Transfer window - bump back to earth?

[The Kraken]

Personally I never believed the target of getting players before the City game was realistic. Of course Adkins would want them in sooner but he's not the one who has to make it happen.

 

Progress has been a bit slow in the last few weeks but it was always likely to go down to the deadline, and I expected us to be a bit short for the start of the season. I don't think that's a disaster.

 

Perhaps this is why you and others are disappointed, because you held too much stall in what Adkins said?

Well yes. neither I nor anyone else AFAIK have said that we won't bring in players before the transfer deadline. But if the manager deems it imprtant to bring players in before then, then I defer to his expertise. That it hasn't happened must be a disappointment to him, as it obviously is to us.

 

My biggest fear is that we end up taking a Hooiveld-type gamble again. That worked for us last year, but surely no-one can argue against the fact that it really was a last minute roll of the dice. JH had been turned down by Copenhagen (where he had been on loan) and was massively out of favour at Celtic. yet he was our last throw of the dice and thank God it worked out positively. I'd like to see us avoid that type of last minute gamble this term. I'd also have liked the opportunity for the starting XI to play at least one pre-season game together; that opportunity has long passed.

 

According to NA we're on the lookout for up to 5 more players. And we have 2 weeks to get them. We'll see what happens.

 

As to your saying you don't believe it was realistic to get players before the season's kick off; I'd simply say that Reading set that target for themselves and achieved what they wanted to do in plenty of time.

[Wildgoose]

Maybe Reading didn't aim for as high a quality player as we a re looking at and therefore it was easier to get them in? It's possible!

If we end up with another couple of real quality signings then people will be happy, the truth is we really don't know what's going on behind the scenes and people are getting frustrated. The time to moan is when the window has closed IMO.

[The Kraken]

Maybe Reading didn't aim for as high a quality player as we a re looking at and therefore it was easier to get them in? It's possible!

If we end up with another couple of real quality signings then people will be happy, the truth is we really don't know what's going on behind the scenes and people are getting frustrated. The time to moan is when the window has closed IMO.

 

Sorry, I don't understand why a higher standard of player takes longer to bring in? What evidence is there of this?

[Ex Lion Tamer]

Well yes. neither I nor anyone else AFAIK have said that we won't bring in players before the transfer deadline. But if the manager deems it imprtant to bring players in before then, then I defer to his expertise. That it hasn't happened must be a disappointment to him, as it obviously is to us.

 

My biggest fear is that we end up taking a Hooiveld-type gamble again. That worked for us last year, but surely no-one can argue against the fact that it really was a last minute roll of the dice. JH had been turned down by Copenhagen (where he had been on loan) and was massively out of favour at Celtic. yet he was our last throw of the dice and thank God it worked out positively. I'd like to see us avoid that type of last minute gamble this term. I'd also have liked the opportunity for the starting XI to play at least one pre-season game together; that opportunity has long passed.

 

According to NA we're on the lookout for up to 5 more players. And we have 2 weeks to get them. We'll see what happens.

 

As to your saying you don't believe it was realistic to get players before the season's kick off; I'd simply say that Reading set that target for themselves and achieved what they wanted to do in plenty of time.

I agree that we don't want to find ourselves gambling again like we did with Hooiveld (although you have to give credit to the scouting team for recognising that he had talent that wasn't being fulfilled), and we should sign 2 centre backs to mitigate the risk of one of them not being good enough. Hopefully that will happen before the end of the window.

 

I'm not really that impressed by Reading's signings and think we are aiming higher. Pogrebynak and Shorey in particular are very overrated I think - the former scored a burst of goals and then went through a long dry spell and the latter was dropped at West Brom for his lack of positional sense, after which time the defence looked much better. And Guthrie isn't any better than Davis.

 

Part of the issue I think is that Adkins is very particular about the type of player he wants to fit our system, which means we can't just take whoever comes along. For example, we could have gone for Michu but didn't because we don't play with an attacking midfielder. Ultimately this will (hopefully) benefit us in terms of having a coherent team which will be better than the sum of its parts.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

Sorry, I don't understand why a higher standard of player takes longer to bring in? What evidence is there of this?

