Lambert and Rodriguez

[Dig Dig]

It seems pretty clear that 433 or a variation of will be used next season. I don't think that we can accommodate both Lambert and Rodriguez in this formation. Jay doesn't seem effective on the left and I question Lamberts mobility in playing through the centre.

 

So it seems to me that it needs to be one or the other in order to make the system work.

 

Who do you think would be most effective playing in the middle of a front 3?

[doggface]

One or other in that formation IMO central.

 

As someone else said, all of a sudden left side is looking weaker than right.

 

I understand the need to experiment, but not the time for square pegs in round holes

[Turkish]

So this is based on seeing them playing in a new system in a few pre season friendlies is it?

[Saint Charlie]

So this is based on seeing them playing in a new system in a few pre season friendlies is it?

 

Yes. Plus a general feeling on their attributes. Rickie is most effective in a 4-4-2 as shown by his assist for Sharp tonight.

 

Not sure taking away some of RLs impact is the wisest thing, not as if we have massively strengthened in attacking areas. We have lots of strikers but few wide attackers. The 4-3-3 suits our midfield but do we have the right mix of forward players to pull it off?

[patred44]

So this is based on seeing them playing in a new system in a few pre season friendlies is it?

So, when does the 'experimenting' with new systems and line ups stop?

[benjii]

I doubt we will play the new way at home against Wigan or Norwich.

 

As to the left side of the 5, I would leave Lallana there and play a proper central midfielder in central midfield.

[Turkish]

So, when does the 'experimenting' with new systems and line ups stop?

 

When the season starts. Are friendlies not the best time to try out or for players to get used to playing in systems then?

[Turkish]

Yes. Plus a general feeling on their attributes. Rickie is most effective in a 4-4-2 as shown by his assist for Sharp tonight.

 

Not sure taking away some of RLs impact is the wisest thing, not as if we have massively strengthened in attacking areas. We have lots of strikers but few wide attackers. The 4-3-3 suits our midfield but do we have the right mix of forward players to pull it off?

 

Roriguez often played wide in a front 3 for Burnley, he isn't the problem.

[Dig Dig]

So this is based on seeing them playing in a new system in a few pre season friendlies is it?

 

Yes, what else am I supposed to base it on?

[Sour Mash]

The thing with playing 4-2-3-1 is that you'll have 4 upfront as a threat when attacking and 5 in midfield when defending if done properly. However if the players aren't quite suited to it you can end up with a load of players that aren't doing the job of either a forward or a midfielder and end up being wasted. Can see this happening with Rodriguez.

[Saint Garrett]

Seems as though Sharp is our most 'in form' striker at the moment anyway and played a lot up top on his own for Donny. I think Rickie struggles up top when he hasn't got anyone alongside him. Certainly an interesting debate. And, No, I don't think we have the players to play in a 433 if Lallana is central.

[Webby]

We know we can do 442 but 433 is new to us and something NA is going to want to use in some games. Doesn't mean we're gonna play it all the time. As it is new to us it makes sense that we've played that way in pre season. Who knows what goes on in training?

[david in sweden]

Yes. Plus a general feeling on their attributes. Rickie is most effective in a 4-4-2 as shown by his assist for Sharp tonight.

 

Not sure taking away some of RLs impact is the wisest thing, not as if we have massively strengthened in attacking areas. We have lots of strikers but few wide attackers. The 4-3-3 suits our midfield but do we have the right mix of forward players to pull it off?

 

 

Of course this is the key question.

Everyone hopes that RL will carry on where he left off in April, but ..what if ? At aged 30...sooner..(but hopefully later) his departure time will come and it's no good waiting to look for a replacement then....we won't find another RL.

 

Players of his ilk are a " one-off " who succeed with a team built to serve his skills. Older fans will recall the rather dubious (and then) record signing... of CF Ron Davies from Norwich in 1966, where he was a fairly good but not outstanding striker.

