Lord Reforms

[Verbal]

True democracy is dead, in Europe. It has withered as a result of the declining standards of education your post demonstrates, that has led to a woefully uninformed electorate who think they are owed cheap credit, to buy sh !t they don't need, paid for by wages they don't earn. To top it all, they expect free healthcare, money when they are not working and a pension. No wonder China looks at the West and laughs.

 

Brilliant impression of Colonel Blimp as updated by a Daily Mail reader comment!

[alpine_saint]

PMQs is worth a watch this week.

 

Cameron proper losing it.

 

Any person in their right mind, from whatever shade of the political spectrum, can see that Cameron is just about the worst Prime Minister the UK has had in living memory, even beating Gordon Brown to the accolade. His Government has achieved absolutely nothing and has performed more u-turns than a middle-aged spinster taking her driving test for the 30th time.

 

Now, whether that is because he is the chinless wonder he appears, or because the Libdems have managed to neuter him like a flea-bitten alley cat with the coallition agreement, its difficult to say.

[solentstars]

True democracy is dead, in Europe. It has withered as a result of the declining standards of education your post demonstrates, that has led to a woefully uninformed electorate who think they are owed cheap credit, to buy sh !t they don't need, paid for by wages they don't earn. To top it all, they expect free healthcare, money when they are not working and a pension. No wonder China looks at the West and laughs.

so whats america excuse which has a far bigger deficit and two of the biggest spenders ever were ronald reagon and george bush and the country is run by big business corporations.

and china does not rely on financial services and crooked banks to fund the get rich culture like the uk of people who make nothing and gambol with other peoples money rather then investing in our industry's and small business and taking along term view.the reason we are in this mess we have bailed out the banks around the world and i also believe germany is sill a powerhouse because the still make cars ,tooling etc and great education system in place unlike our two tier system.

[solentstars]

Any person in their right mind, from whatever shade of the political spectrum, can see that Cameron is just about the worst Prime Minister the UK has had in living memory, even beating Gordon Brown to the accolade. His Government has achieved absolutely nothing and has performed more u-turns than a middle-aged spinster taking her driving test for the 30th time.

 

Now, whether that is because he is the chinless wonder he appears, or because the Libdems have managed to neuter him like a flea-bitten alley cat with the coallition agreement, its difficult to say.

cameron had to make the torys electable after the 80s nasty party and you can only do that from the centre and i believe he is a one nation tory of the old school .

[solentstars]

Brilliant impression of Colonel Blimp as updated by a Daily Mail reader comment!

i thought health care is what our soldiers after the war demanded and did not wish to return to the prewar years of working class people dieing young. i suppose if you have not been in that position you would not understand why.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

True democracy is dead, in Europe. It has withered as a result of the declining standards of education your post demonstrates, that has led to a woefully uninformed electorate who think they are owed cheap credit, to buy sh !t they don't need, paid for by wages they don't earn. To top it all, they expect free healthcare, money when they are not working and a pension. No wonder China looks at the West and laughs.

 

In fact democracy has facilitated Europe's downfall because to get elected you have to promise more than mob you are up against. To achieve that you have to borrow more and the spiral continues. How long do people really think that China is going to sit back and let their people slave away for next to nothing when the people they have effectively lent the money too are working a 37hr week, have six weeks holiday a year and are retiring at 60.

[dune]

In fact democracy has facilitated Europe's downfall because to get elected you have to promise more than mob you are up against. To achieve that you have to borrow more and the spiral continues. How long do people really think that China is going to sit back and let their people slave away for next to nothing when the people they have effectively lent the money too are working a 37hr week, have six weeks holiday a year and are retiring at 60.

 

I would like to see who actually owns UK Gilts by country. We don't publish this data, but they do in the US.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=major+holders+of+us+debt&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CFsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.treasury.gov%2Ftic%2Fmfh.txt&ei=wl7-T-3-Duea1AXhkYCLBw&usg=AFQjCNG_f5amxEY5zyU_VdN3XG6a5N_CcQ

 

And on the bright side this graph clearly shows how the US recovered after WW2. So despite all the the doom and gloom there is historical precedent for a strong recovery in our fortunes. We just need the Eurozone to collapse - a controlled demolition is what is required, but the idiots on the continent don't have the brains to do this and it'll all come down with a crash.

 

Edited 12 July, 2012 by dune

[alpine_saint]

Superb piece from Max Hastings:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2171682/Lords-reform-Nick-Cleggs-bluff-called-Its-time-David-Cameron-playpen.html

[buctootim]

Superb piece from Max Hastings

 

An oxymoron of rare quality.

[alpine_saint]

An oxymoron of rare quality.

 

Its an oxymoron in your opinion.

[solentstars]

An oxymoron of rare quality.

agree and its in the morons number 1 paper for nutjobs.max Hastings is just another knob mouthpeace from the Tory right.

[alpine_saint]

agree and its in the morons number 1 paper for nutjobs.max Hastings is just another knob mouthpeace from the Tory right.

 

Another tedious abusive venting of the spleen at the Daily Mail and its readers from the left (who are in this case lecturing about the democracy of Parliament - oh the irony).

