Stacking Shelves against your human rights...?

[Thedelldays]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/01/12/graduate-cait-reilly-made-stack-shelves-poundland-without-pay_n_1201520.html

 

 

[Jonnyboy]

Bring back slave labour!

[buctootim]

That is a 'kin stupid policy though. Poundland will just employ fewer paid workers if they can get staff for free - and that helps unemployment how?

[bridge too far]

Of course, that's not what it's about. Here's what it's all about in reality

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/aug/06/unpaid-work-scheme-benefits-rebate

[Saintandy666]

I think the thread title is a little bit deceptive. I don't think you can force people into unpaid work. It's a bit silly anyways, surely giving these jobs to people damages the economy anyways... because then they are taking a job that someone else could be doing paid.

[Sheaf Saint]

The thing that sticks out most to me in that article is the comment from Poundland....

 

"We work in partnership with JobCentre Plus and other government funded organisations to implement a comprehensive work placement programme designed to provide on-the-job training for those looking to retail as a career opportunity."

 

This is just a very cleverly worded soundbite aimed at making the public believe they are doing this for the benefit of the UK's unemployed and the wider economy, rather than just wanting some cheap labour.

 

I used to work in retail management many years ago for a national chain, and the only way that I could possibly maintain the required level of staff cover while keeping within my wage budget was if I had a 16-17 year-old on the old YTS scheme where they worked full-time while doing a NVQ (Not Very Qualified) certificate and being paid the same amount as they would receive if they were on the dole. This was the same across all of our stores. Essentially we would keep them for a year, or however long it took them to complete their NVQ, and then tell them that there wasn't a full-time position available and let them go, only to replace them with another willing trainee on the same terms.

 

I'm pretty certain this was standard practise among most of the major retail chains, and this was in the mid-late 90s during the boom years. Given the current climate and the finer margins that retailers are working to as they try to remain competitive while keeping their financial heads above water, I have absolutely no doubt that they are using this government initiative to obtain some free labour, with no intention of offering permanent roles to the people that are sent to them by the Job Centre.

[gaz]

Did this while unemployed, via a training company called A4e. No prospect of job at the end of it, expected to work a full day, doing the same roles as regular staff, no special training, but paid JSA to do the role. At the time I worked it out to be £45.50 a week, divided by 5 days, divided by 8 hours. Worked out to be £1.13 an hour, whereas minimum wage at the time was a bit above £5 an hour. Basically slave labour. I wanted a job, I wanted to be paid a fair wage for a fair days work. Asked the store manager where I was placed if there was a full role for me as I was obviously capable and qualified for the job, and was told nope, they get a subsidy from the Government for taking on people from training companies so its in their interest to take them on, at low rates.

 

And that was with a large DIY chain which has now gone bust.

[Sheaf Saint]

And that was with a large DIY chain which has now gone bust.

 

Focus?

[Jonnyboy]

Did this while unemployed, via a training company called A4e. No prospect of job at the end of it, expected to work a full day, doing the same roles as regular staff, no special training, but paid JSA to do the role. At the time I worked it out to be £45.50 a week, divided by 5 days, divided by 8 hours. Worked out to be £1.13 an hour, whereas minimum wage at the time was a bit above £5 an hour. Basically slave labour. I wanted a job, I wanted to be paid a fair wage for a fair days work. Asked the store manager where I was placed if there was a full role for me as I was obviously capable and qualified for the job, and was told nope, they get a subsidy from the Government for taking on people from training companies so its in their interest to take them on, at low rates.

 

And that was with a large DIY chain which has now gone bust.

 

I hope you shoplifted them blind.

[Frank's cousin]

Simple solution to this - companies can only get the subsidy and get around minimum wage restrictions if tehy provide approved and comprehensive training that 'stacks' up and offers transferrrable skills...

[gaz]

Focus?

 

Yes.

[tpbury]

Did the fact you had beeen working help you get your next job?

[dune]

Socialist types in moaning when they've got to do some work shocker.

[gaz]

Did the fact you had beeen working help you get your next job?

 

I can't say it did. If you're on JSA for more than 12 months, then they place you with a training company automatically. I was with A4e on a 6 month program, but it was about a month before it became clear what the situation was (working for pittance while they creamed the rest off the top). I complained to the Training Manager at A4e but was basically told that JSA would be stopped if I didn't attend the placement or leave Focus to go to another placement (same situation with wages and work though). Complained to JCP about it, they said that was the procedure and A4e was right, JSA would be stopped.

