Lords reform to be abandoned - Are the Lib Dems...

[saintbletch]

...just the Tory party's b***h? Or do they some credibility left?

 

£10K tax threshold aside, they appear to have either backtracked on every stance they have taken and have either lost or capitulated in every major policy or principle they held dear.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19149212

 

I'm not looking to start a anti-Lib Dems political thread here.

 

I'm interested to know how people think they will fare in the next and subsequent elections. How do staunch Lib Dem supporters feel about the party?

[dune]

Hilarious. First they lose out with voting reform and now this.

[solentstars]

if i was clegg i would leave the coalition and take his party to the back benchs because the nutty right of the tory party are not honourable people who prefer ideology and want cameron to follow their agenda rather than appeal to the centre ground. it would be fun seeing the tory party struggle to get any business of government threw.

[Colinjb]

It's the nature of democracy.

 

The Lib Dems are a minority within the ruling coalition, they have influence but not much.

 

They havn't sold out they just can't do too much but it's surely better from their perspective to have some kind of sway rather then simply leave the Tories to run a minority government.

 

But of course, it's much more entertaining to say that they are a bunch of pussy sell out cowards, because that sells papers.

[Saintandy666]

Bye bye boundary reforms. The conservative hierarchy are not going to be happy. This could be terminal.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

It's the nature of democracy.

 

The Lib Dems are a minority within the ruling coalition, they have influence but not much.

 

They havn't sold out they just can't do too much but it's surely better from their perspective to have some kind of sway rather then simply leave the Tories to run a minority government.

 

But of course, it's much more entertaining to say that they are a bunch of pussy sell out cowards, because that sells papers.

 

They've completely sold out which is why they will get pummelled in the next general election. They face years in the political wilderness in exchange for Nick Glegg's moment in the sun.

[dune]

Bye bye boundary reforms. The conservative hierarchy are not going to be happy. This could be terminal.

 

David Cameron made sure all his ministers toed the line, if the slimey Liberals do the same it'll be fine nipper.

[Thedelldays]

They've completely sold out which is why they will get pummelled in the next general election. They face years in the political wilderness in exchange for Nick Glegg's moment in the sun.

you can't come 3rd....go into a coalition and get everything you want......

 

if this is a snapshot into the future (if) of some sort of representation....then, no thanks

[buctootim]

They've completely sold out which is why they will get pummelled in the next general election. They face years in the political wilderness in exchange for Nick Glegg's moment in the sun.

 

How have they 'sold out'? Too much tabloid reading methinks. They've compromised in order to exert a moderating effect on the Tories and to get through some important changes which wouldnt have been achieved if they werent in coalition but instead sat sniping comfortably from the sidelines.

[solentstars]

looks like a one term tory government because the nutty right wont honour thei agreement with the lib dems. i feel sorry for cameron trying to modernise his party and still having those silly buffoons in his party i bet he wishes they would p iss off and join ukip.

[Thedelldays]

How have they 'sold out'? Too much tabloid reading methinks. They've compromised in order to exert a moderating effect on the Tories and to get through some important changes which wouldnt have been achieved if they werent in coalition but instead sat sniping comfortably from the sidelines.

all COMPLETELY lost by our guardian reading friends

how do we know that they havent traded this for something else..?

[Saint_clark]

They've completely sold out which is why they will get pummelled in the next general election. They face years in the political wilderness in exchange for Nick Glegg's moment in the sun.

 

http://www.whatthehellhavethelibdemsdone.com/

 

I believe something like 75% of there election manifesto has actually come to fruition.

Edited 6 August, 2012 by Saint_clark

[dune]

looks like a one term tory government because the nutty right wont honour thei agreement with the lib dems. i feel sorry for cameron trying to modernise his party and still having those silly buffoons in his party i bet he wishes they would p iss off and join ukip.

 

UKIP = the real Tory Party. FACT

[solentstars]

How have they 'sold out'? Too much tabloid reading methinks. They've compromised in order to exert a moderating effect on the Tories and to get through some important changes which wouldnt have been achieved if they werent in coalition but instead sat sniping comfortably from the sidelines.

i agree the only people who hate the coalition our the tory or labour diehards who like little hitlers want to just their pure ideology. its amazing we still have not got a elected second chamber.

