Ahhh, religion... Ahhhh, Islam

[saintbletch]

When we used to do it you used your little finger on a glass.

 

Right, I'm not sure if I'm missing something here Sergei Gotsmanov or if you're playing dumb. So I'll interpret your question literally.

 

The protagonists move the pointer.

 

I know this for a fact. Because when I did it with my mate Trev, the spirit world chose to communicate the following to us.

 

TREVSATW*T

[Frank's cousin]

As an aside my Great Grandfather was a vicar and lost his faith when he lost my great Aunt. He got quite involved with spiritualism and was involved with Arthur Conan Doyle. This was certainly not finacially driven. As for the Ouiija boards I would agree it could be in your subconscious but why then do you need more than two people to operate it. I am not sure you are qualified to argue about it if you have never done it.

 

You need more than 2 people because that way no one can tell who is pushing the darn thing - seriously, You answered your quetsion yourself. I take it your GG was close to your GA and as susch was quite emotionally driven as a result of her death? Would it be wrong to suggest there was an emotional irrationality followinga bereavement than ment he might have wanted to believe in spiritualism?

 

I am not qualified to administer chemotherapy, but having woked with opinion leading oncologists and clinical data for over 15 years, I could tell you the first line treatmnet regimen for treating Hepatocellular carcinoma, which drug combinations, the protocol, side effect management etc - and the odds on a prognoisis depending on the patient type and when they presented eg. I know how it works so I would and frequently have these conversations with those that do treat patients - and my opinion is not any less valid because it is absed on knowledge - as in this case I have read about the whole spiritualism issue in detail and just knowing the factual historyu of how it came about is enough to tell you its all bunkum - the methodology is simply teh same tricks as any good magician would use - preparation and planning + misdirection and often slight of hand - what makes it bad is that they ALL con people, often at emotional times out of money - it is in effect Fraud.

[Frank's cousin]

Right, I'm not sure if I'm missing something here Sergei Gotsmanov or if you're playing dumb. So I'll interpret your question literally.

 

The protagonists move the pointer.

 

I know this for a fact. Because when I did it with my mate Trev, the spirit world chose to communicate the following to us.

 

TREVSATW*T

 

just did a little wee...

[Sheaf Saint]

You need more than 2 people because that way no one can tell who is pushing the darn thing - seriously, You answered your quetsion yourself. I take it your GG was close to your GA and as susch was quite emotionally driven as a result of her death? Would it be wrong to suggest there was an emotional irrationality followinga bereavement than ment he might have wanted to believe in spiritualism?

 

I am not qualified to administer chemotherapy, but having woked with opinion leading oncologists and clinical data for over 15 years, I could tell you the first line treatmnet regimen for treating Hepatocellular carcinoma, which drug combinations, the protocol, side effect management etc - and the odds on a prognoisis depending on the patient type and when they presented eg. I know how it works so I would and frequently have these conversations with those that do treat patients - and my opinion is not any less valid because it is absed on knowledge - as in this case I have read about the whole spiritualism issue in detail and just knowing the factual historyu of how it came about is enough to tell you its all bunkum - the methodology is simply teh same tricks as any good magician would use - preparation and planning + misdirection and often slight of hand - what makes it bad is that they ALL con people, often at emotional times out of money - it is in effect Fraud.

 

What about the ones who don't do it for money Frank?

[hypochondriac]

They're only extremes from your point of view in a 21st century Britain. They represent hundreds of millions of people and in many countries are the mainstream. Further they are actually more true to their religions than many in the country than those in this country who pick and choose the bits of religion they like or dislike.

 

From one point of view I've actually got more respect for devout believers e.g. an evangelical Christian who was also a creationist etc. They hold many opinions that I would completely disagree with but they are at least true to their faith.

 

Well as religion is subjective, I'm not sure how someone can say to someone else that they are 'more true' to their religion. Do you mean they interpret it more literally?