Because clubs don't want to sell the better players and haggle for higher fees. Reading on the other hand have picked up a load of free transfers because they are available rather than because they are real quality

[Turkish]

Because clubs don't want to sell the better players and haggle for higher fees. Reading on the other hand have picked up a load of free transfers because they are available rather than because they are real quality

 

Did Lille not want to keep Eden Hazard then? He left in early June. What about Burnley and Rodriguez?

[The Kraken]

Because clubs don't want to sell the better players and haggle for higher fees. Reading on the other hand have picked up a load of free transfers because they are available rather than because they are real quality

 

What about all the players who've transferred to clubs for fairly high transfer fees so far? Like RVP today, if you like. Why have they gone through if its so difficult?

[The Kraken]

Did Lille not want to keep Eden Hazard then? He left in early June. What about Burnley and Rodriguez?

 

I'm thoroughly confused. We spent £7M on JRod to get him in June, but this type of thing isn't possible for other players. Although Arsenal clearly haven't had similar problems, they bought 3 players for £40M by early August. Like you say Chelsea got Hazard (plus Marin and Oscar for big money), Man U have got RVP, Man City have got Rodwell, QPR have got Hoilett, Liverpool have got Borini, along with many others from the PL clubs. Hmmm.

[Wildgoose]

Sorry, I don't understand why a higher standard of player takes longer to bring in? What evidence is there of this?

 

Because there is more competition and the players are maybe looking for more established clubs to come in for them? They'll need to be convinced we are going to be successful......people are saying we are being too ambitious and these players won't come. If we can get one then possibly others will follow.....

[The Kraken]

Because there is more competition and the players are maybe looking for more established clubs to come in for them? They'll need to be convinced we are going to be successful......people are saying we are being too ambitious and these players won't come. If we can get one then possibly others will follow.....

We already got Rodriguez. That was quite ambitious, wasn't it? And as I've said there have been plenty of big money signings that have gone through so far; how have they all happened?

[Ex Lion Tamer]

I'm thoroughly confused. We spent £7M on JRod to get him in June, but this type of thing isn't possible for other players. Although Arsenal clearly haven't had similar problems, they bought 3 players for £40M by early August. Like you say Chelsea got Hazard (plus Marin and Oscar for big money), Man U have got RVP, Man City have got Rodwell, QPR have got Hoilett, Liverpool have got Borini, along with many others from the PL clubs. Hmmm.

Its a very black and white view to say that just because one player can be obtained early, all players can. Some clubs will want to sell early in order to invest, while others will want to hold on in the hope of a receiving a higher bid. Meanwhile, some players will be happy to go to a club that is interested straightaway, but others will want to wait and see if better clubs become available.

 

And as a bidding club, we may not think certain players are worth the money being asked, and so want to wait until the transfer deadline to see if the selling club will lower its asking price because they don't want to be stuck with an unhappy player. This is where the disconnect occurs, because Adkins wants players in early but Cortese will believe that prices will drop when the deadline looms.

 

Its not even as if we haven't signed any players early, anyone can see that, we've signed several. And if the Buttner deal hadn't hit an unusual snag, we would have done even more business.

 

We obviously decided it was worth paying over the odds for Rodrigues as we are so convinced he is quality and had wanted to get some business finalised. If say we need to make 7 signings over the summer, we can't leave them all to the last minute, but now we only need 3 or 4 we may believe we can do it in the timescale.

[Bearsy]

You know this Gaston Ramirez character we're supposedly after? I spose if that happens we can forgive the club for that transfer being late at least cos it sounds like we're having to fight off Spurs and Liverpool. I mean, he ain't gonna sign for us on the 1st of July if he's got them sniffing round.

 

Maybe that's the deal, some of our targets are holding out for the bigger clubs?