[solentstars]

UKIP = the real Tory Party. FACT

only in your dreams ,more like the enemy within.

[Thedelldays]

http://www.whatthehellhavethelibdemsdone.com/

 

I believe something like 75% of there election manifesto has actually come to fruition.

not bad for a traditionally small party and one that come 3rd.....

 

the minute they don't get someone that is fairly publicised, they lot go mental.....than say the tories want it all their way etc....

[Lord Duckhunter]

Some people need reminding that the Lib/Dems lost seats in the last election and are polling rock bottom at the moment. The proposed bill is also a dogs breakfast of a bill, that appears to be worked out on the back of a fag packet.

 

They have been found out. They fight Tory seats as a right leaning party and Labour ones leaning to the left. Had they been in coalition with Labour, the exact same politicans would be following completely different policies, they are unprincipled and only interested in power. I'm sure we'll see a 1970's type election return for them in 2 years time.

 

I did find the post "the nutty right of the tory party are not honourable people who prefer ideology and want cameron to follow their agenda rather than appeal to the centre ground." rather funny. The poster seems to say that abandoning your ideology and giving up your agenda, to appeal to the middle ground is somehow honourable. Whereas following your ideology, sticking by your pricicples and wanting the PM to follow you, is somehow dishonourable. I suppose in solentstars eyes, people like Tony Benn are not honourable but Tony Blair was? Personaly I would rather there were more MP's that stick to their agenda and try to get the PM to follow it, rather than the lemming like rush based on focus groups, we've had the past 20 years.

[solentstars]

Some people need reminding that the Lib/Dems lost seats in the last election and are polling rock bottom at the moment. The proposed bill is also a dogs breakfast of a bill, that appears to be worked out on the back of a fag packet.

 

They have been found out. They fight Tory seats as a right leaning party and Labour ones leaning to the left. Had they been in coalition with Labour, the exact same politicans would be following completely different policies, they are unprincipled and only interested in power. I'm sure we'll see a 1970's type election return for them in 2 years time.

 

I did find the post "the nutty right of the tory party are not honourable people who prefer ideology and want cameron to follow their agenda rather than appeal to the centre ground." rather funny. The poster seems to say that abandoning your ideology and giving up your agenda, to appeal to the middle ground is somehow honourable. Whereas following your ideology, sticking by your pricicples and wanting the PM to follow you, is somehow dishonourable. I suppose in solentstars eyes, people like Tony Benn are not honourable but Tony Blair was? Personaly I would rather there were more MP's that stick to their agenda and try to get the PM to follow it, rather than the lemming like rush based on focus groups, we've had the past 20 years.

I like the way you love sticking up for the nutty right and fundamlist type of politics

 

 

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk 2

[Lord Duckhunter]

I like the way you love sticking up for the nutty right and fundamlist type of politics

 

 

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk 2

 

I'm sticking up for MP's that stand by their principles and dont change them in a rush to the "centre ground", whether left or right.

 

Perhaps you could explain the "nutty right". Who are these charactors and what are some of their nutty right policies?

[EastleighSoulBoy]

It's the nature of democracy.

 

The Lib Dems are a minority within the ruling coalition, they have influence but not much.

 

They havn't sold out they just can't do too much but it's surely better from their perspective to have some kind of sway rather then simply leave the Tories to run a minority government.

 

But of course, it's much more entertaining to say that they are a bunch of pussy sell out cowards, because that sells papers.

 

While reflecting what a lot of people think. They have put me back on the track and I lean even more to the left now than I did previously. (Cue cat calls from the knuckle draggers , not you mate.)

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

How have they 'sold out'? Too much tabloid reading methinks. They've compromised in order to exert a moderating effect on the Tories and to get through some important changes which wouldnt have been achieved if they werent in coalition but instead sat sniping comfortably from the sidelines.

