Saint Bones Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 Just as a view point - there's a lot of slating of JF... but JH has given away 2 (clear) penalties in defence. Are we not happy with general positioning or marking with our defenders - or lack of application or concentration ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 Just as a view point - there's a lot of slating of JF... but JH has given away 2 (clear) penalties in defence. Are we not happy with general positioning or marking with our defenders - or lack of application or concentration ? Maybe Jos is panicking because he doesnt feel comfortable with Fontes reliability. I will never forget Niemi's Nightmare at Krapp Notarf, which I blame on a dire season from Lundekvam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Bones Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 Maybe Jos is panicking because he doesnt feel comfortable with Fontes reliability. I will never forget Niemi's Nightmare at Krapp Notarf, which I blame on a dire season from Lundekvam. A fair comment Alps.. But that tackle last night.. Was a bit ...errr "keen" to say the least. I am also in the opinion that we spent cash a bit too far forward ( as much as we needed pacey wide players ) but have thought (personaly) that in the 3 games I've seen - sadly only on TV here in Australia - That both defenders have been 'as good' as each other. JF tired in the United match ... then again so did most our players. Guess I'm not arguing at all.... Hoping that our defence might be a bit more solid in future games against opposition that are supposed to be weaker than the Manchester teams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry the Badger Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 Maybe Jos is panicking because he doesnt feel comfortable with Fontes reliability. I will never forget Niemi's Nightmare at Krapp Notarf, which I blame on a dire season from Lundekvam. Haha that's fantastic. So even Hooiveld's **** ups are Fonte's fault! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 Guess I'm not arguing at all.... Hoping that our defence might be a bit more solid in future games against opposition that are supposed to be weaker than the Manchester teams Well, we all agree on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 Haha that's fantastic. So even Hooiveld's **** ups are Fonte's fault! Its possible, thats all I am saying. Central defence is all about understanding, communication and reliance on your partner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry the Badger Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 Maybe Jos is panicking because he doesnt feel comfortable with Fontes reliability. I will never forget Niemi's Nightmare at Krapp Notarf, which I blame on a dire season from Lundekvam. Haha that's fantastic. So even Hooiveld's **** ups are Fonte's fault! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaSaint Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 Bill, it's not the zonal marking it's the fact that nobody went for the ball. At corners etc our best headers of the ball have to forget about marking space/players and bloody well get to the ball first. Agreed' date=' they need to take that responsibilty and get to it.[/quote'] Dave and FC, that's easy to say and hard to disagree with, but applying that simple principle will mean that we can easily end up with two players going for the same ball, especially at set pieces. Most of the top strikers (RVP, Tevez et.) are full of intelligent movement and they leave and enter "zones" at will, which makes them lethal to a zonal marking defence. My point is that there seem to be moments of indecision when neither Fonte nor Jos seem to know which of them should attack the ball first. That results in neither of them taking responsibility for a danger man or - more often - a critical split-second delay in doing it. Free headers in our box for RVP and Rio? I don't think our central defenders are quick enough and/or smart enough to make zonal marking work, and I can't help but wonder if we'd be better off getting them to man-mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 Haha that's fantastic. So even Hooiveld's **** ups are Fonte's fault! That's perfectly possible. Why the incredulity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 Maybe Jos is panicking because he doesnt feel comfortable with Fontes reliability. I will never forget Niemi's Nightmare at Krapp Notarf, which I blame on a dire season from Lundekvam. The penalty yesterday was a result of panic brought about by Kelvin's underhit pass. The tackle was unnecessary but the adrenalin had already been released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 The penalty yesterday was a result of panic brought about by Kelvin's underhit pass. The tackle was unnecessary but the adrenalin had already been released. OK, so maybe the cause I postulated is correct, just not the source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 On that penalty weren't it exactly the same as the one we didn't get against City? Big club bias! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 OK, so maybe the cause I postulated is correct, just not the source. I think you're right, it was more a case of general panic. Their second goal was almost comical, Kelvin ends up outside his right-hand post leaving an empty goal. The cross to Ferdinand came from our left where there was a two on one situation. Evryone seemed to be marking space, not men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 On that penalty weren't it exactly the same as the one we didn't get against City? Big club bias! Yeah, well, we knew that before the kickoff, no need to give the ref any excuse. Technically it was a legal tackle, played the ball first, caught the player slightly in the follow-through but if you let any of Tevez, Suarez, Van Persie or a host of others get a sniff of a brush against their legs then they will go down poleaxed, it's what they practise all week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackFrost Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 Hooiveld has given away 2 penalties and yet Fonte has had the most criticism. Why? Because Fonte looks to be the weaker of the two players at this level. Since Hooiveld joined I've always thought he was the better player. Sure there are many bandwagon jumpers when it comes to scapegoats but there isn't smoke without fire. We have conceded 8 goals in 3 games but half of those have come when the best two teams in the country have lay siege to our goal and put our defence under extreme pressure with world class players. Our defence has never experienced that before. Davis' distribution simply has to improve and has directly contributed to needlessly putting more pressure on our defence. If it carries on we'll start conceding goals we cannot afford to concede and NA will have to look at dropping Davis in January. If we consistently perform at the level we've played against the two Manchester's all season we'll stay up no problem. So we know we are capable of staying up. We also have Ramirez and Yoshida to come into the side yet. Ramirez is a bit of an unknown to me but I gather Yoshida is a leader. He captained the Japanese side to the semis of the Olympics and until their 3-1 defeat to Mexico the Japanese hadn't even conceded a goal in their 4 previous games (and one of those games was against Spain) Results will come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 Fonte and Jos both have their faults and they both have their strengths. Jos is a better "backs to the wall" type of defender and that's what we've needed in both Manchester games. The peno's he gave away were both naive in the extreme and he must learn from this. I dont think yesterdays would have been given in the Championship, but by the letter of the law, felt it was a pen. Fonte is better on the ball and when we play weaker sides and have a bit more possession he'll come into his own. Fonte started a bit dodgy last season, but got better and better, if he can do the same this year, he'll be ok. Competition for places will hopefully spur them both on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingeletiss Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 Lets face facts, we have been given a horrendous opening to our new premiership life, quite a few CB partnerships are going to struggle against the top four or five clubs in this league. That said I have always felt that JF would be a bit of an Achilles heel should we get promoted. For me was a good championship player when we signed him, was great in L1, helped get us promoted, but not good enough for this level. Less said about Fox imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 Dave and FC, that's easy to say and hard to disagree with, but applying that simple principle will mean that we can easily end up with two players going for the same ball, especially at set pieces. Most of the top strikers (RVP, Tevez et.) are full of intelligent movement and they leave and enter "zones" at will, which makes them lethal to a zonal marking defence. My point is that there seem to be moments of indecision when neither Fonte nor Jos seem to know which of them should attack the ball first. That results in neither of them taking responsibility for a danger man or - more often - a critical split-second delay in doing it. Free headers in our box for RVP and Rio? I don't think our central defenders are quick enough and/or smart enough to make zonal marking work, and I can't help but wonder if we'd be better off getting them to man-mark. Better two go for the same ball rather than like yesterday, nobody. Man to man marking works if the markers are up to it and get tight and stay tight. I suspect it's the fact that we don't that Adkins has gone for the other option. Hoiveldt has to be the main ball winner with short and long options. Fonte had the short option and was worrying about VP rather than going for the ball. Fonte in particular is a poor challenger and mainly pushes or holds rather than going for the ball. I don't think he will figure much longer if Yoshida is up to it. I think Adkins is right but needs a keeper to be active and yet again KD isn't the answer. I have seen Gazzaniga a few times now and I like the positive way he takes up position in the centre of the six yd box letting everybody know he is going for it, all 6' 5" of him, so look out or get a big fist in the ear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfc4prem Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 