Suddenly playing in a side with two good wingers his goalscoring talent broke all records and within a couple of years he was the League's top scorer and described as the best CF in Europe..(by Man.U manager Sir Matt Busby - no less )..

 

Ricky has achieved miracles in the last 3 seasons - even beyond his own expectations - but there will come a time when he's no longer there .... What will Life after Rickie be like? Nothing is forever, and a team is always in a process of change.

 

I'm pretty sure we won't be playing the same formation then...We have the type of player NA wants,;T.Lee, Jay Rod and Billy Sharp .....(and even one or two more in the future perhaps.?)

 

Experimenting a little with a Plan B, is a good idea but that takes time. We know what worked before...but that style may not be so successful in the Prem. and so the obvious alternative is a little trial-and-error in friendly fixtures.. where three points aren't at stake every game. I'm trusting NA to find the right formula and a bit of experimentation does no harm - even if it doesn't succeed every time.

Edited 8 August, 2012 by david in sweden

[ohwhenthesaints]

One or other in that formation IMO central.

 

As someone else said, all of a sudden left side is looking weaker than right.

 

I understand the need to experiment, but not the time for square pegs in round holes

 

Don't forget we have Tadanari Lee who would more than likely play on the left of the three.

 

Adkins is looking for options and with a number of formations he will be able to switch things up depending on how games are going - such as putting Sharp up front with Lambert last night to grab the draw.

[david in sweden]

somehow the football world has got hung up on Goals of the Season that come from; a skilful lob, or an angled shot and the well-placed header... but now we have (Billy Sharp) who to my mind, is what used to be called....an old-fashioned centre forward.

 

I've watched several play backs of Billy-type goals and the word that comes to mind is....untidy. Not that he's lacking in some manner of skill in scoring, but Billy's " crash-bang " style does bring results.

Looking at the run-in last season, Billy scored 8 goals in the last 8 games, whereas Rickie (who we depended on so much in early season...managed 3 in the same 8 games).... no implied criticism of RL btw.... just stats.

 

It does however remind me of older names like; George Kirby, Colin Clarke, Iain Dowie and David Hirst. Strikers who... one way or another got the ball over the line - even if it was in a rather scrappy fashion at times.

 

This is by no means a criticism of Billy (who I quite admire)... but a reminder that football is sometimes a tough, physical-contact sport, and there are still players around who aren't afraid to get in and " mix it " a bit.

 

Best of luck Billy ! (more of the same please).

Edited 8 August, 2012 by david in sweden

[S-Clarke]

If the ball falls to him inside the 6 yard box, Sharp will score 9/10. An excellent 6 yard box finisher. Not entirely sure he fits our fluid attacking game from the start though.

[Saint Charlie]

If the ball falls to him inside the 6 yard box, Sharp will score 9/10. An excellent 6 yard box finisher. Not entirely sure he fits our fluid attacking game from the start though.

 

This. Premier League finisher, Championship all round game.

[S-Clarke]

This. Premier League finisher, Championship all round game.

 

If we're chasing a game, I'd throw him on and get Rickie to knock the ball down in the 6 yard box. Not pretty, but could be a fruitful way to grab some last minute goals! (ala last night)

[Saint Charlie]

somehow the football world has got hung up on Goals of the Season that come from; a skilful lob, or an angled shot and the well-placed header... but now we have (Billy Sharp) who to my mind, is what used to be called....an old-fashioned centre forward.

 

I've watched several play backs of Billy-type goals and the word that comes to mind is....untidy. Not that he's lacking in some manner of skill in scoring, but Billy's " crash-bang " style does bring results.

Looking at the run-in last season, Billy scored 8 goals in the last 8 games, whereas Rickie (who we depended on so much in early season...managed 3 in the same 8 games).... no implied criticism of RL btw.... just stats.

 

It does however remind me of older names like; George Kirby, Colin Clarke, Iain Dowie and David Hirst. Strikers who... one way or another got the ball over the line - even if it was in a rather scrappy fashion at times.

