Acadamy - Cat1 Status.

[up and away]

Nonetheless, its incredibly difficult / nigh on impossible to audit something that isn't already in place, whether planned or half built.

 

Facilities only being one of ten criteria (however its weighted) suggest we've done very well in the other categories, although our current facilities aren't exactly third world.

 

After speed reading the actual document, there is no actual requirement to own a lot of these facilities, but sufficient access to such facilities over the year. There appears no minimum number of players required for each level, just sufficient for a team, which can be as low as 4 for the youngest up to 7 for the eldest where overage is allowed, The only strict requirement is the level of staff required for nominal, increasing per player number. Financially its going to be more cost effective for groups of 20 and multiples thereof.

 

In effect the whole EPPP document is what you would expect laid out for pupils of any private school, but with the emphasis on football and governed by the EPL and OFSTED.

[The Kraken]

After speed reading the actual document, there is no actual requirement to own a lot of these facilities, but sufficient access to such facilities over the year. There appears no minimum number of players required for each level, just sufficient for a team, which can be as low as 4 for the youngest up to 7 for the eldest where overage is allowed, The only strict requirement is the level of staff required for nominal, increasing per player number. Financially its going to be more cost effective for groups of 20 and multiples thereof.

 

In effect the whole EPPP document is what you would expect laid out for pupils of any private school, but with the emphasis on football and governed by the EPL and OFSTED.

 

I would have liked for lower league clubs to have had much more of an opportunity to obtain Cat A status, without the requirement for a £2.5M annual budget. Its nonsense to suggest that all top players have come through from the top clubs, they haven't. All this new system does is ensure the top clubs can cherry pick youngsters on the cheap across the whole country with complete impunity.

 

Yeah, it favours us, but its still inherently wrong.

[Saint J 77]

I would have liked for lower league clubs to have had much more of an opportunity to obtain Cat A status, without the requirement for a £2.5M annual budget. Its nonsense to suggest that all top players have come through from the top clubs, they haven't. All this new system does is ensure the top clubs can cherry pick youngsters on the cheap across the whole country with complete impunity.

 

Yeah, it favours us, but its still inherently wrong.

 

I agree, plus if all the lower league clubs start to close their academies its not really going to help the English game develop players for the National team.

[Dig Dig]

I agree, plus if all the lower league clubs start to close their academies its not really going to help the English game develop players for the National team.

 

It will be about quality over quantity. Surely all of the clubs with category 1,2 and 3 facilities and set up's should be able to produce enough players for the national team.

[Verbal]

I would have liked for lower league clubs to have had much more of an opportunity to obtain Cat A status, without the requirement for a £2.5M annual budget. Its nonsense to suggest that all top players have come through from the top clubs, they haven't. All this new system does is ensure the top clubs can cherry pick youngsters on the cheap across the whole country with complete impunity.

 

Yeah, it favours us, but its still inherently wrong.

 

Is it still wrong if it produces better players? It beggars belief that we STILL can't develop players with the technique that seems second nature to other nationalities - so much so that watching England play is just plain embarrassing.

 

I don't know whether this new system will achieve that - but the old structure was a busted flush.

[Dig Dig]

Is it still wrong if it produces better players? It beggars belief that we STILL can't develop players with the technique that seems second nature to other nationalities - so much so that watching England play is just plain embarrassing.

 

I don't know whether this new system will achieve that - but the old structure was a busted flush.

 

Exactly. Accrington Stanley having an academy won't make a blind bit of difference to how the national team performs.

[The Kraken]

Is it still wrong if it produces better players? It beggars belief that we STILL can't develop players with the technique that seems second nature to other nationalities - so much so that watching England play is just plain embarrassing.

 

I don't know whether this new system will achieve that - but the old structure was a busted flush.

The thing that will bring through quality is a huge amount of qualified coaches. Which we don't have. Who are the best technical side in the world right now? Spain. Is it a coincidence that they have nearly ten times as many FIFA-qualified football coaches as we do? You choose if that's relevant or not.

