Miltonroader07 Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 Players dont become bad overnight or do we just think they are not good enough for the prem. Sometime go na said that players that worked to get us to the prem (and those two grafted ) for the cause deserve their chance. Seems strange that he then off loaded harding as i think he is a great player, bit like dennis without the head butt maybe we are just saying that hoos and fonte need cover, not against that idea but as i said they have not become not good enough over night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 Hooiveld, certainly not but Fonte looks to be struggling a little, he seemed quite lightweight last year and it could be argued that he was at fault for both goals on Sunday. Regardless of this, our only fall back is Danny Seaborne. We need far more strength in depth in this position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born In The 80s Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 The centre half depth chart goes as follows... 1 - Hooiveld 2 - Fonte 3 - Seaborne (not played in over a year, and certainly not prem class) 4 - Richardson (a RB who has barely played a game at CB) 5 - Stephens *****ested kid) In the premier league you need a minimum of 4 capable CBs just to get through the season. Forwards in this league are on a different planet to the championship, in terms of speed, ability, strength and perhaps most importantly, intelligence. Strikers know how to con refs into getting defenders yellow/red cards and the way Hoovield and in particular Fonte play, they are both going to pick up a lot of cards. That's not even mentioned potential of injury... CB is such a crucial position i believe we need another 2 in before the end of the window. This should be priority even ahead of signing Ramirez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 Hooiveld, no. Fonte was at times out of his depth last season, and so far this season looks incredibly dodgy. Imo Seaborne shouldnt even be playing pro football anymore after such a severe head injury. As has been said, we need 2 CBs urgently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lets B Avenue Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 Hooiveld, no. Fonte was at times out of his depth last season, and so far this season looks incredibly dodgy. Imo Seaborne shouldnt even be playing pro football anymore after such a severe head injury. As has been said, we need 2 CBs urgently. Not excusing Saturday's performance, but I was at The Etihad and thought he was our MOM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
once_bitterne Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 They may not become bad overnight but neither do they become PL level players overnight. Both are Championship level imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supersubpuckett Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 fonte looked out of his depth last season when we played against decent strikers, so he's going to get ripped to shreds this time (the man u game could be horrible). A palace supporting mate laughed when I told him JF was still a first choice CB. I reckon we need 3 CBs - I'm amazed we haven't seemingly prioritised sorting ourselves out with a decent defence over buying up more strikers. Oh well, in nige we trust....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 Imo Seaborne shouldnt even be playing pro football anymore after such a severe head injury. Do you have medical qualifications and have you seen Dan Seaborne and examined his injury? If not, that is a very odd statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Diamond Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 I gave up on Lee Hoos in about 2007. Shocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DT Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 Their unsuitability to the Prem should have been picked up in close season, as it was pretty obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
once_bitterne Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 Do you have medical qualifications and have you seen Dan Seaborne and examined his injury? If not, that is a very odd statement. Alps is a very odd person though. His main passion is a football team he hates everything about. I've said from day one that he's a manic depressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalek2003 Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 It was picked up but nothing was done about it, which is very strange Their unsuitability to the Prem should have been picked up in close season, as it was pretty obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaSaint Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 Do you have medical qualifications and have you seen Dan Seaborne and examined his injury? If not, that is a very odd statement. Not necessarily, MLG - and he was just stating his opinion. The long term affects of serious head injuries have been in the news a lot over here, amidst revelations (from autopsies) that severe damage can go undetected and can build up over time. And that doesn't even relate to sports in which frequent heading is a characteristic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 It was picked up but nothing was done about it, which is very strange Ok troll boy, how do you know that there hasn't been action behind the scenes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalek2003 Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 Alps is a very odd person though. His main passion is a football team he hates everything about. I've said from day one that he's a manic