoria tube or Kings Cross during morning rush hour will know that negligant management of that space could well lead to huge problems.

 

I dont disagree with that, but you are missing the point here. Whatever happened, however they behaved, whoever made the mistakes, whosever fault it is etc - we can probably eventually find all the answers etc on a purely practical point.... BUT the truth is that had tehose pens not existed, no cages, no fencing, there woudl probably have been injuries but not fatalities - They were only possible because of the 'peeceived need' for the pens, which were put in place because of fan behaviour at the time. All I am suggesting is that as fans we need to take responsibilty for that as it is a contributing factor.

[Wurzel]

It wasn't. The terrace was divided into pens and entry to each pen was only possible from behind the stand i.e. you could not move laterally into a different pen once you were on the terrace. The side pens were well under capacity. The police didn't control access to ticket barriers and panicked, opening the exits which allowed thousands of fans to enter the ground much more quickly. These fans took the logical decision to take the main entrance to the Central terrace and there were no Police to direct them to the pens which had plenty of space.

 

The idea that there were hundreds or ticketless fans is a convenient myth for the Police.

 

Exactly this.

 

I went there years before (around 85ish?) with Saints. Once through turnstiles the only apparent way to go was through a tunnel that - unbeknown until you went through it - took you straight into the central "pen" behind the goal. Even in that game once we got through the tunnel the pen was packed and with nowhere else to go, but luckily with no large build up behind us we were able to turn round and go back through the tunnel. Once we looked around found other steps that led to a corner section which was less than half full, as was the opposite corner. No direction signs, no stewards suggesting we'd be better off heading for the corners, just an unknown ground where we had to find out for ourselves. Liverpool probably had 3 or 4 times the number we had in that end, with probably the same confusion magnified.

[The Kraken]

I doubt that very much. Still plenty of self-pity and emotional blackmail to come............

 

Wow. I find that attitude, from a parent, staggering really.

 

The release of information has been orchestrated by the families; lets not ever get away from that. And they want access to the documented answers; in some cases which will be "how and when did my child die". Other information will come out which will engender a blame culture, but the families request for information is at the heart of everything.

 

The coroner at the time stated that all 94 who died on the day had either died before 3.15pm, or had received such injuries by then that they would have died anyway. As such, no investigation to what happened after 3.15 was allowed, and no documents released. This despite various reports that people were still being resucitated well after that 3.15pm cutoff, and that all ambulances were being refused entry to the stricken fans by police.

 

There was also a massive cover-up by the police; an absolutely enormous travesty of justice. This absolutely needs to be addressed; never mind lessons learnt etc, this was a national and international cover-up that went all the way to Downing Street, and that should have repercussions.

 

You may not have any empathy with scousers, and admittedly they often don't help themselves, but I'd have thought you'd have had some empathy with parents who've lost their children and have been lied to for over 20 years about the exact circumstances.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Anyone offering any opinion should read this first:

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/hillsborough-documents-released-brian-reade-1318730

[The Kraken]

I see they are having a vigil and a two minute silence. The people of Liverpool will be so pleased. Fair enough if people want to see these papers, but it doesn't bring anyone back, as a relative says it will just open old wounds. It's largely pointless.

 

Its not largely pointless at all. It's the relatives' thirst for actual fact and information that has led to this. Sources to the Home Office are already stating that the news that comes out will be "monumental". The fact the information is coming out should be thoroughly applauded. That David Cameron is being tipped to make an apology (at 12.30) suggests this goes all the way to Number 10.

[aintforever]

Anyone offering any opinion should read this first:

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/hillsborough-documents-released-brian-reade-1318730

 

Doesn't go into much detail about what was happening outside to cause the crush which led to the Police's decision.

 

From what I saw on TV and my experience of going to football I think the fans who pushed outside should shoulder some of the blame. We've all been in similar situations, some people behave and wait patiently, some people are assholes, particularly when drunk.

 

The Police are ultimately responsible though because football crowds in the 80's were unruly and drunk.

[GenevaSaint]

Anyone offering any opinion should read this first:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/hillsborough-documents-released-brian-reade-1318730

 

An excellent read.