 

This new direction will only regress us further in that respect, I fear. We have the most successful league in the world. Our second league, the Championship, is something like the 4th of 5th most attended league in the world. Why is it we are so backwards when it comes to having a coaching structure that does the same? 10% of the amount of qualified coaches that Spain have. Why?

 

This whole change to our coaching structure is a further step backwards IMO, as it removes any sort of ambition from lower clubs to actually contribute. The top clubs will do OK, the nation will suffer.

[Verbal]

The thing that will bring through quality is a huge amount of qualified coaches. Which we don't have. Who are the best technical side in the world right now? Spain. Is it a coincidence that they have nearly ten times as many FIFA-qualified football coaches as we do? You choose if that's relevant or not.

 

This new direction will only regress us further in that respect, I fear. We have the most successful league in the world. Our second league, the Championship, is something like the 4th of 5th most attended league in the world. Why is it we are so backwards when it comes to having a coaching structure that does the same? 10% of the amount of qualified coaches that Spain have. Why?

 

his whole change to our coaching structure is a further step backwards IMO, as it removes any sort of ambition from lower clubs to actually contribute. The top clubs will do OK, the nation will suffer.

 

As I understand it, one of the consequences of the new structure is greater investment in coaching.

[Turkish]

Is it still wrong if it produces better players? It beggars belief that we STILL can't develop players with the technique that seems second nature to other nationalities - so much so that watching England play is just plain embarrassing.

 

I don't know whether this new system will achieve that - but the old structure was a busted flush.

 

It's morally wrong because it only helps the big clubs and the ones that can afford Cat A status. We're lucky that we are in a position now to be a cat A. 3-7 years ago we'd have been screwed and Walcott, Chamberlain and Bale would have gone for a few hundred grand not the £30m they did.

 

Crewe for example have produced some great players for the size of their club and location. Theyve survived in no small part down to being able to sell the likes of Dean Ashton, Danny Murphy and Nick Powell for millions. Under the new system all of those will end up at Man U and so on for peanuts.

 

Will it produce better English players? Time will tell. But what it will definitely do is ensure the rich get richer and to hell with everyone else. I really think that in years to come the likes of Crewe and Wycombe will be accompanied in their leagues by reserve teams of the big boys, like they have in Spain at the moment.

[Verbal]

It's morally wrong because it only helps the big clubs and the ones that can afford Cat A status. We're lucky that we are in a position now to be a cat A. 3-7 years ago we'd have been screwed and Walcott, Chamberlain and Bale would have gone for a few hundred grand not the £30m they did.

 

Crewe for example have produced some great players for the size of their club and location. Theyve survived in no small part down to being able to sell the likes of Dean Ashton, Danny Murphy and Nick Powell for millions. Under the new system all of those will end up at Man U and so on for peanuts.

 

Will it produce better English players? Time will tell. But what it will definitely do is ensure the rich get richer and to hell with everyone else. I really think that in years to come the likes of Crewe and Wycombe will be accompanied in their leagues by reserve teams of the big boys, like they have in Spain at the moment.

 

And Spain is certainly no role model.

[Dig Dig]

It's morally wrong because it only helps the big clubs and the ones that can afford Cat A status. We're lucky that we are in a position now to be a cat A. 3-7 years ago we'd have been screwed and Walcott, Chamberlain and Bale would have gone for a few hundred grand not the £30m they did.

 

Crewe for example have produced some great players for the size of their club and location. Theyve survived in no small part down to being able to sell the likes of Dean Ashton, Danny Murphy and Nick Powell for millions. Under the new system all of those will end up at Man U and so on for peanuts.

 

Will it produce better English players? Time will tell. But what it will definitely do is ensure the rich get richer and to hell with everyone else. I really think that in years to come the likes of Crewe and Wycombe will be accompanied in their leagues by reserve teams of the big boys, like they have in Spain at the moment.

