Higg's Boson Discovered

[Verbal]

Welcome to the world of science funding.....

 

How co-incidental is it that the Tevatron in the US suddenly started finding hints of the Higgs boson just as it was shutting down ???

 

I dont believe any of them or their data. I made the same point on the global warming thread.

 

You really are an LHC-sized nitwit. This will in all likelihood turn out to be one of the great days in modern science, and you're spending it wedged into your chair typing it's all a conspiracy?

[alpine_saint]

You really are an LHC-sized nitwit. This will in all likelihood turn out to be one of the great days in modern science, and you're spending it wedged into your chair typing it's all a conspiracy?

 

You want some strawberry sauce over your vanilla Higgs ???

[Verbal]

You want some strawberry sauce over your vanilla Higgs ???

 

Do some reading Dimbulb. Be just a tiny bit curious. Don't accept the pathetic limitations of your own knowledge as the edge of the world.

[alpine_saint]

Do some reading Dimbulb. Be just a tiny bit curious. Don't accept the pathetic limitations of your own knowledge as the edge of the world.

 

I take it thats a no and you are a fan of plain vanilla.

[benjii]

Alpine, you do come across as a right tool.

[alpine_saint]

Alpine, you do come across as a right tool.

 

I simply distrust, even dislike, experimental/research scientists. Nothing against theoretical physicists such as Dr. Higgs himself.

 

If that makes me a tool in your eyes, I'll live with it..........

[pedg]

Scientist are such pretentious w*nkers.

 

Did not have you down a scientist Alpine.

[Verbal]

I simply distrust, even dislike, experimental/research scientists.

 

You have a personal animosity towards all experimental scientists? Based on what exactly? This really is breathtaking stupidity.

 

Honestly, you meet some odd people here and there, but if you're like this in person, I feel genuinely sorry for you.

[saintbletch]

I simply distrust, even dislike, experimental/research scientists. Nothing against theoretical physicists such as Dr. Higgs himself.

 

If that makes me a tool in your eyes, I'll live with it..........

 

I was going to try to correct you, but if you've truly met them all then that is impressive.

 

I had the great pleasure of visiting CERN a number of years ago and it is also very impressive.

 

I met a number of the research scientists and they all seemed unbelievably passionate and ridiculously dedicated - to my mind worthy of my trust and indeed my friendship.

 

Whilst it might sound like a build up to a joke, I had dinner with a French, German and Finnish physicists while I was there. It was one of the most amazing and humbling evenings I've spent in my time on this planet.

 

I walked round CERN whilst the current LHC was being constructed. Everything there is on a huge scale. A monumentally huge scale. And because of this step-change in scale, every supporting technology and process pretty much has to be invented from scratch. This is expensive but also means that new ways to do things are being invented all the time. This in turn creates spin-off jobs and industries and pushes us forward as a race. This, to my mind is a good thing.

 

I love knowledge, and I love learning. I love the process of realising that there are things that I don't know that I'd really like to know, and I enjoy setting about changing that.

 

I love the realisation that there are things that my tiny mind may never be able to grasp, and I love trying to get my tiny mind to bend to accommodate models that have no reference for me in the here and now.

 

So for me, If the governments of the world can write blank cheques to the bankers and armed forces to shore up balance sheets and wage politician's wars, then I'd vote that we write CERN a blank cheque and give them no further instruction other than to "stay curious".

[pap]

I simply distrust, even dislike, experimental/research scientists. Nothing against theoretical physicists such as Dr. Higgs himself.

 

So scientists are alright, as long as they don't do any experiments or research?

[Verbal]

I was going to try to correct you, but if you've truly met them all then that is impressive.

 

I had the great pleasure of visiting CERN a number of years ago and it is also very impressive.

 

I met a number of the research scientists and they all seemed unbelievably passionate and ridiculously dedicated - to my mind worthy of my trust and indeed my friendship.

 

Whilst it might sound like a build up to a joke, I had dinner with a French, German and Finnish physicists while I was there. It was one of the most amazing and humbling evenings I've spent in my time on this planet.

