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Rangers' administration vs Portsmouth's vs Ours


kwsaint
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Can someone, in a nutshell, explain to me why Rangers are now royally f'd in what appears a small period of time since it was all announced....but Portsmouth still seem to be moving along, albeit in a backwards direction?

 

Because Rangers are hated by all other Scottish teams because of their allegiance to England and the Queen whilst Pompey must still have some negatives of the FA / Football League officials in a compromising position. that Harry got given in a brown paper bag.

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Can someone, in a nutshell, explain to me why Rangers are now royally f'd in what appears a small period of time since it was all announced....but Portsmouth still seem to be moving along, albeit in a backwards direction?

 

Rangers have already been liquidated due to the guy (Green) who took them over having his CVA rejected and indicating beforehand that he would liquidate them if that was the case. They were massively in debt due to not paying HMRC but it was HMRC who rejected the CVA (they always do due to not having preferred creditor status since 2003 and therefore always losing out on tax revenues, so it's a matter of principle not to support the defaulting on tax payments). With the Skates HMRC's share wasn't sufficient to block their CVA (which hasn't been paid in any way in the last 2 years).

 

Portsmouth will only get liquidated in the next few weeks when it becomes clear that no-one with a playing contract is going to defer their payments to allow them to emerge from their forthcoming CVA2. Failing that they'll get taken over by a bunch of fans who won't be able to pay the first month's wages anyway and go pop from there.

 

It's more complicated than that, but basically Rangers' debt was mostly to HMRC ("The Big Tax Case"*) and the new owner agreed to liquidate, thinking they'd get back into SPL (oops). Skates are blithely ignoring all debts, pretending they're not in trouble and whining to everyone to be able to spend more money they don't have.

 

The one thing that looks good in all this is the integrity of the SPL (at least now with the stated opposition to Rangers' re-entry to the SPL, as opposed to previously when Rangers were building up massive debt and stuffing 95% of their opponents).

 

I tried to keep it short but it just isn't.

 

 

* HMRC accused Rangers of massive tax underpayments on money given to employees between 2000/01 and 2009/10. Rangers appealed against the bill and the case has trundled on through First Tier Tax Tribunal hearings in October 2010, April, May and November 2011, and January this year. The disputed underpayment is around £24m but Rangers' liabilities could be far, far higher. "The total amount determined as due by HMRC in respect of this case is in the region of £75m, including interest and penalties," said administrators Duff & Phelps in their report to creditors on April 5. Or to put it another way, as former chairman Alastair Johnston did 14 months ago: "There's a 10,000lb gorilla in the room and you don't know what its appetite is."

Edited by The9
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Rangers have already been liquidated due to the guy (Green) who took them over having his CVA rejected and indicating beforehand that he would liquidate them if that was the case. They were massively in debt due to not paying HMRC but it was HMRC who rejected the CVA (they always do due to not having preferred creditor status since 2003 and therefore always losing out on tax revenues, so it's a matter of principle not to support the defaulting on tax payments). With the Skates HMRC's share wasn't sufficient to block their CVA (which hasn't been paid in any way in the last 2 years).

 

Portsmouth will only get liquidated in the next few weeks when it becomes clear that no-one with a playing contract is going to defer their payments to allow them to emerge from their forthcoming CVA2. Failing that they'll get taken over by a bunch of fans who won't be able to pay the first month's wages anyway and go pop from there.

 

It's more complicated than that, but basically Rangers' debt was mostly to HMRC ("The Big Tax Case") and the new owner agreed to liquidate, thinking they'd get back into SPL (oops). Skates are blithely ignoring all debts, pretending they're not in trouble and whining to everyone to be able to spend more money they don't have.

 

The one thing that looks good in all this is the integrity of the SPL (at least now with the stated opposition to Rangers' re-entry to the SPL, as opposed to previously when Rangers were building up massive debt and stuffing 95% of their opponents).

 

I tried to keep it short but it just isn't.