 

Is that type of sacrifice worth it if it produces better, more technical players at National level?

[Dark Munster]

A revolutionary coaching set up.

[Sour Mash]

Is that type of sacrifice worth it if it produces better, more technical players at National level?

No it's not worth it. We've produced plenty of brilliant players in this country anyway. No point destroying loads of smaller clubs on the off chance it might produce one or two more England wins each year.

[Verbal]

No it's not worth it. We've produced plenty of brilliant players in this country anyway. No point destroying loads of smaller clubs on the off chance it might produce one or two more England wins each year.

 

I think we're over sentimental about the large number of clubs we have in league football. But in any case, which of these small clubs' academies has produced an England international player in the last ten years of the quality able to compete with Spain?

[Sour Mash]

I think we're over sentimental about the large number of clubs we have in league football. But in any case, which of these small clubs' academies has produced an England international player in the last ten years of the quality able to compete with Spain?

Probably none and I couldn't care less.

[The Kraken]

I think we're over sentimental about the large number of clubs we have in league football. But in any case, which of these small clubs' academies has produced an England international player in the last ten years of the quality able to compete with Spain?

Are you joking? Or a bit thick? You cant even think of one?

[Doctoroncall]

The smaller clubs will have to adapt to survive which may mean no academy or scaled right backed. For the smaller clubs there will be a slow transition of philosophy in youth team recruitment which will see them picking up the youngsters that don't fulfil the promise at the PL and championship clubs who will be more demanding on results. The smaller clubs may well lose out on a fee but can get a young player with a decent coaching background for free and add some first team experience it could work out well. It's the loan system that may cause more concern if clubs can hoard young players to loan out for experience.

[Matthew Le God]

But in any case, which of these small clubs' academies has produced an England international player in the last ten years of the quality able to compete with Spain?

 

Joe Hart, Shrewsbury Town

[alpine_saint]

Stoke and Sunderland have both announced they have got it.

 

So actually, its all about having a red-and-white striped kit, rather than a decent Yoof programme.

 

Oh...

 

Anyhoo, hopefully it means we will get first bagsy on more of the nations promising young talent.

[Saint Fan CaM]

Whilst its good for Saints can't help but feel a lot of smaller clubs are going to be screwed by this. Players like Nick Powell will be poached younger and for much less than the £4m Man U payed for him. For a lot of these clubs this is what keeps them going.

 

I agree, although I'm not sure how or why these players would go for less - surely market forces would take over.

 

Actually, I'd go one further in a way. My feeling is it's far too easy for a player to leave his parent club that developed him and as such, the club owners will only benefit from the money. The paying supporters don't get to see their team benefit from the skill they have effectively paid to be developed. All players should be mandated to stay at their parent club until at least 21 years old IMHO.

[farawaysaint]

Joe Hart, Shrewsbury Town

 

Pompey oxlade chamberlain

[Verbal]

Are you joking? Or a bit thick? You cant even think of one?

 

Are you a schoolboy? If so, we on Saintsweb try and address each other with good manners. Had you not noticed?

 

I've also scoured your post for a list. It must be vast, given your hyperventilations. But I can't find it. So far we have a goalkeeper. Which doesn't quite help with the argument.

 

The broader point stands: the world game has moved on, and we're looking like cement-trapping dinosaurs. The new structure may not be the answer. But something's got to give...

[Saint Garrett]

I see WHU have been awarded it this morning.

[Turkish]

Are you a schoolboy? If so, we on Saintsweb try and address each other with good manners. Had you not noticed?

 

I've also scoured your post for a list. It must be vast, given your hyperventilations. But I can't find it. So far we have a goalkeeper. Which doesn't quite help with the argument.

 

The broader point stands: the world game has moved on, and we're looking like cement-trapping dinosaurs. The new structure may not be the answer. But something's got to give...