depressive. Wrong. Alpine has a passion for Saints, that is the problem. He cares too much, like most supporters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalek2003 Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 Ok troll boy, how do you know that there hasn't been action behind the scenes? Just a guess, you tell me Mr 'Know it All' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 Just a guess, you tell me Mr 'Know it All' Exactly, you have no idea. So such statements only serve one purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lets B Avenue Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 Exactly, you have no idea. So such statements only serve one purpose. And you bit. More fool you. Sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalek2003 Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 OK, so I am wrong ? The CB was not picked up. The club has dealt with the problem. The evidence of a successful solution to the problem is there for all to see. Happy now Colinjb ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 And you bit. More fool you. Sadly. It's just amazing how such blatant trolling is permitted. Statments that cannot be proven and posted purely to provoke a reaction, the very definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 It's just amazing how such blatant trolling is permitted. the MODS don't want to know....they are asked time and time again and the question is just ignored Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 Imo Seaborne shouldnt even be playing pro football anymore after such a severe head injury. Do you have medical qualifications and have you seen Dan Seaborne and examined his injury? If not, that is a very odd statement. Not necessarily, MLG - and he was just stating his opinion. The long term affects of serious head injuries have been in the news a lot over here, amidst revelations (from autopsies) that severe damage can go undetected and can build up over time. And that doesn't even relate to sports in which frequent heading is a characteristic. An opinion based on no medical qualifications and not seeing the patient. The details of Seaborne's injury were never revealed, all we know is that it was a head injury. Alpine is in no position to make such a statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaSaint Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 An opinion based on no medical qualifications and not seeing the patient. The details of Seaborne's injury were never revealed. All we know is that it was a head injury. I'm not arguing those points, just the fact that we're learning more and more about serious head injuries and the fact that they can be a lot worse than doctors thought at the time. Based on that, rather than any medical competence, I think Alpine has voiced a valid opinion - whether you and others agree with it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lets B Avenue Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 An opinion based on no medical qualifications and not seeing the patient. The details of Seaborne's injury were never revealed, all we know is that it was a head injury. Alpine is in no position to make such a statement. I am not medically qualified either. But after watching him at Stevenage, I can confirm that it hasn't made him a better footballer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 I am not medically qualified either. But after watching him at Stevenage, I can confirm that it hasn't made him a better footballer. Pah, what do you know? Are you a qualified football coach? If not then you're in no position to make such a statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 I'm not arguing those points, just the fact that we're learning more and more about serious head injuries and the fact that they can be a lot worse than doctors thought at the time. Based on that, rather than any medical competence, I think Alpine has voiced a valid opinion - whether you and others agree with it or not. Clearly not that severe if the medical opinion of those that have seen Seaborne are happy for him to continue playing. Alpine however from his house in Austria, having not seen Seaborne and not having any knowledge of his actual injury has deemed him unsuitable to ever play again. It is not a "valid opinion", it is nonsense of a man without medical qualifications that hasn't seen the patient or aware of the actual injury sustained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lets B Avenue Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 Pah, what do you know? Are you a qualified football coach? If not then you're in no position to make such a statement. Actually......... Oh no. Its cricket I've done. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Fan CaM Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 As others have said, it's not a case of 'giving up' as such. It's quite clear that CB has been a significant area for improvement since before the end of the Championship season, let alone now the quality of strikers is so much greater. Simple fact is Fonte and Fox (even possibly Jos) think and act too slow for this league and at best should be 2nd choice players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPTCount Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 both have thier flaws imo, our three weakest positions now are gk and 2 x cb and please ladies, put the handbags down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxstone Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 No doubt we need additional strength there.. But I certainly have not given up on Jos and Jose, the latter I thought was second only to Clyne as