 

This is by no means a criticism of Billy (who I quite admire)... but a reminder that football is sometimes a tough, physical-contact sport, and there are still players around who aren't afraid to get in and " mix it " a bit.

 

Best of luck Billy ! (more of the same please).

 

Fair POint. Suarez at Liverpool is a great player who will run past 5 players and then mess up the finish. Always better to HAVE a player like Billy Sharp and Im sure he will score goals, but as Clarke says I don't see that he necessarily fits the style perfectly outside the PENALTY AREA.

[latter day saint]

Fair POint. Suarez at Liverpool is a great player who will run past 5 players and then mess up the finish. Always better to HAVE a player like Billy Sharp and Im sure he will score goals, but as Clarke says I don't see that he necessarily fits the style perfectly outside the PENALTY AREA.

i see what you did there

[david in sweden]

Fair POint. Suarez at Liverpool is a great player who will run past 5 players and then mess up the finish. Always better to HAVE a player like Billy Sharp and Im sure he will score goals, but as Clarke says I don't see that he necessarily fits the style perfectly outside the PENALTY AREA.

 

 

yes, but even though we were very successful last season, we might have had many more goals had our wonderful midfield "build-ups" been rewarded by better efforts in the six yard box.

[Saint Charlie]

yes, but even though we were very successful last season, we might have had many more goals had our wonderful midfield "build-ups" been rewarded by better efforts in the six yard box.

 

Agreed - always space for a goalscorer like Sharp in the squad although he doesn't offer a lot in out side the box.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

People seem to need a set formation, a best formation, to know how we play our best football etc. It won't happen. We'll play several formations based on opposition, form, available players and so on. Adkins wants them to be flexible. I'm sure we'll see a front 2 very often, particularly at home, and maybe 433 more if we want more possession. Lambert, Sharp and Rodriguez will all get a lot of games.

 

 

This. I would also suggest we should start Sharp due to his cracking pre-season form.

[Itchen_block4]

The striker in a good team often doesn't do much with the ball and spends most of his energy trying to get in behind defenders. At home against teams we fancy ourselves against, we can probably do that, but against City, the striker will need to get involved more to compete on the ball.

 

The 3 in the middle is something I think we'll stick with except of course in situations like last night when we just want to throw men forward to try to rescue a result. With the 3, our possession and our pressing are ever so much better. Changing from 442 to 433/451 is notoriously difficult, but the teams that do it successfully reap rewards. In the scheme of things, we've done pretty well.

[wild-saint]

Anyone who suggests Sir Rickie shouldnt start at city is clearly off thier rocker.

[The9]

It seems pretty clear that 433 or a variation of will be used next season. I don't think that we can accommodate both Lambert and Rodriguez in this formation. Jay doesn't seem effective on the left and I question Lamberts mobility in playing through the centre.

 

So it seems to me that it needs to be one or the other in order to make the system work.

 

Who do you think would be most effective playing in the middle of a front 3?

 

Good question, I'd say Rodriguez by the end of the season, but maybe not quite yet.

[The9]

Anyone who suggests Sir Rickie shouldnt start at city is clearly off thier rocker.

 

Or able to make a coherent case that he's not mobile enough to create chances for himself as a very isolated lone striker, maybe.

[shurlock]

Having not seen much of preseason, has Lallana improved us defensively and offensively by moving into a more central position and do the benefits outweigh the costs of playing Jrod etc on the left?

 

Indeed, would it be farfetched to play Lambert in Lallana's current position (its not as if Lambert can't play in a deeper position - indeed his awareness and touch equip him for such a role), pushing Jrod up top and AL back on the left?

Edited 8 August, 2012 by shurlock

[Brussels Saint]

I think the plan is to play 433 next season with the flexibility to move to 442 or the diamond as and when needs must.