 

Well I was thinking about their amazing about face on tuition fees more than anything. This will stick in voters' minds far more prominently than Lords reform which most people think is very low on the priority list. For the record I don't read tabloids.

[Colinjb]

While reflecting what a lot of people think. They have put me back on the track and I lean even more to the left now than I did previously. (Cue cat calls from the knuckle draggers , not you mate.)

 

It's understandable. If faith in a middle ground has been compromised of course a retreat to something a little more to a safer extreme will follow.

 

The mention of Tony Benn earlier raised a thought. In terms of his politics I would never have agreed with him, but by christ you could respect him. In an interview with Benn on TalkSport not long ago he admitted that he fiercly opposed Thatcher but respected a worthy foe. There are no high profile politicians around today that are capable of raising that respect, they are all career power seekers rather then individuals of principle.

 

Our country is all the poorer for it.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

http://www.whatthehellhavethelibdemsdone.com/

 

I believe something like 75% of there election manifesto has actually come to fruition.

 

That's hardly objective is it?

[buctootim]

Well I was thinking about their amazing about face on tuition fees more than anything.

 

The LD MPs were given a free vote - and around half voted for and half voted against or abstained. I dont like the rise either - but against the backdrop of very high (probably too high) numbers going to University and a record budget deficit then something had to give. It would have been easy to take the cop out way forward of simply voting to spend more cash the country didnt have at that moment.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

The LD MPs were given a free vote - and around half voted for and half voted against or abstained. I dont like the rise either - but against the backdrop of very high (probably too high) numbers going to University and a record budget deficit then something had to give. It would have been easy to take the cop out way forward of simply voting to spend more cash the country didnt have at that moment.

 

Haha - you don't work for the LDs do you?

 

Given a free vote? Wow, wasn't it in the manifesto to eliminate tuition fees entirely? Seemed to be a big part of their campaign. Which way did Clegg and the top brass vote?

 

The talk about deficit cutting is total BS. As we've been told, students will repay over 20 odd years once they earn over a certain threshold and so the costs are still being met by the Government through BORROWING. How ironic is that! They'd have been much better off reducing the numbers attending higher education to a more manageable level e.g cutting funding for courses like Media Studies etc

[Colinjb]

They'd have been much better off reducing the numbers attending higher education to a more manageable level e.g cutting funding for courses like Media Studies etc

 

And threaten making a University degree an 'elitest' thing again? Universities have become far more then just a place for educations, they are employment centres, hubs of communities. Cutting places will simply create a worse situation then raising the tuition fees will.

 

Like many things left over from labour, they are establishments that help prop up the economy but do not directly add to it. They need to be maintained but equally need to be more self sustained.

[buctootim]

Haha - you don't work for the LDs do you?

 

Given a free vote? Wow, wasn't it in the manifesto to eliminate tuition fees entirely? Seemed to be a big part of their campaign. Which way did Clegg and the top brass vote?

 

 

 

You dont think a free vote has a place in a democracy?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11964669

Edited 6 August, 2012 by buctootim

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11964669

 

Thanks, more of a rhetorical question, I already knew that Clegg had no principles.

[moonraker]

http://www.whatthehellhavethelibdemsdone.com/

 

I believe something like 75% of there election manifesto has actually come to fruition.

 

Sadly no national media want to tell this story. The press barons are only interested in the Tories or Labour; misrepresenting the LD's is nothing new. It’s a shame so many voters are either too thick or to ideological to understand / acknowledge this. The one good thing will be that Cameron and his unpleasant self serving backbenchers are going to be a one term government.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

And threaten making a University degree an 'elitest' thing again?

 

Introducing fees has already led to a decline in numbers mainly from the state sector, plus the existing attendance is already overwhelmingly middle class.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Sadly no national media want to tell this story. The press barons are only interested in the Tories or Labour; misrepresenting the LD's is nothing new. It’s a shame so many voters are either too thick or to ideological to understand / acknowledge this. The one good thing will be that Cameron and his unpleasant self serving backbenchers are going to be a one term government.

 

So if you don't support the LDs you're either thick or ideological? And I thought the customer was always right......

