Remembering RAF Bomber Command

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

First off I'll state here and now that my admiration for the men of Bomber Command knows no limit. I've spent far too much of my life studying the history of WWII in general, and that of the strategic bombing campaign in particular, to ever dare question the level of courage and dedication - in the face of horrendous casualty rates - displayed by these predominantly young bomber crews.

 

But there is another hard historical truth at play here. The technology available to the RAF in the early 1940's meant that it was a practical impossibility to accurately target German war industries in bad weather or at night. So we had little choice but to instigate a policy known as 'Area Bombing' instead, which - truth be told - amounted to little more than a brutal attempt blast and burn whole German towns & cities, to dehouse and/or kill so many civilians that their war economy and 'will to resist' might eventually collapse.

 

Well the terrible truth is that Area Bombing failed to win or decisively shorten the war, and German civilians were no more likely to suffer a moral collapse under bombardment then the British people were during the horrors of the Blitz. Instead of destroying the Nazi war economy the record shows that armament production actualy greatly increased as the bombing offensive escalated. Furthermore the vast strain imposed on our economy constructing all those thousands of technically complex Lancaster, Halifax and Stirling four engined bombers was without doubt detrimental to our wider war effort.

 

So let us remember and honour the awesome 55,000 man sacrifice of RAF Bomber Command during WWII, but we should also remember the innocent men, women and children killed during the bomber offensive too. But above all let us remember that war is the greatest of all Human follies.

[doddisalegend]

It was a war nasty stuff happens the British Air staff hardly tried to hide the reason for their bombing. I always find it odd that as country we feel need the need to apoligize for things done in a war where far worse was done by many other nations is Europe (and asia). As a country we did what we felt we needed to do to win a terrible war. In hindsight it's easy to point out the mistakes but back in those dark days of the 1940s things probably looked a lot different than they do 65 years on. We did what we had to do and claiming the bombing was a waste of time...seems to me to diminsh the sacrfice made by those bomber crews ,my great uncle included, IMO of course.

 

The purpose of the area bombardment of cities was laid out in a British Air Staff paper, dated September 23, 1941:

 

"The ultimate aim of an attack on a town area is to break the morale of the population which occupies it. To ensure this, we must achieve two things: first, we must make the town physically uninhabitable and, secondly, we must make the people conscious of constant personal danger. The immediate aim, is therefore, twofold, namely, to produce (i) destruction and (ii) fear of death."[127]

Edited 30 June, 2012 by doddisalegend

[OldNick]

They were alongside submariners and those of the Artic convoys the bravest of the brave. When you think how many of us fear flying on holiday, and what they went through when they were protected by very little and ack ack nightfighters etc attacking them. It is to Churchill and other politicians shame that they were not honoured before.

Yes the Dresden bombing may have been a bit much but they followed their orders and it saved many allies lives as it diverted so much from the Russian front.

[alpine_saint]

I dont get all the hand-wringing about their role. Nazi Germany invented the strategy in the first place, when the Luftwaffe flattened Guernica during the Spanish Civil War.

 

He who lives by the sword and all that...

[alpine_saint]

They were alongside submariners and those of the Artic convoys the bravest of the brave. When you think how many of us fear flying on holiday, and what they went through when they were protected by very little and ack ack nightfighters etc attacking them. It is to Churchill and other politicians shame that they were not honoured before.

Yes the Dresden bombing may have been a bit much but they followed their orders and it saved many allies lives as it diverted so much from the Russian front.

 

The Arctic convoy survivors are still awaiting recognition; they are more honoured in Murmansk than they are in London........

[OldNick]

should I be surprised that this thread has only 4 posts when the new kit one has about 40 pages on the main site.

Perhaps my appreciation of the debt we owe to these people is going to fade out with my generation,

[hypochondriac]

should I be surprised that this thread has only 4 posts when the new kit one has about 40 pages on the main site.

Perhaps my appreciation of the debt we owe to these people is going to fade out with my generation,

 

TBF this thread was started today. It's also a saints website and this is in the lounge where not many people go...

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

should I be surprised that this thread has only 4 posts when the new kit one has about 40 pages on the main site.

Perhaps my appreciation of the debt we owe to these people is going to fade out with my generation,

 

The new kit is awful but I will always be in awe of those guys. I think that OP understates the bombings impact on German morale; this took the Blitz to another level. It also raised our morale at home. Production inevitable fell it depends at what point you are looking at.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

I dont get all the hand-wringing about their role. Nazi Germany invented the strategy in the first place, when the Luftwaffe flattened Guernica during the Spanish Civil War.

 

He who lives by the sword and all that...

