Lords reform to be abandoned - Are the Lib Dems...

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

And you'd probably also rather that a mechanic, who didn't go to University, funds your entire degree through his taxes too!!!!

 

And said mechnanic would like his kids to be taught by university educted teachers and receive medical attention from university educated doctors and nurses. That's a woeful argument even if said mechanic was a net tax payers which might not be the case anyway especially if he's got kids.

[Colinjb]

Personally I was in favour of an increase in higher rate tax (and I say that as a higher rate tax payer). I would have respected Clegg a lot more if he'd have offered to repay the cost of his higher eduction.

 

That would have been a better option, but it then becomes a fine line. Raise taxes too much and it can discourage enterprise etc.

 

As for the point in bold, not sure I follow.... You were expecting Clegg to specifically comment on his own student debt?

[capitalsaint]

And said mechnanic would like his kids to be taught by university educted teachers and receive medical attention from university educated doctors and nurses. That's a woeful argument even if said mechanic was a net tax payers which might not be the case anyway especially if he's got kids.

 

He's single.

[View From The Top]

And you'd probably also rather that a mechanic, who didn't go to University, funds your entire degree through his taxes too!!!!

 

I'm sure said mechanic benefits from those who went to university.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Hard to see many mechanics being impacted by a increase to higher rate tax.

[capitalsaint]

Depends on the trickle down.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

As for the point in bold, not sure I follow.... You were expecting Clegg to specifically comment on his own student debt?

 

It was in reference to the likes of Clegg enjoying higher eduction for free and then voting to bring in charges of £9k a year. Some what cheeky IMO.

[saintfully]

Depends on the trickle down.

 

You don't still believe that nonsense do you? How about Father Christmas and faeries?????

[capitalsaint]

A mechanic who fixes luxury cars could well get less business if the top rate tax earner had fewer pounds to spend on the upkeep.

 

Boom and, just for you, whooooosh!!!

[trousers]

Why do some people struggle to distinguish between a 'pledge' made under one set of circumstances and the reality of having to do something different under another set of circumstances?

[bridge too far]

A mechanic who fixes luxury cars could well get less business if the top rate tax earner had fewer pounds to spend on the upkeep.

 

Boom and, just for you, whooooosh!!!

 

Surely this has to be balanced by the 'trickle up' effect? Those not getting pay rises / having to pay more for less / being made redundant not being able to afford to have a mechanic service the car as often as before?

[pap]

Apologies for the shameless self-promotion, but I did a piece on the Lib Dems in May 2011.

 

http://frigsociety.com/2011/05/10/where-next-for-the-liberal-democrats/

 

On some levels, I do feel sorry for the Lib Dems. They are not a small party. If our Parliament was decided by popular vote, they'd have over 150 seats. They have around 50 under FPTP.

[dune]

On some levels, I do feel sorry for the Lib Dems. They are not a small party. If our Parliament was decided by popular vote, they'd have over 150 seats. They have around 50 under FPTP.

 

What a shame.

[View From The Top]

 

On some levels, I do feel sorry for the Lib Dems. They are not a small party. If our Parliament was decided by popular vote, they'd have over 150 seats. They have around 50 under FPTP.

 

Fu.ck 'em.

 

They sold their soul & now they are getting their rewards.

[pap]

Fu.ck 'em.

 

They sold their soul & now they are getting their rewards.

 

I don't blame them for entering the coalition, but they were nuts to stay in it after their true role was revealed.

[Saintandy666]

Fu.ck 'em.

 

They sold their soul & now they are getting their rewards.

 

They didn't sell their soul at all. 75% of their manifesto has been implemented. I think the problem is, because the Lib Dems passionately believe in PR and so by conjunction a more consensus based politics. They have been very disciplined thus far. They haven't complained nearly as much as the Tories who would do well to remember they didn't win the general election and are only in power because of the Lib Dems. They should stick to the coalition agreement. You can't suddenly change your mind on it.

