Be honest, should the £12m paid for GR been spent elsewhere?

[Gambol2K9]

Impossible question to answer when we've not seen him play for us yet. This thread might be more relevant six months down the line.

[Minty]

It's an impossible question because the money spent on GR has nothing to do with potential defensive signings. The question makes an assumption that that money would've been spent elsewhere if it weren't spent on him, which we don't know and Adkins' interviews suggest otherwise IMO, with him giving clear hints that other defensive targets were identified but not signed for some reason.

 

I for one am glad we signed Ramirez, based on what I've heard and seen, and think any signing in any position that potentially improves the squad is money well spent.

[scotty]

It's an impossible question because the money spent on GR has nothing to do with potential defensive signings. The question makes an assumption that that money would've been spent elsewhere if it weren't spent on him, which we don't know and Adkins' interviews suggest otherwise IMO, with him giving clear hints that other defensive targets were identified but not signed for some reason.

 

I for one am glad we signed Ramirez, based on what I've heard and seen, and think any signing in any position that potentially improves the squad is money well spent.

 

This.

 

How could anybody on here know that the Ramirez fee emptied the spending pot? Was anyone expecting us to sign him at all, for that sort of money and those sort of wages? Its entirely possible that there were defensive targets lined up as well as Yoshido, and that there was money available to buy them if they could be persuaded to join us. Playing for SFC isn't actually compulsory, as the Buttner no-deal showed. Maybe the defensive targets just didn't fancy signing here for whatever reason. Clyne is a decent signing, Yoshido I know nothing about but I assume the management team rate him, its not as if we haven't strengthened defence at all.

[Frank's cousin]

Delgado was going to be huge for us, put us on a whole new level. I can recall all the excitement, the claims we were to become a top club.

 

In leaving the Championship Saints had the best strike force, yet it's these players we've discarded, brought in new strikers. Our defence let us down for a big part of last season, yet also Adkins choice of players and substitutions. Maybe Ramirez is going to be what Van Persie was for United yesterday and the defence will get by. Sadly I don't believe this will be the case and failing to get hold of a first rate goalie and central defenders is going to be our undoing. A couple of injuries and we shall relive the Michael Svensson scenario but worse.

 

ART - insightful and intelligent as always if a little melancholy in tone - did not really want to be reminded of the Michael Svensson issue again...

 

I would say that that we do see time an again the 'lesser' prem sides surviving on organisation - many have defensive problems and I would argue no better defenders that we have at our disposal. The difference is they are better organised and often manage to concentrate for the 94 minutes, not 85...

 

To stay up we have to beat those bottom 6-or 8 sides - sides that will undoubtedly will committ men behind the ball when we have it and as we saw against wigan and at times last season, when faced against thats style, we often struggled to break these sides down - its why I believe we went for more creativity - whereas against the tops sides we would need 20mil plus defensive talent to hold out regularly against the 50mil+ strike forces we will face - so I wont be too down on the transfer policy/success at this stage.

[Smirking_Saint]

The more I have been thinking about it the more I think this is a coaching issue, Fonte and Fox were poor defensively but surely with better defensive organisation it would have been far better.

 

The way I saw it yesterday the zonal marking didnt work, we didnt really crumble in open play, we defended the box pretty well but failed at set pieces, I cant remember the goals against city but if memory serves at least the 3rd was indirectly from a corner.

 

The zonal marking isnt working as we have coached it so far, but hope springs from the fact we restricted both united and city to longish shots and set pieces.

 

New coach required

[up and away]

It's an impossible question because the money spent on GR has nothing to do with potential defensive signings. The question makes an assumption that that money would've been spent elsewhere if it weren't spent on him, which we don't know and Adkins' interviews suggest otherwise IMO, with him giving clear hints that other defensive targets were identified but not signed for some reason.

 

I for one am glad we signed Ramirez, based on what I've heard and seen, and think any signing in any position that potentially improves the squad is money well spent.

 

Not sure it is that impossible. Against Wigan we saw a totally different game where we could not break down their counter attacking set up. Against ManU and ManC we were afforded a lot of space which we will not get at the other end of the table. ManU and ManC would like every team to go head to head with them and bet their players would come out on top. Ferguson never even went for it at ManC for that very reason. We have to be able to break down the Wigans of this league, otherwise we have no chance. Equally we have to defend well enough against the likes of Wigan to square that circle.