 

Yes my friend Nazi war criminals deserved everything they got and more if that were only possible. But I don't find it quite so easy to condemn a whole nation on a 'they had it coming' basis. What about the people who never voted for the Nazi party (the majority of the German nation as it happens) or even more so the many thousands of utterly innocent children who weren't even born when Hitler came to power but were immolated in the Hamburg, Dresden, and Kassel firestorms anyway? Did they deserve their terrible fates more or less so than the children of Coventry or those condemned to the horrors of the Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration camp?

 

I suspect none of us reading this thread has or ever will be called upon to do anything nearly as momentous as flying a operational bombing mission over occupied Europe during WWII, but I hope I've read enough harrowing accounts from those who did to gain the smallest of insights into what they went through. These were mostly ordinary young men called upon to perform extraordinary tasks. The stress and danger they lived with on a daily basis hardly bares thinking about, it's certainly more than I could cope with. Their prospects of surviving a operational tour of duty in Bomber Command were shockingly poor in truth, and yet the vast majority of them carried on flying anyway. More than 55,000 of them paid the ultimate price for that level of devotion.

 

But did the results obtained by the strategic bombing campaign justify that enormous Human sacrifices made? How should surviving Bomber Command aircrew had felt about their war service when it was all over knowing that they may well have killed people who had done nothing to deserve it? Proud, ashamed, both maybe? These questions are lost in a moral maze and there are no easy answers that this poor student of history can see.

 

Perhaps that is the greatest pity of war, in order to resist your enemy ... you must become like them.

[View From The Top]

They were brave young men who history tried to ignore.

 

Despite the rights or wrongs of area strategic bombing those men flying those missions deserve all the recognition they are now getting.

 

Least we forget.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Yes my friend Nazi war criminals deserved everything they got and more if that were only possible. But I don't find it quite so easy to condemn a whole nation on a 'they had it coming' basis. What about the people who never voted for the Nazi party (the majority of the German nation as it happens) or even more so the many thousands of utterly innocent children who weren't even born when Hitler came to power but were immolated in the Hamburg, Dresden, and Kassel firestorms anyway? Did they deserve their terrible fates more or less so than the children of Coventry or those condemned to the horrors of the Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration camp?

 

I suspect none of us reading this thread has or ever will be called upon to do anything nearly as momentous as flying a operational bombing mission over occupied Europe during WWII, but I hope I've read enough harrowing accounts from those who did to gain the smallest of insights into what they went through. These were mostly ordinary young men called upon to perform extraordinary tasks. The stress and danger they lived with on a daily basis hardly bares thinking about, it's certainly more than I could cope with. Their prospects of surviving a operational tour of duty in Bomber Command were shockingly poor in truth, and yet the vast majority of them carried on flying anyway. More than 55,000 of them paid the ultimate price for that level of devotion.

 

But did the results obtained by the strategic bombing campaign justify that enormous Human sacrifices made? How should surviving Bomber Command aircrew had felt about their war service when it was all over knowing that they may well have killed people who had done nothing to deserve it? Proud, ashamed, both maybe? These questions are lost in a moral maze and there are no easy answers that this poor student of history can see.

 

Perhaps that is the greatest pity of war, in order to resist your enemy ... you must become like them.

 

I seem to remember that most did vote for him.

[suewhistle]

Oh I don't forget..

 

Ed Treacher, of Campbell Road, Eastleigh died over the Ruhr towards the end of the war. He was an air-gunner.

 

My dad was in the same gang. He became a pilot, for which the training was a lot longer, and he never made active service.

 

I remember all right.

[View From The Top]

I seem to remember that most did vote for him.

 

Wrong.

[View From The Top]

Oh I don't forget..

 

Ed Treacher, of Campbell Road, Eastleigh died over the Ruhr towards the end of the war. He was an air-gunner.

 

My dad was in the same gang. He became a pilot, for which the training was a lot longer, and he never made active service.

 

I remember all right.

 

My great uncle Stan was a Lancaster pilot who eventually became a Pathfinder. Flew over 40 missions over occupied Europe.

 

DFC with Bar.

 

The only officer in my families long martial history.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Wrong.

 

So what happened when they all voted in 1934?

[Ken Tone]

The Arctic convoy survivors are still awaiting recognition; they are more honoured in Murmansk than they are in London........

 

My father was on Artic Convoy escort duty in a tiny little corvette. He had a medal from Russia that he was not even allowed to wear in the UK. Any belated recognition now by our government will be too late for him.

 

Glad to see the few survivors of bomber command getting recognition. The death rate for them was appalling. Of course the civilian deaths were dreadful. War is dreadful.

[View From The Top]

So what happened when they all voted in 1934?