 

It is very hard on the Lib Dems though. As Pap pointed out, they should if the voting system was fair, have a lot more seats than they do. They could have stayed on the sidelines and sniped, but they did the brave thing and entered coalition to get things done even if they knew it could be electoral suicide. I think in the long term it'll lead to a more consolidated and loyal Lib Dem vote more aware of what they actually are and stand for. Too many people thought they were some ultra left wing party or something. Coalition means compromise, and they aren't going to get their way on everything, but they have got through a lot that they can be proud of.

[Saintandy666]

I don't blame them for entering the coalition, but they were nuts to stay in it after their true role was revealed.

 

There's not really an escape now. I expect after the next election, another hung parliament with the Lib Dems on about 25ish seats holding the balance of power. They will probably go into coalition with Labour which is what I suspect they expected before the election. However, when it became clear that wasn't possible or constitutionally right, they did the correct thing and put aside their differences with the Tories to attempt to form a stable government.

[hypochondriac]

They didn't sell their soul at all. 75% of their manifesto has been implemented. I think the problem is, because the Lib Dems passionately believe in PR and so by conjunction a more consensus based politics. They have been very disciplined thus far. They haven't complained nearly as much as the Tories who would do well to remember they didn't win the general election and are only in power because of the Lib Dems. They should stick to the coalition agreement. You can't suddenly change your mind on it.

 

It is very hard on the Lib Dems though. As Pap pointed out, they should if the voting system was fair, have a lot more seats than they do. They could have stayed on the sidelines and sniped, but they did the brave thing and entered coalition to get things done even if they knew it could be electoral suicide. I think in the long term it'll lead to a more consolidated and loyal Lib Dem vote more aware of what they actually are and stand for. Too many people thought they were some ultra left wing party or something. Coalition means compromise, and they aren't going to get their way on everything, but they have got through a lot that they can be proud of.

 

They are.

[Saintandy666]

They are.

 

Then you know absolutely nothing about the Lib Dems. They were formed as a centrist party. Nick Clegg himself said to me it was evident people perceived the Lib Dems as some sort of 'SWP' equivalent which was ridiculous.

[View From The Top]

They didn't sell their soul at all.

 

And pompey could really afford all of their superstars.

[hypochondriac]

Then you know absolutely nothing about the Lib Dems. They were formed as a centrist party. Nick Clegg himself said to me it was evident people perceived the Lib Dems as some sort of 'SWP' equivalent which was ridiculous.

 

I've looked at their policies. Thankfully the majority of the ones I disagree with they have been unable to implement.

[Saintandy666]

And pompey could really afford all of their superstars.

 

Answer my actual post! It's all very well putting that remark, but what do you have to say to the facts? 75% of their manifesto has been implemented.

[Saintandy666]

I've looked at their policies. Thankfully the majority of the ones I disagree with they have been unable to implement.

 

Yes, but their policies aren't ultra-left wing even if they are left wing of your own personal views.

 

They aren't ultra left wing. Their views are based on the principles of Social Liberal Democracy. So a fair constitution giving as much say to the people as possible, so that includes 100% elected parliament and voting system that actually reflects how the country as a whole has voted. And then a state which enables everyone to compete equally. Not a hand out, but a hand-up to those who are unfortunate in their circumstances! They aren't evil.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Answer my actual post! It's all very well putting that remark, but what do you have to say to the facts? 75% of their manifesto has been implemented.

 

According to the Lib Dems.... well even if true they'll still be perceived as a party that got shafted by the Tories.

[Saintandy666]

According to the Lib Dems.... well even if true they'll still be perceived as a party that got shafted by the Tories.

 

I think it was a UCL study which said 75%. I agree with you that's how they are perceived and I can't see any way out of that perception and the Lib Dems are going to get a massive thrashing at the next election. I think they will lose over half of their seats down to 25ish. But they will have learnt and lot and I think gained more solid supporters rather than the somewhat flimsy support of recent elections.

 

What this news really means however is PM Miliband.