 

The other major point is we must accomplish this over 90 minutes, not leave ourselve dead on our feet for the last 20 minutes.

[david in sweden]

......... Yoshida untested. QUOTE]

 

 

 

you mean those games for the Japanese international side were just " training games" then ..?

 

He was in the same side as Tadanari Lee when they won the Asian Cup.. so who should we play him against to "test " him before first team selection?.

[dubai_phil]

In answer to the OP

 

No

 

HTH

[Toadhall Saint]

How many more times does this need to be covered eh? Jeez it gets so boring. It was obvious to all that we were looking for defenders but they have to be right for the club/team. We got one in that would seem to fit the bill but its not like popping to Tesco's and picking one up like some kind of ready meal.

 

So for me we spent what we did on improving the squad - that has happened. Who's to say that there isn't another £12m sat in the bank waiting for the right person?

[S-Clarke]

I think as a club we have funds to call upon when required. I don't think the Gaston money was taken away from a budget to by a CB, there was still money avaliable to buy a CB if needed (which we did with Maya)

 

I think we couldn't secure who we wanted, that's the general feeling I have. As you saw with Gaston, we are after a high calibire of player - not just your normal player. We could have easily panicked and agreed to pay Blackburn £6m for Dann, but it wouldn't have been a clever investment because we're obviously not too sure on him - I know I'm not either.

 

So it's best to bide your time and wait for the player you want to become available, rather than spend £6m on a player who you really don't feel is potentially up to the long-term job. Maya was a good compromise as he's young, will improve, and was a snip at just under £2m. So that's not too much of a gamble.

 

I've heard nothing but good things about Maya though, from everyone I ask (I've got a few people I know who watch a lot of dutch football). Even though he was in a team who had the worst defence, he was always their stand out player - in their opinions he's the reason they've always stayed up, he's a better standard of player than the club.

[Raging Bull]

After all our defensive frailties I'm looking forward to watching Maya play almost as much as Gaston.

[Wade Garrett]

I think as a club we have funds to call upon when required. I don't think the Gaston money was taken away from a budget to by a CB, there was still money avaliable to buy a CB if needed (which we did with Maya)

 

I think we couldn't secure who we wanted, that's the general feeling I have. As you saw with Gaston, we are after a high calibire of player - not just your normal player. We could have easily panicked and agreed to pay Blackburn £6m for Dann, but it wouldn't have been a clever investment because we're obviously not too sure on him - I know I'm not either.

 

So it's best to bide your time and wait for the player you want to become available, rather than spend £6m on a player who you really don't feel is potentially up to the long-term job. Maya was a good compromise as he's young, will improve, and was a snip at just under £2m. So that's not too much of a gamble.

 

I've heard nothing but good things about Maya though, from everyone I ask (I've got a few people I know who watch a lot of dutch football). Even though he was in a team who had the worst defence, he was always their stand out player - in their opinions he's the reason they've always stayed up, he's a better standard of player than the club.

 

Good to know that about Yoshida.

[Chez]

no. If the Wigan showed anything it showed that we lacked a cutting edge up front and needed more quality in the wide forward areas, so I for one are glad we spent big in that position. Our defence isn't nearly as bad as people are making out. United put 8 past Arsenal last season. They also almost won the title and spent £27m on a striker.

[sadoldgit]

Personally I am gutted we signed Keegan. Just think of how many average players we could have signed if Big Mac had not gone for him!

 

It is a sign of intent. If Ramirez is that good hopefully a better quality of player will want to come to St Marys.

[Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd]

Then pray tell, why have you not responded to the excellent post by Minsk.........

 

And now to answer the OP:

 

1. I am amazed that any Saints fan could have felt 'annoyed' over the signing of such a highly rated player.

 

2. Yes, there were, and still are, other areas that needed attention. In particular goalkeeper and defence. However, we did sign two goalkeepers (admittedly one was for the development squad), an England U21 international RB and a full Japanese international CB. So we didn't exactly ignore those areas.