 

I walked round CERN whilst the current LHC was being constructed. Everything there is on a huge scale. A monumentally huge scale. And because of this step-change in scale, every supporting technology and process pretty much has to be invented from scratch. This is expensive but also means that new ways to do things are being invented all the time. This in turn creates spin-off jobs and industries and pushes us forward as a race. This, to my mind is a good thing.

 

I love knowledge, and I love learning. I love the process of realising that there are things that I don't know that I'd really like to know, and I enjoy setting about changing that.

 

I love the realisation that there are things that my tiny mind may never be able to grasp, and I love trying to get my tiny mind to bend to accommodate models that have no reference for me in the here and now.

 

So for me, If the governments of the world can write blank cheques to the bankers and armed forces to shore up balance sheets and wage politician's wars, then I'd vote that we write CERN a blank cheque and give them no further instruction other than to "stay curious".

 

Good story. I was at CERN while the LHC was under construction. The experimental scientists I met there were all as you describe. Their single-minded determination to be as cautious and precise as possible with their experiments, never overstating a result or over-simplifying an explanation, made them almost impossible to understand at times. But this was truly a scientific community working with common purpose and at the very edge of our scientific knowledge.

 

Aside from this, it's a great day for woefully underfunded British science, and for Peter Higgs in particular. We spend 0.55 of GDP on scientific research - less than any country in the G8. Yet Britain is the most scientifically productive country in the world. (The Cavendish Lab in Cambridge alone has 29 Nobel prizes - more than entire countries like China or Russia.) Knighthoods won't mean a damn if Higgs isn't awarded one.

[trousers]

So scientists are alright, as long as they don't do any experiments or research?

 

God loves all scientists

[pedg]

God loves all scientists

 

Is that the standard model god or the extended supersymmetry model god.

[dune]

You have a personal animosity towards all experimental scientists? Based on what exactly? This really is breathtaking stupidity.

 

Honestly, you meet some odd people here and there, but if you're like this in person, I feel genuinely sorry for you.

 

Are you Stephen Hawking by any chance?

[View From The Top]

Is that the standard model god or the extended supersymmetry model god.

 

Like.

[View From The Top]

I was going to try to correct you, but if you've truly met them all then that is impressive.

 

I had the great pleasure of visiting CERN a number of years ago and it is also very impressive.

 

I met a number of the research scientists and they all seemed unbelievably passionate and ridiculously dedicated - to my mind worthy of my trust and indeed my friendship.

 

Whilst it might sound like a build up to a joke, I had dinner with a French, German and Finnish physicists while I was there. It was one of the most amazing and humbling evenings I've spent in my time on this planet.

 

I walked round CERN whilst the current LHC was being constructed. Everything there is on a huge scale. A monumentally huge scale. And because of this step-change in scale, every supporting technology and process pretty much has to be invented from scratch. This is expensive but also means that new ways to do things are being invented all the time. This in turn creates spin-off jobs and industries and pushes us forward as a race. This, to my mind is a good thing.

 

I love knowledge, and I love learning. I love the process of realising that there are things that I don't know that I'd really like to know, and I enjoy setting about changing that.

 

I love the realisation that there are things that my tiny mind may never be able to grasp, and I love trying to get my tiny mind to bend to accommodate models that have no reference for me in the here and now.

 

So for me, If the governments of the world can write blank cheques to the bankers and armed forces to shore up balance sheets and wage politician's wars, then I'd vote that we write CERN a blank cheque and give them no further instruction other than to "stay curious".

 

I envy you. That must have been a wonderful experience.

[trousers]

Is that the standard model god or the extended supersymmetry model god.

 

There's only one God ya daft nincompoop!

[pedg]

There's only one God ya daft nincompoop!

 

 

Sorry, which of the many gods is the one god? Is it the one to do with sticking drawers?

[trousers]

Sorry, which of the many gods is the one god? Is it the one to do with sticking drawers?

