Lord Duckhunter Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 What are peoples thoughts about this historic event as an IRA leader and the Head of the British state make a hugely significant gesture. Whilst always believing that Ireland should be united, I have always felt that McGuinness is a murderous scumbag who belongs in jail. However this has finally convinced me that maybe I was wrong, maybe him and Adams are genuine. It is a very brave thing for him to do, as he could end up dead. And what about the Queen, despite being a staunch republican myself , she must take enormous credit for her part in this. Is the “war” finally over? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 Amazing gesture They both have lost loved ones in the past Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 What are peoples thoughts about this historic event as an IRA leader and the Head of the British state make a hugely significant gesture. Whilst always believing that Ireland should be united, I have always felt that McGuinness is a murderous scumbag who belongs in jail. However this has finally convinced me that maybe I was wrong, maybe him and Adams are genuine. It is a very brave thing for him to do, as he could end up dead. And what about the Queen, despite being a staunch republican myself , she must take enormous credit for her part in this. Is the “war” finally over? Agree with all of the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsaint Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 The idea of this makes me nauseous. However appeasement is most likely necessary in the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Charming Man Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 Wonder what the Queen thinks of it all? Shaking hands with someone who potentially was involved in the murder of her uncle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 As a staunch loyalist i'm fully in favour of this exercise to pacify our enemies. The Union Flag still flies proudly at Stormont and long may that continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 Thankfully times and attitudes change and society matures 9otherwise we would be stuck in that endless and futile cycle of violence) - Good on the Queen I say. McGuinnes and Adams renounced violence and ended their terrorism - yes there are justifiable claims that they did not get punsihed for their involvement in the atrocities of teh past, but as Mandela showed in SA, the only way everyone can truely move on is through truth and reconciliation, and not by revenge - that way you just ingrain bitterness and resentment for the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 As a staunch loyalist i'm fully in favour of this exercise to pacify our enemies. The Union Flag still flies proudly at Stormont and long may that continue. You truely are a joke living in some sort of imperialist past... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 What are peoples thoughts about this historic event as an IRA leader and the Head of the British state make a hugely significant gesture. Whilst always believing that Ireland should be united, I have always felt that McGuinness is a murderous scumbag who belongs in jail. However this has finally convinced me that maybe I was wrong, maybe him and Adams are genuine. It is a very brave thing for him to do, as he could end up dead. And what about the Queen, despite being a staunch republican myself , she must take enormous credit for her part in this. Is the “war” finally over? Just about sums it up I reckon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 You truely are a joke living in some sort of imperialist past... I'd rather be a joke than a bore... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastleighSoulBoy Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 Thankfully times and attitudes change and society matures 9otherwise we would be stuck in that endless and futile cycle of violence) - Good on the Queen I say. McGuinnes and Adams renounced violence and ended their terrorism - yes there are justifiable claims that they did not get punsihed for their involvement in the atrocities of teh past' date=' but as Mandela showed in SA, the only way everyone can truely move on is through truth and reconciliation, and not by revenge - that way you just ingrain bitterness and resentment for the future.[/quote'] Totally on the one FC. Hasn't the Queen also shaken hands with Mandela? This isn't appeasement, as in Neville Chamberlain, this is grown people rejecting their past and trying to make a future for us all. As a staunch loyalist i'm fully in favour of this exercise to pacify our enemies. The Union Flag still flies proudly at Stormont and long may that continue. You truely are a joke living in some sort of imperialist past... Totally on the one . . . again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 I'd rather be a joke than a bore... I'd rather be a bore than an ignorant right wing fantasist troll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 I'd rather be a bore than an ignorant right wing fantasist troll. Bore me up Franky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 Bore me up Franky. Folk that get bored so easily, usually have the attention span of a 5 year old and sh it for brains.... explains a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint in Paradise Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 I bet she has that glove burned in a furnace as soon as it can be arranged. This isn't meant to be a jokey reply BTW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint in Paradise Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 Folk that get bored so easily' date=' usually have the attention span of a 5 year old and sh it for brains.... explains a lot.[/quote'] Plus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 (edited) Wonder what the Queen thinks of it all? Shaking hands with someone who potentially was involved in the murder of her uncle. Ooops Edited 27 June, 2012 by alpine_saint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Charming Man Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 Cousin Ooops... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 Ooops... Nah, its uncle. I thought Charles called him "Uncle Dickie", not the Queen. F**king in-breeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 I have to say, they both look genuine, and this still photo does suggest if not exactly warmth, at least no frostiness. Well done to both of them, and to Peter Robinson, though I still wonder about the "finer details" of McGuiness's role in Bloody Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 Ooops Uncle. Surely you slavering royalists could get that right. Queenie called him 'Uncle Dickie'. His original surname was Battenburg, but like the rest of the royals his family simply abandoned their German names in 1917. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 Think its good to see - proves what futility there was with the whole issue and despite not being a royalist, think the Queen has shown her quality and is an example to all on how to accept and learn from the past, yet recognise that the only way forward is through such reconciliation. Doffs cap to HRH (something I would normally struggle with ;-)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 You truely are a joke living in some sort of imperialist past... Maybe, but the gist of his post is correct. Ulster is still part of the UK. Personally, I reckon Bin Laden did more to destroy the impetus behind the IRA than 30 years of British Army intervention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 27 June, 2012 Author Share Posted 27 June, 2012 As a staunch loyalist i'm fully in favour of this exercise to pacify our enemies. The Union Flag still flies proudly at Stormont and long may that continue. Have you noticed that McGuinness is now the deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland. Strange sort of "victory". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edprice1984 Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 It is important that this happens as it is another step to closing a horrific chapter in our recent history, but to me, McGuiness;Adams and the rest of Sinn Fein are still murdering b#st#rds!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 The "war" has been largely over since the Good Friday agreement. There are still hotspots of activity, like Derry. South Armagh is still referred to as bandit country. I was privileged enough to spend three years living and working in County Down - I still go back now. There are very few people who would look to resume hostilities, and there isn't any good reason to. The dissidents can bang on as much as they like about occupation, but the people of Northern Ireland have the right to self-determination. Under the circumstances, that's really the best we could have hoped for. There are underlying concerns about the economy. I think something like 2/3rds of the jobs over there are in the public sector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 Have you noticed that McGuinness is now the deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland. Strange sort of "victory". Think the point is though that there were no winners in all the years of the 'troubles' - just losers on both sides, with viiolence achieving nothing but pain for families of both sides - The recognition by Adams and McGuniness that there was never going to any chance of a resolution and political influence until weapons were laid down, may not have been a 'victory' but was far more important than any ****ing contest over who 'won'... The policy of devolved powers probably ahd a great deal to do with the direction things have gone and only for the better in my opinion. Ultimately, enough people realised they would have a better life if they were less obsessed with what flag was flying where, but focussed on having a political voice on issues that effect ALL the local population... they grew up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 Maybe, but the gist of his post is correct. Ulster is still part of the UK. Personally, I reckon Bin Laden did more to destroy the impetus behind the IRA than 30 years of British Army intervention. Part of Ulster is still in the UK Cavan, Donegal and Monaghan are in the Republic. I know. It was bloody confusing for me too. As a matter of interest, I believe the PC term ( least likely to offend anyone ) is the North of Ireland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 Part of Ulster is still in the UK Cavan, Donegal and Monaghan are in the Republic. I know. It was bloody confusing for me too. As a matter of interest, I believe the PC term ( least likely to offend anyone ) is the North of Ireland. Which is why its Ulster to me. Would love to know how the people of Ulster would currently vote in a referrendum. The proddies are just about still the majority, but what with Eire's economic issues and the relative prospertiy and peace of Ulster, I would say that Irish reunification is further away now than it has been since 1969. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 27 June, 2012 Author Share Posted 27 June, 2012 I remember a time when British politicans would say that Ulster is as much a part of the UK as London. That pretence has now been given up and we have ended up with a sort of half way house. My personal opinion is there is only one way this is headed and that's towards a united Ireland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 27 June, 2012 Author Share Posted 27 June, 2012 Would love to know how the people of Ulster would currently vote in a referrendum. The proddies are just about still the majority, but what with Eire's economic issues and the relative prospertiy and peace of Ulster, I would say that Irish reunification is further away now than it has been since 1969. I visit Dublin regulary and my republican friends will claim that any referrendum should be for the whole of Ireland. A united Ireland will affect the people in the South, so surely they should be given a vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 I visit Dublin regulary and my republican friends will claim that any referrendum should be for the whole of Ireland. A united Ireland will affect the people in the South, so surely they should be given a vote. As long as the rest of the UK gets a vote too, not a problem. Not convinced Eire would be a big majority in favour of unification anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 I remember a time when British politicans would say that Ulster is as much a part of the UK as London. That pretence has now been given up and we have ended up with a sort of half way house. My personal opinion is there is only one way this is headed and that's towards a united Ireland. But your comments indicate that you are clearly in the republican camp anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 27 June, 2012 Author Share Posted 27 June, 2012 Not convinced Eire would be a big majority in favour of unification anyway. I agree. What I've found is younger people do not have such a romantic view of a united Ireland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 (edited) Which is why its Ulster to me. Would love to know how the people of Ulster would currently vote in a referrendum. The proddies are just about still the majority, but what