 

I'd say the one group of people to come out well from the Rangers mess is Scottish fans, who've pressured their clubs in the SPL to take a stand.

 

Can we expect similar from League One fans before PFC ride to the top of the table with their high earners and Premiership loanees?

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Because Rangers are hated by all other Scottish teams because of their allegiance to England and the Queen whilst Pompey must still have some negatives of the FA / Football League officials in a compromising position. that Harry got given in a brown paper bag.

 

You will note that this is not only cobblers, and not remotely amusing, but also displays ignorance of the fact that it was Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs which actually did for them despite their unionist and royalist tendencies - which is a far more delicious irony, clearly beyond the understanding of some.

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I'd say the one group of people to come out well from the Rangers mess is Scottish fans, who've pressured their clubs in the SPL to take a stand.

 

Can we expect similar from League One fans before PFC ride to the top of the table with their high earners and Premiership loanees?

 

Unfortunately the structure of the Football League isn't such that the clubs get to vote on it, so the fans don't get to lobby.

 

Agreed that the threats of other SPL clubs' fans by refusing to attend and damaging incomes (offsetting the financial benefits of having Rangers in the SPL) was probably the main driver, but nevertheless there's integrity in the process and honour in actually making the stand.

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I'd say the one group of people to come out well from the Rangers mess is Scottish fans, who've pressured their clubs in the SPL to take a stand.

 

Can we expect similar from League One fans before PFC ride to the top of the table with their high earners and Premiership loanees?

 

The SPL fans up there have got what they wanted as they're just sick of the Old Firm ruling the league. Will be funny though when their clubs are struggling financially due to the mass loss of revenue they'll suffer without Rangers.

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The SPL fans up there have got what they wanted as they're just sick of the Old Firm ruling the league. Will be funny though when their clubs are struggling financially due to the mass loss of revenue they'll suffer without Rangers.

 

Given that the league splits after everyone's played a couple of times, half the League would only get one visit from Rangers a season anyway, and one of the other top sides will get Champions League revenue instead of them. That's without even considering if the threatened boycotts would have had any cost to the clubs.

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Given that the league splits after everyone's played a couple of times, half the League would only get one visit from Rangers a season anyway, and one of the other top sides will get Champions League revenue instead of them. That's without even considering if the threatened boycotts would have had any cost to the clubs.

 

The chances of Motherwell or Hearts reaching the Group Stages of the Champions League is slim to none.

 

Not to mention the fact that the SPL TV deal is now void as one of the main stipulations of it is it shows all 4 Old Firm games. Imagine the amount they'll be re-offered will be peanuts.

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The chances of Motherwell or Hearts reaching the Group Stages of the Champions League is slim to none.

 

Not to mention the fact that the SPL TV deal is now void as one of the main stipulations of it is it shows all 4 Old Firm games. Imagine the amount they'll be re-offered will be peanuts.

 

Yeah, but they get a wad of cash for just turning up, even in the prelims.

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Just a thought on this. Would it not now be a prefect time for Rangers to apply to join the English leagues? If they are going to be stuffed in Scotland, why not be stuffed in England with the hope of a far greater reward a few years down the line.

Having said that, I have seen the proposals for a radical overhaul of the Scottish leagues on the back of all this, so maybe things will work out better for everyone up there after all.

Can't imagine everybody is going to get on too well up there though, not after what's gone on.

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Just a thought on this. Would it not now be a prefect time for Rangers to apply to join the English leagues?

 

I thought it was VERY interesting when they interviewed Green on SSN about the news that they would lose the SPL vote and when asked what he'd do next he said "apply to the SFA for affiliation, and then contact the Football League about membership". There's a word implied there, but he didn't actually say "Scottish", and like Swansea and Cardiff, etc. they'd need local (Scottish) FA affiliation even if they were joining the English League.

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Just a thought on this. Would it not now be a prefect time for Rangers to apply to join the English leagues? If they are going to be stuffed in Scotland, why not be stuffed in England with the hope of a far greater reward a few years down the line.