MOTM at the Etihad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 Players dont become bad overnight or do we just think they are not good enough for the prem. Sometime go na said that players that worked to get us to the prem (and those two grafted ) for the cause deserve their chance. Seems strange that he then off loaded harding as i think he is a great player, bit like dennis without the head butt maybe we are just saying that hoos and fonte need cover, not against that idea but as i said they have not become not good enough over night Neither are bad players, they're just playing against better players. I continue to be amazed that some people think being at the same standard as their best in the Championship is automatically going to be good enough to win matches in the Premier League. Plenty of people have said "look at the rubbish in the bottom half, they're not much better than the top Championship sides" but with a couple of exceptions they basically are. It's a meritocracy, the best teams are in the top division and the quality of players needed to compete over the course of a season needs to be higher. Add to that the wages available for the best players in the world and the attraction of being in the Prem compared to Championship and the players attracted to the League are going to be that much better. As for "are we saying we need cover"? No, mainly because we never sign cover, we always sign to improve the starting XI. It continues to bewilder me that anyone still thinks this after 3 years of signing starters and shipping the replaced players out. You don't have to be zooming up the leagues to evolve the side, but without that... well, how many current League One players from any one team would anyone expect to start in the Prem at the moment ? We still have plenty, but they're now on the fringes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaSaint Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 Clearly not that severe if the medical opinion of those that have seen Seaborne are happy for him to continue playing. Alpine however from his house in Austria, having not seen Seaborne and not having any knowledge of his actual injury has deemed him unsuitable to ever play again. It is not a "valid opinion", it is nonsense of a man without medical qualifications that hasn't seen the patient or aware of the actual injury sustained. As I said, I'm not arguing with your point that Alpine isn't very well placed to venture a medical opinion. Nor am I and nor are you. What I'm offering is the perspective that they are discovering, over here (NFL and NHL), that concussions can do a lot more damage than the medical profession recognized at the time, and that this damage accumulates with further concussions. These things have often only been discovered post mortem. I think Seaborne's injury was more than just a concussion, and for him to keep playing and heading the ball MAY be doing more harm than he (or others) recognize. The revelations over here have lead to a much higher level of caution and numerous premature retirements. From the player's perspective it's all about personal wellbeing. From the club's perspective, it's all about legal liability. I'm taking his side in this because he's just offering his opinion - and because I think he might be "inadvertently right." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 As I said, I'm not arguing with your point that Alpine isn't very well placed to venture a medical opinion. Nor am I and nor are you. What I'm offering is the perspective that they are discovering, over here (NFL and NHL), that concussions can do a lot more damage than the medical profession recognized at the time, and that this damage accumulates with further concussions. These things have often only been discovered post mortem. I think Seaborne's injury was more than just a concussion, and for him to keep playing and heading the ball MAY be doing more harm than he (or others) recognize. The revelations over here have lead to a much higher level of caution and numerous premature retirements. From the player's perspective it's all about personal wellbeing. From the club's perspective, it's all about legal liability. I'm taking his side in this because he's just offering his opinion - and because I think he might be "inadvertently right." I blame Chris Benoit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toe_punt Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 There are worse CBs in the Prem than Jos. On his offensive prowess alone he's worth a spot. What did he score in the league last year? 8? Fonte on the other hand was playing above his capabilities last year and it showed. This year I'm afraid he will be a liability. Thankfully we have a new CB in town as of today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 Not given up on them. The pair of them will hopefully benefit from Yoshida joining. No competition has led to complacency IMO. Both are solid and love the goals they've scored for us. Silly mistakes have been made though. Perhaps the fear of getting dropped is what they need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 Hooiveld, certainly not but Fonte looks to be struggling a little, he seemed quite lightweight last year and it could be argued that he was at fault for both goals on Sunday. Regardless of this, our only fall back is Danny Seaborne. We need far more strength in depth in this position. agree with that one Colin ...I think Jos passes muster but (sadly) althoiugh he has skill.... Fonte's lack of pace is frightening to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 Do you have medical qualifications and have you