[bridge too far]

......

 

They have been found out. They fight Tory seats as a right leaning party and Labour ones leaning to the left. Had they been in coalition with Labour, the exact same politicans would be following completely different policies, they are unprincipled and only interested in power. I'm sure we'll see a 1970's type election return for them in 2 years time.

 

.................

 

This, in a nutshell, is why I find the LibDems so distasteful. Perpetual fence-sitters IMO.

[Colinjb]

Introducing fees has already led to a decline in numbers mainly from the state sector, plus the existing attendance is already overwhelmingly middle class.

 

Which does fly in the face of a lot of the opposition to the fee rises.

 

Also the costs of repayment for a graduate on the new scheme will be better then that of those like me on the old. The monthly repayments will be capped at a figure lower then the amount I am currently paying and will not be asked for if earning below a certain amount.

 

If anything a University place will be more actively affordable then before.

 

But it's all swings and roundabouts. Nothing is free, and nor should it be.

[JPTCount]

first it was tuition fees...

 

and we can all fill our manifestos with standard stuff everyone is gonna do bit the vote winning policies are the ones that matter.

 

they got in on the student vote imo, anyone under 25 grew up with the legend of Maggie and lived through new labour, and now have been shafted by the lib dems.

 

they had a chance to dig thier heels in and create real change but opted for a deal with the devil.

[Saintandy666]

And it's been confirmed. Lib Dems will not vote through Tory boundary changes. That means Cameron will not win the next election.

 

On Clegg himself, I was lucky enough to be able to meet him recently and he actually a very nice and reasonable person. He gets a hard time from the Tory press for things largely beyond his control.

[Colinjb]

they had a chance to dig thier heels in and create real change but opted for a deal with the devil.

 

No point digging your heels in and losing all sway, when you can compromise and influence in other matters.

 

Some of Lib Dem policy has been put into place, isn't that better then nothing?

[moonraker]

So if you don't support the LDs you're either thick or ideological? And I thought the customer was always right......

 

Not at all, who one supports is a matter of free choice, however whenever the LD's part in the coalition is brought up on here the usual suspects just jump on the media bandwagon. They criticise the LD’s as though they are the government not the minority partner in a coalition, a coalition that despite our voting system is what we voted for, not as individuals but as a nation.

[JPTCount]

It's understandable. If faith in a middle ground has been compromised of course a retreat to something a little more to a safer extreme will follow.

 

The mention of Tony Benn earlier raised a thought. In terms of his politics I would never have agreed with him, but by christ you could respect him. In an interview with Benn on TalkSport not long ago he admitted that he fiercly opposed Thatcher but respected a worthy foe. There are no high profile politicians around today that are capable of raising that respect, they are all career power seekers rather then individuals of principle.

 

Our country is all the poorer for it.

 

there are individuals of principle there, it's just head office dont let them out thier constituency

[Colinjb]

Not at all, who one supports is a matter of free choice, however whenever the LD's part in the coalition is brought up on here the usual suspects just jump on the media bandwagon. They criticise the LD’s as though they are the government not the minority partner in a coalition, a coalition that despite our voting system is what we voted for, not as individuals but as a nation.

 

Quite. They are being demonsied by a media who are preying on the general public's lack of understanding of their own voting system.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Which does fly in the face of a lot of the opposition to the fee rises.

 

Also the costs of repayment for a graduate on the new scheme will be better then that of those like me on the old. The monthly repayments will be capped at a figure lower then the amount I am currently paying and will not be asked for if earning below a certain amount.

 

If anything a University place will be more actively affordable then before.

 

But it's all swings and roundabouts. Nothing is free, and nor should it be.

 

It doesn't fly in the face of the opposition to fee rises. The policy may be egalitarian but if isn't received in that way then it will still fail.

 

So £9k a year is better than £3k a year? OK.

[Colinjb]

It doesn't fly in the face of the opposition to fee rises. The policy may be egalitarian but if isn't received in that way then it will still fail.

 

So £9k a year is better than £3k a year? OK.