Better two go for the same ball rather than like yesterday, nobody. Man to man marking works if the markers are up to it and get tight and stay tight. I suspect it's the fact that we don't that Adkins has gone for the other option. Hoiveldt has to be the main ball winner with short and long options. Fonte had the short option and was worrying about VP rather than going for the ball. Fonte in particular is a poor challenger and mainly pushes or holds rather than going for the ball. I don't think he will figure much longer if Yoshida is up to it. I think Adkins is right but needs a keeper to be active and yet again KD isn't the answer. I have seen Gazzaniga a few times now and I like the positive way he takes up position in the centre of the six yd box letting everybody know he is going for it, all 6' 5" of him, so look out or get a big fist in the ear. Gazza has already looked undecisive with crosses. He always comes for them; rarely gets them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 Gazza has already looked undecisive with crosses. He always comes for them; rarely gets them. If he always goes for them (but rarely gets them) that's not being indecisive, that's just being pretty poor at catching crosses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 It's always better to come for the ball, especially if you let everybody know you're coming. It gives the attacker something to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 (edited) Gazza has already looked undecisive with crosses. He always comes for them; rarely gets them. Well Davis is decisive he stays rooted to the line and that doesn't work either. If you saw the same matches I did we didn't concede from any crosses with Gazzaniga in goal. Edited 3 September, 2012 by derry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Bones Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 Lets face facts, we have been given a horrendous opening to our new premiership life, quite a few CB partnerships are going to struggle against the top four or five clubs in this league. A very good point. We have been challenged - I guess it's all about how quick our defense learns to adapt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 It's always better to come for the ball, especially if you let everybody know you're coming. It gives the attacker something to think about. Precisely, and reinforces the under pressure defenders. Standing on the bloody line helps nobody but in Davis's case understandable because coming off the line late doesn't work. Gazzaniga takes up a great position and will get better as an understanding with defenders develop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaSaint Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 Lets face facts, we have been given a horrendous opening to our new premiership life, quite a few CB partnerships are going to struggle against the top four or five clubs in this league. That said I have always felt that JF would be a bit of an Achilles heel should we get promoted. For me was a good championship player when we signed him, was great in L1, helped get us promoted, but not good enough for this level. Less said about Fox imho. Yes, that's a really good point that we shouldn't lose sight of. This season, at least, we are not competing with the United's and City's of the division but with those from about tenth place down. Sure, the Wigan result was a real disappointment but they're not the crap team that many seem to think they are - as their 23 out of 33 points at the end of last season demonstrated. We were undone yesterday by a guy who cost 24 million and another guy with 66 appearances for England. We sure as hell won't encounter that kind of quality every week. Yes, we have some serious weaknesses that should have been addressed in the window, but so do other teams that really are our competition. One of the biggest challenges Nigel faces is figuring out who to leave out of the starting midfield line-up, which is a really nice problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 the sooner the arsenal game is out of the way the better......Villa game will hold a great deal of pressure on it....lets say we win that, I bet we are still well within touching distant of mid table Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 the sooner the arsenal game is out of the way the better......Villa game will hold a great deal of pressure on it....lets say we win that, I bet we are still well within touching distant of mid table We definitely will be. A season is hardly ever defined by the first 10 games. This time last year I remember the "experts" in the media even mentioning a possible relegation battle for Arsenal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissyboy31 Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 Without going through the entire thread. The reason we lost the game IMO was that their substitutions improved their team, whereas ours weakened ours. Scholes changed the game and so did taking off Lambert allowing Ferdinand and Vidic to play an extra 10 yards up the field. I can see why Lallana and Puncheon were taken off because they had run themselves into the ground but I would have changed them with Lee and Mayuka on the flanks giving us extra pace