 

I thought about it and decided to leave as it was pointless me being stuck working for £1.13 an hour without a job at the end of it, when my time would have been better spent improving my CV, writing a better cover letter and getting applications filled (which is what I thought A4e would do...naiive me). I wasn't a dole dosser, I wasn't on JSA to claim £90 a fortnight to sit around drinking cider on the park with my mates, I was on it because I was made redundant and needed the money to stay with my head above water over my commitments. A lot of people automatically assume that if you're claiming, you're a waste of space with no hope of finding work, and crucially, they assume you WANT to claim. Trust me, that was not the case for me. It was humiliating and I didn't want to be there every fortnight, I wanted to be at work, earning fair money for a fair days work.

 

At the time, when signing on, the process went like this:

 

ME: I'd like to sign on please

JCP: Sure, have you applied for any jobs in the last 2 weeks?

ME: Yes (they didn't check if you had or not though)

JCP: OK, sign here.

 

Occasionally you'd get someone who would talk you through the process of applying, ways to improve your portfolio, but they tended to be temp staff at the JCP office.

 

In the end I found work off my own back and left the whole scheme, I felt like the JCP didn't do enough to help the clients (just meeting bare minimum set out in their guidelines), and I felt like A4e was designed to make money off the government by acting like brokers, finding cheap labour for businesses, making them money as well as A4e money too.

[Lord Duckhunter]

If used correctly these sort of schemes can benefit both employers and employees, but like anything it can be abused and that's when the problems start.

 

From an employers prospective you can get a feel for someone and whether you would employ them full time. I used to use agencies like this. I would request staff and then cream off the best ones to work permanently.It's so costly to employ and then get rid of useless layabouts. The problem obviously comes when employers are using this as cheap labour, and have no intention of taking people on. My opinion is this is counter productive. I would rather pay a higher wage and get a committed and dedicated member of staff ( and we're only talking min wage levels, not massive £'s) , than keep having to retrain loads of different bods sent down by the dole office.

 

I would also look more favourable on someone who had been on one of these schemes, than someone who had sat on their backsides picking up their dole. It would have a bearing on any recruitment decisions I made.

 

What do the employees get from it? 3 things in my opinion; It looks better on their CV, they get something to get up to do and will keep them out of a downward spiral (which can happen) and they also get a chance (however remote) to impress someone. We haven't recruited full time people for a number of years, but I took a guy on for 3 months fixed term to do a job for me. He was fantastic, hardworking, reliable, keen and a decent guy. I persuaded the top brass to keep him on and offer him a F/T contract, even though that was never the intention.I did not want him walking out and felt he could add real value to our business. That could happen with these schemes.

[dune]

I can't say it did. If you're on JSA for more than 12 months, then they place you with a training company automatically. I was with A4e on a 6 month program, but it was about a month before it became clear what the situation was (working for pittance while they creamed the rest off the top). I complained to the Training Manager at A4e but was basically told that JSA would be stopped if I didn't attend the placement or leave Focus to go to another placement (same situation with wages and work though). Complained to JCP about it, they said that was the procedure and A4e was right, JSA would be stopped.

 

I thought about it and decided to leave as it was pointless me being stuck working for £1.13 an hour without a job at the end of it, when my time would have been better spent improving my CV, writing a better cover letter and getting applications filled (which is what I thought A4e would do...naiive me). I wasn't a dole dosser, I wasn't on JSA to claim £90 a fortnight to sit around drinking cider on the park with my mates, I was on it because I was made redundant and needed the money to stay with my head above water over my commitments. A lot of people automatically assume that if you're claiming, you're a waste of space with no hope of finding work, and crucially, they assume you WANT to claim. Trust me, that was not the case for me. It was humiliating and I didn't want to be there every fortnight, I wanted to be at work, earning fair money for a fair days work.

 

At the time, when signing on, the process went like this:

 

ME: I'd like to sign on please

JCP: Sure, have you applied for any jobs in the last 2 weeks?

ME: Yes (they didn't check if you had or not though)

JCP: OK, sign here.

 

Occasionally you'd get someone who would talk you through the process of applying, ways to improve your portfolio, but they tended to be temp staff at the JCP office.

 

In the end I found work off my own back and left the whole scheme, I felt like the JCP didn't do enough to help the clients (just meeting bare minimum set out in their guidelines), and I felt like A4e was designed to make money off the government by acting like brokers, finding cheap labour for businesses, making them money as well as A4e money too.

