Subs

[northam soul]

So the reason we lost then was nothing to do with the person marking van persie not doing a very good job at it .

Quality striker or not i would say our inability to deal with him cost us more than changing our forward line. Last 2 came from corners didnt they.

[Roger]

I can see the reason why he was played up through the middle, his pace and strength running onto the flicks from Guly and Rodrgiuez. In theory, a good idea, but I just feel all 3 changes were made too quickly.

 

Okay understand what you're saying but then we didn't utilise it right way as we kept punting it to his head. Should have been playing balls down the channel. If we are going to play him through middle though tough to see how he will fit in unless we play 442. Where do u think he will play and what would ur eleven be when everyone available?

[Noodles34]

Can't quite believe, on just 10 mins, certain people have come to the conclusion that Mayuka looked useless and ineffective.

 

Let's give him a chance eh? Christ.

 

you cant judge him on today, the whole shape and direction of the team changed, to write him off after that is plian stupid, Guly on the other hand....

[Noodles34]

So the reason we lost then was nothing to do with the person marking van persie not doing a very good job at it .

Quality striker or not i would say our inability to deal with him cost us more than changing our forward line. Last 2 came from corners didnt they.

 

plenty of better defenders have failed to cut out RVP, that wasnt the reason we lost today.

[beatlesaint]

I can see the reason why he was played up through the middle, his pace and strength running onto the flicks from Guly and Rodrgiuez. In theory, a good idea, but I just feel all 3 changes were made too quickly.

 

So before the changes we had a big centre forward who was causing them all sorts of problems and two lively small tricky wingers each side of him who were doing the same.

After the changes we had a small centre forward who never had the ball knocked in behind their centre backs for him to run onto and show his strength which is his pace and two playing out wide who are both big guys, one of whom is a centre forward and the other who is, umm, Guly, both of whom are niether lively or tricky !!

 

So we changed the whole look and effectiveness of the front line ? Brilliant.

[Didcot Saint]

I hope Adkins reads this although I very much doubt it. We can't all be wrong,us fans do actually know something about football.

[channonball]

Don't be silly, you cant question a professional football manager on here ...

[Junior Mullet]

The biggest mistake for me was Mayuka not holding the ball up but instead insisting solely on balls he could run on to. Lambo holds the ball up so well and brings others into the game - he was a massive loss when he went off.

 

JRod, sorry but whats the point?

[shurlock]

So before the changes we had a big centre forward who was causing them all sorts of problems and two lively small tricky wingers each side of him who were doing the same.

After the changes we had a small centre forward who never had the ball knocked in behind their centre backs for him to run onto and show his strength which is his pace and two playing out wide who are both big guys, one of whom is a centre forward and the other who is, umm, Guly, both of whom are niether lively or tricky !!

 

So we changed the whole look and effectiveness of the front line ? Brilliant.

 

The point of putting Jrod on the left was to provide an outball on the wing, exploiting the height advantage over rafael.

[BadgerBadger]

Should have kept Lambert on and brought on Sharp to end on a 4-4-2...............................erm, oh yeah

[Dig Dig]

Marking from corners was worse, or giving away pointless corners in the first place.

 

This. If we did the basics right, no one would be mentioning the subs.

[Saint Fan CaM]

At this level you cannot blame the players for being played out of position - week in week out. Even when there's a chance to play JayRod down the middle he STILL gets positioned on the left and yet it's perfectly clear that it's not working. Either give Rickie a break and see if he's up to the task or don't play him atall. When Mayuka and Ramirez are available, who's going to give way? JayR should not be picked to play wide before these guys or Lallana, Puncheon and dare I say it, even De Ridder.

[beatlesaint]

The point of putting Jrod on the left was to provide an outball on the wing, exploiting the height advantage over rafael.

 

Instead of putting a pacey wide man out there as an outlet you mean ? umm

We didnt bother with the height advantage against him for the rest of the game in normal play except when crosses came in to the box and Rickie pulled out at the far post.

 

It didnt work.

[Window Cleaner]

Whilst we're on the subject of subs wtf is NA's problem with Tadanari Lee? Likes to play on the left and would probably have worried Utd's defence a whole lot more than JRod. If he's not fit then why have him on the bench but it would seem to me that NA is just trying to justify all the money we spent on JRod by squeezing him into the side somewhere. Didn't Liverpool and Utd do that last season with Henderson and Jones respectively?