both going forward and chasing back. That said while they were on the pitch the front six were excellent and if they can scare the sh!t of Manure, then they will score plenty against lesser teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 still baffled by the subs...and the line up on the subs bench... Lee Rodriguez Guly Mayuka yet no one to replace the middle 3.....bizarre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingeletiss Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 still baffled by the subs...and the line up on the subs bench... Lee Rodriguez Guly Mayuka yet no one to replace the middle 3.....bizarre Not even going to quantify that, if you can't see the answer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 still baffled by the subs...and the line up on the subs bench... Lee Rodriguez Guly Mayuka yet no one to replace the middle 3.....bizarre Maybe the links with Biglia were serious then, though lots on here don't think we need another CM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 Would have taken 2-3 beforehand, but I'm genuinely miffed with that result now. Like others have said, subs didn't work out. Blooming annoyed that we came out of that with nowt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 Haha that's fantastic. So even Hooiveld's **** ups are Fonte's fault! Ah so I'm not sh*t at football. its the rest of the players faults! Cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hasper57saint Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 Say what you will but Adkins lost us the game (as he did against Wigan).For Manures second and third only ONE Manc was in their half, the keeper! Why Oh Why don't we put someone up in the centre circle when we are defending corners? Ferdinand and Vidic would never get back to catch Mayuka or even Guly, and Ricky would have marked their Tall players at any corner, why didn't Jay Rod? JR on the left wing? You must be joking Mr.Adkins. He's 6'2"(?) yet the little 'speed merchant' was put in the middle. Eight minutes to go, 2 - 1 up and we lose 2 - 3.Lessons to be learned? To bl..dy true there are!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stepgar Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 You can look at it two ways: if we were man markingFonte was nowhere near his man in which case a simple learning point "get tighter to your man when defending corners. Or: zonal Marking he was way too slow to react to the ball coming from the corner in which case your position was poor. Either way goal conceded. I don think that zonal defending is the way forward you need to be very reactive to where the ball goes and I think that puts you on the back foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 On that penalty weren't it exactly the same as the one we didn't get against City? Big club bias! Exactly. The JH tackle was clean as a whistle, all the ball and just caught RVP who milked it. Was identical to the Lescott-JRod tackle which wasn't even talked about. I don't understand how the Jos tackle was described as 'stone wall' by BBC yet Lescott's didn't even make it into their report. Mike Dean was doing all he could to even up our dominance over UTD and perhaps we shouldn't have given him the chance to give a pen (how dare we touch RVP in the box) but still he gave them everything but we best get used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
positivepete Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 Great game, gutted we lost. Rather watch that than the sterile football under Strachan. Reminds me of the Nichol era, great to watch, we will be fine, enjoy the ride, the game is about goals after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the saint in winchester Posted 3 September, 2012 Share Posted 3 September, 2012 still baffled by the subs...and the line up on the subs bench... Lee Rodriguez Guly Mayuka yet no one to replace the middle 3.....bizarre Yes, I had the same reaction on seeing the subs bench. This was a game we were likely to need fresh defenders for, yet the bench was loaded up with spare attackers. This is the first time I have been concerned with Adkins' game plan. I hope for a more balanced bench in future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Saint Posted 4 September, 2012 Share Posted 4 September, 2012 I spoke to a Past President of Saints, a Past Secretary of Saints and a Past Director of Saints today. They all felt that the substitutes were a big mistake and cost us the game. All three are great supporters of Adkins so not sour grapes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 5 September, 2012 Share Posted 5 September, 2012 Well Davis is decisive he stays rooted to the line and that doesn't work either. If you saw the same matches I did we didn't concede from any crosses with Gazzaniga in goal.Derry you wanted us to go for that clown who plays for Bolton. Thank god we didnt. Yu have always had a agenda against KD and come out when things are not right. KD has been a superb loyal servant of the club and his time will come to change but Gazza is not the finished article yet. Remember paul Smith , Blayney etc and the calls for Niemi to be dropped in favour as they were better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted 5 September, 2012 