 

Perhaps you should go away and read up on how Hitler & the Nazis came to power. I'd start at the 1932 elections and take it from there.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Perhaps you should go away and read up on how Hitler & the Nazis came to power. I'd start at the 1932 elections and take it from there.

 

Thank you but I am relatively well read up on the subject and 89.9% voted in the 1934 referendum to merge the posts of Chancellor and President making him Supreme Leader (I glanced at Wikipedia to check). I would suggest that was quite an endorsement.

[derry]

When I was doing my flying training I lived for a year with Wing Cmdr Rupert Oakley DSO DFC DFM AFC who did 73 missions. Flew Hampdens, Manchesters, Lancasters and Mosquitos as pathfinder and master bomber. I talked to him a lot during that time and was shown his logbook and his mothers scrap book as a result. After the war he was the first Vickers Valiant squadron commander. One of my first instructors was a Czech fighter pilot, another a Coastal command pilot, most of the Captains I flew with as a young co-pilot were ex war time pilots. One a Typhoon pilot took part in a rocketing of two passenger liners in Lubeck harbour the allies thought were taking SS etc out of Germany but found later they were packed with typhus victims.

 

To a man, none of them moralised, tried to justify anything, they just served in the RAF, did their duty, killed the enemy and survived. They went where they were told, hated the Nazis and did all they could to win the war. Those that want to moralise now are idiots. I came to Southampton as a four year old and saw the damage done by the German bombing during the war. Whole swathes of Southampton were flattened, the Germans started area bombing in WW1 with Zeppelin raids on London, in WW2 Holland, Poland and England. The Germans paid the price.

[View From The Top]

Thank you but I am relatively well read up on the subject and 89.9% voted in the 1934 referendum to merge the posts of Chancellor and President making him Supreme Leader (I glanced at Wikipedia to check). I would suggest that was quite an endorsement.

 

You know how it got to that point of course?

 

As I suggested previously, read up about the rise of the Nazis & perhaps you'll understand how that 1934 decision was reached.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

You know how it got to that point of course?

 

As I suggested previously, read up about the rise of the Nazis & perhaps you'll understand how that 1934 decision was reached.

 

I am not AJP Taylor but yes I am aware of the build up to the 1934 referendum. I am not one who buys into the view that Hitler came to power without the tacit approval of most Germans. I am also rather embarrassed to admit I would probably have voted for him if I had been a German in 1933.

[ericofarabia]

.

 

To a man, none of them moralised, tried to justify anything, they just served in the RAF, did their duty, killed the enemy and survived. They went where they were told, hated the Nazis and did all they could to win the war. Those that want to moralise now are idiots. I came to Southampton as a four year old and saw the damage done by the German bombing during the war. Whole swathes of Southampton were flattened, the Germans started area bombing in WW1 with Zeppelin raids on London, in WW2 Holland, Poland and England. The Germans paid the price.

 

So true.

 

I have a mate who flew Tornados during the 1st Gulf War. They were flying low level strategic target missions, and as such had a much higher loss rate than the US high level carpet bombing or Cruise missile attacks. They were subject to horrendous anti aircraft fire from the ground, but if they couldn't virtually guarantee a direct hit they didn't drop the bomb.

 

The random shelling in Egypt, Libya and Syria recently, and the continuous Car Bomb attacks on civilians in Afghan, Iraq and Pakistan makes a mockery of a "code of conduct" in war.

 

God Bless All Our Fallen Heroes and those who are serving now.

Edited 30 June, 2012 by ericofarabia

[alpine_saint]

When I was doing my flying training I lived for a year with Wing Cmdr Rupert Oakley DSO DFC DFM AFC who did 73 missions. Flew Hampdens, Manchesters, Lancasters and Mosquitos as pathfinder and master bomber. I talked to him a lot during that time and was shown his logbook and his mothers scrap book as a result. After the war he was the first Vickers Valiant squadron commander. One of my first instructors was a Czech fighter pilot, another a Coastal command pilot, most of the Captains I flew with as a young co-pilot were ex war time pilots. One a Typhoon pilot took part in a rocketing of two passenger liners in Lubeck harbour the allies thought were taking SS etc out of Germany but found later they were packed with typhus victims.

 

To a man, none of them moralised, tried to justify anything, they just served in the RAF, did their duty, killed the enemy and survived. They went where they were told, hated the Nazis and did all they could to win the war. Those that want to moralise now are idiots. I came to Southampton as a four year old and saw the damage done by the German bombing during the war. Whole swathes of Southampton were flattened, the Germans started area bombing in WW1 with Zeppelin raids on London, in WW2 Holland, Poland and England. The Germans paid the price.