[revolution saint]

Way I see it is the Lib Dems really had two things they could have obtained out of a coalition; one was the cache of being able to say they'd been in govt, taken the tough decisions etc and the other was electoral reform. They've not really done well on either but it's electoral reform that's really let them down. If they'd come out of this term with proportional representation then, for them, that would have been success and, whether you agree with the system or not, it would have helped them even if it resulted in short term pain. Instead they got a half hearted referendum on something that wasn't even their preferred system. At the moment it's hard to see what the benefit for the lib dems has been.

[View From The Top]

Answer my actual post! It's all very well putting that remark, but what do you have to say to the facts? 75% of their manifesto has been implemented.

 

It's the 25% that they haven't is what matters as it was all the BIG stuff. Add to then the reversal on tuition fees & you have the perfect recipe for being wiped out.

 

Electorial reform = FAIL Lords Reform = FAIL Tuition Fees = FAIL.

 

End of.

[solentstars]

There's not really an escape now. I expect after the next election, another hung parliament with the Lib Dems on about 25ish seats holding the balance of power. They will probably go into coalition with Labour which is what I suspect they expected before the election. However, when it became clear that wasn't possible or constitutionally right, they did the correct thing and put aside their differences with the Tories to attempt to form a stable government.

 

Agree and they got the tax threshold raised before you pay tax on the lowest paid and get it to 10500 I prefer centrist politics to stop the extremes of left and right which has failed this country .

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk 2

[Colinjb]

Electorial reform = FAIL Lords Reform = FAIL Tuition Fees = FAIL.

 

End of.

 

In fairness on Electoral reform, they were given a referendum. And quite directly told where to go by the electorate.

[Saintandy666]

Agree and they got the tax threshold raised before you pay tax on the lowest paid and get it to 10500 I prefer centrist politics to stop the extremes of left and right which has failed this country .

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk 2

 

A lot of what the Lib Dems have achieved is moderation of tory policies, but it's hard to sell that to the public.

[Saintandy666]

In fairness on Electoral reform, they were given a referendum. And quite directly told where to go by the electorate.

 

But AV wasn't what they wanted the Referendum on. I think if it was a referendum on PR, it would have been won. There were a lot of erroneous arguments about AV though, for example the cost argument which the No campaign pretty much admitted was a lie after they won.

[Saint_clark]

So if you don't support the LDs you're either thick or ideological? And I thought the customer was always right......

 

As somebody who works in retail, I can tell you the customer is hardly ever right.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

As somebody who works in retail, I can tell you the customer is hardly ever right.

 

is that because you sell a **** product which they still buy? I meant in the sense that any business or indeed political party has to give the customer (or voter) what they want or they won't be successful.

[trousers]

@PennyMordauntMP: #newsnight someone ought to show Hughes Clegg's select cmte evidence on HoL reform. "No quid pro quo" on boundaries. Unbelievable!

[alpine_saint]

...just the Tory party's b***h? Or do they some credibility left?

 

£10K tax threshold aside, they appear to have either backtracked on every stance they have taken and have either lost or capitulated in every major policy or principle they held dear.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19149212

 

I'm not looking to start a anti-Lib Dems political thread here.

 

I'm interested to know how people think they will fare in the next and subsequent elections. How do staunch Lib Dem supporters feel about the party?

 

And what about all the stuff the Tories had to drop because of a handful of power-hungry egotistical LibDems throwing the spanner in the works at every turn.

 

The Human Rights Act, or whatever it is called, is suffocating the country.

 

The Armed Forces are starved of personnel and equipement so we can send money to countries with space programmes.

 

No proper debate on membership of the EU.

[alpine_saint]

not bad for a traditionally small party and one that come 3rd.....

 

the minute they don't get someone that is fairly publicised, they lot go mental.....than say the tories want it all their way etc....

 

Doesnt have to be publicised; when the LibDems dont get their way they leak it to the press anyway.