 

I mean, we must be all stupid or w*nkers to believe something different from our intellectual and moral superiors on the left, musnt we ???

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

agree and its in the morons number 1 paper for nutjobs.max Hastings is just another knob mouthpeace from the Tory right.

 

You must be on a different intellectual level.

[Lord Duckhunter]

agree and its in the morons number 1 paper for nutjobs.max Hastings is just another knob mouthpeace from the Tory right.

 

If you are going to call people moron's I suggest you use correct English when doing so. Otherwise you'll just look like a knob "mouthpeace "(sic) from the illiterate left.

 

I dont normally pull people up over their English (as mine is poor) but someone calling others "morons" is fair game.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

agree and its in the morons number 1 paper for nutjobs.max Hastings is just another knob mouthpeace from the Tory right.

 

and the language of a bigot.

[solentstars]

Another tedious abusive venting of the spleen at the Daily Mail and its readers from the left (who are in this case lecturing about the democracy of Parliament - oh the irony).

 

I mean, we must be all stupid or w*nkers to believe something different from our intellectual and moral superiors on the left, musnt we ???

sorry to disapoint the nutty right but I belong to the centre ground and I dependant and voted for the Tories at the last election but I suppose your ilk think every ones a lefty if your moderate.good luck on reading the mail the paper which supported Hitler against our country in the past.

[solentstars]

and the language of a bigot.

I agree with you about max Hastings and his mail ilk

[dune]

If you are going to call people moron's I suggest you use correct English when doing so. Otherwise you'll just look like a knob "mouthpeace "(sic) from the illiterate left.

 

I dont normally pull people up over their English (as mine is poor) but someone calling others "morons" is fair game.

 

I'm not sure English is his native tongue so one should give him some leeway.

[alpine_saint]

sorry to disapoint the nutty right but I belong to the centre ground and I dependant and voted for the Tories at the last election but I suppose your ilk think every ones a lefty if your moderate.good luck on reading the mail the paper which supported Hitler against our country in the past.

 

Moderate and centre my arse; if you were you wouldnt so aggressively and abusively dismiss the opinion of others.

 

Any your comment about Hitler is utterly irrelevant, and quite frankly reveals just how bankrupt your position is.

[Thedelldays]

So, this reform won't make anything better but good for political point scoring

 

 

Brilliant

[Lord Duckhunter]

good luck on reading the mail the paper which supported Hitler against our country in the past.

 

I look forward to seeing your proof of the Mail's support of Hitler AGAINST our Country.

[buctootim]

I look forward to seeing your proof of the Mail's support of Hitler AGAINST our Country.

 

There is a good Guardian article about it here (no not an oxymoron).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2011/dec/06/dailymail-oswald-mosley.

 

My personal objection to the Mail is not the 1930s but the way they deliberately slant reporting of the 'news' to fit an agenda. They arent unique in that, all papers do it to a degree but imo the Mail is the worst.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

There is a good Guardian article about it here (no not an oxymoron).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2011/dec/06/dailymail-oswald-mosley.

 

My personal objection to the Mail is not the 1930s but the way they deliberately slant reporting of the 'news' to fit an agenda. They arent unique in that, all papers do it to a degree but imo the Mail is the worst.

 

I think as a nation we tend to forget how much support Moseley had particularly in the higher echelons of society.

[solentstars]

[h=2]1930s[/h] In the 1930s, the Daily Mail was politically sympathetic to fascism, and Lord Rothermere wrote articles praising the British Union of Fascists and their leader Oswald Mosley in particular for showing “sound, commonsense, Conservative doctrine”. One headline notoriously read "Hurrah for the Blackshirts". However, he toned down his support after the Fascist party was involved in street violence. The Mail’s political stance was also influenced by Rothermere’s personal friendship with both Benito Mussolini and Adolf Hitler and his Nazi Party – the only newspaper to support them both consistently. Rothermere sent Hitler a telegram of congratulations after Germany invaded the Sudetenland in 1938. The paper also published The Protocols of The Elders of Zion in serial form, and ran inflammatory articles about Jewish immigrants.^[4]

Neville Chamberlain’s appeasement policy was supported by the Daily Mail until after the Munich Agreement, but the newspaper changed its stance after the Nazi invasion of Poland in 1939. This change of attitude may have been influenced by Chamberlain’s threat to close them down.

[solentstars]

I think as a nation we tend to forget how much support Moseley had particularly in the higher echelons of society.

yes i think you were right about that

[Verbal]

What utterly baffles me - and perhaps one of the simpering Tories on here can explain it - is why the Tory 'rebels' are rebelling against something that was in their own manifesto just two years ago. "People have been shut out of Westminster politics for too long," it says, and therefore the Tories will "work to build a consensus for a mainly elected second chamber to replace the House of Lords."

 

Sounds like these 'rebels' have attained truly alpine heights of gormlessness.

[alpine_saint]

So, this reform won't make anything better but good for political point scoring

 

 

Brilliant

 

You got it.

 

Just look at where this thread has gone - casting aspersions about the political alignment of the paper in the UK, which is the main threat to left-wing bleeding-heart hegemony, from 60 or 70 years ago. If that isnt some sort of crude smear, I dont know what is.