 

The one thing that stands out for me is the lack of communication, I assume between the police and the ref that day. Why not delay the game by 15 minutes instead of making the decision to open the gates. Maybe when the documents will give an answer here. The stadium wasn't fit for purpose (same as Heysel). The commander wasn't that experienced. A whole host of issues came together on the day to cause the mayhem and deaths of the 96 unfortunate fans. Out of every incident lessons are learned, it's easy to look back on the event in hindsight and see issues, I'm sure this is the case for all of us in our lives as somepoint. Football has moved on and heeded the warning from this, fences going, all seater stadia, christ even civilized policing on occasion.

 

The worst piece of all of this, was the cover up, the slurs, police altering documents, there's no accountability for their lies. Amazing how many plod go out on sick leave or retire oin medical grounds. Disgusting. And Kelvin McKenzie, the mouth piece of the government of the day, hang your head in shame. scum.

[Frank's cousin]

Anyone offering any opinion should read this first:

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/hillsborough-documents-released-brian-reade-1318730

 

Is indeed a good read and no one is saying that the those who died were in anyway to blame, nor that it was caused by Hooligans etc. But the problem as I see it is that fans do need to think about why the conditions existed for such a tragedy to happen... the culture, environment and atmosphere were a result of the way fans had behaved, and although it can be argued that treating fans as annimals was not the solution, the cages etc were there as a consequence of fan behaviour. The druive for the truth is vital - the need for disclosure and removeal of the slurs on peoples names following made up reporting needs to be resolved.... but when it comes to blame, surely there is a need to accept that fans did play a part.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Doesn't go into much detail about what was happening outside to cause the crush which led to the Police's decision.

 

From what I saw on TV and my experience of going to football I think the fans who pushed outside should shoulder some of the blame. We've all been in similar situations, some people behave and wait patiently, some people are assholes, particularly when drunk.

 

The Police are ultimately responsible though because football crowds in the 80's were unruly and drunk.

 

Read it again. The stands assigned to Liverpool had just over 20 turnstiles, roughly one per 1000 fans. Many of which kept getting stuck - this was a gorund remember that didn't have a valid safety certificate. The Kop used by Forest fans in comparison had 60 turnstiles.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Is indeed a good read and no one is saying that the those who died were in anyway to blame' date=' nor that it was caused by Hooligans etc. But the problem as I see it is that fans do need to think about why the conditions existed for such a tragedy to happen... the culture, environment and atmosphere were a result of the way fans had behaved, and although it can be argued that treating fans as annimals was not the solution, the cages etc were there as a consequence of fan behaviour. The druive for the truth is vital - the need for disclosure and removeal of the slurs on peoples names following made up reporting needs to be resolved.... but when it comes to blame, surely there is a need to accept that fans did play a part.[/quote']

 

I don't think anyone thinks that fan behaviour or culture was healthy in the 70s and 80s. That said it played no specific part in the actual event in question and was the subject of a disgusting proganda campaign waged by the Police and others. Any hint of blame of fans needs to be robustly defended.

[Whitey Grandad]

The basic truth is that those poor innocents were crushed by other fans. Those at the back must have been pushing and shoving despite the resistance from those in front of them.

[Jonnyboy]

"The pigs were responsible" David Cameron.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

The basic truth is that those poor innocents were crushed by other fans. Those at the back must have been pushing and shoving despite the resistance from those in front of them.

 

all a bit simple. do some reading if doesn't hurt your brain too much.

[aintforever]

Read it again. The stands assigned to Liverpool had just over 20 turnstiles, roughly one per 1000 fans. Many of which kept getting stuck - this was a gorund remember that didn't have a valid safety certificate. The Kop used by Forest fans in comparison had 60 turnstiles.

 

I agree that there were many factors more to blame, I just think the way football fans were during the 80's contributed. There was a crush outside not an orderly queue, why was that?

[pap]

Excellent statement from the PM. Profoundly sorry for the double injustice that the families have endured. Praised the community that backed them all the way. Very moving, and if I'm honest, never thought I'd see the day, let alone a Conservative Prime Minister handling the issue so sensitively, eloquently and unambiguously.

Edited 12 September, 2012 by pap

[pap]

The basic truth is that those poor innocents were crushed by other fans. Those at the back must have been pushing and shoving despite the resistance from those in front of them.

 

You really pick your moments, Whitey G.