 

This.

[alpine_saint]

I am not AJP Taylor but yes I am aware of the build up to the 1934 referendum. I am not one who buys into the view that Hitler came to power without the tacit approval of most Germans. I am also rather embarrassed to admit I would probably have voted for him if I had been a German in 1933.

 

The terrace chant "you only sing when you're winning" might have been written for the German people during WW2.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

When I was doing my flying training I lived for a year with Wing Cmdr Rupert Oakley DSO DFC DFM AFC who did 73 missions. Flew Hampdens, Manchesters, Lancasters and Mosquitos as pathfinder and master bomber. I talked to him a lot during that time and was shown his logbook and his mothers scrap book as a result. After the war he was the first Vickers Valiant squadron commander. One of my first instructors was a Czech fighter pilot, another a Coastal command pilot, most of the Captains I flew with as a young co-pilot were ex war time pilots. One a Typhoon pilot took part in a rocketing of two passenger liners in Lubeck harbour the allies thought were taking SS etc out of Germany but found later they were packed with typhus victims.

 

To a man, none of them moralised, tried to justify anything, they just served in the RAF, did their duty, killed the enemy and survived. They went where they were told, hated the Nazis and did all they could to win the war. Those that want to moralise now are idiots. I came to Southampton as a four year old and saw the damage done by the German bombing during the war. Whole swathes of Southampton were flattened, the Germans started area bombing in WW1 with Zeppelin raids on London, in WW2 Holland, Poland and England. The Germans paid the price.

 

I had tried my level best to get over the point that although I have my reservations regarding both the morality and the effectiveness of the RAF's Area Bombing campaign during WWII, I have nothing but admiration for the aircrew tasked with carrying out this policy. It seems I have failed in that ambition. A great many wartime British citizens thought exactly like you do regarding the justification of inflicting so much suffering on the wartime German civil population - what Sir Arthur Harris memorably described as "reaping the whirlwind". But even during the war some did dare to question the morality of this policy, so this debate is as old as Area Bombing itself.

 

I put it to you that the reason we have waited six decades for a proper national memorial to Bomber Command to be approved is because the bombing of civilians - by either side - is not just a matter for moralizing "idiots" such as myself, but a questionable concept that this great nation has felt distinctly uncomfortable with ever since 1945. I've reached a stage in my life when arguments that amount to 'well they started it' seem better suited to the playground that a discourse among adults. Had area bombing shortened the war appreciably then that would have been a justification (of sorts) for what happened. But the consensus of historical opinion is that the policy failed - so where does that leave us?

 

The young men flying bombers over German targets were no more responsible for the horrors of area bombing that the young women in the aircraft factory who made the bomber, the sailor on the oil tanker who risked his life to fuel it, or anyone else who participated in the war effort for that matter. But nothing should stop us remembering that terrible things are done sometimes in even the most noble of causes.

[ericofarabia]

the terrace chant "you only sing when you're winning" might have been written for the german people during ww2.

 

lol

[OldNick]

All these things need to be looked at in the 'at the time scenario' We were threatened as a nation until the very last knockings of the war. The Germans were technically superior to the Allies in many areas and they were also close to making breakthroughs in the nuclear option. They had the rockets and capabilities of delivering a knock-out weapon. We had to do that was neccessary to conclude the war and without a doubt our ability to read the Enigma codes etc gave the Allies a huge advantage. Some of this information was fed to Russia and so they could also win major battles that changed some of the course of the war , Kurst being one. It was not a foregone conclusion by any means that we were winning, and frankly if it saved 1000 Allied soldiers lives it may have been worht it. The civilian population were part of the German war machine. Politicians were to blame for the whole lot , not the bomber boys. It is to the nations shame that they have felt the lepers of our armed forces and to this day feel almost embarrassed to have been part of the force.

At long last they are honoured, far too late but at least some can feel the pride

[derry]

I had tried my level best to get over the point that although I have my reservations regarding both the morality and the effectiveness of the RAF's Area Bombing campaign during WWII, I have nothing but admiration for the aircrew tasked with carrying out this policy. It seems I have failed in that ambition. A great many wartime British citizens thought exactly like you do regarding the justification of inflicting so much suffering on the wartime German civil population - what Sir Arthur Harris memorably described as "reaping the whirlwind". But even during the war some did dare to question the morality of this policy, so this debate is as old as Area Bombing itself.

 

I put it to you that the reason we have waited six decades for a proper national memorial to Bomber Command to be approved is because the bombing of civilians - by either side - is not just a matter for moralizing "idiots" such as myself, but a questionable concept that this great nation has felt distinctly uncomfortable with ever since 1945. I've reached a stage in my life when arguments that amount to 'well they started it' seem better suited to the playground that a discourse among adults. Had area bombing shortened the war appreciably then that would have been a justification (of sorts) for what happened. But the consensus of historical opinion is that the policy failed - so where does that leave us?