Edited 22 August, 2012 by hypochondriac

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Right, I'm not sure if I'm missing something here Sergei Gotsmanov or if you're playing dumb. So I'll interpret your question literally.

 

The protagonists move the pointer.

 

I know this for a fact. Because when I did it with my mate Trev, the spirit world chose to communicate the following to us.

 

TREVSATW*T

 

Well you need more than two people.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

You need more than 2 people because that way no one can tell who is pushing the darn thing - seriously, You answered your quetsion yourself. I take it your GG was close to your GA and as susch was quite emotionally driven as a result of her death? Would it be wrong to suggest there was an emotional irrationality followinga bereavement than ment he might have wanted to believe in spiritualism?

 

I am not qualified to administer chemotherapy, but having woked with opinion leading oncologists and clinical data for over 15 years, I could tell you the first line treatmnet regimen for treating Hepatocellular carcinoma, which drug combinations, the protocol, side effect management etc - and the odds on a prognoisis depending on the patient type and when they presented eg. I know how it works so I would and frequently have these conversations with those that do treat patients - and my opinion is not any less valid because it is absed on knowledge - as in this case I have read about the whole spiritualism issue in detail and just knowing the factual historyu of how it came about is enough to tell you its all bunkum - the methodology is simply teh same tricks as any good magician would use - preparation and planning + misdirection and often slight of hand - what makes it bad is that they ALL con people, often at emotional times out of money - it is in effect Fraud.

 

Firstly in this mini debate you ignore the fact that there is sometimes no commercial transaction.

 

Secondly I was using a ouija board to illustrate that you are using science to argue the existance or non existance of God whilst ignoring the spiritual side of religion which cannot be measured. People get some spiritual satisfaction out of religion and I do not think you address this or what causes it. The Oiuja board is a side show.

[scotty]

Firstly in this mini debate you ignore the fact that there is sometimes no commercial transaction.

 

Secondly I was using a ouija board to illustrate that you are using science to argue the existance or non existance of God whilst ignoring the spiritual side of religion which cannot be measured. People get some spiritual satisfaction out of religion and I do not think you address this or what causes it. The Oiuja board is a side show.

 

Talking about commercial transactions, do you ever check your f*cking pmails? I was counting on a free or at least discounted pint today. ffs

[Frank's cousin]

Firstly in this mini debate you ignore the fact that there is sometimes no commercial transaction.

 

Secondly I was using a ouija board to illustrate that you are using science to argue the existance or non existance of God whilst ignoring the spiritual side of religion which cannot be measured. People get some spiritual satisfaction out of religion and I do not think you address this or what causes it. The Oiuja board is a side show.

 

Indeed there are plenty of examples where a 'free' sitting is done maybe even a few as the medium garners information, or where you may not pay for a sitting but are lets say encouraged to make a donation to the building a spiritulist church (which will never get built) search hard and there is always a money trail - and thos efolk you KNOW who do this will, never admit it to you - its like the masons - a network that share the 'book' eg information on regular sitters so as to amaze the gullable or worse the emotionally vunerable when they turn up at a new medium etc... but thats besides the point

 

Yes, Sergei, people get 'spiritual satisfaction' from religion - but can you define what this is ?, think about it for a second - what do these people really get? A sense of calm? the ability to deal with complex emotional needs? what else? The thing is what religion does very well is no different from a decent psychiatrist or shrink - some respond simply to the community - oldies especially as sadly the church is often the only place many old folk actually get to interact with other people. Others in the soothing sermons that often deal with the very issues that we face day to day - love, loneliness, bereavement, etc... so quite naturally there is comfort in this and I am not going to dismiss the value of that - just you could do ALL this without adding a divine being into the mix - and rememeber 'Jesus loves you' is a very compelling idea if he is the only one who does.

[saintbletch]

Well you need more than two people.