Having said that, I have seen the proposals for a radical overhaul of the Scottish leagues on the back of all this, so maybe things will work out better for everyone up there after all.

Can't imagine everybody is going to get on too well up there though, not after what's gone on.

 

You could see where this would lead with the GB team already in the Olympics goodbye to the home Nations especially when Blatter and Plattini get involved in that scenario.

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Rangers have already been liquidated due to the guy (Green) who took them over having his CVA rejected and indicating beforehand that he would liquidate them if that was the case. They were massively in debt due to not paying HMRC but it was HMRC who rejected the CVA (they always do due to not having preferred creditor status since 2003 and therefore always losing out on tax revenues, so it's a matter of principle not to support the defaulting on tax payments). With the Skates HMRC's share wasn't sufficient to block their CVA (which hasn't been paid in any way in the last 2 years).

 

Portsmouth will only get liquidated in the next few weeks when it becomes clear that no-one with a playing contract is going to defer their payments to allow them to emerge from their forthcoming CVA2. Failing that they'll get taken over by a bunch of fans who won't be able to pay the first month's wages anyway and go pop from there.

 

It's more complicated than that, but basically Rangers' debt was mostly to HMRC ("The Big Tax Case"*) and the new owner agreed to liquidate, thinking they'd get back into SPL (oops). Skates are blithely ignoring all debts, pretending they're not in trouble and whining to everyone to be able to spend more money they don't have.

 

The one thing that looks good in all this is the integrity of the SPL (at least now with the stated opposition to Rangers' re-entry to the SPL, as opposed to previously when Rangers were building up massive debt and stuffing 95% of their opponents).

 

I tried to keep it short but it just isn't.

 

 

* HMRC accused Rangers of massive tax underpayments on money given to employees between 2000/01 and 2009/10. Rangers appealed against the bill and the case has trundled on through First Tier Tax Tribunal hearings in October 2010, April, May and November 2011, and January this year. The disputed underpayment is around £24m but Rangers' liabilities could be far, far higher. "The total amount determined as due by HMRC in respect of this case is in the region of £75m, including interest and penalties," said administrators Duff & Phelps in their report to creditors on April 5. Or to put it another way, as former chairman Alastair Johnston did 14 months ago: "There's a 10,000lb gorilla in the room and you don't know what its appetite is."

 

The major difference is that PFC owe most of their cash to former owners, who hold some security on all the land around the stadium. This has a double impact: first, they can outvote HMRC (who would like nothing more than to extinguish every last breath from PFC) as they have a clear vested interest in preventing liquidation; but secondly, the very future of PFC, other than to somehow continue the crazy cycle of the last few years, hinges on clearing these secured creditors, buying the land around the ground, and then giving the ground the much overdue redevelopment, including installing some hostility boxes.

 

For me, without a major and genuine benefactor (unlike the money launderer / I can smell some big profit from the real estate plan - type they have had recently) the combination of playing contracts, huge creditor pay off and stadium rebuilding needs means they are doomed longer term, i just dont now when.

 

Rangers meanwhile, if they dont get into div 1, may well apply to join the Conference or League 2. If their income and profile is going to be Scot Div 3 then they have not much to lose by applying to join the enlglish leagues and within a few years, they could leave Celtic far behind. Just a thought! (EDIT - just seen the previous post, sorry. Others thinking the same then!)

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You could see where this would lead with the GB team already in the Olympics goodbye to the home Nations especially when Blatter and Plattini get involved in that scenario.

 

Having Swansea in the Premier League (and Football League for 100 years previously) hasn't been such a massive problem. Cardiff in the nPC, Newport and Wrexham in the Blue Square Premier, etc.

 

Actually all that's happened is there's finally been a ruling that the English-league based clubs can't represent Wales in Europe, and they're not entering the Welsh Cup any more, which they'd been excluded from for 15 years until last season anyway.