 

If we are talking clubs outside the premier league that won't be cat A then off the top of my head

 

Chris Smalling

Phil jones

Ashley Young

Stuart Downing

JAck Butland

Joleen Lescott

Gary Cahill

Scott Parker

Phil Jagielka

joe Hart

 

So quite a few internationals actually. Although if they can compete with Spain is another matter as has be proven over the last 3 tournaments there aren't many countries who can.

Edited 28 July, 2012 by Turkish

[Sour Mash]

Are you a schoolboy? If so, we on Saintsweb try and address each other with good manners. Had you not noticed?

 

I've also scoured your post for a list. It must be vast, given your hyperventilations. But I can't find it. So far we have a goalkeeper. Which doesn't quite help with the argument.

 

The broader point stands: the world game has moved on, and we're looking like cement-trapping dinosaurs. The new structure may not be the answer. But something's got to give...

No we're not. We're one of the top 10 footballing nations in the world.

[Verbal]

If we are talking clubs outside the premier league that won't be cat A then off the top of my head

 

Chris Smalling

Phil jones

Ashley Young

Stuart Downing

JAck Butland

Joleen Lescott

Gary Cahill

Scott Parker

Phil Jagielka

joe Hart

 

So quite a few internationals actually. Although if they can compete with Spain is another matter as has be proven over the last 3 tournaments there aren't many countries who can.

 

My point is contained in your last sentence. We should be producing world class players to compete with Spain, et al. How many in that list would qualify as truly world class?

[Saint Garrett]

England only probably have 2 world class players, Rooney and Ashley Cole. And Rooney rarely plays well for England.

[Turkish]

My point is contained in your last sentence. We should be producing world class players to compete with Spain, et al. How many in that list would qualify as truly world class?

 

Joe Hart. However, as I said, Spain are a class above anyone else and have been for 6 years, their team is arguably one of the best of all time so not many other countries are doing that either. We're still along way behind the best of the rest and yes Something has to change, of that there is no doubt, as usual thought the changes favour the big clubs and screw over everyone else. Its going to take make than a restructure of the academy system to change the mindset of most of this country that the best players are the fast, the strongest, the ones that work the hardest and thump their chest, scream and show that all important quality of passion, regardless of what they actually do with the ball.

[Turkish]

England only probably have 2 world class players, Rooney and Ashley Cole. And Rooney rarely plays well for England.

 

I guess it depends on your definition of what "world class" IMO Rooney falls just below that level.

[Saint Garrett]

I read something somewhere(cant remember where now) saying that in england youth we play on quite big pitches early, so basically the bigger kids who can kick the ball further and run quicker are the ones that get picked rather than the ones who have good technical ability. Would it be worth playing small sided games up until a later age rather than forcing 11 a side on a kid who is 12? I'm not very good at football, but when I was about 11/12 I used to play in defence for my village, for the soul reason that I could kick the ball quite a long way.

 

Im sure there are other ways to be brought up improving touch and ability, like playing small sided games, playing football with a tennis ball and other stuff like that. Good to see that we seem to be looking at the system and changing it, however I'm not convinced its going to work with this. Surely it will just end up with lots of players coming into the academies but then dropping out when they're not good enough. I guess the idea is to bring then better ones through, then cast off the ones who arent good enough and these are the ones who will go and play in the lower leagues.

[The Kraken]

I read something somewhere(cant remember where now) saying that in england youth we play on quite big pitches early, so basically the bigger kids who can kick the ball further and run quicker are the ones that get picked rather than the ones who have good technical ability. Would it be worth playing small sided games up until a later age rather than forcing 11 a side on a kid who is 12? I'm not very good at football, but when I was about 11/12 I used to play in defence for my village, for the soul reason that I could kick the ball quite a long way.

 

Im sure there are other ways to be brought up improving touch and ability, like playing small sided games, playing football with a tennis ball and other stuff like that. Good to see that we seem to be looking at the system and changing it, however I'm not convinced its going to work with this. Surely it will just end up with lots of players coming into the academies but then dropping out when they're not good enough. I guess the idea is to bring then better ones through, then cast off the ones who arent good enough and these are the ones who will go and play in the lower leagues.

