Lambert and Rodrigues Can Play Together

[saintant]

These two can play together. We need to look at Swansea's model as they manage to combine two strikers, Michu and Graham. Graham plays up front while Michu sits behind. We could have Rodrigues up front with Rickie in behind as part of the 'midfield' three. To do this we need two good wing midfielders to play the role that Dyer and Routledge do. If you watch Swansea their two banks of three are very fluid and switch quickly so they can have five in midfield when defending or trying to retrieve the ball. When they have possession they spring quickly so they have plenty of men from their two banks of three in offensive positions. Michu doesn't do a lot of defensive work but he makes up the numbers, is good on the ball and can bring in other players plus he scores goals. For the Dyer and Routledge roles I guess we'd go for Tadanari Lee and Ramires (assuming he signs) - and there's still talk of Matt Phillips. The two traditional midfielders would be Adam and Schneiderlin or Steve Davis with Ward Prowse and Cork as other options.

We cannot spend 7million on a player like Rodrigues and then play him out of position - we may as well have flushed that money down the loo if we persist with him out wide. 433 is obviously the way to go in the Premier League but Adkins needs to get the right players in the right positions to make it work.

[Turkish]

I don't thnk anyone said they couldn't.

[saintant]

Maybe not but Adkins will only play Rodrigues wide if Rickie is playing - that doesn't work.

[Matthew Le God]

Lambert and Rodrigues Can Play Together

 

These two can play together. We need to look at Swansea's model as they manage to combine two strikers, Michu and Graham. Graham plays up front while Michu sits behind. We could have Rodrigues up front with Rickie in behind as part of the 'midfield' three. To do this we need two good wing midfielders to play the role that Dyer and Routledge do. If you watch Swansea their two banks of three are very fluid and switch quickly so they can have five in midfield when defending or trying to retrieve the ball. When they have possession they spring quickly so they have plenty of men from their two banks of three in offensive positions. Michu doesn't do a lot of defensive work but he makes up the numbers, is good on the ball and can bring in other players plus he scores goals. For the Dyer and Routledge roles I guess we'd go for Tadanari Lee and Ramires (assuming he signs) - and there's still talk of Matt Phillips. The two traditional midfielders would be Adam and Schneiderlin or Steve Davis with Ward Prowse and Cork as other options.

We cannot spend 7million on a player like Rodrigues and then play him out of position - we may as well have flushed that money down the loo if we persist with him out wide. 433 is obviously the way to go in the Premier League but Adkins needs to get the right players in the right positions to make it work.

 

I doubt it, Peter Rodrigues is 68 years old!

 

[The Kraken]

Leaving aside Captain Pedantic's predictable yet boring riposte.....

 

I'm yet to see the logic in signing someone for our record fee and playing either he or our most prolific striker out of position. JRod's signing only really seems to make sense if he replaces Lambert or plays up front with him; neither of which look like happening right now.

 

And Michu is an attacking midfielder, not a genuine striker like JRod or Rickie.

[Matthew Le God]

I don't see Adkins changing the system. It will probably be like this pretty much all season unless it goes disastrously wrong...

 

[shurlock]

I don't see Adkins changing the system. It will probably be like this pretty much all season unless it goes disastrously wrong...

 

 

You keep wielding the speak and spell chart you've artfully coloured in but have you actually seen us play?

Lallana does not play in such a withdrawn position while the other CM has not played in such an advanced position. Indeed, JWP played further behind Morgan against City.

Edited 27 August, 2012 by shurlock

[Dig Dig]

I don't see Adkins changing the system. It will probably be like this pretty much all season unless it goes disastrously wrong...

 

 

It will be disatrous unless we get the right personnel in to play that formation. Pretty sure Rodriguez is just filling in and "doing a job" out left for now

[buctootim]

I don't see Adkins changing the system. It will probably be like this pretty much all season unless it goes disastrously wrong...

 

 

So he was lying when he said they were learning a third way to play in order to increase their options then.

[Matthew Le God]

You keep wielding your speak and spell chart you've artfully coloured in but have you actually seen us play?

Lallana does not play in such a withdrawn position while the likes of JWP have often played further back than Morgan.

 

Yes I have and that is the default formation without the ball. Yes, Lallana breaks forward but without the ball the above diagram is how we lineup. Schneiderlin sits infront of Fonte and Hooiveld as the holding midifelder.

[Matthew Le God]

So he was lying when he said they were learning a third way to play in order to increase their options then.