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Rangers wouldn't be allowed in the Football League. EUFA wouldn't allow them in European competitions, SFA would veto it and English clubs wouldn't be that daft to allow it. The cheating bastards had it good in Scotland but that wasn't enough. They cheated on paying the players and cheated the taxman. They are getting what they deserve. If they aren't getting any help in Scotland why should English clubs sacrifice themselves to allow Rangers to promote themselves through the League.

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Can someone, in a nutshell, explain to me why Rangers are now royally f'd in what appears a small period of time since it was all announced....but Portsmouth still seem to be moving along, albeit in a backwards direction?

In 3 words.

 

Future parachute payments.

 

Without them to come, they would be long gone.

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Rangers wouldn't be allowed in the Football League. EUFA wouldn't allow them in European competitions, SFA would veto it and English clubs wouldn't be that daft to allow it. The cheating bastards had it good in Scotland but that wasn't enough. They cheated on paying the players and cheated the taxman. They are getting what they deserve. If they aren't getting any help in Scotland why should English clubs sacrifice themselves to allow Rangers to promote themselves through the League.

 

UEFA wouldn't be able to prevent it as there are precedents all over the world - and though Scottish law is separate, GB is a sovereign state within it's own boundaries so they can't even make a case there. Add to that the EU's free trade regulations, and UEFA wouldn't have a leg to stand on. And didn't : Newport County won a restraint of trade case in the High Court over the FAW to be able to play in an English league whilst based in Wales just after the Maastricht Treaty came in.

 

The SFA also wouldn't have any power of veto, and if they refused to affiliate Rangers, the club could just affiliate to a Northern English FA and ground share in England whilst they put their legal case together quoting the precedent above. Newport played in Gloucestershire for 3 years...

 

Agreed re: cheating bastards though.

Edited by The9
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The chances of Motherwell or Hearts reaching the Group Stages of the Champions League is slim to none.

 

Not to mention the fact that the SPL TV deal is now void as one of the main stipulations of it is it shows all 4 Old Firm games. Imagine the amount they'll be re-offered will be peanuts.

 

Yeah, no chance. Next people will be thinking a bunch of kebab munchers from a holiday island in the med will be making the knock-out stage. pheft.

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UEFA wouldn't be able to prevent it as there are precedents all over the world - and though Scottish law is separate, GB is a sovereign state within it's own boundaries so they can't even make a case there. Add to that the EU's free trade regulations, and UEFA wouldn't have a leg to stand on. And didn't : Newport County won a restraint of trade case in the High Court over the FAW to be able to play in an English league whilst based in Wales just after the Maastricht Treaty came in.

 

The SFA also wouldn't have any power of veto, and if they refused to affiliate Rangers, the club could just affiliate to a Northern English FA and ground share in England whilst they put their legal case together quoting the precedent above. Newport played in Gloucestershire for 3 years...

 

Agreed re: cheating bastards though.

 

It won't happen as the FL won't take them. In football Scotland is a separate international entity and wouldn't even join in the olympics for fear of losing that status. Rangers would not be allowed to join the FL and play in Scotland.

Edited by derry
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APOEL are a far superior side to Hearts and Motherwell.

 

Only recently. Although my comment was slightly fascecious, the point is this what Plantini wants for the champions League, smaller teams getting a fair share of the income, therefore growing and getting further in the competition. Hearts may become the envy of the blue half of Glasgow.

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It won't happen as the FL won't take them. In football Scotland is a separate international entity and wouldn't even join in the olympics for fear of losing that status. Rangers would not be allowed to join the FL and play in Scotland.

 

Sorry you've lost me here, how is this any different to Cardiff, Swansea, Wrexham etc. They have joined the football league and play there football in Wales o.0

 

What is the difference if Rangers join the football league and play in Scotland.

 

I for one would take them. They have a huge fanbase and in a few years they could upset the apple cart with that kind of backing. Also, they would certainly offer something new and it would ultimately bum Celtic due to the massive difference in wealth and quality of football on offer. - Personally, and after the way Lennon et al have been ****ing us around - I think Celtic deserve a good bumming.