 

If 433 is the route forward, I'm not sure Ricky is best suited to that, but he will contribute next season for sure. I would not be hugely surprised that through the course of the season our starting front 3 developes into Lee - Rodrigues - Guly (or new signing)

It would be strange to not start with Ricky against Man City and if it was me choosing I would definitely select him, however if NA had him on the bench, I also would not be massively shocked.

 

Long term I think we signed Rodrigues as the replacement central striker for Ricky and maybe over the season we will see that becoming clearer.

[Thedelldays]

Anyone who suggests Sir Rickie shouldnt start at city is clearly off thier rocker.

i bet he does...and I bet he does well

 

 

some players just don't do it in pre season...

sharp even said himself that previous pre seasons he NEVER scored....

[Thedelldays]

So, when does the 'experimenting' with new systems and line ups stop?

against Man City?

[david in sweden]

against Man City?

 

I would think AFTER the Man. City game .....depending on the result.

[DrunkenSaint]

Sharp upfront cause of his form with Lallana on the right Shaw on the left morgan, Davis and jwp in the centre, good balanced midfield all will get back and help and close down opposition and someone on the left to help protect fox. Lambert atm isn't cutting it and jrod might be suited better the the striker role but cause of NA playing him out of position he's not getting the goals he needs.

[jam]

Is it inconceivable that RL might be played in the deeper role..?

[up and away]

Having not seen much of preseason, has Lallana improved us defensively and offensively by moving into a more central position and do the benefits outweigh the costs of playing Jrod etc on the left?

 

Indeed, would it be farfetched to play Lambert in Lallana's current position (its not as if Lambert can't play in a deeper position - indeed his awareness and touch equip him for such a role), pushing Jrod up top and AL back on the left?

 

433 or 4231, the key to all of this will be the 451 used for the majority of the game in defending. Adkins has wisely decided we just cannot go toe to toe with the top teams and expect us to come up with points. We have to be able to defend and defend well.

 

There's a lot of sense in your thinking but I would add the following, it has to be about having the right players in that midfield that can defend. Otherwise you are just destroying everything you have set out to achieve. Ricky just does not fit the lone striker in a 451, we can only accommodate him in the midfield. But I just don't feel he is good enough to put in a good enough defensive midfield job that has to be mandatory if you need to play this system (which I am sure we do). If ManC put an extra midfielder in against us (as Italy did against England in the Euro's), I really don't see an escape unless we are geared up for it from the start with the right players.

 

Both Lallana and JRod prefer playing on the left, cutting in on their right foot to do the damage. I don't believe Lallana is as good else where but there is logic in having JRod on the left because he is the better header of the ball. As I expect most of our attacking will come from combination work with Clyne down the right, it's important to have someone to get the best from it.

[The9]

I think the plan is to play 433 next season with the flexibility to move to 442 or the diamond as and when needs must.

 

Long term I think we signed Rodriguez as the replacement central striker for Ricky and maybe over the season we will see that becoming clearer.

 

Both of these ^.

 

The switch from 4-3-3 to 4-5-1 is pretty easy, and against Arsenal we played with Chaplow at the point of a midfield 5, pushing so far up that it was 4-4-2 at times. It's not too tricky to switch between any of them - I could see Lambert at the point of a 5 man midfield with a pacier striker in front of him - or indeed as a "false 9" with Sharp and Rodriguez as the wide strikers in a front 3 at home, or Guly and Lallana/Lee as the wide midfielders pushing on past Lambert when away.

 

Though I do also think Rodriguez is a natural longer term replacement for Lambert... once people are weaned off him as some kind of talisman.

[Saint Fan CaM]

Mmm, very undecided on RL - I predicted before pre-season that he might struggle in the Prem and let his head drop...let's hope not, but his pre-season form in the new formation is somewhat muted. Also, I too am not entirely convinced JRod is comfortable on the left flank and pushing Lallana inside more is not really doing his style of play any favours. It's one thing coming up with the same team on the crest of a wave - another entirely then trying to make that team play differently. I would consider this line-up as a possibility (with Sharp and JRod interchanging perhaps)...