 

The 433 is the 3rd way. The other two systems are the 442 and the 442 diamond we used the previous two seasons.

[The Kraken]

It will be disatrous unless we get the right personnel in to play that formation. Pretty sure Rodriguez is just filling in and "doing a job" out left for now

The question is, what happens if/when we get a proper left winger. I can't see JRod usurping Lambert up front, can you? In which case £6M+ would be a hell of a lot of money for a newly promoted team to spend on a reserve player. Its a bit of a bizarre situation.

[buctootim]

The 433 is the 3rd way. The other two systems are the 442 and the 442 diamond we used the previous two seasons.

 

We know. Every saints fan with a pulse knows. Stating the bleeding obvious isnt profound. So "don't see Adkins changing the system. It will probably be like this pretty much all season unless it goes disastrously wrong" is patently untrue.

[Dig Dig]

The question is, what happens if/when we get a proper left winger. I can't see JRod usurping Lambert up front, can you? In which case £6M+ would be a hell of a lot of money for a newly promoted team to spend on a reserve player. Its a bit of a bizarre situation.

 

I think Rodriguez should be competing with Lambert for the central role. I can see Lambert coming off the bench often this season as the impact sub ala City with Rodriguez starting, particularly away. I really do think Adkins is just filling in holes until we get a couple of forwards in this week.

[Matthew Le God]

We know. Every saints fan with a pulse knows. Stating the bleeding obvious isnt profound. So "don't see Adkins changing the system. It will probably be like this pretty much all season unless it goes disastrously wrong" is patently untrue.

 

I meant changing it from being the main formation, the 433 is the main formation with 442 and 442 diamond as the backups during games.

[shurlock]

Yes I have and that is the default formation without the ball. Yes, Lallana breaks forward but without the ball the above diagram is how we lineup. Schneiderlin sits infront of Fonte and Hooiveld as the holding midifelder.

 

You'll find that JWP and Davis have effectively played more like a second defensive/holding midfielder and Lallana has played in a much more advanced position - more like a pyramid than an inverted one.

[buctootim]

I meant changing it from being the main formation, the 433 is the main formation with 442 and 442 diamond as the backups during games.

 

When did NA announce that?

[Matthew Le God]

When did NA announce that?

 

Well the 433 has been the formation used throughout pre-season. It was also the formation used for the majority of the opening two league games.

[The Kraken]

I think Rodriguez should be competing with Lambert for the central role. I can see Lambert coming off the bench often this season as the impact sub ala City with Rodriguez starting, particularly away. I really do think Adkins is just filling in holes until we get a couple of forwards in this week.

I'd honestly be disappointed if NA sees RL as an impact sub for a lot of games this season. I think we're much better with him in the team than not, and if we were going to adopt this new 4-3-3 as our preferred way of playing I'd have liked to have seen us sign the players to suit RL. I think we'd be worse with Rodriguez up front and Lambert on the bench. In pre-season and games so far, when we got 442 it with Sharp up front rather than Lambert and Rodriguez together, which is why I'm very much struggling to see the logic in spending such a chunk of our budget for a player who doesn't yet seem to fit into the ways we want to play. Early days of course, and I'm by no means writing him off, I just find it perplexing from what I've seen to date.

[Matthew Le God]

You'll find that JWP and Davis have effectively played more like a second defensive/holding midfielder and Lallana has played in a much more advanced position - more like a pyramid than an inverted one.

 

That would make it a 4231 system, which can't really be described as a 433. Adkins consistently refers to it as a 433, it is clear when out of possession that Schneiderlin plays deeper than any other midfielder with two central midfielders ahead of him.

[buctootim]

Well the 433 has been the formation used throughout pre-season. It was also the formation used for the majority of the opening two league games.

 

 

Because as Adkins has clearly said on a number of occasions they have been learning a third system to give them more options against different teams and styles. They clearly wont just be substituting one style of play for another whatever you post.

Edited 27 August, 2012 by buctootim

[The Kraken]

That would make it a 4231 system, which can't really be described as a 433. Adkins consistently refers to it as a 433, it is clear when out of possession that Schneiderlin plays deeper than any other midfielder with two central midfielders ahead of him.

 

We had more than 50% posession against wigan, therefore its more valid to look at the formation when we were actually in posession.

[shurlock]

That would make it a 4231 system, which can't really be described as a 433. Adkins consistently refers to it as a 433, it is clear that Schneiderlin plays deeper than any other midfielder with two central midfielders ahead of him.