 

3. You state we ignored those areas in favour of 'unknown' strikers and attacking midfielders. I presume you mean 'unknown to you' as I had certainly heard of all our signings before they were recruited. In fact, I am sure the majority of posters on here had heard of Ramirez (the prime 'annoyance' of yours) and Mayuka before they were linked with us.

 

4. Why do people still think that the signing of any and all new players at football clubs, and particularly at Saints, is all down to the manager? That sort of thing went out of the window many years ago at most clubs. It has been widely stated that Saints have a committee for the recruitment of new players. I am sure Adkins does have a high degree of say in that committee but it is not all down to him to identify players, negotiate with them and their agents and hen to get them to sign on the dotted line. This does not mean anyone is a Cortese signing either; it is a group effort. And, in any case, Adkins clearly admitted, on a number of occasions, that he wanted to bring in 2 CBs; it is also pretty clear that he would have also liked to bring in a new LB, so any criticism of him 'not buying enough defenders' is well off IMO.

 

5. I have kept the most pertinent answer to your post until last......... Where has anybody said that Ramirez was signed at the expense of signing other possible options, especially in other positions (i.e. CB and LB). How do you collate, and justify, our signing of a fantastic young creative attacking player as being the reason we didn't sign any other defenders apart from the full international CB and the U21 international RB? Please find me a statement from Adkins or Cortese that says this is so. Also, please give me a list of all the players we asked about or negotiated with and the reasons as to why these deals didn't come off, particularly indicating those that were scratched solely because of the funds being used to purchase Gaston!

 

I and many others look forward to your response!

 

When exactly did you become the spokesperson for 'many others'? I don't see a list of people demanding a response. This isn't a court room where users are put on some kind of trial. It's a Internet forum for discussing topics relating to Saints. The purpose of this thread was to get people talking, which unless I'm mistaken, it has. Amongst all the petty name calling there are some good view points. Minsk's post is excellent - Well written, concise and raises some valid points. I don't have to respond to every post on here just to satisfy you and your 'ner ner, ner ner ner, told you so' attitude.

My original post asked the question, 'could the money spent on GR have been better spent elsewhere?' my opinion (and it would appear the opinion of some others) is that it could. I gave my view on why I felt this was the case. I accept that may not be everybody's opinion but that's no reason to start ridiculing people. Minsk obviously feels differently and has given his reasons why. He's gone about it in a sensible and well reasoned manner without trying to hang people out to dry.

[Dalek2003]

Nobody has been more lambasted and vilified than myself over the summer.

The reason being that i constantly warned of our need to shore up the defence and act decisivley.

Once again, I had the courage to swim against the tide and stick to my beliefs.

Once again i have been proven right.

 

I have held forth the beacon of truth since the failure to appoint Hoddle fiasco in 2004.

I am probably one of the most fearless but essentially the clearest thinking posters in the world !

[Chez]

Nobody has been more lambasted and vilified than myself over the summer.

The reason being that i constantly warned of our need to shore up the defence and act decisivley.

Once again, I had the courage to swim against the tide and stick to my beliefs.

Once again i have been proven right.

 

I have held forth the beacon of truth since the failure to appoint Hoddle fiasco in 2004.

I am probably one of the most fearless but essentially the clearest thinking posters in the world !

 

you are great.

[scotty]

Nobody has been more lambasted and vilified than myself over the summer.

The reason being that i constantly warned of our need to shore up the defence and act decisivley.

Once again, I had the courage to swim against the tide and stick to my beliefs.

Once again i have been proven right.

 

I have held forth the beacon of truth since the failure to appoint Hoddle fiasco in 2004.

I am probably one of the most fearless but essentially the clearest thinking posters in the world !

 

 

Stop putting yourself down, you're not that bad....

[Saint Fan CaM]

In answer to the OP - no. However, I do think the money spent on Rodrigues could have been better spent - we should never have placed so much (monetary) faith in a lower league player when what was desperately needed was to raise the overall competency level in the squad. You don't do that by recruiting more L1/Championship level players - we needed to be buying 3-4 players of Ramirez's stature.

[saintsmike25]

If we beat/drew against Wigan then all this transfer ******** wouldn't be a subject - one bad result does not make a season.

 

We were expected to lose against Man Utd and Man City - but we played better than we EVER thought we could.

