Matthew Le God Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 You needed to get 75% or more of the specification to get category 1. Any idea what % we got (or the others)? I don't know, I'll try and find out, but Les Reed seems to think we were top. People shouldn't look at all category one academies being equal in the same way that even though Ofsted might give two schools "outstanding", one of them achieved a higher mark. This will all aid Saints in recruitment of youngsters in the future, when they are competing to impress parents/kids.
Matthew Le God Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 What other clubs have been awarded Cat 1 then so far ? Stoke and Sunderland have both announced they have got it.
Monk Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 Great news! Now to get a job there in the next few years!
The Kraken Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 I don't know, I'll try and find out, but Les Reed seems to think we were top. People shouldn't look at all category one academies being equal in the same way that even though Ofsted might give two schools "outstanding", one of them achieved a higher mark. This will all aid Saints in recruitment of youngsters in the future, when they are competing to impress parents/kids. That being the case, will we get re-audited once our new buildings and everything are in place?
Tokyo-Saint Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 (edited) Stoke and Sunderland have both announced they have got it. http://www.nufcblog.org/2012/06/sunderland-and-middlesbrough-to-get-eppp-category-one-status-but-not-newcastle/#.UBKbrrSP-So And Middlesbrough but not Newcastle according to this article. Hopefully we are the top. Maybe they will need to introduce a category 1* just for us Edited 27 July, 2012 by Tokyo-Saint Sorry misread - said they will get it not have gotten it already.
Matthew Le God Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 That being the case, will we get re-audited once our new buildings and everything are in place? I believe they are re-audited every 2 to 3 years. I doubt Saints would have come out as 1st in England unless they were taking into account the facilities currently being built. In any case, in an interview a few months ago with Cortese he said that when they did a preliminary audit they were even impressed with the temporary buildings they had on site.
Saint Charlie Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 Wolves have got it. Reckon the only Prem teams that won't are probably Swansea, Wigan and QPR.
Saint Charlie Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 I believe they are re-audited every 2 to 3 years. I doubt Saints would have come out as 1st in England unless they were taking into account the facilities currently being built. In any case, in an interview a few months ago with Cortese he said that when they did a preliminary audit they were even impressed with the temporary buildings they had on site. You get a 3 year membership and then it is reviewed.
Dig Dig Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 Wolves have got it. Reckon the only Prem teams that won't are probably Swansea, Wigan and QPR. Tokyo-Saint mentions above that Newcastle might not have it.
Saint Fan CaM Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 Excellent news. Reading the OS article I would have thought that we scored highly in relation to the number of players that have gone through our Academy and are now playing in the Premiership, be that primarily with us or but also with other teams. Let's face it, given our past performance plus all the investment into Staplewood etc, it's really not surprising that we're seen as leaders in the field.
Saint Charlie Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 Tokyo-Saint mentions above that Newcastle might not have it. We can add them to the list. Either way, Prem clubs not in Cat 1 will be a minority.
Minty Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 Excellent news. Reading the OS article I would have thought that we scored highly in relation to the number of players that have gone through our Academy and are now playing in the Premiership, be that primarily with us or but also with other teams. Let's face it, given our past performance plus all the investment into Staplewood etc, it's really not surprising that we're seen as leaders in the field. At the risk of opening a can of worms, you could almost suggest that some credit is due to previous regimes for some of the work done previously to set us on our way to where we are now...? {ducks}
Tokyo-Saint Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 The independent auditors who carried out the inspections, “Foot Pass England” judged clubs on ten factors, these factors being: 1. Vision and strategy 2. Leadership and management 3. Coaching and developmemt programme 4. Education and welfare provision 5. Games programme 6. Athletic development programme 7. Player development programme 8. Talent indentification, recruitment and registration 9. Facilities 10. Corporate and financial stability,
Matthew Le God Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 We can add them to the list. Either way, Prem clubs not in Cat 1 will be a minority. True, but still good and impressive to be rated the best among the cat 1's and used as an example at St George's Park.