 

You can call it what the f**k you want -and yes you can still it call it a 4-3-3. But who cares.

Look at the graphs the9 put up for the City game, showing the average positions the team took up (mindful that this was an away game). That's a better reflection of how we really play -not how we line up in theory according to your fantasy comfort blanket.

[The Kraken]

You can call it what the f**k you want -and yes you can still it call it a 4-3-3. But who cares.

Look at the graphs the9 put up for the City game, showing the average positions the team took up (mindful that this was an away game). That's a better reflection of how we really play -not how we line up in theory according to your fantasy comfort blanket.

 

Where can these graphs be found? More than anything I'd be interested to see where JRod appeared throughout the game, in comparison to Puncheon on the other side.

[Lord Duckhunter]

In my opinion there is a lot of nonsense talked about Lambert/J Rod. Had we not signed J Rod, there would be lots of bed wetting over having a back up for Lambert. NA has a scouting system, a coaching team and the benefit of seeing him day in and day out at training. We have the "benefit" of watching him twice, once away at the best home side in the Country.

 

****ing hell, why is everything so black and white on here. It's a squad game nowadays and J Rod adds to our squad from last year. He's a young player with potential and being English we had to pay a premium for that. I certainly would rather see players like him in our squad, than some old has been picking up one last pay check.

 

As for systems, I want to see 2 holding midfielders in the away games and home games against the top sides,a 4-2-3-1 . Adkins knows a bit more than me about it, so I'll trust his judgement. The main thing is it doesn't matter what system we play if we give away soft goals. If you look at it, we've conceeded 5 and haven't made the opposition work too hard for any of them.

[Dig Dig]

I'd honestly be disappointed if NA sees RL as an impact sub for a lot of games this season. I think we're much better with him in the team than not, and if we were going to adopt this new 4-3-3 as our preferred way of playing I'd have liked to have seen us sign the players to suit RL. I think we'd be worse with Rodriguez up front and Lambert on the bench. In pre-season and games so far, when we got 442 it with Sharp up front rather than Lambert and Rodriguez together, which is why I'm very much struggling to see the logic in spending such a chunk of our budget for a player who doesn't yet seem to fit into the ways we want to play. Early days of course, and I'm by no means writing him off, I just find it perplexing from what I've seen to date.

 

Yea, can see what you're saying. I think he's been bought in as Lamberts long term replacement as they have similar attributes, especially aerially. We don't have anyone who can replace lambert for a few games when needed so he's a good option to have and will provide a bit more mobility through the centre than Lambert currently provides.

 

I think we probably won't see the best of Rodriguez this season, can see him taking some time to settle.

 

I don't think that 6M is too much when you consider that Fletcher was sold for nearly 4 times that amount and Burnley fans rate Rodriguez as the better player.

[batterseasaint]

I don't see Adkins changing the system. It will probably be like this pretty much all season unless it goes disastrously wrong...

 

 

The problem with that chart is that there doesn't appear to be a circle for Adam Lallana. Either I was dreaming when I read Lallana himself say that Nge wants him to go wherever the ball is, or that chart is not an accurate reflection of how we play.

[The Kraken]

Yea, can see what you're saying. I think he's been bought in as Lamberts long term replacement as they have similar attributes, especially aerially. We don't have anyone who can replace lambert for a few games when needed so he's a good option to have and will provide a bit more mobility through the centre than Lambert currently provides.

 

I think we probably won't see the best of Rodriguez this season, can see him taking some time to settle.

 

I don't think that 6M is too much when you consider that Fletcher was sold for nearly 4 times that amount and Burnley fans rate Rodriguez as the better player.

While that's undoubtedly true (apart from the 4 times bit, closer to slightly more than double) I still find it surprising that we seemingly prioritised the signing of Rodriguez. I agree he may need time to settle, and could well be one for the future, which kind of reinforces my opinion that its a bit of a bizarre major signing for us right now, when we're looking to establish ourselves in this division as quickly as possible. You'd also say that Clyne is one for the future but he's been able to come in and immediately have a very positive impact. I don't think you can say the same of Rodriguez yet.

[Dig Dig]

While that's undoubtedly true (apart from the 4 times bit, closer to slightly more than double) I still find it surprising that we seemingly prioritised the signing of Rodriguez. I agree he may need time to settle, and could well be one for the future, which kind of reinforces my opinion that its a bit of a bizarre major signing for us right now, when we're looking to establish ourselves in this division as quickly as possible. You'd also say that Clyne is one for the future but he's been able to come in and immediately have a very positive impact. I don't think you can say the same of Rodriguez yet.