 

Yes the defence isn't good enough but then again which defence is great against the two best attacks in the Premiership? The Wigan game was clearly a blip, Fonte is having a bad start so far. It doesn't mean we won't strengthen in January and GR and the Japanese CB haven't even touched a ball!

 

Bit unfair to say the least, put it this way we will pick up points soon enough - who is to say we can't beat Arsenal away? a fragile team mentally. A bit like us who often suffer bad results when they're expected to win.

 

Given we ran Man Utd and Man City damn close what have we got to fear? Absolutely nothing. Once we get our first win the confidence will flow. Just wait.

[cellone]

Nobody has been more lambasted and vilified than myself over the summer.

The reason being that i constantly warned of our need to shore up the defence and act decisivley.

Once again, I had the courage to swim against the tide and stick to my beliefs.

Once again i have been proven right.

 

I have held forth the beacon of truth since the failure to appoint Hoddle fiasco in 2004.

I am probably one of the most fearless but essentially the clearest thinking posters in the world !

 

Well done you.

[Wes Tender]

When exactly did you become the spokesperson for 'many others'? I don't see a list of people demanding a response. This isn't a court room where users are put on some kind of trial. It's a Internet forum for discussing topics relating to Saints. The purpose of this thread was to get people talking, which unless I'm mistaken, it has. Amongst all the petty name calling there are some good view points. Minsk's post is excellent - Well written, concise and raises some valid points. I don't have to respond to every post on here just to satisfy you and your 'ner ner, ner ner ner, told you so' attitude.

My original post asked the question, 'could the money spent on GR have been better spent elsewhere?' my opinion (and it would appear the opinion of some others) is that it could. I gave my view on why I felt this was the case. I accept that may not be everybody's opinion but that's no reason to start ridiculing people. Minsk obviously feels differently and has given his reasons why. He's gone about it in a sensible and well reasoned manner without trying to hang people out to dry.

 

And Minsk very politely asked you to respond to the points he raised in his 5th item on the list, which for some reason you have declined to do. Would I guess correctly that you cannot answer? If so, Minsk has fairly conclusively demolished the entire basis for your post, which is that the money spent on Ramirez meant that it was not available to be spent elsewhere on the team. Unless you can furnish any sort of evidence relating to what had been budgeted by the club towards the signing of new players, there is no point in the thread, is there?

[saintsmike25]

As for Gaston Ramirez imagine his "sell on" fee if we go down. It's a win win signing for me if he has a good season and we go down his value will be double what we paid for him. He's 21 and meant to be sheer class.

 

It's a very clever signing because it gives us some comfort money should we go down.

[the saint in winchester]

In answer to the OP

 

YES

 

I wouldn't have spend £12M on any one player. OK. maybe RVP.

Priority to my mind, and most others, was DEFENCE. Not in Adkins', it seems. We seem to have brought back Keegan's all out attack approach.

[theyin]

I hope Yoshi comes good and his influence ups Hoo's game but I fear the lack of buys at the back is akin to abysmal business done this transfer window at Anfield with regard to their front line.

[Reynoldson!!]

We'll be right. Have faith my pretties

[kpturner]

In answer to the OP

 

YES

 

I wouldn't have spend £12M on any one player. OK. maybe RVP.

Priority to my mind, and most others, was DEFENCE. Not in Adkins', it seems. We seem to have brought back Keegan's all out attack approach.

It is like a broken record! What the f*** has Adkins got to do with it? I doubt he had hardly any influence at all on whether or not Ramirez was purchased - and there is also zero evidence that the money used for Ramirez prevented us signing a central defender. Most of the players that join bang on about the vision Cortese presented them, so I doubt Adkins even meets the new signings until after it is done and dusted.

 

Until I see Ramirez play in the EPL I will reserve judgement about whether or not he was worth the money.

[alpine_saint]

I am going to look at this another way....

 

If I were given the choice as to which of our new signings gets off to a flying start, settling quickly - one from Ramirez, Mayuka, and Yoshida, it would have to be Yoshida, since I think the need for him is the most urgent.

[Minty]

I am going to look at this another way....

 

If I were given the choice as to which of our new signings gets off to a flying start, settling quickly - one from Ramirez, Mayuka, and Yoshida, it would have to be Yoshida, since I think the need for him is the most urgent.