Saint Charlie Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 True, but still good and impressive to be rated the best among the cat 1's and used as an example at St George's Park. Of course. For the clubs like Newcastle what a disaster especially when Sunderland and Boro are in such close proximity.
Matthew Le God Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 At the risk of opening a can of worms, you could almost suggest that some credit is due to previous regimes for some of the work done previously to set us on our way to where we are now...? {ducks} I think that is fair to say. Rupert Lowe played significant role in setting us up on this path, Cortese/Liebherr have taken it to anther level though, right at the top of youth systems in this country.
Tokyo-Saint Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 When can we start poaching players? From now on, they will follow a very low standard scale which disadvantages lower ranking clubs, and gives an absolutely huge advantage to higher ranking ones under the new system. After all, this was a scheme devised by the Premier League, and his hence heavily biased towards giving the elite clubs a huge advantage. The scale will be as follows: For each year spent in an academy between the ages of 9 and 11 – £3,000 For each year spent in a Category 3 academy between the ages of 12 and 16 – £12,500 For each year spent in a Category 2 academy between the ages of 12 and 16: £25,000 For each year spent in a Category 1 academy between the ages of 12 and 16: £40,000 This means that clubs would only receive a maximum of £169,000 upfront for a young player, though there may be the potential for the selling club to receive up an extra £1.3 million, dependent on how many Premier League appearances the player makes up to a limit of 100. There will be a sell on fee of 20%, plus 5% for every future transfer. Good though this may sound, this will still be significantly lower than most clubs have received for nurturing top players of the future under the current tribunal system, with smaller clubs still struggling under the outgoing system of compensation.
Matthew Le God Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 Portsmouth applied for category 3. They haven't been audited yet, but I'm surprised they can justify the expense of running a category 3 academy when clubs like Wycombe and Hereford have packed in youth systems as they can't afford it. Saints are going to now find it even easier than they did before to "steal" the best youngsters from traditional Pompey areas. Not that they found it hard before!
The Kraken Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 The independent auditors who carried out the inspections, “Foot Pass England” judged clubs on ten factors, these factors being: 1. Vision and strategy 2. Leadership and management 3. Coaching and developmemt programme 4. Education and welfare provision 5. Games programme 6. Athletic development programme 7. Player development programme 8. Talent indentification, recruitment and registration 9. Facilities 10. Corporate and financial stability, Interesting that "facilities" is only one of ten factors they look at, which is good. It shows there's a much greater analysis of how clubs go about coaching/schooling rather than just who has got the most impressive training facilities (reinforced by us not having our extended facilities in place yet but still scoring so highly).
Saint Charlie Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 Portsmouth applied for category 3. They haven't been audited yet, but I'm surprised they can justify the expense of running a category 3 academy when clubs like Wycombe and Hereford have packed in youth systems as they can't afford it. Saints are going to now find it even easier than they did before to "steal" the best youngsters from traditional Pompey areas. Not that they found it hard before! Assume Brighton are Cat 2? Any idea on Reading?
Matthew Le God Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 Interesting that "facilities" is only one of ten factors they look at, which is good. It shows there's also a much greater analysis of how clubs go about coaching/schooling rather than just who has got the most impressive training facilities. True, but they aren't all given equal weighting.
The Kraken Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 True, but they aren't all given equal weighting. what weighting are they given?
up and away Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 Originally Posted by Matthew Le God I don't know, I'll try and find out, but Les Reed seems to think we were top. People shouldn't look at all category one academies being equal in the same way that even though Ofsted might give two schools "outstanding", one of them achieved a higher mark. This will all aid Saints in recruitment of youngsters in the future, when they are competing to impress parents/kids. That being the case, will we get re-audited once our new buildings and everything are in place? The new buildings may not come so heavily into the equation as most imagine. There has to be a base level of facilities but it's possible most clubs could have that anyway. One specific area is for allowing the younger academy players to have on site teaching such their travel time can then be incorporated into coaching and practice. This will be numbers related but I am not sure the audit deals with it in that manner (does there have to be a minimum number of students at a particular level?). They will require a staff / academy player ratio throughout all aspects, backed up by the qualifications of the staff. Most of this will be in the form of written, technical and evaluation procedures for the academy players that has a standard reference back to the FA.