[The Kraken]

Its a very black and white view to say that just because one player can be obtained early, all players can. Some clubs will want to sell early in order to invest, while others will want to hold on in the hope of a receiving a higher bid. Meanwhile, some players will be happy to go to a club that is interested straightaway, but others will want to wait and see if better clubs become available.

 

And as a bidding club, we may not think certain players are worth the money being asked, and so want to wait until the transfer deadline to see if the selling club will lower its asking price because they don't want to be stuck with an unhappy player. This is where the disconnect occurs, because Adkins wants players in early but Cortese will believe that prices will drop when the deadline looms.

 

Its not even as if we haven't signed any players early, anyone can see that, we've signed several. And if the Buttner deal hadn't hit an unusual snag, we would have done even more business.

 

We obviously decided it was worth paying over the odds for Rodrigues as we are so convinced he is quality and had wanted to get some business finalised. If say we need to make 7 signings over the summer, we can't leave them all to the last minute, but now we only need 3 or 4 we may believe we can do it in the timescale.

 

Its also very much a generalisation to say that expensive players take much longer to sign than cheaper ones.

 

Have we paid over the odds for Rodriguez? I'd say that's the going rate. Steven Fletcher is a very average Premier League player who scores around the 10 goal mark per season, yet Wolves have just turned down an increased bid of £12M for him.

 

Its hard to say this given that we've spent £10M so far; but maybe the realisation of just how much you have to spend to compete in the PL is coming home to roost. £2.5M for Clyne is a relative bargain, Davis was a pittance too. They are the exception; to get proper quality it takes a good deal of spending.

[RobM]

You have to be a bit special to think every transfer is as easy or hard as the next, regardless of how good the player is compared to the existing players (i.e. a 'better' player), so I don't understand this current argument. It took Utd six weeks to sign RVP, based on the press coverage of Utd's interest which started immediately after RVP said he wasn't signing a new contract. Same with Kagawa, which they said took 'weeks' of negotiation. I'm sure they wanted both done much quicker, rather than spending weeks and weeks working on it. But does this somehow reflect badly on the club or manager that it wasn't possible?

 

Equally, other signings can take no time at all. If one club wants to sell, another wants to buy and agrees with the valuation and the player wants the move, it'll be simple. Only one part of that has anything to do with the buying club.

 

We all want signings to be instant, but surely we're all experienced enough football fans to know it's not always possible, however positive the intentions were.

[Turkish]

You have to be a bit special to think every transfer is as easy or hard as the next, regardless of how good the player is compared to the existing players (i.e. a 'better' player), so I don't understand this current argument. It took Utd six weeks to sign RVP, based on the press coverage of Utd's interest which started immediately after RVP said he wasn't signing a new contract. Same with Kagawa, which they said took 'weeks' of negotiation. I'm sure they wanted both done much quicker, rather than spending weeks and weeks working on it. But does this somehow reflect badly on the club or manager that it wasn't possible?

 

Equally, other signings can take no time at all. If one club wants to sell, another wants to buy and agrees with the valuation and the player wants the move, it'll be simple. Only one part of that has anything to do with the buying club.

 

We all want signings to be instant, but surely we're all experienced enough football fans to know it's not always possible, however positive the intentions were.

 

It never takes that long on Football Manager.

[RobM]

It never takes that long on Football Manager.

 

Perhaps we should all chip in and buy NA a faster PC? We'd have signed Messi by now, surely...

[adrian lord]

I think a lot of people subconsciously equate the season starting with closure of the window - Adkins included in his declaration of activity intent in the market.

 

But the trouble is, outside of the mega-signings league (Van Persie etc) there is little done until the final days and hours of each window, when transfer activity rises exponentially as the deadline looms. Certain key moves unleash a flood of knock-on, domino effect transfers just before the deadline, and suddenly "dead" deals are revived and all is well. It'll happen this window with us - just not in time for City.

[The Kraken]

I think a lot of people subconsciously equate the season starting with closure of the window - Adkins included in his declaration of activity intent in the market.