[JustMike]

The biggest mistake for me was Mayuka not holding the ball up but instead insisting solely on balls he could run on to. Lambo holds the ball up so well and brings others into the game - he was a massive loss when he went off.

 

JRod, sorry but whats the point?

 

especially if you play him on the left! TBH I thought the game changer was Guly, just to "casual" on the ball and seems to think he doesn't have to defend. Too early to tell if Mayuka will be any good but at times yesterday I thought he was Ali Dia!

[Window Cleaner]

but at times yesterday I thought he was Ali Dia!

 

That good huh!!

[Alain Perrin]

Over the last two seasons Adkins has made some fantastic substitutions, right player, right time, but he ****ed it today. Puncheon was having a tremendous game and didn't look tired at all so no idea why he was taken off. Lambert is massive defensively at corners and Lallana relieves pressure by keeping the ball. Terrible subs, terrible. I'm not saying this just with hindsight. Said so at the time.

 

Very fine lines at this level. Can't make mistakes like that

 

Everyone is learning at this level and if you ask Adkins he would probably say it was a mistake too. However you can see the logic in what he did (fresh legs etc.), it just didn't work out. A manager is only as good as his last substitutions (if you look at Man City they made a difference there - and who can forget Jonno Quick's only meaningful contribution to Saints vs. MK Dons).

 

Blame Adkins, but we won't be the first or last team to concede late against Man Utd. We can only hope that he uses the experience positively and maybe does something different next time.

 

Gutted, but we've got to hold our heads up. We've matched in large parts the big boys and this can only bode well for more winnable games.

[IN MY DAY]

I hope Atkins learns fast, yesterday was niave. We have come up through the divisions, ruthlessly rotating between the midfield with Hammond, Spider, Chaplow and Cork. Davis, Prowse were knackered towards the end. That was made yesterday for Hammond to come on with fresh legs for the last 10 mins and and we no longer have that option.

 

When Scholes come on, the world and his wife knows what Scholes does, and we didnt get within 10 yards of him when he recieved the ball.

 

Top effort, we can compete in this league, but Atkins has blew it yesterday and and possibly in the window.

 

Fonte and Jos, havnt just started looking sloppy, this was happening last year but we got away with it. Every mistake has been ruthlessly punished.

 

and one further point, Atkins fit is different from Premiership Fit. We are use to controlling the tempo, we now have to chase and close down for the 90mins and we are looking short.

[Frank's cousin]

Agreed Naive - but we will learn from it - we have to! - Give JRod and Mayuka time - they have not had a chance to gell by a long way and if playing Jrod in different position he will take time to learn this - he is young and should be able to adapt given time.

 

Chappers or Hammond would have been good subs - but we also have to give Nige time - this was a CCC/L1 decsion which in those leagues have given us the game IMHO, but not so in the prem, where when we were bossing the mid field and causing problems, we should have goe for the 3rd goal and kiled it off whilst we had a chance - and if i hear that fricken annoying tired cliche that MU 'never give up' or I will sling the lap top through the telly... AAARGHH

[Sour Mash]

Agreed Naive - but we will learn from it - we have to! - Give JRod and Mayuka time - they have not had a chance to gell by a long way and if playing Jrod in different position he will take time to learn this - he is young and should be able to adapt given time.

 

Chappers or Hammond would have been good subs - but we also have to give Nige time - this was a CCC/L1 decsion which in those leagues have given us the game IMHO, but not so in the prem, where when we were bossing the mid field and causing problems, we should have goe for the 3rd goal and kiled it off whilst we had a chance - and if i hear that fricken annoying tired cliche that MU 'never give up' or I will sling the lap top through the telly... AAARGHH

Agreed. The problem wasn't necessarily the performance of the players that came on, more the way the actual substitutions were executed. Adkins should have made one sub and then waited to see how it panned out. He changed too much in too short a period of time. How much does Adkins know about Mayuka's game? Did he really know what he was getting when he brought him on?

 

We could have done with Chaplow or Hammond on the bench.

 

I am a big Adkins fan, but he ballsed up yesterday and I really hope Cortese shows him a bit of patience.