Matthew Le God Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 (edited) Assume Brighton are Cat 2? Any idea on Reading? Yep, Brighton went for cat 2. But they are planning a major investment in training ground and facilities of their own and want cat 1 relatively soon. Reading went for cat 1. Pompey are going to be squeezed for youth player recruitment from the West, North and East by Saints, Reading and Brighton. They will have to recruit players from the sea in the South...! Edited 27 July, 2012 by Matthew Le God
Matthew Le God Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 (edited) what weighting are they given? I don't know. It may be in the document I have but not sure. Will have a quick look through it later but it has a lot of pages of waffle to sift through. Edited 27 July, 2012 by Matthew Le God
SuperMikey Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 Yep, Brighton went for cat 2. But they are planning a major investment in training ground and facilities of their own and want cat 1 relatively soon. Reading went for cat 1. Pompey are going to be squeezed for youth player recruitment from the West, North and East by Saints, Reading and Brighton. They will have to recruit players from the sea in the South...! They can get players from the channel islands - might not work out so bad for them. After all, remember the success we had with Jack Boyle?
Tokyo-Saint Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 Will have a quick look through it later but it has a lot of pages of waffle to sift through. That's what Lampitt said when the original document landed on his desk.
Minty Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 Pompey are going to be squeezed for youth player recruitment from the West, North and East by Saints, Reading and Brighton. They will have to recruit players from the sea in the South...! Same place most of their fans come from...
Turkish Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 I believe they are re-audited every 2 to 3 years. I doubt Saints would have come out as 1st in England unless they were taking into account the facilities currently being built. In any case, in an interview a few months ago with Cortese he said that when they did a preliminary audit they were even impressed with the temporary buildings they had on site. I remember Cortese saying that. I can only imagine it must be on what is already in place. Otherwise teams like QPR would have got it with their plans.
Matthew Le God Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 I remember Cortese saying that. I can only imagine it must be on what is already in place. Otherwise teams like QPR would have got it with their plans. Plans are all they are for QPR at the moment. Saints are further down the line and actually building it.
Turkish Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 Yep, Brighton went for cat 2. But they are planning a major investment in training ground and facilities of their own and want cat 1 relatively soon. Reading went for cat 1. Pompey are going to be squeezed for youth player recruitment from the West, North and East by Saints, Reading and Brighton. They will have to recruit players from the sea in the South...! Do you know if clubs can apply for cat 1 at any time or do they have to wait until the end of the 3 year reassessment period?
Matthew Le God Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 Do you know if clubs can apply for cat 1 at any time or do they have to wait until the end of the 3 year reassessment period? I'd guess they'd have to wait until the end to join the games program as it runs from under 8's to under 21's and is based on your category for those 3 years. If during those 3 years you waned to make the step up to cat 1 from cat 2 you could apply to have an audit.
The Kraken Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 Plans are all they are for QPR at the moment. Saints are further down the line and actually building it. Nonetheless, its incredibly difficult / nigh on impossible to audit something that isn't already in place, whether planned or half built. Facilities only being one of ten criteria (however its weighted) suggest we've done very well in the other categories, although our current facilities aren't exactly third world.
buctootim Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 That's what Lampitt said when the original document landed on his desk. and the tax demand
Matthew Le God Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 Facilities only being one of ten criteria (however its weighted) suggest we've done very well in the other categories, although our current facilities aren't exactly third world. Very true.
wireframebox Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 "Southampton, Wolverhampton Wanderers, Sunderland, Middlesbrough" ... to quote the bastion of free knowledge that is Wikipedia... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_Player_Performance_Plan
Turkish Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 Well it all seems very positive especially our role model status for Europe.