 

Sticking drawers? You remind me of Lady Trousers. She has the very same issue.

[Saintandy666]

The term 'God Particle' is pretty misleading. My physics studying friends become annoyed by it because it sends out the wrong idea about what it is.

 

All the higgs boson is is the last jigsaw piece in the standard model. There's a huge amount of work and equations put into the standard model and it only makes sense(gives the right answer if you like) if something which does the work of the higgs boson or indeed the higgs boson itself exists. What they have announced they have discovered today is just something at the same measurements as was predicted. One massive step forward. - I think!

[saintbletch]

Good story. I was at CERN while the LHC was under construction. The experimental scientists I met there were all as you describe. Their single-minded determination to be as cautious and precise as possible with their experiments, never overstating a result or over-simplifying an explanation, made them almost impossible to understand at times. But this was truly a scientific community working with common purpose and at the very edge of our scientific knowledge.

 

Aside from this, it's a great day for woefully underfunded British science, and for Peter Higgs in particular. We spend 0.55 of GDP on scientific research - less than any country in the G8. Yet Britain is the most scientifically productive country in the world. (The Cavendish Lab in Cambridge alone has 29 Nobel prizes - more than entire countries like China or Russia.) Knighthoods won't mean a damn if Higgs isn't awarded one.

 

Agreed Verbal.

 

The people I met were very conscious of the inter-governmental funding of the place and as a result were very keen to show where the tax money goes. My company supplied some technology that ensured that the magnets in the ring kept the electrons turning left (or right - can't remember) instead of making a break for freedom and punching a hole in the tubing at ~99.9% of the speed of light. We supplied it free of charge, as do many companies, in order to take advantage of the publicity we could garner by using CERN's name. The CERN purchasing people do not want to pay for anything and far from living in cushy luxury, they count every penny/rappen/centime/whatever.

 

A quick look a Wikipedia tells me that the UK's contribution to CERN's funding in 2009 was €106.5M - now about £88M - or roughly one Christiano Ronaldo, half Balotelli's worth (according to his agent), 3-4 times Bob Diamond's likely severance package or 3 times the Queen's annual expenditure.

 

Bargain.

[pedg]

The term 'God Particle' is pretty misleading. My physics studying friends become annoyed by it because it sends out the wrong idea about what it is.

 

Apparently down to the publishers of a popular book who did not want it called the "goddamn particle".

Edited 4 July, 2012 by pedg

[trousers]

The term 'God Particle' is pretty misleading. My physics studying friends become annoyed by it because it sends out the wrong idea about what it is.

 

All the higgs boson is is the last jigsaw piece in the standard model. There's a huge amount of work and equations put into the standard model and it only makes sense(gives the right answer if you like) if something which does the work of the higgs boson or indeed the higgs boson itself exists. What they have announced they have discovered today is just something at the same measurements as was predicted. One massive step forward. - I think!

 

But what is it?

[pedg]

Sticking drawers? You remind me of Lady Trousers. She has the very same issue.

 

Obviously not a reader of Terry Pratchett.

[pedg]

But what is it?

 

i refer the gentleman to the previous video

which is actually very good.

[trousers]

Obviously not a reader of Terry Pratchett.

 

Who?

[Saintandy666]

But what is it?

 

It's hard to explain. Like a lot of stuff at this level, and a lot of particle physics it's extremely hard to understand how it works to detail. Just like I wouldn't be able to properly explain how gravity works, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, because I a non-physicist doesn't understand it.

 

From what I understand, it's effectively a particle that interacts with all other particles, surrounding and 'grabbing' at them if you like as other particles move through the field it creates. So mass is created becuase the particles have move through this field.

 

I'm probably horrendously wrong in areas, but I gave it my best go. Is there anyone here who actually does physics?

[pedg]

Who?

 

Sir Terry Pratchett, OBE, the second most-read writer in the UK

[sussexsaint]

Obviously not a reader of Terry Pratchett.