with Eire's economic issues and the relative prospertiy and peace of Ulster, I would say that Irish reunification is further away now than it has been since 1969. People in general are pragmatic - they want whatever political system gives them and their families the best quality of life and opportunity. In the past most Catholics were nationalist or republican because they were excluded from decent housing and from many of the employment opportunities. For example Belfast City Council wouldnt build new slum clearance housing on Catholic areas and major employers such as Harland & Wolf wouldnt employ catholics - living conditions were Victorian so the pull of a united Ireland was strong. Now with much of the discrimination and much of the old national boundaries largely gone also (being in the EU people can come and go) most people are less worried or driven by unification and the ideas of the past. As a lad Gerry Adams used to work for my uncle delivering newspapers. He got radicalised by inability to get into Queens university, get a job or decent housing. These people are made, not born. Edited 27 June, 2012 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 Just read that Mountbatten is the Queens cousin, and Phillips uncle. Talk about in-breeding.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 People of our ages (20 - 70) on both sides will squirm at that picture, but we have to get over it, without making comments infront of our kids and let the healing process continue. It needs to bleed through a number of generations, but we are on the right road and both deserve credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 People of our ages (20 - 70) on both sides will squirm at that picture, but we have to get over it, without making comments infront of our kids and let the healing process continue. It needs to bleed through a number of generations, but we are on the right road and both deserve credit. Good post. I personally reckon the issue is going away due to investment, equality laws and more sensitive policing, slowly but surely. The remnants of the IRA are more like an organised crime gang controlling things like the supply of drugs now. That's not to say they dont have the ability to switch back PDQ if something happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 One oddity over there is Londonderry/Derry. Any bus going there shows both names. Also, on work's "fun days", no-one is allowed to wear replica football shirts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 27 June, 2012 Author Share Posted 27 June, 2012 What gets my goat is the coverage of this and the constant "how wonderful the queen is" by making this gesture. As a non political head of state, she doesn't get to decide who she shakes hands with and who she doesn't.She just does what she's told to do as the figure head of our nation. The real courage here was shown by McGuinness, not only does he have a electrate to think about (many of whom will be sickened by this), but it wasn't so long ago that this gesture would be an act of suicide. Even now there could be a bullet with his name on. Why has he taken the risk? There was an expert on the IRA on TV last night. He claimed the whole thing was about making Adams electable in the South. He said that the IRA had got all they were going to get out of the Brits in the North, and were now turning their attention to politics in the South. He claimed that a sinnfein president would ramp the pressure up on the UK Government and if sinnfein could become the major party in the South, that would serve the interests of hard line Republicans more than an armed struggle in the North. Shaking hands with the Queen will soften their image to the mainstream voters in the South. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 What gets my goat is the coverage of this and the constant "how wonderful the queen is" by making this gesture. As a non political head of state, she doesn't get to decide who she shakes hands with and who she doesn't.She just does what she's told to do as the figure head of our nation. The real courage here was shown by McGuinness, not only does he have a electrate to think about (many of whom will be sickened by this), but it wasn't so long ago that this gesture would be an act of suicide. Even now there could be a bullet with his name on. Why has he taken the risk? There was an expert on the IRA on TV last night. He claimed the whole thing was about making Adams electable in the South. He said that the IRA had got all they were going to get out of the Brits in the North, and were now turning their attention to politics in the South. He claimed that a sinnfein president would ramp the pressure up on the UK Government and if sinnfein could become the major party in the South, that would serve the interests of hard line Republicans more than an armed struggle in the North. Shaking hands with the Queen will soften their image to the mainstream voters in the South. I guess though that such 'political' games are part and parcel of all politics - and miuch better than blowing people up. If SinnFein see a political route to their goals so much the better. Personnnaly I have never understood this ingrained need to be labeled or worry about flag/borders - most view these things based on short term historical claims - max 1000 years - if the 'history' of a border is used to justify nationaism, then surely I am equally justified in extending that history to 100,000 year or 100 million which just highlights the total boll ox that it is. Sure there have been injusticies that have left bitter tastes and the beliefe that alternatives would be better, but thats political not national. The sooner folk on this planet realise we have 80 or so years if lucky to enjoy our lives and not a lot lse matters, the sooner we can consign nationlistic BS to the bin and realise we are afterall all humans... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 What gets my goat is the coverage of this and the constant "how wonderful the queen is" by making this gesture. As a non political head of state, she doesn't get to decide who she shakes hands with and who she doesn't.She just does what she's told to do as the figure head of our nation. The real courage here was shown by McGuinness, not only does he have a electrate to think about (many of whom will be sickened by this), but it wasn't so long ago that this gesture would be an act of suicide. Even now there could be a bullet with his name on. Why has he taken the risk? There was an expert on the IRA on TV last night. He claimed the whole thing was about making Adams electable in the South. He said that the IRA had got all they were going to get out of the Brits in the North, and were now turning their attention to politics in the South. He claimed that a sinnfein president would ramp the pressure up on the UK Government and if sinnfein could become the major party in the South, that would serve the interests of hard line Republicans more than an armed struggle in the North. Shaking hands with the Queen will soften their image to the mainstream voters in the South. Leading the 'no' EU campaign in the South was part of trying to become more mainstream, but Sinn Fein have always been a left wing party, unelectably so in UK terms. That was less relevant to people when politics was primarily about being Nationalist or Loyalist but they will struggle in normalised elections, especially south of the border, unless they move to the middle imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 It was nice to see the queen shake hands with one of the most honourable men in Northern Ireland - The Reverand Paisley. God bless him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 (edited) Edited 27 June, 2012 by dune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 (edited) What gets my goat is the coverage of this and the constant "how wonderful the queen is" by making this gesture. As a non political head of state, she doesn't get to decide who she shakes hands with and who she doesn't.She just does what she's told to do as the figure head of our nation. The real courage here was shown by McGuinness, not only does he have a electrate to think about (many of whom will be sickened by this), but it wasn't so long ago that this gesture would be an act of suicide. Even now there could be a bullet with his name on. Why has he taken the risk? There was an expert on the IRA on TV last night. He claimed the whole thing was about making Adams electable in the South. He said that the IRA had got all they were going to get out of the Brits in the North, and were now turning their attention to politics in the South. He claimed that a sinnfein president would ramp the pressure up on the UK Government and if sinnfein could become the major party in the South, that would serve the interests of hard line Republicans more than an armed struggle in the North. Shaking hands with the Queen will soften their image to the mainstream voters in the South. I am not convinced that Cameron would have forced this handshake on here, once her feelings were known. I think she was probably willing. Considering that the IRA killed a beloved relative, it still shows remarkable forgiveness. If I have understood the relationship between Charles and Mountbatten correctly, and Charles's personality, I am not sure if this had been proposed during his upcoming regin that it would have happened. I do agree that McGuinness has show some fortitude of sorts, there could always be some hard-line whack-job republican out there with an unaccounted pistol that decides to react unfavourably to this gesture. As for all the Sinn Fein political strategy for Eire you mention, I really dont see how having Adams shouting the odds in Dublin would be any more effective than Kirchner shouting the odds in Buenos Aires, so if that is true its a naff strategy. Somewhat surprised and amused at the perception held that the IRA finally realised they werent going to win in Ulster... There is also the EU dimension to consider as well - does the nationalist cause really matter any more ? I said a couple of weeks ago that Eire agreeing to that EU financial treaty was somewhat ironic considering the nationalism background of the last century.. Edited 27 June, 2012 by alpine_saint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 Leading the 'no' EU campaign in the South was part of trying to become more mainstream, but Sinn Fein have always been a left wing party, unelectably so in UK terms. That was less relevant to people when politics was primarily about being Nationalist or Loyalist but they will struggle in normalised elections, especially south of the border, unless they move to the middle imo. I've heard different. My landlady in Ireland used to be an SDLP councillor, so we talk NI politics quite a lot. I asked her about Sinn Fein's political convictions beyond a united Ireland. Her view is that they are electoral opportunists, illustrating how they were on an anti-austerity ticket in the South while implementing cuts in the North. Obviously, you need to take the source into consideration. One of the things that annoys the moderate parties is that they worked a great deal to achieve the actual peace, yet the electorate went for relative extremists ( like SF and the DUP ) when they went to the polls. Funniest quip I've heard in NI:- "Racist? Not here. We're too busy being sectarian to be racist!" Not actually true though. Quite a bit of racial bother with Eastern Europeans a couple of years back in Belfast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 Ireland would be bloody daft to absorb the Six Counties as it would probably lead to a civil war. The protestant majority in the Six Counties would be a massive problem. They would never agree to reunification and it would have to be imposed. Even if there was a referendum in the 32 counties I suspect apart from the die hard Republicans the majority might well vote the same way as in 1923. It is not a problem they would want. The Six Counties would have been a lot smaller if the British government hadn't reneged on the promise of a referendum in 1923 for the border counties to determine whether they would rejoin the Free State. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 Ireland would be bloody daft to absorb the Six Counties as it would probably lead to a civil war. The protestant majority in the Six Counties would be a massive problem. They would never agree to reunification and it would have to be imposed. Even if there was a referendum in the 32 counties I suspect apart from the die hard Republicans the majority might well vote the same way as in 1923. It is not a problem they would want. The Six Counties would have been a lot smaller if the British government hadn't reneged on the promise of a referendum in 1923 for the border counties to determine whether they would rejoin the Free State. As a matter of fact, the Gaelic sports are played in the Six Counties, the tricolour is the national flag flying and the only anthem used is the Irish "The soldiers song". Leave well alone is the best way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 27 June, 2012 Share Posted 27 June, 2012 The old Duke didn't have any of it though. He cut Martin McGuinness dead even when MM went to talk to him he legged it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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