 

The young men flying bombers over German targets were no more responsible for the horrors of area bombing that the young women in the aircraft factory who made the bomber, the sailor on the oil tanker who risked his life to fuel it, or anyone else who participated in the war effort for that matter. But nothing should stop us remembering that terrible things are done sometimes in even the most noble of causes.

 

Millions were exterminated by the third Reich. Millions of Russians killed by the Germans. Poland, Holland, France, Denmark, Norway, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia annexed, unrestricted bombing, unrestricted submarine warfare, no noble cause there. If the bombing hadn't happened the Germans wouldn't have had to use massive resources to defend their cities and would have been much more difficult to defeat. We killed lots of Germans but probably saved a lot of allied lives in the process. The war would have lasted at least until August 1945 when the Atom bomb would have been used on Germany as it was on Japan.

[buctootim]

The Arctic convoy survivors are still awaiting recognition; they are more honoured in Murmansk than they are in London........

 

My Dad was on the Arctic convoys to Murmansk and Arkangel at 15 having joined the merchant navy at 14. Horrific danger and conditions at any age, let alone his - and far worse in the merchant navy because they were the actual targets of the U boats, not the RN ships. There was a good Daily Mail article late last year.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2062529/Frozen-hell-As-PM-resists-campaign-medal-survivors-Britains-Arctic-convoys-tell-horrific-conditions-faced-World-War-II.html

Edited 1 July, 2012 by buctootim

[alpine_saint]

My Dad was on the Arctic convoys to Murmansk and Arkangel at 15 having joined the merchant navy at 14. Horrific danger and conditions at any age, let alone his - and far worse in the merchant navy because they were the actual targets of the U boats, not the RN ships. There was a good Daily Mail article late last year.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2062529/Frozen-hell-As-PM-resists-campaign-medal-survivors-Britains-Arctic-convoys-tell-horrific-conditions-faced-World-War-II.html

 

Yeah, I read that at the time.

 

Currently re-reading HMS Ulysses - greatest book of all time.

[Saint in Paradise]

Talking of that rag the daily mail:_

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2166966/PETER-HITCHENS-The-heroes-Bomber-Command-deserve-memorial--unlike-butcher-led-them.html#ixzz1zP0DYUtj

 

I know what I would like to happen to hitchens I want him to be dropped from 20,000 feet without

a parachute.

 

What a deluded f###ing waste of oxygen EVEN WORSE THAN TCWTB

 

I haven't been this angry for a long time.

[Saint in Paradise]

My Dad was on the Arctic convoys to Murmansk and Arkangel at 15 having joined the merchant navy at 14. Horrific danger and conditions at any age, let alone his - and far worse in the merchant navy because they were the actual targets of the U boats, not the RN ships.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2062529/Frozen-hell-As-PM-resists-campaign-medal-survivors-Britains-Arctic-convoys-tell-horrific-conditions-faced-World-War-II.html

 

 

With respect to your Father I know my Father would have disagreed a tad as his RN ship was certainly a target during his

time on those convoys. He also was a target on the North Atlantic so much so that two RN ships were sunk whilst he was

aboard. Oh yes and he did one Malta convoy which also was attacked. Took me years and years to get even that info from

him as he refused to talk about the War.

[alpine_saint]

Talking of that rag the daily mail:_

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2166966/PETER-HITCHENS-The-heroes-Bomber-Command-deserve-memorial--unlike-butcher-led-them.html#ixzz1zP0DYUtj

 

I know what I would like to happen to hitchens I want him to be dropped from 20,000 feet without

a parachute.

 

What a deluded f###ing waste of oxygen EVEN WORSE THAN TCWTB

 

I haven't been this angry for a long time.

 

I tend to find myself in agreement with Hitchens sometimes, but then he throws what I can only describe as an attention-seeking curve-ball like this and he makes me angry.

 

I wonder if he really beleives this, or is just writing something deliberately provocative because he is contractially obliged to provide periodic copy to the Daily Mail.

[buctootim]

With respect to your Father I know my Father would have disagreed a tad as his RN ship was certainly a target during his

time on those convoys. He also was a target on the North Atlantic so much so that two RN ships were sunk whilst he was

aboard. Oh yes and he did one Malta convoy which also was attacked. Took me years and years to get even that info from

him as he refused to talk about the War.