 

No, I don't think he's made much impact yet at all. I think us signing the right players to play around him and Lambert is key to bringing the best out of him. From what Ive seen, he's got a good touch and can hold play up but unfortunately has been playing the centre forward role with his back to goal on the left which is useless, especially as Fox never goes on the overlap.

[saintant]

Whether Michu is a striker or a midfielder is not relevant as I think Lambert could comfortably play the role I saw him play for Swansea on Saturday against West Ham. He did nothing Lambert can't do. He held the ball up, laid it off, made himself available and supported the attack. He didn't do lots of charging about but kept the ball ticking over between midfield and attack. Lambert seems to spend most of his time in deep lying positions anyway so why not give him a try playing behind RodrigueZ?

[The Kraken]

Whether Michu is a striker or a midfielder is not relevant as I think Lambert could comfortably play the role I saw him play for Swansea on Saturday against West Ham. He did nothing Lambert can't do. He held the ball up, laid it off, made himself available and supported the attack. He didn't do lots of charging about but kept the ball ticking over between midfield and attack. Lambert seems to spend most of his time in deep lying positions anyway so why not give him a try playing behind RodrigueZ?

 

Lambert is nowhere near as mobile as Michu, they are two very different players. And IMO Lambert is absolutely at his best when he is the main target furthest forward and can either header/shoot himself or pay off to supporting players coming in from behind. Playing him deeper would negate his main threat in and around the area, and therefore nullify his effectiveness.

[saintant]

Michu mobile? As I said, I didn't see him do much other than stroll around. Didn't show any great mobility. When you talk about mobility in midfield surely you mean players such as Iniesta or Fabregas. Michus is just a tall guy who plays at an even pace and doesn't hustle about the pitch - a bit like Rickie you might say. The boys at Swansea who do all the mobile work are Dyer, Routledge, Britton and De Guzman - they do all the leg work.

[The Kraken]

Michu mobile? As I said, I didn't see him do much other than stroll around. Didn't show any great mobility. When you talk about mobility in midfield surely you mean players such as Iniesta or Fabregas. Michus is just a tall guy who plays at an even pace and doesn't hustle about the pitch - a bit like Rickie you might say. The boys at Swansea who do all the mobile work are Dyer, Routledge, Britton and De Guzman - they do all the leg work.

Well I watched the whole Swansea game, and I disagree with you. You'd be asking Lambert to play a role that is alien to him and IMO one which doesn't play to his strengths at all, while also nullifying his main threat of being a focal point in the opposition area. You may find others on here who'll agree with you, othes have previously said that RL could play in the hole, I've consistently disagreed and still do.

[Dig Dig]

Well I watched the whole Swansea game, and I disagree with you. You'd be asking Lambert to play a role that is alien to him and IMO one which doesn't play to his strengths at all, while also nullifying his main threat of being a focal point in the opposition area. You may find others on here who'll agree with you, othes have previously said that RL could play in the hole, I've consistently disagreed and still do.

 

I agree, Lambert is a centre forward. As is Rodriguez.

[Thedelldays]

I just don't get all this lambert playing off the striker...he is not particularly mobile but (IMO) he is excellent at dominating the penalty are and as we saw last week against top top opposition, he is capable of scaring the shyt out of them.....that won't happen every week granted..but he is one hell of a presence in the area

 

to take that away from him and the team is just madness

[saintant]

So how do you explain the fact that Rickie constantly drops deep to help link up the play? He is rarely seen as an out and out centre forward and certainly not a target man.

[Thedelldays]

So how do you explain the fact that Rickie constantly drops deep to help link up the play? He is rarely seen as an out and out centre forward and certainly not a target man.

he drops off in the final 3rd as all target men types do...you watch crouch, carroll, holt...they will always drop off as the attack builds and bring other in play...it will also (hopefully) draw a defender with him and he will hopefully win the ball....that is completely different to "playing in the hole" which if anything...lallana is doing

[The Kraken]

So how do you explain the fact that Rickie constantly drops deep to help link up the play? He is rarely seen as an out and out centre forward and certainly not a target man.

I'd disagree with your assessment. While he sometimes drops deep he is quite clearly our target man. Our predictable but often unstoppable technique last season was a long diagonal ball to the far post for Lambert to head either on goal or back across for his team mates. It was predictable but stopping it from happening was another thing entirely.