 

Four of us used it that night, in ones, twos, threes and a four. But as the spirits were determined to gang up on Trev - he wouldn't do it any more.

 

So as we were bored I then knocked Trev out using a hyperventilation technique (oxygen narcosis) and he fell on his face and broke his 4 front teeth clean off.

 

We did suggest it was some kind of message from beyond the grave - spiritual karma if you will. It was quite a night.

 

Nowadays I think the spirits use Twitter anyway and Trev has false teeth.

 

I'm really not sure you furthered the credibility of your argument, or the debate for that matter by introducing the Ouija board Sergei Gotsmanov.

 

Am I missing something?

[Frank's cousin]

Originally Posted by saintbletch

Right, I'm not sure if I'm missing something here Sergei Gotsmanov or if you're playing dumb. So I'll interpret your question literally.

 

The protagonists move the pointer.

 

I know this for a fact. Because when I did it with my mate Trev, the spirit world chose to communicate the following to us.

 

TREVSATW*T

Well you need more than two people.

 

In which case it would have said....

 

TREVSATW*TANDSOISBLETCH

[scotty]

 

Am I missing something?

 

He's bolted in shame, bletchy. And quite right too.

[Frank's cousin]

He's bolted in shame, bletchy. And quite right too.

 

He msut have been on a wind up with that Ouiigiuigi nonsense.... 'TREVSATW*T'' brillliant

[scotty]

He msut have been on a wind up with that Ouiigiuigi nonsense.... 'TREVSATW*T'' brillliant

I didn't quite mean that, tbh.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Talking about commercial transactions, do you ever check your f*cking pmails? I was counting on a free or at least discounted pint today. ffs

 

I don't as it happens to often but I have replied now!

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Four of us used it that night, in ones, twos, threes and a four. But as the spirits were determined to gang up on Trev - he wouldn't do it any more.

 

So as we were bored I then knocked Trev out using a hyperventilation technique (oxygen narcosis) and he fell on his face and broke his 4 front teeth clean off.

 

We did suggest it was some kind of message from beyond the grave - spiritual karma if you will. It was quite a night.

 

Nowadays I think the spirits use Twitter anyway and Trev has false teeth.

 

I'm really not sure you furthered the credibility of your argument, or the debate for that matter by introducing the Ouija board Sergei Gotsmanov.

 

Am I missing something?

 

I think I will retire from the discussion. I hope your mate has a good dentist.

[Frank's cousin]

I will tell you a couple of true stories as I have consumed a half a bottle of Red and I am feeling all spiritual.

 

Grandfathers Watch

 

My Grandad fought in the war - for Germany - what with him being German and all, ordinary bloke corporal in the army, no Nazi, in fact in the 1944 whilst on the Western Front he and his mates had had enough - they decided to file off the swastika from their army belt buckles as they had heard the rumours of the camps and were not exactly proud of what tehir country was doing - only problem was it was reported during inspection and he and his 2 mates where shipped to Eastern Front. His two buddies were both killed within 4 hours and he was shot through the shoulder and captued by the Soviet forces. He was sent to a POW camp in Siberia - not a pleasent experience and he was always reluctant to talk about it. He wa snot released until mid 1946 and had to walk best part of 2000 miles back home - it took him nearly a year.

 

He did mange to keep his wrist watch and no this aint Pul Fiction so he did not have to hide it up his arse - but he did leave it to me. I still have it and it sits in draw as the face is broken and it never works - even when you wind it up it never goes for more than 30 seconds - but its a keep sake, momento and means a lot to me.

 

But here's the thing - whneever I go an look at it and pick it up, it starts up all by its self for about 30 seconds or so - its just the small knocks etc getting the thing going, dislodging the dirt etc..nothing strange.