seen Dan Seaborne and examined his injury? If not, that is a very odd statement. Its my intuition. I would be harassing my son non-stop if he were in Seabornes shoes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 Players dont become bad overnight or do we just think they are not good enough for the prem. Sometime go na said that players that worked to get us to the prem (and those two grafted ) for the cause deserve their chance. Seems strange that he then off loaded harding as i think he is a great player, bit like dennis without the head butt maybe we are just saying that hoos and fonte need cover, not against that idea but as i said they have not become not good enough over night That's where you're going wrong IMO. Harding is not a great player, he is a competant Championship player. There is nothing wrong with that but Harding will never be Premier League standard. Some players will make the step up, others wont. It would be foolish not to strengthen are options in any area of the team in the hope that ALL our Championship defenders are actually Premier League quality. It's just amazing how such blatant trolling is permitted. Statments that cannot be proven and posted purely to provoke a reaction, the very definition. What you are doing is crying to mummy about how the nasty dog bites you, whilst you stand their waving your pork sword in it's face. You know exactly what is going on and still feel the need to entertain this muppet with a response. Please stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 (edited) I have faith in both. Fonte didn't look out of his depth last season IMO, he had a below par spell, which coincided with a broken toe, but overall did well. At times he was outstanding. He has done OK this season for me despite the error on Saturday. I didn't see many baying for Jos' blood when he clumsily fouled tevez. Fans on here seem to make their minds up about players and no matter what they do on a weekly basis that overiding opinion shapes their assessment. The guy dived in a lot 2 season ago and it worked well in league 1 as he dominated, he dived in less in the championship having been caught a couple of times he learned his lesson. If he doesn't dive in at all this season he'll be fine. I'm not sure what fans are expected of this new guy but if we concede any goals ever then basically he's ****ed. Edited 30 August, 2012 by Chez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNSUN Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 Fonte's been making mistakes for a while now. He's still a good squad CB but I'd be much more comfortable bringing in better. Jos is immense, and I have no concerns with him. Hopefully Yoshida will give them a run for their money, and potentially make them play even better in order to keep their place, but I still think we have another CB on the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raging Bull Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 I had an issue with Fonte early last year and my concerns haven't changed, he has a tendency to dilly dally or drop everything and freak out. Jos on the other hand will be fine, and lets not forget, he scores a few too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 An opinion based on no medical qualifications and not seeing the patient. The details of Seaborne's injury were never revealed, all we know is that it was a head injury. Alpine is in no position to make such a statement. ...lol....and so describes everyone of his foolish posts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlakeySFC Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 I've given up on Fonte, thought he was quality in League 1, looked dodgy at times in the Championship and now we're in the Prem he looks even dodgier. Hooiveld - Yoshida is now my preferred CB pairing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint-crinny Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 Think Fonte is always liable to make a mistake and that gets brutally exposed in the Prem. Jos is less likely to make an error but is also worryingly slow - hopefully Yoshida has some pace and him and Jos might complement well. Fox is of equal concern as the centre back position if not more - he always takes too long, got away with it last year. He needs to sharpen up seriously quickly and he looks generally nervy. To get caught from the kick-off against Wigan was mental - he could quite easily have picked up an injury there too, and it would have been completely his fault. Would like him to come good as he can deliver a great cross, but does he know he is allowed to get past the midfield and whip in some of the dangerous balls that we know he can produce? A really hesitant display against Wigan, maybe he is lacking confidence after the error at City, which was woeful, but he was looking shaky in that game well before that. Hope he can step up, as i do think there could be a good Prem player, but at the moment missing out on Buttner looks a shame - bet he plays and belts one in on Sunday as well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 Think Fonte is always liable to make a mistake and that gets brutally exposed in the Prem. Jos is less likely to make an error but is also worryingly slow - hopefully Yoshida has some pace and him and Jos might complement well. Fox is of equal concern as the centre back position if not more - he always takes too long, got away with it last year. He needs to sharpen up seriously quickly and he looks generally nervy. To get caught from the kick-off against Wigan was mental - he could quite easily have picked up an injury there too, and it would have been completely his fault. Would