[saintbletch]

Why do some people struggle to distinguish between a 'pledge' made under one set of circumstances and the reality of having to do something different under another set of circumstances?

 

 

I really think tuition fees are wrong

 

I agree that sometimes pragmatism has to win over pledge. But when these pledges come from apparent principles, I think the electorate has every right to remember the abandonning of these principles and to hold their politicians to account at the next opportunity.

 

We (Liberal Democrats) will resist, vote against, campaign against any lifting of the cap

 

You can u-turn on policy, but surely not deeply held conviction and principles? After all, most of us I'm sure vote for the principles behind parties as much as their then current policies.

 

Clegg gives assurances about tuition fees - safe in the knowledge (he thinks) that he will never be given the reigns of power to implement these policies. He leaves the audience in no doubt about the principles behind the policy. He thinks tuition fees are wrong.

 

If someone asked me if, having watched these videos and with Clegg as deputy leader of a coalition government, whether he would allow tuition fees to increase, I would say "over his dead body".

 

Politically, I think that may come to pass.

 

@PennyMordauntMP: #newsnight someone ought to show Hughes Clegg's select cmte evidence on HoL reform. "No quid pro quo" on boundaries. Unbelievable!

 

Why do some people struggle to distinguish between a 'pledge' made under one set of circumstances and the reality of having to do something different under another set of circumstances?

 

Edited 7 August, 2012 by saintbletch
Too much smart-arsery and not enough grammar.

[saintbletch]

[saintbletch]

[saintbletch]

And what about all the stuff the Tories had to drop because of a handful of power-hungry egotistical LibDems throwing the spanner in the works at every turn.

 

The Human Rights Act, or whatever it is called, is suffocating the country.

 

The Armed Forces are starved of personnel and equipement so we can send money to countries with space programmes.

 

No proper debate on membership of the EU.

 

Good points alpine_saint. For what it's worth I think the balancing role that the Lib Dems are playing in the coalition is much needed.

 

But I wonder if they are not making the biggest sacrifice, a slow and drawn-out political suicide that will see them in the wilderness for years.

 

As important as those things are to you, I can't help thinking that they will be little succour to grass-roots Lib Dems who have seen electoral reform, HoL reform, and tuition fees go up in smoke.

 

Perhaps getting the other 75% of manifesto commitments and a referendum on electoral reform counts as a victory? That's why I started the thread. I was interested to see where people stood now.

[Eastcowzer]

Bye bye boundary reforms. The conservative hierarchy are not going to be happy. This could be terminal.

 

At least the I.o.W with its 110,000 voters, (Britains largest constituency by numbers),will be able to be served by just one MP, who currently, seems quite happy to do so.

[moonraker]

Good points alpine_saint. For what it's worth I think the balancing role that the Lib Dems are playing in the coalition is much needed.

 

But I wonder if they are not making the biggest sacrifice, a slow and drawn-out political suicide that will see them in the wilderness for years.

 

As important as those things are to you, I can't help thinking that they will be little succour to grass-roots Lib Dems who have seen electoral reform, HoL reform, and tuition fees go up in smoke.

 

Perhaps getting the other 75% of manifesto commitments and a referendum on electoral reform counts as a victory? That's why I started the thread. I was interested to see where people stood now.

 

The aid programme is essentilly a tory policy yes the LDs support it but it would be there anyway. And what has it to do with armed forces equipment. The UK armed forces currently have the best equipment available, I speak daily to members of the armed forces and whilst there will always be grumbling kit is a minor issue on the other hand force reductions are areal concern, and as history tells us vote tory and you reduce the size of the armed forces.

[alpine_saint]

The aid programme is essentilly a tory policy yes the LDs support it but it would be there anyway. And what has it to do with armed forces equipment. The UK armed forces currently have the best equipment available, I speak daily to members of the armed forces and whilst there will always be grumbling kit is a minor issue on the other hand force reductions are areal concern, and as history tells us vote tory and you reduce the size of the armed forces.

 

Do we send aid to Russia and India or not ?