Share Posted 5 September, 2012 I spoke to a Past President of Saints, a Past Secretary of Saints and a Past Director of Saints today. They all felt that the substitutes were a big mistake and cost us the game. All three are great supporters of Adkins so not sour grapes. I think everybody thinks that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 5 September, 2012 Share Posted 5 September, 2012 Derry you wanted us to go for that clown who plays for Bolton. Thank god we didnt. Yu have always had a agenda against KD and come out when things are not right. KD has been a superb loyal servant of the club and his time will come to change but Gazza is not the finished article yet. Remember paul Smith , Blayney etc and the calls for Niemi to be dropped in favour as they were better? Nick you are totally blinkered. I saw Bogdan once and he looked decent I just mentioned his name, I've seen Davis well over a hundred times. Good shotstopper, Flaps at the ball, poor communicator, poor on crosses, poor on distribution, and now looking like a rabbit in the headlights. We didn't buy Gazzaniga without the intention of putting him in if necessary. It could be getting very close to being necessary. Davis if he was unlucky could break an arm tomorrow so Gazzaniga would be the only goalkeeper. A free agent, not much choice there, would be the only option unless a dispensation on a loan was given by the PL. I've never rated Davis apart from his shot stopping but even that is now not enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 5 September, 2012 Share Posted 5 September, 2012 Nick you are totally blinkered. I saw Bogdan once and he looked decent I just mentioned his name, I've seen Davis well over a hundred times. Good shotstopper, Flaps at the ball, poor communicator, poor on crosses, poor on distribution, and now looking like a rabbit in the headlights. We didn't buy Gazzaniga without the intention of putting him in if necessary. It could be getting very close to being necessary. Davis if he was unlucky could break an arm tomorrow so Gazzaniga would be the only goalkeeper. A free agent, not much choice there, would be the only option unless a dispensation on a loan was given by the PL. I've never rated Davis apart from his shot stopping but even that is now not enough. Agreed, I've been saying his for some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 5 September, 2012 Share Posted 5 September, 2012 (edited) Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons a bit, I've done a bit of analysis of the passage of play from the first Saints substitutions until the 3rd Man U goal, just to see if there were any obvious trends... boy were there. Of 38 possessions : 18 unsuccessful high passes (inc corners and free kicks) 4 successful high passes 8 successful low passes 5 unsuccessful low passes 3 efforts on goal, all off target or blocked In addition to that, of the high passes that were successful, one was an accidental slice to Clyne by Fonte, one was a hoof by Fox which was deflected to Mayuka, one was a goal kick which was deflected by Rodriguez back to Hooiveld and back to Kelvin, and the other was a kick from Kelvin which Rodriguez controlled and kept possession (only for Fox to whack the ball up the pitch with the next kick). So precisely ZERO of our air passes were successful and ALL of them led to Man U regaining possession within one pass. In that time frame, we also made 9 what I'd call "unforced errors" on the ball, i.e. hacks, slices, passes off the pitch under no pressure. 3 by Steven Davis, 3 by Jose Fonte, and 1 each by Lallana (whacking it against the ref and losing possession) and Hooiveld (poor defensive header under no pressure). Mayuka was the target for 13 passes : 1 successful high pass (which took a deflection on the way) 6 unsuccessful high passes 3 successful low passes 2 unsuccessful low passes What does this lot tell you ? Well, apart from me having too much time spare when the wife goes out, it tells you that we gave the ball away on 23 of 38 passes, 18 of which were long balls, and 6 of which went to Mayuka in the air. Conversely, we kept the ball from 8/13 low passes, 3 of which went to Mayuka on the ground. It also tells us that Paul Scholes only had the chance to do ANYTHING because we constantly launched the ball at a short bloke, and that Fonte and S Davis were probably pretty tired judging by the errors they made. SOMEONE should have been screaming at them to try and play it out through midfield, but either we were too tired, or too panicked to do it, we gave the ball away cheaply, and eventually got punished for it. PS my statistical logging is by no means professional, so there's probably a bit of variation, one or two passes here or there unlogged. I switched off after the winning goal. But I did also notice Scholes ambled around on the half way line pinging passes to absolutely no effect at all until Hernandez came on, and we did go from competent to crummy when the first changes happened, mainly because we didn't have a 6 footer to win the high balls. Suppose I should go back and check how many hoofs we did before that when Lambert was on, but bit late now... Edited 5 September, 2012 by The9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 5 September, 2012 Share Posted 5 September, 