 

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

[Guided Missile]

I simply distrust, even dislike, experimental/research scientists. Nothing against theoretical physicists such as Dr. Higgs himself.

 

If that makes me a tool in your eyes, I'll live with it..........

I know what you mean. That Alexander Fleming....what a tool and don't get me started on f***ing Charles Darwin...

[Saintandy666]

I simply distrust, even dislike, experimental/research scientists. Nothing against theoretical physicists such as Dr. Higgs himself.

 

If that makes me a tool in your eyes, I'll live with it..........

 

But why?! How can we ever advance without experimenting?! Science is impossible without experiments and research.

[pedg]

I know what you mean. That Alexander Fleming....what a tool and don't get me started on f***ing Charles Darwin...

 

Not to mention that stuck up wassock J.J.Thompson. Discovered the electron, what use is that eh!

[Guided Missile]

Not to mention that stuck up wassock J.J.Thompson. Discovered the electron, what use is that eh!

Leave it out. It's not like the c*** invented it...

[pedg]

Leave it out. It's not like the c*** invented it...

 

At least that ****pot Faraday invented the electric motor, not that that lead to anything of f'in note.

[pedg]

But why?! How can we ever advance without experimenting?! Science is impossible without experiments and research.

 

Possibly because scientific evidence from experimental/research scientists disagree's with what he believes where as he is happy discounting the deductions of the effect of man on the planet from theoretical scientists as he can say "its only a theory".

[Saintandy666]

Possibly because scientific evidence from experimental/research scientists disagree's with what he believes where as he is happy discounting the effects of man on the earth from theoretical scientists as he can say "its only a theory".

 

Gravity is only a theory.

[trousers]

But why?! How can we ever advance without experimenting?! Science is impossible without experiments and research.

 

Cats and dogs don't have scientists and they always seem quite happy. Why did God make humans so damn inquisitive?

[pedg]

Gravity is only a theory.

 

Which just goes to highlight the difference between scientists and the layman. When scientists say something is a theory they mean 'this is what all the evidence so far points towards and the theory will change is evidence is found that does not agree with it' where as the layman thinks a theory just means 'something someone has thought up as an idea'

[trousers]

At least that ****pot Faraday invented the electric motor, not that that lead to anything of f'in note.

 

A semi-serious question from me...

 

What useful inventions do you see evolving out of today's Higgs bosun revelation?

 

I sort of get how the blokes who discovered electricity and stuff like that have helped mankind maintain the illusion that humans are a superior species but how does knowing why a boiled egg has mass (no sh*t Sherlock) help enrich our lives?

 

I did say semi-serious.... ;-)

[Guided Missile]

Why did God make humans so damn inquisitive?

You obviously spent too much time reading the "Bible" and not enough reading "Origin of the Species". On second thoughts, don't bother. Alpine hasn't and his life is testament to the benefits of ignorance....

[pedg]

A semi-serious question from me...

 

What useful inventions do you see evolving out of today's Higgs bosun revelation?

 

I sort of get how the blokes who discovered electricity and stuff like that have helped mankind maintain the illusion that humans are a superior species but how does knowing why a boiled egg has mass (no sh*t Sherlock) help enrich our lives?

 

I did say semi-serious.... ;-)

 

At the time of Faraday electricity was considered an interesting phenomena but of no practical use. I personally suspect that no inventions will be directly linked to the discovery of the higgs boson but what it does do is confirm the standard model such that people have more confidence in it and that may lead to further, more useful, discoveries.

[Guided Missile]

A semi-serious question from me...

 

What useful inventions do you see evolving out of today's Higgs bosun revelation?

The Higg's boson explains why Alpine has such a large mass. I don't know about the Higg's bosun. He's probably a Pompey fan, anyway...

[dubai_phil]

Cats and dogs don't have scientists and they always seem quite happy. Why did God make humans so damn inquisitive?

 

So you could spend your daily commutes asking stupid questions on the PTS thread

[dubai_phil]

A semi-serious question from me...