 

I'm not in any way diminishing what others did during the war, many suffered terribly. I was simply making the point that if I had to choose between two bad options I'd rather be on a destroyer capable of 30 knots armed with sonar and depth charges than a 10 knot unarmed merchant loaded with ammunition.

Edited 2 July, 2012 by buctootim

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

I'm not in any way diminishing what others did during the war, many suffered terribly. I was simply making the point that if I had to choose between two bad options I'd rather be on a destroyer capable of 30 knots armed with sonar and depth charges than a 10 knot unarmed merchant loaded with ammunition.

 

Am, not sure on that one. I think it would have been more glamorous with more recognition at home being on a Destroer but would the U Boats not have targeted the destroyers first, as they represented the main threat to them.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Talking of that rag the daily mail:_

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2166966/PETER-HITCHENS-The-heroes-Bomber-Command-deserve-memorial--unlike-butcher-led-them.html#ixzz1zP0DYUtj

 

I know what I would like to happen to hitchens I want him to be dropped from 20,000 feet without

a parachute.

 

What a deluded f###ing waste of oxygen EVEN WORSE THAN TCWTB

 

I haven't been this angry for a long time.

 

You know I've carefully read this piece several times now and I can't find a single aspect of it that I can't at least partially agree with. Hitchens has made it quite clear that his criticism is confined to the policies pursued by Sir Arthur Harris, rather than the sacrifice of the aircrew unfortunate enough to find themselves under his misguided command. I'm sure Harris acted in good faith - he thought he was doing the right thing - but the historical record shows he was wrong about almost everything in the final analysis. The truth must be said however painful it is.

 

The culmination of Sir Arthur's disastrous leadership of Bomber Command was the campaign known as the 'Battle of Berlin' when he committed his force to the destruction of the Nazi capitol with the confident prediction that he could (in effect) win the war without the need for the D-Day landings and all that. The campaign started in November 1943 and by the time it was abandoned in March 1943 Bomber Command had lost over 1000 aircraft and 7000 men, the equivalent of his entire force at the start of the battle. Berlin was heavily damaged but remained very much a functioning command & industrial centre, the war would continue for another year.

 

The parallels between the Battle of Berlin and calamitous WWI battles such as the Somme or Passendale are hard to ignore in all honesty. Arthur Harris fought the war from behind the safety of a desk and lived on to the grand old age of 91. If I was you I'd spare my sense of compassion more for the 20 years olds he sent to their deaths rather than the officer responsible.

[alpine_saint]

You know I've carefully read this piece several times now and I can't find a single aspect of it that I can't at least partially agree with. Hitchens has made it quite clear that his criticism is confined to the policies pursued by Sir Arthur Harris, rather than the sacrifice of the aircrew unfortunate enough to find themselves under his misguided command. I'm sure Harris acted in good faith - he thought he was doing the right thing - but the historical record shows he was wrong about almost everything in the final analysis. The truth must be said however painful it is.

 

The culmination of Sir Arthur's disastrous leadership of Bomber Command was the campaign known as the 'Battle of Berlin' when he committed his force to the destruction of the Nazi capitol with the confident prediction that he could (in effect) win the war without the need for the D-Day landings and all that. The campaign started in November 1943 and by the time it was abandoned in March 1943 Bomber Command had lost over 1000 aircraft and 7000 men, the equivalent of his entire force at the start of the battle. Berlin was heavily damaged but remained very much a functioning command & industrial centre, the war would continue for another year.

 

The parallels between the Battle of Berlin and calamitous WWI battles such as the Somme or Passendale are hard to ignore in all honesty. Arthur Harris fought the war from behind the safety of a desk and lived on to the grand old age of 91. If I was you I'd spare my sense of compassion more for the 20 years olds he sent to their deaths rather than the officer responsible.

 

Oh come on. Thats war. Older more senior men sending younger men to their deaths. Thats not me being hard nosed or cold, thats the facts. Its happening now in Afghanistan, it happened in the Falklands, it happened in Ulster.

 

Harris came up with the strategy he though would ultimately shorten the war and save more Allied lives than it lost. For me, its difficult to draw a conclusion on that either way, even 70 years later. The only justifiable criticism I would make of him was, if he knew the Blitz failed to weaken the resolve of the people of London in 1940-41, why on earth he thought his strategy would weaken the resolve of Berliners, Dresdeners and Hamburgers in 1943-44 ? Did he really think that the moral dimension, the sense of righteousness, the sense of "they started it, we're finishing it" was the difference ??

 

You seem to have a particular bee-in-your-bonnet over this. Close family connection, some loved one lost in Bomber command ?