 

Is a cap 100 or so pounds going out a month better then 150+? (I do not remember the exact figures but that is how it's structured.)

 

That is what it means in reality.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Not at all, who one supports is a matter of free choice, however whenever the LD's part in the coalition is brought up on here the usual suspects just jump on the media bandwagon. They criticise the LD’s as though they are the government not the minority partner in a coalition, a coalition that despite our voting system is what we voted for, not as individuals but as a nation.

 

It should have been pretty obvious to them that: if you like the coalition vote Tory at the next election, if you don't like them don't vote Tory or Lib Dem.

[JPTCount]

No point digging your heels in and losing all sway, when you can compromise and influence in other matters.

 

Some of Lib Dem policy has been put into place, isn't that better then nothing?

 

he dug his heels in with brown

 

I personally felt it was opportunity for a major overhaul of government, not immediately, but three parties working together over a cpl of terms. instead we are back to square one of tit for tat arguing at pmqs, a stuck up speaker, rising debt, disenfranchised youth, fewer jobs and the rest. all that happened is the ppl who wear red ties sit on the right now, and blue n yellow on the left.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Is a cap 100 or so pounds going out a month better then 150+? (I do not remember the exact figures but that is how it's structured.)

 

 

Well more fool you. I'd rather pay £150 a month for 5 years than £100 a month for 22.5 years....

[Lord Duckhunter]

The Lib/Dems knew that it is impossible to send nearly 50% of students to uni and not raise fees. They did not for one minute believe that they would be in Government so signed these stupid pledges knowing that they could appear "principled" and gain lots of votes in the Uni towns and Cities.

 

They tried to play politics with a serious issue and ended up getting their fingers burnt.

[Colinjb]

Well more fool you. I'd rather pay £150 a month for 5 years than £100 a month for 22.5 years....

 

Oh, I agree that it is worse in the long term, but the trade off is that in the earlier part of life, when money needs to stretch further things will be easier.

 

There is no right answer here, there is a massive mess that needs to be cleared up but at least with this system there would a be a chance to maintain the existing infrastructure while also allowing greater flexibility and less immediate financial constraint to new graduates.

 

The error was made in my mind when the University system became a free for all rather then an outlet for genuine academic achievement. Anything that happens now is simply a sticky plaster over the wound.

[View From The Top]

The Lib/Dems knew that it is impossible to send nearly 50% of students to uni and not raise fees. They did not for one minute believe that they would be in Government so signed these stupid pledges knowing that they could appear "principled" and gain lots of votes in the Uni towns and Cities.

 

They tried to play politics with a serious issue and ended up getting their fingers burnt.

 

Yep, seems a fair summary to me.

[Lord Duckhunter]

 

 

 

The error was made in my mind when the University system became a free for all rather then an outlet for genuine academic achievement. Anything that happens now is simply a sticky plaster over the wound.

 

Spot on.

 

Our youngsters are being conned. They are leaving uni with huge debts and terrible job prospects. When I went to school only the very brightest went to uni, and therefore it was funded by and large by the tax payer. Now it is just a extension of school and kids that should be working are being brainwashed into going to uni. It maybe a good laugh and **** up, but it's a pretty expensive one.

[capitalsaint]

Well more fool you. I'd rather pay £150 a month for 5 years than £100 a month for 22.5 years....

 

And you'd probably also rather that a mechanic, who didn't go to University, funds your entire degree through his taxes too!!!!

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Oh, I agree that it is worse in the long term, but the trade off is that in the earlier part of life, when money needs to stretch further things will be easier.

 

There is no right answer here, there is a massive mess that needs to be cleared up but at least with this system there would a be a chance to maintain the existing infrastructure while also allowing greater flexibility and less immediate financial constraint to new graduates.

 

The error was made in my mind when the University system became a free for all rather then an outlet for genuine academic achievement. Anything that happens now is simply a sticky plaster over the wound.

 

Personally I was in favour of an increase in higher rate tax (and I say that as a higher rate tax payer). I would have respected Clegg a lot more if he'd have offered to repay the cost of his higher eduction.