[tttdcs]

Agreed. The problem wasn't necessarily the performance of the players that came on, more the way the actual substitutions were executed. Adkins should have made one sub and then waited to see how it panned out. He changed too much in too short a period of time. How much does Adkins know about Mayuka's game? Did he really know what he was getting when he brought him on?

 

We could have done with Chaplow or Hammond on the bench.

 

I am a big Adkins fan, but he ballsed up yesterday and I really hope Cortese shows him a bit of patience.

 

 

psst - before MLG wets himself, I think Hammond is at Brighton

[monkadill]

Adkins blew the three points today, no other way to put it.

indeed.

[Sour Mash]

psst - before MLG wets himself, I think Hammond is at Brighton

I am well aware of that. Kind of my point.

[Ian the Red]

We needed to make subs, but NA imo took off the wrong players. Ward-Prowse was immense, literally ran himself into the ground; had cramp in the last 5 minutes, so why was he not taken off? Davies also looked knackered, again he gave everything to the cause. These two should have been the first to go, JWP then SD, that would have made sense to me to counter the threat that Scholes created. NA got it wrong today, he must, must learn that RL will be feared by every CB in this league and I did not see him ask to come off. If RL did need to come off then surely JRod should have replaced him. I do not understand why you do not replace like with like when having a big strong CF in the team caused so much havoc in the ManUre defence for 71 minutes.

 

For Arsenal one change to the starting XI, Yoshida in for Jose. Ramirez on the bench.

[SaintSarah]

Only the 3rd game of the season, are you telling me that some of our top players cant do the full 90 mins. Something needs to change there.

[S-Clarke]

We needed to make subs, but NA imo took off the wrong players. Ward-Prowse was immense, literally ran himself into the ground; had cramp in the last 5 minutes, so why was he not taken off? Davies also looked knackered, again he gave everything to the cause. These two should have been the first to go, JWP then SD, that would have made sense to me to counter the threat that Scholes created. NA got it wrong today, he must, must learn that RL will be feared by every CB in this league and I did not see him ask to come off. If RL did need to come off then surely JRod should have replaced him. I do not understand why you do not replace like with like when having a big strong CF in the team caused so much havoc in the ManUre defence for 71 minutes.

 

For Arsenal one change to the starting XI, Yoshida in for Jose. Ramirez on the bench.

 

But who would you have replaced Davis, or W-P with? There weren't any like for likes on the bench.

 

We had Guly, Rodriguez, Mayuka, Seaborne, Richardson, Lee.

 

So in theory, NA's hand was forced with what he had available to him. He needed to freshen it up, and the only area he could freshen up was the front 3. Unfortunately I still feel he made all 3 changes too quickly.

[S-Clarke]

Only the 3rd game of the season, are you telling me that some of our top players cant do the full 90 mins. Something needs to change there.

 

Well, we're a fit side, but the effort we put in for 60/70mins was immense. The closing down, the chasing, the tackling - of course some players are going to be knackered after that. Our fitness will improve as we become used to this level, but Morgan made a very valid point in his post-match interview.

 

''We're a fit side, but we were struggling with 15 mins to go, which shows you the intensity of this level and we need to adapt'' . It may be that we need to pace ourselves a bit during games, rather than going gung-ho for 70 odd mins, but it's harsh to expect W-P at 17 to be as fit as Carrick for e.g

[Hatch]

Even my bird questioned the substitutions and said they made no sense.

 

And she supports Chelsea so therefore knows f-all about football.

[Dig Dig]

especially if you play him on the left! TBH I thought the game changer was Guly, just to "casual" on the ball and seems to think he doesn't have to defend. Too early to tell if Mayuka will be any good but at times yesterday I thought he was Ali Dia!

 

Ridiculous comment IMO, why do we always seem to make sweeping judegments on players having only seen them for a few minutes?

[Smirking_Saint]

I sort of agreed with punch and Lallana, they were knackered so can see the merits there, Guly has more defensive attributes to JP aswell.

 

We needed Lambert to stay on IMO though, Mayuka would havebeen an effective outlet if we could have got the ball to stick up there.

 

It wasnt the subs that lost itfor us though, it was more a complete implossion at the back and the fact that nobody had an answer to Scholes calm yet decisive passing

[eurosaint]

Nigel was roundly praised for his substitutions at Man City with Lambert and Davis coming on, both scoring and immediately changing the game !