[trousers]

What utterly baffles me - and perhaps one of the simpering Tories on here can explain it - is why the Tory 'rebels' are rebelling against something that was in their own manifesto just two years ago. "People have been shut out of Westminster politics for too long," it says, and therefore the Tories will "work to build a consensus for a mainly elected second chamber to replace the House of Lords."

 

Sounds like these 'rebels' have attained truly alpine heights of gormlessness.

 

Weren't they narked at how hastily the reforms have been cobbled together rather than being against reforms per se? By delaying the reforms they could be argued to be working towards the "consensus" outlined in the manifesto.

 

Just a hunch as I haven't followed this one very closely.

[alpine_saint]

What utterly baffles me - and perhaps one of the simpering Tories on here can explain it - is why the Tory 'rebels' are rebelling against something that was in their own manifesto just two years ago. "People have been shut out of Westminster politics for too long," it says, and therefore the Tories will "work to build a consensus for a mainly elected second chamber to replace the House of Lords."

 

Sounds like these 'rebels' have attained truly alpine heights of gormlessness.

 

And you call me gormless. Like anyone with a brain cell believes manifestos nowadays. Your credibility plummets further...

 

We were supposed to have a "cast-iron guarantee" of an EU referendum according to the Tory manifesto.

 

I notice you have completely lost the ability to discuss this in a civil manner; every one of your posts is filled with insulting adjectives for those who disagree with you.

 

Hows about you pick your toys up from the floor where they landed when you chucked them from your pram, and accept the Lords AND THE MONARCHY are here to stay...

 

[Verbal]

And you call me gormless. Like anyone with a brain cell believes manifestos nowadays. Your credibility plummets further...

 

We were supposed to have a "cast-iron guarantee" of an EU referendum according to the Tory manifesto.

 

I notice you have completely lost the ability to discuss this in a civil manner; every one of your posts is filled with insulting adjectives for those who disagree with you.

 

Hows about you pick your toys up from the floor where they landed when you chucked them from your pram, and accept the Lords AND THE MONARCHY are here to stay...

 

 

I didn't call you gormless. I was using a metaphor about the mountain range. You may now hang your head in shame.

[alpine_saint]

I didn't call you gormless. I was using a metaphor about the mountain range. You may now hang your head in shame.

 

Yes, very good attempt to dodge what you wrote. You are clearly one of those people who is never wrong about anything at all.

[Lord Duckhunter]

[h=2]1930s[/h] In the 1930s, the Daily Mail was politically sympathetic to fascism, and Lord Rothermere wrote articles praising the British Union of Fascists and their leader Oswald Mosley in particular for showing “sound, commonsense, Conservative doctrine”. One headline notoriously read "Hurrah for the Blackshirts". However, he toned down his support after the Fascist party was involved in street violence. The Mail’s political stance was also influenced by Rothermere’s personal friendship with both Benito Mussolini and Adolf Hitler and his Nazi Party – the only newspaper to support them both consistently. Rothermere sent Hitler a telegram of congratulations after Germany invaded the Sudetenland in 1938. The paper also published The Protocols of The Elders of Zion in serial form, and ran inflammatory articles about Jewish immigrants.^[4]

Neville Chamberlain’s appeasement policy was supported by the Daily Mail until after the Munich Agreement, but the newspaper changed its stance after the Nazi invasion of Poland in 1939. This change of attitude may have been influenced by Chamberlain’s threat to close them down.

 

You posted that the Mail was for Hitler AGAINST our country, where is your proof of that, because the above isn't it.

[Clapham Saint]

Democracy doesn't work any more and the sooner people start realising this, the better. The reason it doesn't work is that too many voters failed to inform themselves about the issues that may lead them to vote in an educated manner, beyond the front page of the Sun. They are at the mercy of professional politicians who are better at pandering to the masses and employing public sector workers who will support their socialist dreams. Anyone with a brain cell can see that the burden these state workers, a result of a socialist democracy, have caused, is the breakdown of the economies of countries like Italy, Spain, Greece and Portugal. Their policies are now dictated by the unelected leaders in the EU, who have even, as is the case in Italy, replaced the whole government with unelected officials.

 

What we need is representatives that are selected on the basis of their achievements in fields other than taking a political degree at Oxbridge or being a shop steward for Unite. We need successful businessmen, academics, sportsmen, doctors, etc. who have been recognised for their achievements, to represent us, in addition to the elected rabble who have f*** ed this country up since WWII.

 

What we need is the House of Lords, just as it is now.

 

Nail. Head.

 

In times gone by many MPs went into politics in order to "give something back" to society after acehiving sucess in their primary field. Now they enter parlament with no experience at all of the country which they then lead.

[View From The Top]

Weren't they narked at how hastily the reforms have been cobbled together rather than being against reforms per se? By delaying the reforms they could be argued to be working towards the "consensus" outlined in the manifesto.

 

Just a hunch as I haven't followed this one very closely.

 

That's how I understand it.

 

None, bar Clegg & his cronies, wanted it railroaded.

 

It wasn't reform, but the timescale and method that rankled.