 

You say all that, but if you had wanted work you could have got work just like that by working for an agency. I applaud the current system of sending slobs out to work for a pittance, if they don't like it then get a f/cking job.

[View From The Top]

A4E directors are likely to be doing some jail time for serious fraud regarding their government employment contracts.

[bridge too far]

A4E directors are likely to be doing some jail time for serious fraud regarding their government employment contracts.

 

Good gracious! So that's G4S, A4E - two companies failing in one way or another to carry out work previously done by the public sector! And this government is, apparently, planning to sell off our Blood Plasma services to a private contractor, along with other parts of the NHS. http://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/save-our-blood-tranfusion-service

 

This fills me with confidence - not

[tpbury]

I can't say it did. If you're on JSA for more than 12 months, then they place you with a training company automatically. I was with A4e on a 6 month program, but it was about a month before it became clear what the situation was (working for pittance while they creamed the rest off the top). I complained to the Training Manager at A4e but was basically told that JSA would be stopped if I didn't attend the placement or leave Focus to go to another placement (same situation with wages and work though). Complained to JCP about it, they said that was the procedure and A4e was right, JSA would be stopped.

 

I thought about it and decided to leave as it was pointless me being stuck working for £1.13 an hour without a job at the end of it, when my time would have been better spent improving my CV, writing a better cover letter and getting applications filled (which is what I thought A4e would do...naiive me). I wasn't a dole dosser, I wasn't on JSA to claim £90 a fortnight to sit around drinking cider on the park with my mates, I was on it because I was made redundant and needed the money to stay with my head above water over my commitments. A lot of people automatically assume that if you're claiming, you're a waste of space with no hope of finding work, and crucially, they assume you WANT to claim. Trust me, that was not the case for me. It was humiliating and I didn't want to be there every fortnight, I wanted to be at work, earning fair money for a fair days work.

 

At the time, when signing on, the process went like this:

 

ME: I'd like to sign on please

JCP: Sure, have you applied for any jobs in the last 2 weeks?

ME: Yes (they didn't check if you had or not though)

JCP: OK, sign here.

 

Occasionally you'd get someone who would talk you through the process of applying, ways to improve your portfolio, but they tended to be temp staff at the JCP office.

 

In the end I found work off my own back and left the whole scheme, I felt like the JCP didn't do enough to help the clients (just meeting bare minimum set out in their guidelines), and I felt like A4e was designed to make money off the government by acting like brokers, finding cheap labour for businesses, making them money as well as A4e money too.

 

Don't worry mate, I ask coz I've been there - at least in having to go through the talking to people who talk like a menu type. I would say, however, that having done 1.13 an hour for a period of time is better than just claiming. Not having a job is really the s4ittest place to be and will get more so. Employers don't necessarily look only for skills - they look for 'reliability' - unless you're a superstar, turning up every day on time is a big deal, so if you can demonstrate that, it gives an advatage, even at crap wages. So that rubbish time on rubbish money gives you 'kudos'on your CV, and you should emphasise that in your next job app. Work is about 'sucking it up' until you get into a position to 'give it out'. A4e sound like nobs.

[bridge too far]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/aug/08/prisoners-call-centre-fired-staff?CMP=SOCNETTXT6966

[pap]

Made a lot of very similar points in the other thread we had on this, but to summarise, a disgusting practice that demeans the unemployed and makes finding work for those who are actually looking a feckton harder.

[Lord Duckhunter]

a disgusting practice that demeans the unemployed

 

How does working for your state handout demean people?

[pap]

How does working for your state handout demean people?

 

Would you do it if you were unemployed?

[buctootim]

Would you do it if you were unemployed?

 

I wouldn't - and thats the whole point. You only claim benefits and work for free if you really, really need to. Ive no problem with people who are unemployed after say 6 months working for benefits. It makes no sense to offer that 'free work' to companies though - they will just reduce their paid staff.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Would you do it if you were unemployed?

 

If I had the chance to impress a potential employer, by working in one of the schemes I would jump at the chance. I could also go into interviews telling the interviwer that I had joined one of these schemes whilst unemployed, and personally I think that would give me an advantage over some body who just sat on their arse picking up their dole.