 

A few years back, I was off sick and watch the criminal excuse for day time TV and who was on but the chief feckwit Yuri Geller himself. He did is usual spoon bending and then for his final trick er sorry Psychokenesis experiment he asked the TV auidence if anyone had a an old watch that did not work, he would ake it start using the power of his mind, but we all had to stop what we were doing and focus on our watches - now I like a laugh so I did as I was told - and when we were then asked to go and fetch our watches ...Da Da it was working - for 30 seconds, just at it always did when I picked it up... now about 1 mil folk were probably watching that guff and my guess is about 50,000 may have had an old watch lying about and even if a quater of those started again thats 12,500 people all sudeely looking at Geller in a new light...WOW and sure enough 20-30 folk rang in saying how amazing it was - and the 'woo' legend grows.....

 

 

The Fake Dead Relative

Look at the back pages of magazines and newspapers and count the adverts for mediums and spiritualists - this is part of the problem, news papers dont want to print teh truth for fear pf loss of advertising revenue - happy to print 'woo' stories as it bolsters their chances of the advertisers coming back and the readers lap it up anyway so a double wammy...

 

A friend of a friend of a friend is a freelance journalist who a few years back went to a great deal of trouble to try and expose ths racket for what it is. In effect she invented a whole backstory of a fake dead relative - work, old army collegues, school history etc. to the point where she publsihed an obituary in a local rag and briefed certain ex collegues of her deceased uncle who never existed who had appeared in the obit with stories of the war, works etc - just your typical human interest type piece.

 

she then left it a few weeks before taking the plunge and picking a local medium at random form the ads - and calling up. she explained her background her job as a joutrnalist all tryue stuff and that something wa sstill troubling her about her uncle aho had passed away a few weeks back -.... a sitting was arranged.

 

The medium was able to to get her in touch with her dead uncle - whose spirit was in the room - now he did not appear straight away, she had done her home work first and was able to amaze the journa with information 'she could not possibly know' - having spoken with the very people who were mentioned in the obit....

 

...anyway she did not let on... she travelled 240 miles North to Halifax again a random choice, and looked through the local rag to pick a medium at random - and told teh same story - she did not mention she had already seen a medium down south in Kent... and surprise surprise she wa sable to get a sitting within 4 days - and was amazed at the what this medium could tell her both about herself and her dead uncle - he did not appear this time because by this stage she had whipped out her tape recorder and asked the medium how it was possible she was speaking to her dead uncle .... as he never existed....she was 'kindly' asked to leave

 

The point though is that she could not find anyone to publish her story as none of the press wanted to upset a lucrative adversiing revenue stream - indeed would have looked a bit hypocritica since they also mostly had chargeable pshyic and horsocope lines....

 

...always about the money

[saintbletch]

I think I will retire from the discussion. I hope your mate has a good dentist.

 

Fair enough Sergei Gotsmanov. Shame, and I hope you will see that if you re-read my posts, I attempted a number of times to get to the point of your Ouija board argument, but each time you appeared to be being evasive or flippant.

 

So instead I decided to regale you with Ouija board evening anecdote #1 from my past. Actually, I've remembered another one from about that time, also involving toothless Trev and spiritualism. True story.

 

Trev used to rent a room in a pretty rough part of Gosport - and that's saying something. His landlady was called Babs; she was 55+, a big girl, not a looker and not someone who valued personal hygene or who saw the merit in keeping a house tidy - or the s**t off the floor that would drop out of the arses of her four dogs for that matter. But a happier more kind-hearted woman you couldn't imagine.

 

Babs was a member of the Spiritualist Church (I think that was the proper name of the institution) and she was sleeping with a 20 year old lad called Ronnie who incidentally used to live at the bottom of my road when I was growing up. Ronnie was known in our area as not being completely "there". Nice enough lad but he had a turned-in foot which meant that he couldn't join in playing football in the back alley which left him ostracised and brutally bullied. He also had a bit of a speech impediment that, now on reflection, made him sound Jewish or Belgian too my adult ear. Amongst a host of other words he had trouble with, he couldn't pronounce the word "quid". He'd say "clid". Which made it easy to refuse his request to lend him "a couple of clid". "Haven't got any clids" would be the response that would be chucked back at him time and time again.