like him to come good as he can deliver a great cross, but does he know he is allowed to get past the midfield and whip in some of the dangerous balls that we know he can produce? A really hesitant display against Wigan, maybe he is lacking confidence after the error at City, which was woeful, but he was looking shaky in that game well before that. Hope he can step up, as i do think there could be a good Prem player, but at the moment missing out on Buttner looks a shame - bet he plays and belts one in on Sunday as well! He actually started doing that in pre-season and even tried it once at the Etihad. On Saturday, not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint-crinny Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 He actually started doing that in pre-season and even tried it once at the Etihad. On Saturday, not so much. Just frustrating to watch as he has got the quality - the goals that he set up for Scotland recently showed that. Not sure if he can improve defensively though - time will tell as my feeling is we wont be signing a left back. He needs to step - although the same can be said for a lot of the players after the Wigan game, probably opened everyone's eyes to the challenge ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 Clearly not that severe if the medical opinion of those that have seen Seaborne are happy for him to continue playing. Alpine however from his house in Austria, having not seen Seaborne and not having any knowledge of his actual injury has deemed him unsuitable to ever play again. It is not a "valid opinion", it is nonsense of a man without medical qualifications that hasn't seen the patient or aware of the actual injury sustained. Wow, this is the first time I have been the focus of that pedant MLG getting on his high horse - its a very strange experience. I've admitted I am not a head trauma expert. I also agree that the nature of the injury isnt in the public domain. But the poor sod was on a life support machine with a "serious head injury" and he is in a profession where is head is going to take some pretty high kinetic energy impacts. Not just from a ball, there is always a risk of clashing heads. My intuition tells me that having had such an injury and with so little still known about the brain and head trauma, that going back into professional football is a bad idea that could end in tears. Marc Vivien Foe is one example of someone considered 100% fit suddenly dropping dead on the pitch, a feat Fabrice Muamba nearly repeated. Up until then both were considered to have perfectly normal functioning hearts. Once more, my gut feeling tells me Seaborne back in professional football is just so wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNSUN Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 Once more, my gut feeling tells me Seaborne back in professional football is just so wrong... Perhaps the bang on the bonce knocked some talent into him. Like foreign accent syndrome, he may have Paulo Maldini syndrome. (We can but hope.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 30 August, 2012 Share Posted 30 August, 2012 I have faith in both. Fonte didn't look out of his depth last season IMO, he had a below par spell, which coincided with a broken toe, but overall did well. At times he was outstanding. He has done OK this season for me despite the error on Saturday. I didn't see many baying for Jos' blood when he clumsily fouled tevez. Fans on here seem to make their minds up about players and no matter what they do on a weekly basis that overiding opinion shapes their assessment. The guy dived in a lot 2 season ago and it worked well in league 1 as he dominated, he dived in less in the championship having been caught a couple of times he learned his lesson. If he doesn't dive in at all this season he'll be fine. I'm not sure what fans are expected of this new guy but if we concede any goals ever then basically he's ****ed. Good post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmacian_saint Posted 31 August, 2012 Share Posted 31 August, 2012 I see people remember what was a stupid thrown in that left our defender under pressure when 0-1 down against Wigan but forget a schoolboy penalty that could've put us 0-1 down within 15 minutes of our PL debut (in a game where that player was praised by some and the other who was one of the best in the team that day recieved the typical "he's not up for it"), and shall we not forget about the staticness of good old Jos as both Nasri and Macheda's (correct me if wrong) passes drove inches past him. They also forget about players being in the captain's list almost since they arrived, Or 7 league goals (including a promotion decider) in the season that ignited it all. Or being voted best players in that season. Or being a key part in the 2 decisive goals that shook off the fear from the squad in the most uncertain stage of last season. Football really is an unfair game. Not saying Hooiveld is bad or Fonte is actually amazing, just think that there's more into our defeats and bad moments than the CBs being at fault. They've become a bit of a scapegoat to be honest, especially José. I honestly feel there's no difference between them, hopefully Yoshida will bring some quality in but if results keep not coming our way will we crucify him too? I'm pretty aware that it is unlikely but I would laugh at several posters if Fonte went on to be the first choice CB anyway (and he did well of course). Really feel he deserves a bigger shot at them Prem than two games with our squad to be completed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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