[pap]

If I had the chance to impress a potential employer, by working in one of the schemes I would jump at the chance. I could also go into interviews telling the interviwer that I had joined one of these schemes whilst unemployed, and personally I think that would give me an advantage over some body who just sat on their arse picking up their dole.

 

So at your age, after having paid into the system for all of your life, you were mandated to work at £1.13 an hour, you'd be happy enough with that?

 

Pull the other one

[JPTCount]

done this myself at HCC for 8 weeks last summer, did what I was told, slogged my arse off, got a banging reference, turned up at job centre after and they asked me to do another 8 weeks at the job centre in Basingstoke, it is a joke....

 

being on jsa was the most soul destroying thing I've ever experienced. I'll copy n paste my letter to dwp if anyones interested, I even got a 2 page response from the minister himself, basically just confirming how out of touch a conservative mp is with the unemployed youth.

[JPTCount]

If I had the chance to impress a potential employer, by working in one of the schemes I would jump at the chance. I could also go into interviews telling the interviwer that I had joined one of these schemes whilst unemployed, and personally I think that would give me an advantage over some body who just sat on their arse picking up their dole.

 

been there, done that, didn't even get a t shirt

[mcjwills]

What about all the other expenses that go with these schemes, fuel or bus/train fares to get there, meals and snacks why you are there, by the time you take all those into consideration, I would estimate you would be lucky to be on more than 50p an hour. Why the hell have we paid thousands each year into the system to get shafted by these sort of schemes. If we are going to have work for benefit schemes, at least have it for the benifit of the local community not some tight arsed company that wants free labour.

[pap]

It's complete crap. Most of the support for it is predicated on the false belief that it's only long-term work dodgers that'll be roped into it. Thanks JPTCount for sharing your experience.

 

It's only really a good deal for the companies benefiting from free labour and legalised slavery outfits like A4E, who by the way, make all their money from the taxpayer.

 

So what's better? Paying benefits to the unemployed? Or paying benefits to the unemployed, paying a wedge to A4E and removing millions of hours of paid work out of the economy?

[Viking Warrior]

It's people like this and money grabbing lawyers whose make a mockery of the human rights act . The sooner it's repealed or altered to stop these frivolous and vexatious claims being made the better for this country and genuine human rights abuse .

[badgerx16]

A4e sound like nobs.

 

They are, but I cannot elaborate on a public forum.

[JPTCount]

It's complete crap. Most of the support for it is predicated on the false belief that it's only long-term work dodgers that'll be roped into it. Thanks JPTCount for sharing your experience.

 

It's only really a good deal for the companies benefiting from free labour and legalised slavery outfits like A4E, who by the way, make all their money from the taxpayer.

 

So what's better? Paying benefits to the unemployed? Or paying benefits to the unemployed, paying a wedge to A4E and removing millions of hours of paid work out of the economy?

 

thats just the tip, my advisor said they had two companies, she couldn't name either, and they were given people at random, so even as the consumer I had no choice, even just to choose the better performing recruiters or one that specialized in an industry I had interest in.

 

mine was done directly through jsa & the council, but even then jsa refused to pay for my crb check having already agreed to, so I worked illegally on sensitive data for 3 weeks until someone high up found out, so they moved me to somewhere it didn't matter. but I dont blame the council tho, they are having cuts, have the sane work load, if not more, and get offered free work from jsa, id take it if I was in that position.

 

and in regards to travel, they refunded my bus tickets if I had proof of purchase but had no system to refund fuel.

[JackFrost]

A friend of mine worked over 20 years in the construction industry only for his back to decide very abruptly it had enough one day. He ended up having to change his career (he's going into accountancy) and spent about 2 months on JSA before withdrawing his claim as he could afford to and he considered the jobcentre a complete waste of time.

 

When he first applied the jobcentre arranged a interview time for him that when he got down there, he discovered was 20 mins before the jobcentre actually opened. Then when he got in he had to wait another 45 mins for the interview so it ended up being over an hour after he was told it was going to be. In the subsequent meetings all his adviser did was look on the database for jobs (which he could do himself on the direct.gov.uk website) and nitpick on a different technicality every time as to why he could get his benefit stopped if he didn't do something. The adviser also strongly implied something one week and then stated a completely contradictory statement another week, and started putting him forward for jobs (based on his previous experience) that involved heavy lifting

 

Eventually he began a college course that coincidentally took place on the same day he had his JSA meetings. As the jobcentre categorically refused to see him on any other day/later on the same day he withdrew his claim. He said it was a real eye opener and genuinely felt sorry for all the genuine claimants if that was what they had to deal with

[Sheaf Saint]

A friend of mine worked over 20 years in the construction industry only for his back to decide very abruptly it had enough one day. He ended up having to change his career (he's going into accountancy) and spent about 2 months on JSA before withdrawing his claim as he could afford to and he considered the jobcentre a complete waste of time.