I doubt many people would argue with that, we have scored goals and created chances, but conceded too many. But that doesn't detract from a, IMO, misguided original post.

[Bearsy]

I'm also looking at this another way!

 

Would I swap Adam Lallana for a better left back? Nah.

[Torres]

Until I see Ramirez play in the EPL I will reserve judgement about whether or not he was worth the money.

 

You'll get nowhere with conventional thinking like that, my friend.

[BARCELONASAINT]

In addition, there wasnt a lot of bank bursting CB transfer activity going on over the summer that I recall.

 

So what were we priced out of ?

 

By now i would have thought you would have realised that 99% of players we go after or show an interest we NEVER KNOW about! Its been that way since NC took over and i for one am quite happy with this. Occasionally we have got to hear about a possible player but its fair to say YOU and the rest of us have no idea who the management were trying to get in.....and just because we dont know doesnt mean they were not trying to address the issue with the right players!

[tajjuk]

Why has Delgado been brought into this conversation? Bit tenuous really, only link i can see is that Delgado and Ramirez are both from South America. Ramirez is much younger, has top flight experience in a top european league, plays in a different position, and was wanted by clubs a lot bigger than us. Oh and he probably doesn't have a career threatening injury either. It's a safe bet to say he is better signing than Delgado.

 

Incidentally for all the "our defence needs serious investment talk". We played Man U and Many City and conceded 3 goals in each game.

 

Villa (twice), Swansea, Norwich (twice), Utd (hah!) Spurs, Arsenal, Wigan, Fulham all conceded more than 3 goals against Man Utd or Man City last year AND in all those games none managed to score 2 goals AND all stayed up.

 

The only real concern was our performance at home against Wigan where we didn't take our chances and create enough (plus conceded a late silly goal chasing the game).

[Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd]

And Minsk very politely asked you to respond to the points he raised in his 5th item on the list, which for some reason you have declined to do. Would I guess correctly that you cannot answer? If so, Minsk has fairly conclusively demolished the entire basis for your post, which is that the money spent on Ramirez meant that it was not available to be spent elsewhere on the team. Unless you can furnish any sort of evidence relating to what had been budgeted by the club towards the signing of new players, there is no point in the thread, is there?

 

Well if there's no point to this thread why have you and plenty of other replied to it? I think I'll reply to Minsk via a PM. That way I won't have to endure anymore of this nonsense. :-)

[Minty]

Well if there's no point to this thread why have you and plenty of other replied to it? I think I'll reply to Minsk via a PM. That way I won't have to endure anymore of this nonsense. :-)

A simple answer to the question: 'Do you think the signing of a CB was in some way prevented/denied because of the money spent on Ramirez?' is all many of us are asking.

 

And if the answer is yes, how did you come to this conclusion?

[Wes Tender]

Well if there's no point to this thread why have you and plenty of other replied to it? I think I'll reply to Minsk via a PM. That way I won't have to endure anymore of this nonsense. :-)

I think that you'll find that many of those who have replied to your OP, have done so to argue exactly the point made by Minsk; that the whole basis for it is flawed, unless you can furnish evidence that monies spent on Ramirez were at the expense of expenditure on defenders.

 

So in the absence of any evidence to support your argument, I'll assume that you have none. And on that basis, you are unable to answer Minsk's requests in his 5th point. By all means, send him a PM and admit that you can't provide him with answers to his questions, so you don't have to admit it on here.

[alpine_saint]

I think that you'll find that many of those who have replied to your OP, have done so to argue exactly the point made by Minsk; that the whole basis for it is flawed, unless you can furnish evidence that monies spent on Ramirez were at the expense of expenditure on defenders.

 

So in the absence of any evidence to support your argument, I'll assume that you have none. And on that basis, you are unable to answer Minsk's requests in his 5th point. By all means, send him a PM and admit that you can't provide him with answers to his questions, so you don't have to admit it on here.

 

Would you have been happier if the title had stated " Was a player of the nature of GR really an important priority over other reinforcements for this summer ?"

Edited 4 September, 2012 by alpine_saint

[Torres]

" Was player of the nature of GR really an important priority over other reinforcements for this summer ?"