 

Anyway, many years later Ronnie was shacked up with Babs; they had met at the Spiritualist Church. It turned out the Ronnie was a minor "celebrity" in the church because he could speak in tongues and could channel spirits from beyond the grave. A number of times when I was round there, people would come to meet with Ronnie and he'd try to tell them about their loved ones from beyond the grave. I wasn't wise enough at the time to understand cold reading techniques, and if I'm honest I'm not sure Ronnie had the sort of intellect or the sort of exploitative personality to do that. The people that came to see him always seemed delighted with the results. I have no doubt in my mind that Ronnie believed what he was doing.

 

We'd often ask Ronnie to speak in tongues and he'd refuse saying that he couldn't do it for various reasons, too light/dark, too noisy/quiet, not stoned enough, too exhausting, etc. I was quite sceptical and then one night Ronnie had had a few herbal helpers and he went into one in the back garden and launched into a trance-like state and the noises and sounds that came from his mouth/throat had to be heard/experienced to be believed. It was one of the strangest things I've ever seen.

 

The evening then descended into farce as the Irish next door neighbour (Jim I think) came out with a massive, but massively blunt, bread knife. He'd been on the whisky all day as it was "pay day" and was attempting to get at Ronnie calling him the Devil and much worse. Trev and the neighbour then got into a fight, I grabbed the knife, police came, took one look at Ronnie who was still "elsewhere" and couldn't believe the scene before them.

 

I will never forget sitting in the front room with the two policemen with Babs playing the perfect hostess; fussing round them, offering them tea and coffee and studiously ignoring the 2 large dog turds on the carpet in front of the officers.

 

Ronnie, was really bad after that. Whatever had happened to him really drained him. Growing up with Ronnie, I think I'd lean toward a physical explanation for Ronnie's "abilities" but it was still a really odd thing to have witnessed.

Edited 22 August, 2012 by saintbletch
typos

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Fair enough Sergei Gotsmanov. Shame, and I hope you will see that if you re-read my posts, I attempted a number of times to get to the point of your Ouija board argument, but each time you appeared to be being evasive or flippant.

 

So instead I decided to regale you with Ouija board evening anecdote #1 from my past. Actually, I've remembered another one from about that time, also involving toothless Trev and spiritualism. True story.

 

Trev used to rent a room in a pretty rough part of Gosport - and that's saying something. His landlady was called Babs; she was 55+, a big girl, not a looker and not someone who valued personal hygene or who saw the merit in keeping a house tidy - or the s**t off the floor that would drop out of the arses of her four dogs for that matter. But a happier more kind-hearted woman you couldn't imagine.

 

Babs was a member of the Spiritualist Church (I think that was the proper name of the institution) and she was sleeping with a 20 year old lad called Ronnie who incidentally used to live at the bottom of my road when I was growing up. Ronnie was known in our area as not being completely "there". Nice enough lad but he had a turned-in foot which meant that he couldn't join in playing football in the back alley which left him ostracised and brutally bullied. He also had a bit of a speech impediment that, now on reflection, made him sound Jewish or Belgian too my adult ear. Amongst a host of other words he had trouble with, he couldn't pronounce the word "quid". He'd say "clid". Which made it easy to refuse his request to lend him "a couple of clid". "Haven't got any clids" would be the response that would be chucked back at him time and time again.

 

Anyway, many years later Ronnie was shacked up with Babs; they had met at the Spiritualist Church. It turned out the Ronnie was a minor "celebrity" in the church because he could speak in tongues and could channel spirits from beyond the grave. A number of times when I was round there, people would come to meet with Ronnie and he'd try to tell them about their loved ones from beyond the grave. I wasn't wise enough at the time to understand cold reading techniques, and if I'm honest I'm not sure Ronnie had the sort of intellect or the sort of exploitative personality to do that. The people that came to see him always seemed delighted with the results. I have no doubt in my mind that Ronnie believed what he was doing.