[Rebel]

Ricky just isn't mobile or fast enough to lead the line in a 4-5-1 or a 4-3-3 formation.

 

We've got the best out of him over the last 3 seasons when their is someone in front of him to lead the line and creat space behind them for Ricky - so he can drop deep or go wide to pick up the ball and create the play or attack the space and go for goal.

 

Once we've signed someone to play on the left Rodriguez will probably move to the middle if we are going to play 4-3-3 or 4-5-1. Ricky will then probably be a sub or impact player from the bench if we switch to the diamond or 4-3-2-1 during the game.

 

I can see him starting if we play 4-2-3-1 though.

[Turkish]

I think Rodriguez has been signed as a long term signing. Initially to compete with Lambert up top then be his long term successor.

[saintant]

So why can't he be available for a far post cross when playing the role that Michu does for Swansea? He's an intelligent footballer. If he sees play building on the flank he's going to get himself to the far post. Or can he only do that if he's playing as an out and out front man? That's my point - Michu was in the midfield three on paper but always available as an extra striker as Swansea developed play. He's also scored three goals in two games from that position. Lambert does not have to play centre forward.

[The Kraken]

I think Rodriguez has been signed as a long term signing. Initially to compete with Lambert up top then be his long term successor.

 

I agree, which is why I find it slightly bizarre that we prioritised him as a signing and spent an awful lot of money on him when we clearly have other more necessary signings to make to establish ourselves in the division.

[Thedelldays]

I agree, which is why I find it slightly bizarre that we prioritised him as a signing and spent an awful lot of money on him when we clearly have other more necessary signings to make to establish ourselves in the division.

ffs,

its not about 1 player, its about a squad of honest hardworking professionals, that work hard every day and all want to play. They are backed up by an honest group of fantastic staff with a great sports science department so the players can be the best that they can be.....its called the southampton way..ffs

[The Kraken]

So why can't he be available for a far post cross when playing the role that Michu does for Swansea? He's an intelligent footballer. If he sees play building on the flank he's going to get himself to the far post. Or can he only do that if he's playing as an out and out front man? That's my point - Michu was in the midfield three on paper but always available as an extra striker as Swansea developed play. He's also scored three goals in two games from that position. Lambert does not have to play centre forward.

 

I think you're pushing this, and I've already told you why I disagree with you. If he's playing in the hole its going to be very difficult for him to also play as the furthest man forward, however intelligent he is its two different roles and field positions that you're talking about. I've seen enough of Rickie Lambert to form my opinion on this and I simply disagree with your assessment.

[The Kraken]

ffs,

its not about 1 player, its about a squad of honest hardworking professionals, that work hard every day and all want to play. They are backed up by an honest group of fantastic staff with a great sports science department so the players can be the best that they can be.....its called the southampton way..ffs

 

Together as one.

[saintant]

Can Rodriguez not head the ball?

[The Kraken]

Can Rodriguez not head the ball?

 

No.

[Chez]

Ricky just isn't mobile or fast enough to lead the line in a 4-5-1 or a 4-3-3 formation.

 

We've got the best out of him over the last 3 seasons when their is someone in front of him to lead the line and creat space behind them for Ricky - so he can drop deep or go wide to pick up the ball and create the play or attack the space and go for goal.

 

Once we've signed someone to play on the left Rodriguez will probably move to the middle if we are going to play 4-3-3 or 4-5-1. Ricky will then probably be a sub or impact player from the bench if we switch to the diamond or 4-3-2-1 during the game.

 

I can see him starting if we play 4-2-3-1 though.

 

I don't understand why Lambert can't play the centre role in a 4-3-3. The pace comes from the wings and he is the perfect target man. He takes up great positions, wins loads in the air and usually has a fantastic touch so you can ping it up to him and the ball sticks. Our failing against Wigan came from Lambert having a poor game, not the formation or his role in it. A poor first touch won't be hidden by any formation.

 

I struggle to see where Rodriguez fits in though.

[saintant]

Any reason why not?

[shurlock]

Where can these graphs be found? More than anything I'd be interested to see where JRod appeared throughout the game, in comparison to Puncheon on the other side.

 

 

Post 107

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?39554-Wigan-Build-Up&p=1453283#post1453283

God knows where the9 got it from. Top shelf stuff for statos.

Edited 27 August, 2012 by shurlock