 

I also know a rangers fan and to be honest, they are quality fans. Yes the club cheated and spent beyond their means. But so did a lot of clubs. They have definitely had their punishment and if they are going to start again, better to do it in the English leagues in my honest opinion.

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The latest rumour north of the border is that Linlithgow Rose, one of the junior clubs up here (non-league in other words) is taking legal advice as after the shambles that was Gretna - the SFA put a rule in that any new club to the leagues (ie SPL or SFL) would need to supply 3 years accounts to be allowed to join. Obviously newco Rangers cannot provide that, so may lead to them spending some time in the non-league, or may just mean some compensation to be paid.

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Sorry you've lost me here, how is this any different to Cardiff, Swansea, Wrexham etc. They have joined the football league and play there football in Wales o.0

 

What is the difference if Rangers join the football league and play in Scotland.

 

I for one would take them. They have a huge fanbase and in a few years they could upset the apple cart with that kind of backing. Also, they would certainly offer something new and it would ultimately bum Celtic due to the massive difference in wealth and quality of football on offer. - Personally, and after the way Lennon et al have been ****ing us around - I think Celtic deserve a good bumming.

 

I also know a rangers fan and to be honest, they are quality fans. Yes the club cheated and spent beyond their means. But so did a lot of clubs. They have definitely had their punishment and if they are going to start again, better to do it in the English leagues in my honest opinion.

 

Rangers have been CHEATING for decades. The only way they could afford paying for their "superstars" was by hiding payments offshore & therefore avoiding tax. The Scottish media conveniently turned a blind eye until Internet, yes INTERNET, investigators started shouting. The SFA/SPL also ignored it until they couldn't any longer. They then tried to allow Rangers to dump their debts & come back as if nothing had happened. Thank God for the Scottish fans. Integrity won the day.

 

England ? Ask the Bury fans what they thought of being sacrificed to let them in. Ask Manchester if they enjoyed the "quality fans" during the UEFA Cup Final. Ask all the SPL Chairmen if they relished the threats received from these "quality fans". And if Rangers don't do as well as they think in Div 4 or whatever, ask yourselves if you would accept that they are too big to be relegated because of TV money. They even threatened their own players with court action this week. Note that they have still to be punished for going to court against FIFA regulations as well ! They quite simply won't accept that they have done anything wrong or anybody has any right to punish them.

 

I hear that only 13 Rangers players turned up for the start of training today........plus Gazza with a fishing rod & some chicken......

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It won't happen as the FL won't take them. In football Scotland is a separate international entity and wouldn't even join in the olympics for fear of losing that status. Rangers would not be allowed to join the FL and play in Scotland.

 

Like Wales is you mean ? With their top 2 teams in the English Premier League and Championship ? It's the EXACT same situation as Scotland, with the exception of Scotland's league being much more established.

 

And we will see how many Scottish players are in the Olympic squad - just because the SFA are paranoid doesn't mean Scottish players won't be involved (other than on ability of course).

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The border is there for a reason. Scottish clubs play in the Scottish leagues, and English clubs play in the English leagues.

 

Except Berwick, of course.

 

If Rangers were hellbent on playing their football in the English league, I don't see how it could be prevented. There are too many precedents. The only issue is which league would they start in, and when.

 

They would, of course, have to fight it out for English slots in Europe.

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The border is there for a reason. Scottish clubs play in the Scottish leagues, and English clubs play in the English leagues.

 

Except Berwick, of course.

 

If Rangers were hellbent on playing their football in the English league, I don't see how it could be prevented. There are too many precedents. The only issue is which league would they start in, and when.

 

They would, of course, have to fight it out for English slots in Europe.

 

And Gretna, for a while. And Cardiff, Swansea, Newport, Wrexham, Merthyr Town, Colwyn Bay, former Welsh Premier League Champions TNS whose ground is in Oswestry (http://www.saints-alive.co.uk/index.php/club-information/the-venue), Guernsey in the Combined Counties League, San Marinese teams in the Italian pyramid, Andorran sides in the Spanish Leagues, and probably many many more.