Nigel is roundly criticised for his substitutions against Man Utd (many different reasons!).

The fact is that he must live or die by his own decisions, that is his job and he is not afraid to make important calls !

FWIW I thought he got it badly wrong yesterday but I also think that he is big enough to both realise it and learn from it !

I guess also that many of us were surprised by the original lineup but that seemed to work amazingly well !!

[eelpie]

It seems that despite spending £7M we still don't yet have an adequate replacement for Rickie Lambert.

 

We did have.

 

Billy Sharp's goals took us to the Prem when Ricky was not scoring at the tail-end of last season. Sharp is a goal snatcher and had a great pre-season. A big mistake to loan him out at this time. He would not have played out of position and would have been a better goal threat than any of the three subs..

[Frank's cousin]

... only thing I will add... and not saying its that important given we came away with null point - is that its is fricken excellent that we are in a position to be moaning about throwing the points away against Man U and that for parts of the game we had them on the ropes and arguably SHOULD have won. It shows we can compete and that the squad is not one that is going to get hammered by the best sides. Yes we may be a little adrift by the time they find their stride and Adkins learns his part in all this, but given the performances against city and MU, I am quite excited by this squad - just hope the we sort a few things out and we should be fine.

[Smirking_Saint]

We did have.

 

Billy Sharp's goals took us to the Prem when Ricky was not scoring at the tail-end of last season. Sharp is a goal snatcher and had a great pre-season. A big mistake to loan him out at this time. He would not have played out of position and would have been a better goal threat than any of the three subs..

 

Completely disagree, we didnt need a goal threat at the end yesterday, we needed soneone to give the ball to, hold it up and take pressure off. J Rod is a goal snatcher too but has more dimensions to his game than Billy.

 

Billy would have given us little in the closing 20 yesterday.

[Sour Mash]

... only thing I will add... and not saying its that important given we came away with null point - is that its is fricken excellent that we are in a position to be moaning about throwing the points away against Man U and that for parts of the game we had them on the ropes and arguably SHOULD have won. It shows we can compete and that the squad is not one that is going to get hammered by the best sides. Yes we may be a little adrift by the time they find their stride and Adkins learns his part in all this' date=' but given the performances against city and MU, I am quite excited by this squad - just hope the we sort a few things out and we should be fine.[/quote'] |Agreed, but it is what makes the subs so frustrating - we'd worked so hard and played so well to get something out of the game, to lose it like that at the end was frustrating to say the least.

[Frank's cousin]

|Agreed, but it is what makes the subs so frustrating - we'd worked so hard and played so well to get something out of the game, to lose it like that at the end was frustrating to say the least.

 

Aye and I was screaming at the telly:x - but I think its great we re so annoyed with NIge in a way, because its far better that than being worried after a 0-4 drubbing which some were worried about.

[notnowcato]

I know he's now at Brighton but we could have done with Hammond coming on for the last 20 minutes, fresh legs were desperately needed in the middle.

 

Why was Hammond loaned out in such a rush? Loan window to Championship doesn't close for a few weeks yet and Cork is not fit for selection. I'm not saying Hammond is the answer or necessarily the future but he could have done a job yesterday afternoon. Seems like a poor decision (whoever made it) to ship Hammond out when we are short of central midfield players.

[surrey1saint]

Wrong subs,too early in match .....would have left Lambo & Adam on at least.....crazy subs ...suicide!

[Le Timmier]

Tactically, and given what he had on the bench, Adkins' substitutions made sense: the last thing you want to do against ManU with a 2-1 lead is sit back and try to soak up their pressure: they will pick you apart. Clearly Rodriguez and Guly were supposed to help provide some attacking strength in the middle of the field, help us press forward and keep the pressure off the defence. Unfortunately, neither of them managed to contribute anything! So blame them for not doing their job, rather than Adkins for trying the right approach. If we'd had Yoshida to bring on to spell Fonte for the last 15 minutes; or Cork to help out in a tiring midfield, fine: but neither was available. Personally, I might have tried Lee with his pace rather than Guly, but I don't fault Adkins for going with the more experienced player. We were definitely much worse as a team, though, when Lallana and Puncheon and Lambert came off: depth was the issue, with a very weak bench today. Bring on Ramirez, and Yoshida, and bring back Cork: then we'll look a lot stronger all round.