 

What useful inventions do you see evolving out of today's Higgs bosun revelation?

 

 

 

I did say semi-serious.... ;-)

 

Dilithium Crystals

[pedg]

Cats and dogs don't have scientists and they always seem quite happy. Why did God make humans so damn inquisitive?

 

False premise that God created human's, no empirical evidence to back that up sorry.

 

Actually its an interesting practical joke of sort of evolution that someone has proposed that a belief in religion was in the past a positive evolutionary trait. The theory being, I believe, that by believing in a god and leaving things like will the sun rise, will we find animals to hunt, will the harvest be good, etc, to the gods was less stressful than trying to figure these things out without the construct of a god.

Edited 4 July, 2012 by pedg

[Saintandy666]

False premise that God created human's, no empirical evidence to back that up sorry.

 

Actually its an interesting practical joke of sort of evolution that someone has proposed that a belief in religion was in the past a positive evolutionary trait. The theory being, I believe, that by believing in a god and leaving things like will the sun rise, will we find animals to hunt, will the harvest be good, etc, to the gods was less stressful than trying to figure these things out without the construct of a god.

 

And of course if you declared you didn't believe in God in the old days, you'd be quickly dealt with! Very interesting chapter on just this kind of thing in the Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins. Memetic evolution!

[saintbletch]

I envy you. That must have been a wonderful experience.

 

It truly was View From The Top.

 

I must have been a pretty poor dinner companion because I just kept asking stupid question after stupid question and you soon realise that there is such a gulf in knowledge between the layman and these guys that finding some form of common ground upon which they can start to build my knowledge took forever.

 

One of them urged me to read Richard Feynman's : QED The Strange Theory of Light and Matter. In the grand scheme of things it's not very advanced at all (I suspect that is why he recommended it) but is well written and it set me on a journey of discovery ever since. Anyone who has seen the double-slit photon experiment and doesn't spend some part of the rest of their days wanting to know "why?" is a better, or perhaps lesser man than me.

 

I can't do the scale of CERN justice - I don't have the words or the time but the LHC ring itself is 17 miles long and crosses between France and Switzerland a number of times. It's all deep underground so that interference is minimised and the detector I saw being built (can't remember which one it was) is about the size of a small block of flats in a hollowed out chamber underground. Each collision they engineer generates terabytes of data that has to be stored and archived and dispatched around the computers of the world for simultaneous processing.

 

But to me the most impressive thing about their discoveries is not that they understand some really hairy-arsed maths and physics, but that they create engineering solutions to what appear like impossible challenges.

 

So how do you go about building a machine that can detect the neutrino - a particle that famously interacts so weakly with everything that it passes straight through matter without even wiping its little neutrino feet?

 

And when these particles collide travelling at near to the speed of light, how can you capture the impact and resulting carnage such that a human can 'see' the results? You can't use a camera with 1600 ASA film and you can't just put a microscope at the heart of the collision and watch. These things are small and fast. Very small and very fast. They simply are not visible in the conventional sense.

 

Instead you have to build experiments and equipment that looks for what isn't there, and you have to imply by tiny changes in magnetic fields that something has or hasn't passed through. And you have to do all this with such precision that you can be sure that the blip on the chart is a Higgs Boson and not just a train on the Geneva underground system - seriously the detectors are that powerful that changes in electrical current miles away have to be accounted for.

 

Mind-blowing.

[Jonnyboy]

Alpine has been done a treat in the 2nd half

 

Alpine Alpine, give us a wave!

 

(no more internet for him, scientists invented it through research and experiments)

[dubai_phil]

It truly was View From The Top.

 

I must have been a pretty poor dinner companion because I just kept asking stupid question after stupid question and you soon realise that there is such a gulf in knowledge between the layman and these guys that finding some form of common ground upon which they can start to build my knowledge took forever.

 

One of them urged me to read Richard Feynman's : QED The Strange Theory of Light and Matter. In the grand scheme of things it's not very advanced at all (I suspect that is why he recommended it) but is well written and it set me on a journey of discovery ever since. Anyone who has seen the double-slit photon experiment and doesn't spend some part of the rest of their days wanting to know "why?" is a better, or perhaps lesser man than me.