We've had regulations for smaller sized pitches and smaller sized teams for younger players for years. And there has been a recent move to make sure kids don't play on full size pitches until they hit 13 or 14.

[Verbal]

Good to see that the Southampton connection works in getting Category 1 status for others. Huw Jennings' Fulham Academy have just announced they've won accreditation.

 

http://www.fulhamfc.com/Club/News/NewsArticles/2012/July/Category1Status.aspx

[Itchen_block4]

The bulk of the problem lies with the grassroots coaching far more so than the clubs. The clubs like ours that have money use it to be at the cutting edge because it's in their interest to be there.

[krissyboy31]

Good to see that the Southampton connection works in getting Category 1 status for others. Huw Jennings' Fulham Academy have just announced they've won accreditation.

 

http://www.fulhamfc.com/Club/News/NewsArticles/2012/July/Category1Status.aspx

We're not mentioned in the last paragraph re the U21 League.

[Matthew Le God]

We're not mentioned in the last paragraph re the U21 League.

 

There are going to be three leagues for clubs that applied for cat 1 clubs in 2012/13 (regardless of if they got cat 1 or not). We aren't in the same league as Fulham so aren't mentioned in that article. We are in one of the other two leagues of 8 clubs.

[The9]

Good to see that the Southampton connection works in getting Category 1 status for others. Huw Jennings' Fulham Academy have just announced they've won accreditation.

 

http://www.fulhamfc.com/Club/News/NewsArticles/2012/July/Category1Status.aspx

 

They also have Steve Wigley there, judging by his full Fulham training kit in Hedge End Sainsbury's yesterday. Amazing tan too.

[vince]

I read something somewhere(cant remember where now) saying that in england youth we play on quite big pitches early, so basically the bigger kids who can kick the ball further and run quicker are the ones that get picked rather than the ones who have good technical ability. Would it be worth playing small sided games up until a later age rather than forcing 11 a side on a kid who is 12? I'm not very good at football, but when I was about 11/12 I used to play in defence for my village, for the soul reason that I could kick the ball quite a long way.

 

Im sure there are other ways to be brought up improving touch and ability, like playing small sided games, playing football with a tennis ball and other stuff like that. Good to see that we seem to be looking at the system and changing it, however I'm not convinced its going to work with this. Surely it will just end up with lots of players coming into the academies but then dropping out when they're not good enough. I guess the idea is to bring then better ones through, then cast off the ones who arent good enough and these are the ones who will go and play in the lower leagues.

 

To be fair, I think the FA have realised we need to work on technique and small sided games. I did the level one coaching course in July (incidentally, the folder that comes with it has kids in Saints kit on the front and back covers) and the exercises in that are mainly in those areas. The coach that assessed us was a bloke who had worked with Arsenal for 10 years, and under Erikson with England, and was clearly passionate about bringing through better quality coaches at that level (all of us on the course coached kids). He said that at Arsenal, when they knew the FA were coming in to watch the training sessions, they were told to revert back to the "standard" FA coaching guides and basically hid their usual approach because of the fear of other clubs copying their techniques.

 

I started coaching my nippers U6 team last year, and if the quality of players is to improve, it's this age group where the grass roots coaching needs to improve, and where the kids need to be given confidence to play and make the mistakes without fear. I think the FA could make it a little easier for volunteers like myself through pricing - it's £150 to do the level one (fair enough,, most clubs will pay that), but £495 for the level 2. I saw an article on the BBC web site that had figures of something like 250K level 1 qualified coaches and about 28K level 2, so only around one in ten make that progression. It would be interesting to see what the Spanish coaching course fees are for similar levels.

 

I would say that coaching those kids has been one of the most rewarding things I've done and well worth doing if you have the chance. One of the lads already has exceptional ball control at 6, and while I appreciate the likelyhood of him being the next MLT is exceedingly small, who knows!?!