 

On the whole, today was a promising game: just such a pity about those last few minutes ...

 

This

[Thedelldays]

Completely disagree, we didnt need a goal threat at the end yesterday, we needed soneone to give the ball to, hold it up and take pressure off. J Rod is a goal snatcher too but has more dimensions to his game than Billy.

 

Billy would have given us little in the closing 20 yesterday.

 

Yep

 

Taking Lambert and lallana off and putting Mayuka up front and Rodriguez left was utterly strange..

 

Taking Puncheon off altogether along with the above made for the first time wonder about adkins

 

Puncheon was having a brilliant game

[eurosaint]

http://backpagefootball.com/southampton-may-appeal-to-the-neutral-but-must-adapt-to-survive/48361/?

 

An interesting take from a neutral, makes some valid points IMO !

[surrey1saint]

Yep

 

Taking Lambert and lallana off and putting Mayuka up front and Rodriguez left was utterly strange..

 

Taking Puncheon off altogether along with the above made for the first time wonder about adkins

 

Puncheon was having a brilliant game

Yep...agreed

[cambsaint]

With the benefit of hindsight Chaplow would have been the ideal player to try to nullify Scholes.

As the "Backpage article " quoted by Eurosaint says, we have to wise up to Premiership tricks very quickly.

We will have to see whether Adkins is tactically naive in this company, but we must remember we were only just beaten by one of the best club sides in the world.

If we play like we did against all except the top six then hopefully we shall survive, but I think we need a quality deputy or replacement goalkeeper, and an experienced CB asap.

[Wopper]

Shame Adkins cant admit to making a mistake.

[saint_sinner]

Do you reckon Adkins was under orders to bring Mayuka on? Ain't Cortese got form for getting narky when his personal signings don't play? Seem to remember a Pardew situation when he left Papa Waigo out or something.

 

I'm completely with you on this as mayuka had 2 days training and no understanding of english football and got thrown in the deep end when Tad Lee was a much better option.

Wasn't it Guly that Cortese wanted Pardew to play and Pardew brought him on in the 90th minute ultimately costing him his job?

If true, NC meddling in team selection is not good news!

[Bearsy]

It's a conspiracy theory innit! Slinging on Mayuka just seemed pretty random to me, and not like a normal Adkins decision cos he's pretty meticulous usually about patterns of play and team integration or whatever. It was a total roll of the dice. Something stinks! I didn't even see them bothering with that thing where they show them the little tactics sheet and explain what they're gonna do. "Oh just go up front or whatever. You can't do too much damage up there."

[Dig Dig]

I'm completely with you on this as mayuka had 2 days training and no understanding of english football and got thrown in the deep end when Tad Lee was a much better option.

Wasn't it Guly that Cortese wanted Pardew to play and Pardew brought him on in the 90th minute ultimately costing him his job?

If true, NC meddling in team selection is not good news!

 

[Bearsy]

Digs! Are you mocking the conspiracy! NC promised the dude he'd play against United, that's a FACT (insofar as I read something bout it on here)

 

The question is, would NA have wanted to make that commitments?

[Dig Dig]

Digs! Are you mocking the conspiracy! NC promised the dude he'd play against United, that's a FACT (insofar as I read something bout it on here)

 

The question is, would NA have wanted to make that commitments?

 

 

Because he's nothing but a "yes man". He's worked probably harder than most coaches to get into the position he is today considering where he has come from so it makes sense for an intelligent man to take a job under the provision that he'll get told who and when to play people.

 

His stock is so low within the game that he can nothing but accept it. He couldn't possibly walk away and tell the world how the chairman of SFC actually picks the team.

[Bearsy]

Although we're agreeing on essentially every point I still feel you're mocking me!

 

I ain't saying it for any other team selection, but I reckon on this particular occassion NC was like "I've signed this sweet player, but I had to promise he'd get a go against United."

 

NA rolled his eyes, but was like "Ok Nicolas, but I wish you'd check with me first. What if we're doing really good and I don't want to disrupt the team balance? Cvnt!" (he added the last bit under his breath as he was walking away)