 

We'd often ask Ronnie to speak in tongues and he'd refuse saying that he couldn't do it for various reasons, too light/dark, too noisy/quiet, not stoned enough, too exhausting, etc. I was quite sceptical and then one night Ronnie had had a few herbal helpers and he went into one in the back garden and launched into a trance-like state and the noises and sounds that came from his mouth/throat had to be heard/experienced to be believed. It was one of the strangest things I've ever seen.

 

The evening then descended into farce as the Irish next door neighbour (Jim I think) came out with a massive, but massively blunt, bread knife. He'd been on the whisky all day as it was "pay day" and was attempting to get at Ronnie calling him the Devil and much worse. Trev and the neighbour then got into a fight, I grabbed the knife, police came, took one look at Ronnie who was still "elsewhere" and couldn't believe the scene before them.

 

I will never forget sitting in the front room with the two policemen with Babs playing the perfect hostess; fussing round them, offering them tea and coffee and studiously ignoring the 2 large dog turds on the carpet in front of the officers.

 

Ronnie, was really bad after that. Whatever had happened to him really drained him. Growing up with Ronnie, I think I'd lean toward a physical explanation for Ronnie's "abilities" but it was still a really off thing to have witnessed.

 

That is a fascinating story. In fairness I was merely trying to use the Ouija board as something that cannot be explained by science in the same way that people's religious experience cannot. People who have been to Auchswitz tell me the silence is bizarre, now science cannot explain that. Anyway I still cannot find an explanation for my ouja board experiences not through being evasive or flippant.

[Frank's cousin]

That is a fascinating story. In fairness I was merely trying to use the Ouija board as something that cannot be explained by science in the same way that people's religious experience cannot. People who have been to Auchswitz tell me the silence is bizarre, now science cannot explain that. Anyway I still cannot find an explanation for my ouja board experiences not through being evasive or flippant.

 

 

Ok fair enough, but why is that whenever something that folk cant explain happens there is a leap towards a 'spitual' explanation? what do you believe is most probable? that there is a simple yet undiclosed scientific explanation, your mates were in on it or there really was some out of this world thing going on?

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Ok fair enough' date=' but why is that whenever something that folk cant explain happens there is a leap towards a 'spitual' explanation? what do you believe is most probable? that there is a simple yet undiclosed scientific explanation, your mates were in on it or there really was some out of this world thing going on?[/quote']

 

Being sceptical should also apply to science. Life is extraordinary in itself and sometimes you can think out of the box that maybe there is something at else work. As I have said before, I struggle with much of the bible. I think the thread was about the influence of religion and I see the values as being on the whole a force for good. I also respect those that have a faith whatever their religion.

[buctootim]

Neither I nor my immediate family - mother, brother, sister can wear mechanical watches. They just stop on us after anything from a few hours to a week and wont run again. We aren't German or Muslims though.

[saintbletch]

That is a fascinating story. In fairness I was merely trying to use the Ouija board as something that cannot be explained by science in the same way that people's religious experience cannot. People who have been to Auchswitz tell me the silence is bizarre, now science cannot explain that. Anyway I still cannot find an explanation for my ouja board experiences not through being evasive or flippant.

 

Gotcha.

 

I think people may have assumed that you believed in Ouija boards - I did.

 

Whereas, I THINK, you're saying that when more than 2 of you use it, you can't definitively explain the results and that some form of non-physical, non-conscious communication happens between the participants that none of them on his own can explain.

 

I'd add to that the fact that when we sat down to use the Ouija board I did I have a slight tingle of anticipation which increased when we lowered the lights. Something that a biologist could certainly explain, but it felt like it came from somewhere else.