 

................ Morgan ............. Davis

 

......................... Sharp/Guly

 

Puncheon/SDR ... JRod/Lambo ... Lallana/Lee

[RobM]

It's not unfair to say Lambert isn't at his best this pre-season, but wasn't it the same last pre-season? My memory may be letting me down, but I seem to recall similar debates then about his ability to step-up to the NPC based on his pre-season form. Perhaps he's just one of those players that needs to be constantly worked to remain in top-form, so dips a bit when not playing.

[david in sweden]

Sharp upfront cause of his form with Lallana on the right Shaw on the left morgan, Davis and jwp in the centre, good balanced midfield all will get back and help and close down opposition and someone on the left to help protect fox. Lambert atm isn't cutting it and jrod might be suited better the the striker role but cause of NA playing him out of position he's not getting the goals he needs.

 

my choice would be start with Rickie and sub. him with Jay Rod in the second half...unless RL has scored by then.

[Dig Dig]

It's not unfair to say Lambert isn't at his best this pre-season, but wasn't it the same last pre-season? My memory may be letting me down, but I seem to recall similar debates then about his ability to step-up to the NPC based on his pre-season form. Perhaps he's just one of those players that needs to be constantly worked to remain in top-form, so dips a bit when not playing.

 

I'm a big fan of Lambert and of course think he's done brilliant for us....he's a saints legend for sure.

 

However, I'm not sure he's mobile enough to play through the middle of a front 3. We need to switch from 5 to 3 very quickly when we get the ball and I've noticed that Rickie tends to get sucked sucked deeper and deeper when we don't have the ball.

[RobM]

I'm a big fan of Lambert and of course think he's done brilliant for us....he's a saints legend for sure.

 

However, I'm not sure he's mobile enough to play through the middle of a front 3. We need to switch from 5 to 3 very quickly when we get the ball and I've noticed that Rickie tends to get sucked sucked deeper and deeper when we don't have the ball.

 

I agree, but that's because so much play goes through him that he has to drop deep to collect, hold and distribute it. It seems contradictory to asking him to also play as the single central striker with two wide players... there are times where nobody is left in the middle, far enough forward to get on the end of balls, as Lambert is deep and doesn't have the pace to match those wide players. It's not a massive and regular problem of course, but in the Prem we'll be up against defenders that will mop this up all day.

[Itchen_block4]

Having not seen much of preseason, has Lallana improved us defensively and offensively by moving into a more central position and do the benefits outweigh the costs of playing Jrod etc on the left?

 

Indeed, would it be farfetched to play Lambert in Lallana's current position (its not as if Lambert can't play in a deeper position - indeed his awareness and touch equip him for such a role), pushing Jrod up top and AL back on the left?

 

I'd say Lallana has done pretty well in the middle. It's fair to say that he doesn't get as much time and space, however he is one of the most technically gifted and intelligent players we have, so I think the advanced midfield position suits him more so than it does anyone else. Lallana's role has been to make himself available and to link the play. In the middle, he isn't often breaking beyond the defence to get chances on goal, preferring to stay deeper, keep possession and pull the strings. This is the bit I think Lambert would struggle with. He has feet like sledgehammers, a frame built for winning headers and 30 goals last season. He'll be getting right into the attacking mix whether we want him to or not and I'd worry that he wouldn't put his full commitment into making himself available in the middle. 433 wingers get a lot of chances too and Lallana's finishing leaves something to be desired. Rodriguez has played wide before and the wingers are practically strikers anyway. Lallana was born to be a creative number 10 and now we're playing with one, he'd be the first player I'd put in that role. Playing your most creative players out wide for the sole reason that you don't know what else to do with them is pretty old hat. The only Saints manager who hasn't done that with Lallana was Poortvliet and although we were crap, Lallana was probably the shining light in that sorry side.