 

When he first applied the jobcentre arranged a interview time for him that when he got down there, he discovered was 20 mins before the jobcentre actually opened. Then when he got in he had to wait another 45 mins for the interview so it ended up being over an hour after he was told it was going to be. In the subsequent meetings all his adviser did was look on the database for jobs (which he could do himself on the direct.gov.uk website) and nitpick on a different technicality every time as to why he could get his benefit stopped if he didn't do something. The adviser also strongly implied something one week and then stated a completely contradictory statement another week, and started putting him forward for jobs (based on his previous experience) that involved heavy lifting

 

Eventually he began a college course that coincidentally took place on the same day he had his JSA meetings. As the jobcentre categorically refused to see him on any other day/later on the same day he withdrew his claim. He said it was a real eye opener and genuinely felt sorry for all the genuine claimants if that was what they had to deal with

 

This sounds all too familiar to me. I was made redundant about 4 years ago, 1 week before the global banking crisis, and the uncertainty surrounding that meant nobody was recruiting at that time. One job I was going for I never heard back from and found out from the agent that they had decided to withdraw the vacancy, and shortly after that pretty much all vacancies in my industry just dried up completely.

 

The Job Centre were completely useless. First I had to have a telephone interview where they asked me loads and loads of questions that were often repeated with different wording and appeared to be designed to catch me out if I was making a false claim. When I did go in to speak to someone it became obvious that they treat every claimant with the same level of suspicion. I talked with the adviser about my experience/qualifications etc... and listed everything I had already done to try and get a job including jobs I had already applied for. I clearly knew a hell of a lot better than him how to search for jobs in my industry but that didn't stop him from belittling me and making ridiculous suggestions. He went on the job search screen while I was sitting with him and found a vacancy from a company in Rotherham who were so vague in describing what the job involved that it could only have been door-to-door vacuum cleaner selling, which I told him straight I was not prepared to do because having experienced that kind of industry when I was 16-17 I know full well they get you out on the streets and only pay you if you sell anything before getting rid of you.

 

After 3 months I was told I had to attend a group session at the central JC in Sheffield where I was lumped together with a group of layabouts and career-claimants and given a pointless lecture on how to search for jobs in the local paper, write application letters etc... it was the most patronising waste of time you could ever imagine.

 

The whole experience of being unemployed and claiming JSA was infuriating. It wasn't like I couldn't be arsed to work - I hated being unemployed and was ready to accept any kind of work (within reason) to start earning some money again. I ended up doing a 6-month contract in a call centre, I was that desperate to work, but the attitudes among the JC staff were usually very patronising and often nothing short of insulting. I sincerely hope I never find myself in a similar situation again.

[Redbul]

How does working for your state handout demean people?

 

There are plenty of jobs that could be done in the local community that could be done by the long term unemployed rather than exploiting them to generate more profits for business. By using those able to work in the community the state benefits from state claimants and therefore gets a return on the benefit money it gives them.

[JackFrost]

On C4 right now there's a program titled dole queue cheats or something but it's actually very damning of the job centre.

 

So far they've had a couple of guys doing experiments where one of them wrote his shopping list where he was supposed to provide proof of how he was looking for work and it wasn't even checked. Another women organised her own unpaid work experience and had her benefit stopped because the centre didn't bother to check with the company about the arrangement.

[Jonnyboy]

My mate is unemployed and made the mistake last week of doing a couple of night shifts with autistic kids. He (now realises stupidly) advised the job centre so they could reduce his claim for this month and they turned round and said it would take a month to process and he wouldnt get any JSA or housing benefits for this month!

No wonder people lie.

[gaz]

Think the thread title is misleading. ''Stacking Shelves against your human rights...?'', more like ''Working for vastly less wage than the person alongside you with equal skill against your human rights...?''

[Thedelldays]

Think the thread title is misleading. ''Stacking Shelves against your human rights...?'', more like ''Working for vastly less wage than the person alongside you with equal skill against your human rights...?''

 

Is that against your human rights?

Human rights we are talking about here