[Frank's cousin]

Being sceptical should also apply to science. Life is extraordinary in itself and sometimes you can think out of the box that maybe there is something at else work. As I have said before, I struggle with much of the bible. I think the thread was about the influence of religion and I see the values as being on the whole a force for good. I also respect those that have a faith whatever their religion.

 

Being sceptica IS at the core of science though Sergei - its why theories ae not established until there is is a wealth of experimental, repeatable evidence avaialable and also why even though established theories are 99.9999999999999999% certain to be true, if new evidence suggests something else is at work it will be looked at... scepticism is healthy and drives science... its one of the reasons why its at such odds with religion which has if a follower demands no 'doubts Thomas'. I think on a personal or individual level there is no doubt that most the religious teachings ...in general are reasonable values that encourage a stable and civilised society - and even inspire individuals to carry out great tasks of kindness and selflessness.... but I owuld argue that these values existed BEFORE these faiths became established and so whilst they have become fundemental to many faiths, they were not invented by them - in effect you dont nee dthe religeous slant ... of course the institutional historical geopolitcal impact of religion and all its acommpaning 'helishness' fform crusades, genecide, war and a contributer to hunger and pooor helth through outlawing condoms ec can not be laid at teh door of those who have simply faith - but we should not forget that thes einstitution could not survive if individuals did not support them either thorugh their weekly donantions or by keeping it all going.

 

OK the spiritualism bits were a bit more light hearted fun - but as serious point nonetheless.

[scotty]

I don't as it happens to often but I have replied now!

 

Fair enough. I never get very far in the "free beer" stakes.

[Frank's cousin]

Neither I nor my immediate family - mother, brother, sister can wear mechanical watches. They just stop on us after anything from a few hours to a week and wont run again. We aren't German or Muslims though.

 

its your magnetism Tis explained by science - my old man is the same -... I did suggest he try shoving it up his arse for 5 years once after an argument.

[hypochondriac]

To go off on a tangent here my question has always been what caused the big bang?

[Frank's cousin]

To go off on a tangent here my question has always been what caused the big bang?

 

Got me there mate - dont dabble in the dark arts of those types of physics... nasty nasty nasty

 

You see you have presented the classic example - a curious mind can be fertile ground for the belief mongers - we want to know and as it cant as yet be accurately explained by science (lots of theories on the universe but not alot of evidence) its simplere to ''believe, there was some sort of divine'' plan.... dangerous you see our curious brains

[hypochondriac]

Got me there mate - dont dabble in the dark arts of those types of physics... nasty nasty nasty

 

You see you have presented the classic example - a curious mind can be fertile ground for the belief mongers - we want to know and as it cant as yet be accurately explained by science (lots of theories on the universe but not alot of evidence) its simplere to ''believe, there was some sort of divine'' plan.... dangerous you see our curious brains

 

Still that possibility though where science cannot explain it...

[Frank's cousin]

Still that possibility though where science cannot explain it...

 

We must remember that there is a difference when we say it cant be explained by science - what we mean is that we cant YET explain it - the answer will be scientific eg the science of its exists, but we dont yet know it same as before 1953 we knew of DNA but not how it was able to pass on and copy genetic information - for that we needed the structure... and low an behold it worked as predicted . whats more genetics gave the method to darwins observational theories - tied in rather nicely.

 

Yes there is a chnace there is a divine being - but the odds are the same as there being an Easter Bunny - we cant disprove because we would need to catch and kill the Easter bunny to demonstrate it existed - and my daughter would never forgive me if i did that

 

Seriously, you are right there is a possibility, but there is more probabilty that aliens exist and keep order up there than a divine being - we need to be careful we dont confuse possible with probable - Its possible I could have a threesome with Claudia Schiffer and Elle Macpherson (I know showing my age), but its not probable... sadly

[Saint in Paradise]

NSFW very strong language

 

I think Billy Connolly sums it all up quite well in this approx 7 minute video. Bad language and will probably upset some people.