 

Was he a priority for those at the club?

[Minty]

Would you have been happier if the title had stated " Was player of the nature of GR really an important priority over other reinforcements for this summer ?"

Personally, no, because it again makes assumptions and implications that his signing was in some way a priority over defensive players, something there is no evidence for.

 

That is the crux of this: Some people seem to have this notion that because we did not sign the desired defensive players, that we did not 'prioritise' it in some way, when there is zero evidence to suggest this was the case, and Adkins himself made clear that he wanted to sign defenders.

[Wes Tender]

Would you have been happier if the title had stated " Was player of the nature of GR really an important priority over other reinforcements for this summer ?"

 

Alps, I would have been perfectly content with a hypothetical debate based on the assumption that we had X £s to spend on improving our team, where should it be spent and on whom?

 

But here the assumption has been made, without any concrete evidence, that monies spent on Ramirez have deprived us of cash to invest in defenders. Furthermore, as has been pointed out by others too, the blame does not rest solely on Adkins' shoulders.

 

But if the OP had been along the lines of your more sensible suggestion, then personally I would want our defensive shortcomings to be addressed, but I'm really impressed at the show of ambition that brings a player of Ramirez's quality to our team. I think that we would have been pretty well there, had the Buttner deal gone through and he wouldn't have broken the bank.

[Whitey Grandad]

A simple answer to the question: 'Do you think the signing of a CB was in some way prevented/denied because of the money spent on Ramirez?' is all many of us are asking.

 

And if the answer is yes, how did you come to this conclusion?

 

It may not have been a case of money. Dealing with the Ramirez transfer must have taken up a lot of time, although you'd hope that the club could handle more than a couple of deals at the same time.

[Minty]

It may not have been a case of money. Dealing with the Ramirez transfer must have taken up a lot of time, although you'd hope that the club could handle more than a couple of deals at the same time.

 

We clearly negotiated and signed Yoshi and Mayuka around the same time, had held negotiations with Buttner previously... I would suggest that as a professional football club we're more than capable.

 

But this thread, and the OP in particular, are focusing on the money, hence my simple question.

[Saint Without a Halo]

No have faith in the management

[alpine_saint]

We clearly negotiated and signed Yoshi and Mayuka around the same time, had held negotiations with Buttner previously... I would suggest that as a professional football club we're more than capable.

 

 

Well I am not so sure. I can quite easily envisage NC dealing with the discussions on a personal basis. That means spreading himself thin.

[Minty]

Well I am not so sure. I can quite easily envisage NC dealing with the discussions on a personal basis. That means spreading himself thin.

Each to their own alps, I would suggest however that the only basis for that is your own negative interpretation of events, which you're perfectly entitled to but I can't see the logic in it.

[Frank's cousin]

When you a building for the future, sometimes you need to take a chnace and go get the players a) when they are avaialble, b) before someone else does and c) when they are still affordable - If ramirez has a good season in the prem, there will be plenty on here with loose sphincters next summer as bigger offer come in the CL clubs...

 

Did us signing Ramirez prevent us signing some qaulity defenders? I dont think so, I believe we simply did not get who we wre after or they were not available at this time - that happens to all clubs - sometimes you just have to get lucky and be in the right place at the right time... we were with ramirez.

[alpine_saint]

Each to their own alps, I would suggest however that the only basis for that is your own negative interpretation of events, which you're perfectly entitled to but I can't see the logic in it.

 

I dont see that as negative at all, its just his working style. He's done well for the club overall.

[Minty]

Given that your implication is that we did not sign any other defenders as a result of this 'working style', I interpret that as being negative. Sorry if that's not the case but it certainly comes across that way.

[alpine_saint]

Given that your implication is that we did not sign any other defenders as a result of this 'working style', I interpret that as being negative. Sorry if that's not the case but it certainly comes across that way.

 

As I said earlier, people see what they want to.

 

Yes, I think he may have dropped the ball here, but overall he has built an impressive squad and the highlight for me is that he squeezed Wenger's and Arsenal's balls dry over AOC.

[Minty]

As I said earlier, people see what they want to.

 

Maybe you also occasionally need to think about the way you put things then... if so many people are telling you that you come across as being negative, then it can't always be the fault of the reader...