[OldNick]

You know I've carefully read this piece several times now and I can't find a single aspect of it that I can't at least partially agree with. Hitchens has made it quite clear that his criticism is confined to the policies pursued by Sir Arthur Harris, rather than the sacrifice of the aircrew unfortunate enough to find themselves under his misguided command. I'm sure Harris acted in good faith - he thought he was doing the right thing - but the historical record shows he was wrong about almost everything in the final analysis. The truth must be said however painful it is.

 

The culmination of Sir Arthur's disastrous leadership of Bomber Command was the campaign known as the 'Battle of Berlin' when he committed his force to the destruction of the Nazi capitol with the confident prediction that he could (in effect) win the war without the need for the D-Day landings and all that. The campaign started in November 1943 and by the time it was abandoned in March 1943 Bomber Command had lost over 1000 aircraft and 7000 men, the equivalent of his entire force at the start of the battle. Berlin was heavily damaged but remained very much a functioning command & industrial centre, the war would continue for another year.

 

The parallels between the Battle of Berlin and calamitous WWI battles such as the Somme or Passendale are hard to ignore in all honesty. Arthur Harris fought the war from behind the safety of a desk and lived on to the grand old age of 91. If I was you I'd spare my sense of compassion more for the 20 years olds he sent to their deaths rather than the officer responsible.

It is odd that such a bad leader was well loved by his men. i would have thought if he was as bad as some say they would not have been behind him.

At the time of the start of the bombing campaign we were on our knees , the countries morale was at an all time low. Hitting back by bombing did lift morale and also made the German people question whether the Allies were finished. it was the days before the internet and information was always difficult to get, hearing on the radio that the allies were finished and then bombs falling from the skies on them, would have made people question their leadership. Harris has always been a scapegoat but as more official documents come to light in time we may learn more.

[alpine_saint]

According to Wikipedia, the strategy of area bombing came from Lord Cherwell and was endorsed in-Cabinet, with Harris given the responsibility for implementation.

 

Finding the criticism of him even more difficult to understand.

[Petersfield Saint]

So let us remember and honour the awesome 55,000 man sacrifice of RAF Bomber Command during WWII, but we should also remember the innocent men, women and children killed during the bomber offensive too. But above all let us remember that war is the greatest of all Human follies.

 

Rather than argue the toss about rights, wrongs and controversies, I think this last line of the OP sums it up best.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

It is odd that such a bad leader was well loved by his men. i would have thought if he was as bad as some say they would not have been behind him.

At the time of the start of the bombing campaign we were on our knees , the countries morale was at an all time low. Hitting back by bombing did lift morale and also made the German people question whether the Allies were finished. it was the days before the internet and information was always difficult to get, hearing on the radio that the allies were finished and then bombs falling from the skies on them, would have made people question their leadership. Harris has always been a scapegoat but as more official documents come to light in time we may learn more.

 

From what I've read over the years Bomber Command aircrew held a somewhat ambivalent attitude towards their AOC. Some certainly admired what we might describe as his single-minded clarity of purpose, and his oratory was certainly be first rate at times. A great many others however found him a cold man no overly concerned with maximizing the survival prospects of the young bomber crews under his command. It must be said that although he is best remembered as 'Bomber' Harris in public, it is rather telling that within the service he was often privately referred to as 'Butcher' Harris - a nickname not earned solely for his well known enthusiasm for 'butchering' Germans.

 

But when you write that Sir Arthur Harris was made a scapegoat then I actualy agree with you to some extent at least. Area Bombing was a policy approved of at the very highest (Prime Ministerial) level, so you could reasonably argue that responsibility for it results lay with the War Cabinet or even Churchill personally. Even before the horrific destruction of the historic city of Dresden in 1945, many leading politicians and senior officers skillfully started to distance themselves from the excessive bloodshed that area bombing entailed as they (unlike Harris) could see that - with the war clearly in its final stages - wanton destruction on this scale would be very difficult to justify. It proved very convenient for some to blame it all on Sir Arthur.

 

Having said all that ultimately Harris still comes across as a cruel, inflexible man. A true (almost fanatical) believer in Area Bombing and the misguided theory that air power alone could win the war. It seems quite clear that he was so personally committed to proving that concept that he was prepared to kill any number of German civilians - and even his own men if need be - to prove the point. A psychotic personalty in all probability.

 

History has been very hard on the reputation of Arthur Harris, but it this case the judgment of history seems sound enough.

[alpine_saint]

From what I've read over the years Bomber Command aircrew held a somewhat ambivalent attitude towards their AOC. Some certainly admired what we might describe as his single-minded clarity of purpose, and his oratory was certainly be first rate at times. A great many others however found him a cold man no overly concerned with maximizing the survival prospects of the young bomber crews under his command. It must be said that although he is best remembered as 'Bomber' Harris in public, it is rather telling that within the service he was often privately referred to as 'Butcher' Harris - a nickname not earned solely for his well known enthusiasm for 'butchering' Germans.