 

Defence policy and foreign policy are intertwined, the aid is going to the wrong part of the budget.

 

I have no doubt the "kit" (in the broadest sense of the word to include ships and aircraft, not just bullet-proof vests) quality is good (although costing 3 times original procuement plans), but there isnt enough of it, just like there isnt enough of the people to use it.

 

We are an island nation and our surface fleet is about 1/3 of the size it was during the Falklands War.

 

Very, very, very bored of the shoulder-shruging "we do our job" mentality.

[Thedelldays]

The aid programme is essentilly a tory policy yes the LDs support it but it would be there anyway. And what has it to do with armed forces equipment. The UK armed forces currently have the best equipment available, I speak daily to members of the armed forces and whilst there will always be grumbling kit is a minor issue on the other hand force reductions are areal concern, and as history tells us vote tory and you reduce the size of the armed forces.

 

Uk armed forces have the best equipment available

 

 

HAHAHAHAHA

As someone who has been on the front line, please don't make me laugh

[moonraker]

Do we send aid to Russia and India or not ?

 

Defence policy and foreign policy are intertwined, the aid is going to the wrong part of the budget.

 

I have no doubt the "kit" (in the broadest sense of the word to include ships and aircraft, not just bullet-proof vests) quality is good (although costing 3 times original procuement plans), but there isnt enough of it, just like there isnt enough of the people to use it.

 

We are an island nation and our surface fleet is about 1/3 of the size it was during the Falklands War.

 

Very, very, very bored of the shoulder-shruging "we do our job" mentality.

 

Your comment on the size of the armed forces is spot on, I am no shoulder shrugger, unfortunately no party understands the importance of strong properly constituted armed forces, the Tory’s happen to have the worst record on cuts, not just this incarnation but all post war Tory govs. My point on aid was that it is a cross bench view not a LD only view.

[dune]

Uk armed forces have the best equipment available

 

 

HAHAHAHAHA

As someone who has been on the front line, please don't make me laugh

 

tut tut tut, you should know better than to contradict a middle class socialist housewife.

[moonraker]

Uk armed forces have the best equipment available

 

 

HAHAHAHAHA

As someone who has been on the front line, please don't make me laugh

 

Well as I said I speak daily to your colleagues in the Navy and Army (rarely the RAF) who have also been on the front line, on land and at sea (above and below the water), and they tell it differently. I can assure you what you have today is far superior not just in technical capability but also in quality to what I and my oppos put up with in the 70’s and 80’s.

[alpine_saint]

Uk armed forces have the best equipment available

 

 

HAHAHAHAHA

As someone who has been on the front line, please don't make me laugh

 

Give an example, troll.

[Thedelldays]

Give an example, troll.

 

Ok. Just off the top of my head. Without going into elements that don't need to be said on here

 

HMS Astute was already way out of date in many aspects way before it was finished. It will need another refit just to bring it up to around 2005/6 standards

 

Just one element. It fitted with a paper chart system.... They have been done away with ages ago. But because of the contract that was issued, it was not able to be changed during build

 

Some of it comma systems are way out of date... I could go on, but ŷou get my drift

[moonraker]

Ok. Just off the top of my head. Without going into elements that don't need to be said on here

 

HMS Astute was already way out of date in many aspects way before it was finished. It will need another refit just to bring it up to around 2005/6 standards

 

Just one element. It fitted with a paper chart system.... They have been done away with ages ago. But because of the contract that was issued, it was not able to be changed during build

 

Some of it comma systems are way out of date... I could go on, but ŷou get my drift

 

Ah Astute, please tell me which current SSN's available in the world are better. The design of a nuclear submarine is recognised as one of if not the most complex engineering systems in the world. The design process requires that technology is de-risked before it can be included in the design, I would bet my shirt your examples were not mature enough when the design freeze decisions had to be taken hence designers include growth margin in all designs to allow for capability inserts/upgrades throughout the life of the system. Minor question TDD do you understand DLODS?