 

But the trouble is, outside of the mega-signings league (Van Persie etc) there is little done until the final days and hours of each window, when transfer activity rises exponentially as the deadline looms. Certain key moves unleash a flood of knock-on, domino effect transfers just before the deadline, and suddenly "dead" deals are revived and all is well. It'll happen this window with us - just not in time for City.

 

Really? I think that's completely wrong. Can you substantiate this at all?

[JPTCount]

and once again the thread sidetracked over minor hear'say, he only said it was a possibility.

 

but logic dictates it takes longer to find better players, more scouting, higher fees, character references, etc. plus we dont have to replace our top goalscorer like arsenal do.

[adrian lord]

Really? I think that's completely wrong. Can you substantiate this at all?

 

For a start:

 

http://blog.fieldoo.com/2012/07/when-does-the-summer-transfer-window-start-and-end/

 

There is more but I m on train with ****e connection

[Bearsy]

Last transfer window 30% of deals happened deadline day. Dunno which side of the argument that helps, spin it how you like bros!

 

Edit: There was 381 signings in the English leagues, 116 on the deadline day. This was the January window tho which I spose is worse for Brinkmanships!

Edited 16 August, 2012 by Bearsy

[The Kraken]

For a start:

 

http://blog.fieldoo.com/2012/07/when-does-the-summer-transfer-window-start-and-end/

 

There is more but I m on train with ****e connection

I think you've missed my point, that article just lists transfer window dates.

 

You said "outside of the mega-signings league (Van Persie etc) there is little done until the final days and hours of each window". Which means that (according to your assertion)most signings are all done in the last few days of a transfer window that lasts for many weeks. What I'm asking is this: do you have some stats to back this up? Some numbers which show that the majority of transfers are indeed done in the final few days? Because I just don't think its correct, and I'm wondering where you're getting your figures from.

[The Kraken]

Last transfer window 30% of deals happened deadline day. Dunno which side of the argument that helps, spin it how you like bros!

 

Edit: There was 381 signings in the English leagues, 116 on the deadline day. This was the January window tho which I spose is worse for Brinkmanships!

 

Per my post above, do you have figures for last summer?

[Bearsy]

Nah homes I ain't got them datas. I reckon it'd be a lot lower % though when they've got the whole summer to **** around. Stands to reason.

[The Kraken]

Nah homes I ain't got them datas. I reckon it'd be a lot lower % though when they've got the whole summer to **** around. Stands to reason.

Bear Man, I owe you an apology dude. I was rude to you a while ago; unnecessary. You seem like a nice chap.

 

Still mates?

[Bearsy]

Can't read that, I've still got Kraken on ignore. Is he mugging me off again?

[The Kraken]

Denied by the bear.

 

[The9]

Nah homes I ain't got them datas. I reckon it'd be a lot lower % though when they've got the whole summer to **** around. Stands to reason.

 

Also, there are very few out of contract players in January, but loads of them in July, so plenty of Bosmans in early July (free to negotiate for the previous 6 months) and that would skew the figures away from deadline day in the summer window.

[Wildgoose]

We already got Rodriguez. That was quite ambitious, wasn't it? And as I've said there have been plenty of big money signings that have gone through so far; how have they all happened?

 

I guess what I'm saying is that we're not Man U or Arsenal are we? so we are not so attractive for the better quality players (at the moment) and we are probably having to wait for other things to happen (or not) before we can conclude deals. I just don't think it's as simple for a newly promoted club to get a player just because they want him. You would agree with that, no?

[The Kraken]

I guess what I'm saying is that we're not Man U or Arsenal are we? so we are not so attractive for the better quality players (at the moment) and we are probably having to wait for other things to happen (or not) before we can conclude deals. I just don't think it's as simple for a newly promoted club to get a player just because they want him. You would agree with that, no?