Thedelldays Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 Well it all seems very positive especially our role model status for Europe. just think how much better it would have been if we had more pitch advertisements in league 1..
The Kraken Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 A fixed tariff for transfers of players under 18 – The proposed tariff is: [TABLE=class: wikitable] [TR] [TD]Years spent at academy [/TD] [TD] Fixed fee per year [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]aged 9–11 [/TD] [TD] £3,000 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]aged 12–16 [/TD] [TD] £12,000 - £40,000 depending on academy category [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] This will replace the current system of an independent tribunal for compensation. I know that, as a Cat A club, we benefit from this. But however you dress it up, its a bloody disgrace really, and completely shafts the lower league clubs who can't afford the £2.5M annual operating budget. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few lower league academies fold in the next few years as it becomes increasingly easy for any Cat A club to come in and poach their best prospects for a relative pittance.
Dig Dig Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 I don't know. It may be in the document I have but not sure. Will have a quick look through it later but it has a lot of pages of waffle to sift through. That sounds like your perfect Friday night!
Matthew Le God Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 I wouldn't be surprised to see a few lower league academies fold in the next few years. Already happened, Wycombe and Yeovil (and some others) have given up in the younger age groups because of all of this. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18278621 http://www.thisissomerset.co.uk/Yeovil-Town-set-scrap-youth-teams/story-15989966-detail/story.html Category 4 teams aren't allowed age groups below under 18's.
The Kraken Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 Already happened, Wycombe and Yeovil (and some others) have given up in the younger age groups because of all of this. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18278621 http://www.thisissomerset.co.uk/Yeovil-Town-set-scrap-youth-teams/story-15989966-detail/story.html Category 4 teams aren't allowed age groups below under 18's. Yes, I've seen those. I think that'll be the tip of the iceberg, some clubs will think that they simply have to try having an academy but I can easily see two or three academy-player poaches down the line in the next year or two will ask serious questions of whether its actually worth their while. A shame really, it could easily have ticked all of the boxes by having a fair and equitable pricing system. Lower category clubs could have a superstar on the books and lose him for less than £100K. That doesn't sit well with me.
Tokyo-Saint Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 (edited) just think how much better it would have been if we had more pitch advertisements in league 1.. whoa - that means stop a horse in English. We had almost gotten to 3 pages without disagreeing on anything. You will now have at least 6 posts complaining. Turkish and I will evenually get accused of bullying, although no one will be able to give an example of when this happend. Edited 27 July, 2012 by Tokyo-Saint
Saint Jude Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 Evidently, yes. Three prem teams are excluded, but six Championship clubs are in. Does that mean 3 prem teams failed their audit... Or didn't't apply? ...and which ones?
Matthew Le God Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 Does that mean 3 prem teams failed their audit... Or didn't't apply? ...and which ones? QPR, Swansea and Wigan didn't apply for category one. Newcastle may have failed to get category one.
qwertySFC Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 I wonder who the other 2 clubs in Europe are? Think its Real Madrid and Portsmouth :;0
Turkish Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 Whilst its good for Saints can't help but feel a lot of smaller clubs are going to be screwed by this. Players like Nick Powell will be poached younger and for much less than the £4m Man U payed for him. For a lot of these clubs this is what keeps them going.
Griffo Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 I think this is absolutely disgraceful. Another step towards helping the big clubs and f*cking over smaller lower league clubs.
buctootim Posted 27 July, 2012 Posted 27 July, 2012 I think this is absolutely disgraceful. Another step towards helping the big clubs and f*cking over smaller lower league clubs. The rules are being written by the big clubs to favour the big clubs. Don't bodies like the FA or UEFA have any control over EPL anymore?
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