2012 It also tells us that Paul Scholes only had the chance to do ANYTHING because we constantly launched the ball at a short bloke, and that Fonte and S Davis were probably pretty tired judging by the errors they made. SOMEONE should have been screaming at them to try and play it out through midfield, but either we were too tired, or too panicked to do it, we gave the ball away cheaply, and eventually got punished for it. PS my statistical logging is by no means professional, so there's probably a bit of variation, one or two passes here or there unlogged. I switched off after the winning goal. But I did also notice Scholes ambled around on the half way line pinging passes to absolutely no effect at all until Hernandez came on, and we did go from competent to crummy when the first changes happened, mainly because we didn't have a 6 footer to win the high balls. Suppose I should go back and check how many hoofs we did before that when Lambert was on, but bit late now... Interesting, of course the official story is that the brilliant Paul Scholes was introduced by Fergie and he dramatically changed the game. That's what I read anyway in several places. Your version tallies much more closely with what I saw with my own eyes from Row U. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 5 September, 2012 Share Posted 5 September, 2012 I spoke to a Past President of Saints, a Past Secretary of Saints and a Past Director of Saints today. They all felt that the substitutes were a big mistake and cost us the game. All three are great supporters of Adkins so not sour grapes. Do you mean the substitutes or the substitutions? I don't think any of the substitutes can be directly accused of costing us the game, but the substitutions, or more to the point the timing of them, all so close together definitely did. I still cannot comprehend why NA withdrew AL, even if he was a bit knackered (and frankly he didn't look it), so what he had nearly 2 weeks to get over it. He is the skipper and was having an inspirational game. Similarly Punch. Replacing RL with J-Rod would have made some sense, Rickie did look whacked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 5 September, 2012 Share Posted 5 September, 2012 Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons a bit, I've done a bit of analysis of the passage of play from the first Saints substitutions until the 3rd Man U goal, just to see if there were any obvious trends... boy were there. Of 38 possessions : 18 unsuccessful high passes (inc corners and free kicks) 4 successful high passes 8 successful low passes 5 unsuccessful low passes 3 efforts on goal, all off target or blocked In addition to that, of the high passes that were successful, one was an accidental slice to Clyne by Fonte, one was a hoof by Fox which was deflected to Mayuka, one was a goal kick which was deflected by Rodriguez back to Hooiveld and back to Kelvin, and the other was a kick from Kelvin which Rodriguez controlled and kept possession (only for Fox to whack the ball up the pitch with the next kick). So precisely ZERO of our air passes were successful and ALL of them led to Man U regaining possession within one pass. In that time frame, we also made 9 what I'd call "unforced errors" on the ball, i.e. hacks, slices, passes off the pitch under no pressure. 3 by Steven Davis, 3 by Jose Fonte, and 1 each by Lallana (whacking it against the ref and losing possession) and Hooiveld (poor defensive header under no pressure). Mayuka was the target for 13 passes : 1 successful high pass (which took a deflection on the way) 6 unsuccessful high passes 3 successful low passes 2 unsuccessful low passes What does this lot tell you ? Well, apart from me having too much time spare when the wife goes out, it tells you that we gave the ball away on 23 of 38 passes, 18 of which were long balls, and 6 of which went to Mayuka in the air. Conversely, we kept the ball from 8/13 low passes, 3 of which went to Mayuka on the ground. It also tells us that Paul Scholes only had the chance to do ANYTHING because we constantly launched the ball at a short bloke, and that Fonte and S Davis were probably pretty tired judging by the errors they made. SOMEONE should have been screaming at them to try and play it out through midfield, but either we were too tired, or too panicked to do it, we gave the ball away cheaply, and eventually got punished for it. PS my statistical logging is by no means professional, so there's probably a bit of variation, one or two passes here or there unlogged. I switched off after the winning goal. But I did also notice Scholes ambled around on the half way line pinging passes to absolutely no effect at all until Hernandez came on, and we did go from competent to crummy when the first changes happened, mainly because we didn't have a 6 footer to win the high balls. Suppose I should go back and check how many hoofs we did before that when Lambert was on, but bit late now... I also watched the game back and although didn't do the statistical analysis you've done, came to the same conclusions. Scholes had very little effect when he first came on and even their goals at the end can't really be attributed to him too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 5 September, 2012 Share Posted 5 September, 