 

Any club anywhere in the EU has the right to play in any other nation's league and there's nothing much UEFA can do about it. It's only really convenience and history that prevent stuff like the mooted superleague for Scotland, Netherlands and Scandinavian teams a few years ago. Also, UEFA can't really complain about it for as long as Asian countries like Israel and Azerbaijan are part of UEFA...

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But Gretna only participated in ”non-league” football in England. Berwick Rangers are a proper league club in Scotland, and have been for as long as I can remember.

 

And everybody knows Wales isn't really a proper Country;)

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But Gretna only participated in ”non-league” football in England. Berwick Rangers are a proper league club in Scotland, and have been for as long as I can remember.

 

And everybody knows Wales isn't really a proper Country;)

 

Everybody except the welsh...

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Perhaps Robert Green ought to buy Portsmouth for £1.5M to creditors paid straight away and move the club to Glasgow and change its name to Rangers he will have the parachute payments to pay off chinny and into league 1 with a good chance of premiership in 2 to 3 years.

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Sorry you've lost me here, how is this any different to Cardiff, Swansea, Wrexham etc. They have joined the football league and play there football in Wales o.0

 

What is the difference if Rangers join the football league and play in Scotland.

 

I for one would take them. They have a huge fanbase and in a few years they could upset the apple cart with that kind of backing. Also, they would certainly offer something new and it would ultimately bum Celtic due to the massive difference in wealth and quality of football on offer. - Personally, and after the way Lennon et al have been ****ing us around - I think Celtic deserve a good bumming.

 

I also know a rangers fan and to be honest, they are quality fans. Yes the club cheated and spent beyond their means. But so did a lot of clubs. They have definitely had their punishment and if they are going to start again, better to do it in the English leagues in my honest opinion.

 

But what if, with their large fanbase, in 4 or 5 years time Rangers establish themselves as a permanent top 6 team in the EPL? This would mean one less spot for the also-rans (for example, let me think ... oh yes, Saints).

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Perhaps Robert Green ought to buy Portsmouth for £1.5M to creditors paid straight away and move the club to Glasgow and change its name to Rangers he will have the parachute payments to pay off chinny and into league 1 with a good chance of premiership in 2 to 3 years.

 

They could swap Rangers and Portsmouth around as the both play in Blue no one will notice!

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They could swap Rangers and Portsmouth around as the both play in Blue no one will notice!

 

Amusingly Rangers' new kit this season also has red socks rather than their more recent black/red ones, they couldn't look more like them if they tried. Although of course the Skates don't actually have a kit for next season at the moment because they can't pay for it.

 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSSKZBSuiykE4I6p_jAuQ1OClNLuzfXAZLZEjYv367AjzHhQSja

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But what if, with their large fanbase, in 4 or 5 years time Rangers establish themselves as a permanent top 6 team in the EPL? This would mean one less spot for the also-rans (for example, let me think ... oh yes, Saints).

 

If they can get to the top 6 of the Premier League within 4 or 5 years I don't see why we can't.

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Can someone, in a nutshell, explain to me why Rangers are now royally f'd in what appears a small period of time since it was all announced....but Portsmouth still seem to be moving along, albeit in a backwards direction?

 

Football Creditors Rule - Pompey's Administrator couldn't make players redundant to get them off the wage bill and attempt to restructure the club.

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Football Creditors Rule - Pompey's Administrator couldn't make players redundant to get them off the wage bill and attempt to restructure the club.

 

More than that, that Rangers didn't owe any significant money to football creditors.

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More than that, that Rangers didn't owe any significant money to football creditors.

 

Errrr...........over 3 million !

 

Including £800K they owed to Hearts for Wallace. Gone forever but somehow he keeps playing for Rangers. Funnier still is the million or so they owed to Rapid Vienna for Jelavic which they'll never get. However, Rangers are still insisting that Everton pay them the FULL amount for that subsequent transfer !

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