 

But when you write that Sir Arthur Harris was made a scapegoat then I actualy agree with you to some extent at least. Area Bombing was a policy approved of at the very highest (Prime Ministerial) level, so you could reasonably argue that responsibility for it results lay with the War Cabinet or even Churchill personally. Even before the horrific destruction of the historic city of Dresden in 1945, many leading politicians and senior officers skillfully started to distance themselves from the excessive bloodshed that area bombing entailed as they (unlike Harris) could see that - with the war clearly in its final stages - wanton destruction on this scale would be very difficult to justify. It proved very convenient for some to blame it all on Sir Arthur.

 

Having said all that ultimately Harris still comes across as a cruel, inflexible man. A true (almost fanatical) believer in Area Bombing and the misguided theory that air power alone could win the war. It seems quite clear that he was so personally committed to proving that concept that he was prepared to kill any number of German civilians - and even his own men if need be - to prove the point. A psychotic personalty in all probability.

 

History has been very hard on the reputation of Arthur Harris, but it this case the judgment of history seems sound enough.

 

Harris was called "Butch" more than "Butcher" by RAF personnel. And it had nothing to do with some sort of blood-lust at killing Germans, it was due to his matter-of-fact cold response to the loss of so many aircrew. What was he supposed to do ? Give up the bombing missions ?

 

Harris introduced changes to bombing strategy such as Pathfinder aircraft in order to improve the accuracy of bombing missions and therefore reduce casualties as well.

 

I just think people get carried away at a man who, like so many others, was given a responsiblity and did his duty to the best of his abilities.

[Thedelldays]

Watching it now.

Absolute legends. I feel very angry that this country turned it's back on them so to speak

 

Actual living legends

[miserableoldgit]

The Arctic convoy survivors are still awaiting recognition; they are more honoured in Murmansk than they are in London........

My Dad was on the Arctic Convoys. He has got a badge for it! No medal- just a badge!

[miserableoldgit]

I am sick to death with the hand-wringing and revisionist history that seems to be prevelant in this country. The war was started by Hitler and his National Socialists. They wanted German domination of Europe and further afield. We were fighting for our very survival and we did what ever we could to defeat an evil enemy. It is no good looking back at history with modern eyes. You have to try and put yourself in the shoes of those that lived through this horror. Revisionists are not realists.

[Thedelldays]

Great programme

 

Those who ever around in the 40s will always be our greatest generation

[Dimond Geezer]

That was a fantastic programme, it never fails to move me when you hear these old fella recounting their stories. It's a travesty that its taken 70 years for them to be recognised.

[saint.tom.clancy]

A fantastic watch and fascinating to hear the stories. Anyone who missed it needs to watch it. A real eye opener and true heroes. Unbelievable at the amount of trips the few at the end made it through, I think it was 81 for the last chap? Remarkable considering a lot didn't make it past 6 or 7.

[a1ex2001]

I am sick to death with the hand-wringing and revisionist history that seems to be prevelant in this country. The war was started by Hitler and his National Socialists. They wanted German domination of Europe and further afield. We were fighting for our very survival and we did what ever we could to defeat an evil enemy. It is no good looking back at history with modern eyes. You have to try and put yourself in the shoes of those that lived through this horror. Revisionists are not realists.

 

It's not revisionist, there were plenty of people at the time telling Harris that he was killing the cream of British and Comenwealth youth in a pointless bombing campaign that was achieving little to no good. Pleanty of people told him where better to use his forces but he new best and stuck to his guns right up to the end. The real criminals are the politicians who knew he wasn't doing the right think but lacked the moral courage to sack him and replace him with a much more sensible commander in chief.

 

Thats not to take away from the bravery or the los of those who flew with Bomber Command and this memorial to there loss is long over due.

[Lighthouse]

I heard a story about a friend of a friend of a friend, basically a bit of an urban legend, no idea if it's true or not, about a tail gunner of a Lancaster who was on a mission when his plane got shot to pieces and was on fire. He left the rear turret to bail out, only to find all the parachutes were engulfed in flames. This chap decided he'd rather fall to his death than burn, so he opened the hatch and jumped out. Supposedly he landed on snow covered fir trees, with a big snow drift at the bottom and survived the impact without even a broken bone.

 

As I said, I can't vouch for the authenticity of that story, but if it is true it's just incredible. I wonder how long that bloke would have wandered around the forrest thinking 'feck me, there is an afterlife' before the Germans picked him up.