2012 Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons a bit, I've done a bit of analysis of the passage of play from the first Saints substitutions until the 3rd Man U goal, just to see if there were any obvious trends... boy were there. Of 38 possessions : 18 unsuccessful high passes (inc corners and free kicks) 4 successful high passes 8 successful low passes 5 unsuccessful low passes 3 efforts on goal, all off target or blocked In addition to that, of the high passes that were successful, one was an accidental slice to Clyne by Fonte, one was a hoof by Fox which was deflected to Mayuka, one was a goal kick which was deflected by Rodriguez back to Hooiveld and back to Kelvin, and the other was a kick from Kelvin which Rodriguez controlled and kept possession (only for Fox to whack the ball up the pitch with the next kick). So precisely ZERO of our air passes were successful and ALL of them led to Man U regaining possession within one pass. In that time frame, we also made 9 what I'd call "unforced errors" on the ball, i.e. hacks, slices, passes off the pitch under no pressure. 3 by Steven Davis, 3 by Jose Fonte, and 1 each by Lallana (whacking it against the ref and losing possession) and Hooiveld (poor defensive header under no pressure). Mayuka was the target for 13 passes : 1 successful high pass (which took a deflection on the way) 6 unsuccessful high passes 3 successful low passes 2 unsuccessful low passes What does this lot tell you ? Well, apart from me having too much time spare when the wife goes out, it tells you that we gave the ball away on 23 of 38 passes, 18 of which were long balls, and 6 of which went to Mayuka in the air. Conversely, we kept the ball from 8/13 low passes, 3 of which went to Mayuka on the ground. It also tells us that Paul Scholes only had the chance to do ANYTHING because we constantly launched the ball at a short bloke, and that Fonte and S Davis were probably pretty tired judging by the errors they made. SOMEONE should have been screaming at them to try and play it out through midfield, but either we were too tired, or too panicked to do it, we gave the ball away cheaply, and eventually got punished for it. PS my statistical logging is by no means professional, so there's probably a bit of variation, one or two passes here or there unlogged. I switched off after the winning goal. But I did also notice Scholes ambled around on the half way line pinging passes to absolutely no effect at all until Hernandez came on, and we did go from competent to crummy when the first changes happened, mainly because we didn't have a 6 footer to win the high balls. Suppose I should go back and check how many hoofs we did before that when Lambert was on, but bit late now... Do you have any idea how many high passes were made to Rodriguez? The reasoning for putting on the wing was to exploit his height advantage against Rafael which makes sense on one level. Wonder if we actually did or attempted this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 6 September, 2012 Share Posted 6 September, 2012 Nick you are totally blinkered. I saw Bogdan once and he looked decent I just mentioned his name, I've seen Davis well over a hundred times. Good shotstopper, Flaps at the ball, poor communicator, poor on crosses, poor on distribution, and now looking like a rabbit in the headlights. We didn't buy Gazzaniga without the intention of putting him in if necessary. It could be getting very close to being necessary. Davis if he was unlucky could break an arm tomorrow so Gazzaniga would be the only goalkeeper. A free agent, not much choice there, would be the only option unless a dispensation on a loan was given by the PL. I've never rated Davis apart from his shot stopping but even that is now not enough.Derry Iam not blinkered, I have said on here that KD looks less confident this season, but that does not mean the 2nd choice is better. People blame KD for a lot ofr goals when he patently was not to blame sunday. I watch the other keepers in the league and few come out and take the ball and their distribution is not that hot either. Lindegaard was poor Sunday IMO. If KD had let in RL's header we would have loads of dinlos saying he should have come and caught the ball. KD is getting near the end of his days but some would have had him gone 3 seasons ago, and we may well have not got promotion. There were countless times where he saved us points, Leeds away being a minimum of 2. That was priceless at the end of the season. i also want what is best for the club and sentiment cannot be allowed to effect us,we need another keeper and I dearly hope this Gazza fella is a good replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baird of the land Posted 6 September, 2012 Share Posted 6 September, 2012 Some delicious play going forward. Sneiderlin looks made to play in prem. Lambert, puncheon, Lallana, Ward-Prowse, S Davis, Clyne all excellent. Unfortunately the 2 cb's don't fill me with confidence, Fox was weak defensively and davis looks well out of his depth in the premier league. Really can't see anything but a long hard relegation battle as in the premier league if you can't defend you are in serious trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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