 

I can't do the scale of CERN justice - I don't have the words or the time but the LHC ring itself is 17 miles long and crosses between France and Switzerland a number of times. It's all deep underground so that interference is minimised and the detector I saw being built (can't remember which one it was) is about the size of a small block of flats in a hollowed out chamber underground. Each collision they engineer generates terabytes of data that has to be stored and archived and dispatched around the computers of the world for simultaneous processing.

 

But to me the most impressive thing about their discoveries is not that they understand some really hairy-arsed maths and physics, but that they create engineering solutions to what appear like impossible challenges.

 

So how do you go about building a machine that can detect the neutrino - a particle that famously interacts so weakly with everything that it passes straight through matter without even wiping its little neutrino feet?

 

And when these particles collide travelling at near to the speed of light, how can you capture the impact and resulting carnage such that a human can 'see' the results? You can't use a camera with 1600 ASA film and you can't just put a microscope at the heart of the collision and watch. These things are small and fast. Very small and very fast. They simply are not visible in the conventional sense.

 

Instead you have to build experiments and equipment that looks for what isn't there, and you have to imply by tiny changes in magnetic fields that something has or hasn't passed through. And you have to do all this with such precision that you can be sure that the blip on the chart is a Higgs Boson and not just a train on the Geneva underground system - seriously the detectors are that powerful that changes in electrical current miles away have to be accounted for.

 

Mind-blowing.

 

Great story and questions.

 

Which is why most mere mortals hold these guys in totally respect.

 

If mankind had never experimented he would have never worked out how to turn a stone into a tool.

 

Too many people & cartels hold back pure research in so many fields that could enhance our lives

[Saintandy666]

It truly was View From The Top.

 

I must have been a pretty poor dinner companion because I just kept asking stupid question after stupid question and you soon realise that there is such a gulf in knowledge between the layman and these guys that finding some form of common ground upon which they can start to build my knowledge took forever.

 

One of them urged me to read Richard Feynman's : QED The Strange Theory of Light and Matter. In the grand scheme of things it's not very advanced at all (I suspect that is why he recommended it) but is well written and it set me on a journey of discovery ever since. Anyone who has seen the double-slit photon experiment and doesn't spend some part of the rest of their days wanting to know "why?" is a better, or perhaps lesser man than me.

 

I can't do the scale of CERN justice - I don't have the words or the time but the LHC ring itself is 17 miles long and crosses between France and Switzerland a number of times. It's all deep underground so that interference is minimised and the detector I saw being built (can't remember which one it was) is about the size of a small block of flats in a hollowed out chamber underground. Each collision they engineer generates terabytes of data that has to be stored and archived and dispatched around the computers of the world for simultaneous processing.

 

But to me the most impressive thing about their discoveries is not that they understand some really hairy-arsed maths and physics, but that they create engineering solutions to what appear like impossible challenges.

 

So how do you go about building a machine that can detect the neutrino - a particle that famously interacts so weakly with everything that it passes straight through matter without even wiping its little neutrino feet?

 

And when these particles collide travelling at near to the speed of light, how can you capture the impact and resulting carnage such that a human can 'see' the results? You can't use a camera with 1600 ASA film and you can't just put a microscope at the heart of the collision and watch. These things are small and fast. Very small and very fast. They simply are not visible in the conventional sense.

 

Instead you have to build experiments and equipment that looks for what isn't there, and you have to imply by tiny changes in magnetic fields that something has or hasn't passed through. And you have to do all this with such precision that you can be sure that the blip on the chart is a Higgs Boson and not just a train on the Geneva underground system - seriously the detectors are that powerful that changes in electrical current miles away have to be accounted for.

 

Mind-blowing.

 

Great post. I love science and I hate when people just so stupidly and shallowly dismiss it all as some 'conspiracy'.