Its difficult yes. But we can either attract the players we target, or we can't. We're not competing with Man U or Arsenal for players; we have our own level and that is not it. Our peers are the bottom half of the table, that's who we're in competition with. And, having stepped up a division, we need more new players than existing PL sides. So we're behind and playing catch up from the start of the season.

[adrian lord]

I think you've missed my point, that article just lists transfer window dates.

 

You said "outside of the mega-signings league (Van Persie etc) there is little done until the final days and hours of each window". Which means that (according to your assertion)most signings are all done in the last few days of a transfer window that lasts for many weeks. What I'm asking is this: do you have some stats to back this up? Some numbers which show that the majority of transfers are indeed done in the final few days? Because I just don't think its correct, and I'm wondering where you're getting your figures from.

 

Quote from that article:

 

"It is interesting that the last day of August – also known as the transfer deadline day is the busiest day of the transfer window almost every year. It is not unusual that a lot of interdependent transfers are completed on that day, making it the media’s favorite summer day."

 

OK so maybe busiest but not most transfers on that day, but you should get the point I was making - i.e. "Don't panic- we'll strengthen by Aug 31 st, at the last minute".

Edited 16 August, 2012 by adrian lord

[The Kraken]

Quote from that article:

 

"It is interesting that the last day of August – also known as the transfer deadline day is the busiest day of the transfer window almost every year. It is not unusual that a lot of interdependent transfers are completed on that day, making it the media’s favorite summer day."

I think you've missed your point. Allow me to refresh you:

 

But the trouble is, outside of the mega-signings league (Van Persie etc) there is little done until the final days and hours of each window, when transfer activity rises exponentially as the deadline looms.

 

I think it's a given that the last day is the busiest day. But not that more gets done on the last "final days or hours" than the entirity of the transfer window.

[adrian lord]

I think you've missed your point. Allow me to refresh you:

 

 

 

= But not that more gets done on the last "final days or hours" than the entirity of the transfer window.

 

err...where did I say that?

 

I am not interested in silly point scoring - simply saying that in our position, we are left scrambling in the surge of last minute musical chairs.

 

Now, I shall return to my Chateau Talbot 1970. Far more enjoyable and arresting.

[The Kraken]

err...where did I say that?

 

I am not interested in silly point scoring - simply saying that in our position, we are left scrambling in the surge of last minute musical chairs.

 

Now, I shall return to my Chateau Talbot 1970. Far more enjoyable and arresting.

You must be p*ssed. You said it in post #169.

 

Enjoy the wine.

[shurlock]

And they say a week is a long time in politics - wonder what it is in mongboard terms. A huge bump to earth blah, blah, blah...

 

Thanks mugs for all the laughs and priceless moments.

[Wes Tender]

I have to admit that the naysayers were right. We are indeed showing a complete lack of ambition by not making any marquee signings. I'm forced to admit that my faith in Cortese and Adkins has been badly misplaced. The opening match against the Champions is only a couple of days away and since this thread began, we have only signed some foreign guy with absolutely no Premiership experience. Other Premiership rivals for the relegation drop have made far more and better signings than us, so it would be sensible to revise my earlier prediction that we would end the season in 10th place. We'll be lucky now to scrape the first survival place.

[sotonjoe]

lol at Dulldays' original post.

[Turkish]

Really? I think that's completely wrong. Can you substantiate this at all?

 

The Ramierz deal is proof FFS.

[trousers]

This transfer window has been a huge bump to earth for so many it seems.

 

All the talk about the prem being average, the likes of stoke and other mid table teams are no better than the top of the NPC and all the crap about how super rich saints are. Remember how confident everyone was saying we should finish mid table and how we don't need to spend £300m+ to make the champions league

 

Yep, a huge bump to earth to join us realists who always knew we would struggle like hell this season to bring in top quality unless we splashed huge money

 

May also, hopefully, stop the utter ridiculous champions league talk.

This

[Suhari]

 

Where did this thread get dragged up from!

 

Looking forward to scanning through it tomorrow.

[Secret Site Agent]

Thanks for bumping this.

Don't know why but thanks.