 

 

 

.

Edited 22 August, 2012 by Saint in Paradise
Added video

[badgerx16]

Back to the OP : she was apparently framed by a local muslim cleric :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2012/sep/02/pakistani-mullah-arrested-framing-blasphemy-girl-video?newsfeed=true

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/03/christian-girl-senior-pakistani-cleric-blasphemy?newsfeed=true

[Thedelldays]

talking of islam....many followers are taking themselves far too seriously at the mo

[scotty]

Would you describe yourself as an agnostic then?

 

I wouldn't disagree with any of the above scotty.

 

It was the atheism as a belief system part that I couldn't quite stretch to.

 

A belief system to me suggests a complex set of self-enforcing beliefs and rituals. Science is the closest I can get to those beliefs and rituals in an atheist context. But I'm not sure I'd describe science as a belief system.

 

Where do you stand?

 

This deserves a bump.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21319945

[miserableoldgit]

[Hamilton Saint]

Just to clarify: atheism is something specific. It is not a vague rejection of religion or spirituality, per se. It is a rejection of "theism" - which is a belief in the existence of a God (or gods) who has been "revealed" to human beings, and who is supposed to have a personal relation with his creatures. Atheists, therefore, are not necessarily synonymous with people who have no religious or spiritual beliefs or tendencies.

 

There are many kinds of religion and spiritual practice that are atheistic (a-theistic). They tend to lead to a rejection of the notion that people should accept a "revealed" set of principles that must be accepted with little room for doubt or variation.

 

Theism is nearly always characterised by a demand for orthodoxy. Those who reject authoritarian and autocratic systems of belief will often tend towards an a-theistic position.

 

 

And true "Christianity" - if we mean by that the ideas that Jesus Christ promulgated - tends towards an a-theistic position. Jesus rejected the orthodoxy of the revealed Mosaic Law. He talked about the spirit of the law, instead of the letter of the Law. And his social philosophy is a very radical view of how we should live our life. There are only a tiny portion of so-called Christians who are true followers of the man.

Edited 4 February, 2013 by Hamilton Saint

[saintbletch]

Just to clarify: atheism is something specific. It is not a vague rejection of religion or spirituality, per se. It is a rejection of "theism" - which is a belief in the existence of a God (or gods) who has been "revealed" to human beings, and who is supposed to have a personal relation with his creatures. Atheists, therefore, are not necessarily synonymous with people who have no religious or spiritual beliefs or tendencies.

 

There are many kinds of religion and spiritual practice that are atheistic (a-theistic). They tend to lead to a rejection of the notion that people should accept a "revealed" set of principles that must be accepted with little room for doubt or variation.

 

Theism is nearly always characterised by a demand for orthodoxy. Those who reject authoritarian and autocratic systems of belief will often tend towards an a-theistic position.

 

 

And true "Christianity" - if we mean by that the ideas that Jesus Christ promulgated - tends towards an a-theistic position. Jesus rejected the orthodoxy of the revealed Mosaic Law. He talked about the spirit of the law, instead of the letter of the Law. And his social philosophy is a very radical view of how we should live our life. There are only a tiny portion of so-called Christians who are true followers of the man.

 

Now that is what this thread needed... an adult in possession of the facts.

 

Thanks for the excellent definition Hamilton Saint. I must confess that before you brought these tablets of stone to the thread, we were scratching around a little and worshipping false idles(sic).

 

In fact it's a miracle and a testament to those that contributed that it didn't get locked the first time around.

 

This deserves a bump.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21319945

 

Interesting article.

 

Well scotty my boy, my instinct was that atheism and belief systems are mutually exclusive. But given Hamilton Saint's expanded definition, then I can see how they can be consistent.

 

Anyway, got to run. I'm late for work at the vegetarian slaughter house

 

Good thread.

[trousers]

Religion threads were so much better back in the day...

[Matthew Le God]