Julian Assange

[pedg]

Just when I thought we might finally be rid of him he has gone to the Ecuadorian embassy and asked for political asylum!

 

Obviously very confident in his declared innocence!

[Saintandy666]

Wikileaks was great, but then it just became about him and overtly political. Very disappointed in him. He should just go to Sweden and stand trial, it's hardly a country with a reputation for unfair justice.

[Seaford Saint]

Wikileaks was great, but then it just became about him and overtly political. Very disappointed in him. He should just go to Sweden and stand trial, it's hardly a country with a reputation for unfair justice.

 

Do younot think he is being set up with the ultimate goal of the US To get him to the US to stand trial. We all know what kind of justice he will get out there.

[Saintandy666]

Do younot think he is being set up with the ultimate goal of the US To get him to the US to stand trial. We all know what kind of justice he will get out there.

 

I guess that's the fear, but if we haven't sent him to the US, why can Sweden suddenly send him over there. I don't know the ins and outs of British-Swedish-American extradition treaties so this is an honest question.

[Seaford Saint]

29 February 2012: Stratfor e-mails have revealed that a sealed indictment has been issued by a secret grand jury in Alexandria, Virginia, for Julian Assange. The email is dated 26 January 2011. This means that there has likely been a sealed extradition order for over a year, which will be activated (unsealed) against Assange in Sweden, Australia and the UK when the US Government gives the order.

[Seaford Saint]

Whether this is true something is not right about this....

[pedg]

The main thing against this 'Sweden with extradite him to the US' conspiracy theory is that it would be a lot easier if the US just tried to have him extradited from the UK in the first place. As it is he can't be extradited from Sweden to the US unless the UK approve anyway.

[pedg]

29 February 2012: Stratfor e-mails have revealed that a sealed indictment has been issued by a secret grand jury in Alexandria, Virginia, for Julian Assange. The email is dated 26 January 2011. This means that there has likely been a sealed extradition order for over a year, which will be activated (unsealed) against Assange in Sweden, Australia and the UK when the US Government gives the order.

 

You can be fairly sure that Sweden will insist he is questioned and possibly tried in the sweden before they consider passing him on the the US. Even if this hidden indictment thing is an extradition REQUEST it would not override the current investigation in sweden,

[pedg]

Also interesting that by doing what he has done he may forfeit the £200,000 bail his supporters paid to keep him out of jail while he appealed against everything possible. Apparently he has raised £180,000 in a defence fund but I have a sneaking suspicion it may not end up being used to recompense those that paid his bail.

[Viking Warrior]

This guy has something to hide. If he is so innocent of the charges why dosent he just go to sweden and let natural justice take place. He is as bad as quatada and abil hanza using human rights etc to protest about their innocence and that their human rights have been infringed.

 

The clerics should have been kicked out years ago

[pedg]

This guy has something to hide. If he is so innocent of the charges why dosent he just go to sweden and let natural justice take place.

 

I see some of his supporters are saying he did this as he obviously thought he would not get a fair trial in sweden. I think he did it because he is scared he will get a fair trial in sweden.

[Guest Dark Sotonic Mills]

I see some of his supporters are saying he did this as he obviously thought he would not get a fair trial in Sweden. I think he did it because he is scared he will get a fair trial in Sweden.

 

He did it because there is a warrant issued in the US for him. If he gets to Sweden, the US will immediately apply for his extradition and he faces a hell of a worse scenario over there as they hate people telling the truth about the government and big business.

[dune]

He did it because there is a warrant issued in the US for him. If he gets to Sweden, the US will immediately apply for his extradition and he faces a hell of a worse scenario over there as they hate people telling the truth about the government and big business.

 

There's nothing worse than unscrupulous practices. In business we seem to have lost a lot of honour or decency. Is this what you are getting at?

[pedg]

He did it because there is a warrant issued in the US for him. If he gets to Sweden, the US will immediately apply for his extradition and he faces a hell of a worse scenario over there as they hate people telling the truth about the government and big business.

 

If the US have a warrant for him why did they not apply to the UK government? Also as I said above it would be highly unlikely that sweden would extradite him to the US until after he has faced the legal system there. To many it appears he is using many peoples near paranoia about governments and big business to help him get out of what would in the case of anyone else be a legal extradition that would have been sorted ages ago.

[Minty]

If the US have a warrant for him why did they not apply to the UK government?

 

I am sure if there was a way they could do so, they would have done so by now. The only person who knows the truth is Assange, but my gut feeling is that the US want him because of his website as DSM alludes, and this is indeed a conspiracy.

[CB Saint]

I think it is a given that the US would love to get their hands on him, however, I don't beleive that it would be any easier to extradite him from Sweden than from the UK. The UK have a very cosy relationship with the US over extradition, you only have to look at the kid hacker who got sent over. I suspect that the US issue is a red herring and he is more concerned about the Swedish Justice system and what will come to pass there. After all as someone said earlier, what has he got to hide.

[View From The Top]

He did it because there is a warrant issued in the US for him. If he gets to Sweden, the US will immediately apply for his extradition and he faces a hell of a worse scenario over there as they hate people telling the truth about the government and big business.

 

Just imagine what they do to people who defraud folk over pedigree cats.

[jjsaint]

No country should give him asylum so he can escape a trial for sexual assualt.

 

If the US apply for an extradition order then perhaps a claim for asylum on political grounds can be made. I wouldn't think that Sweden are the most natural allies of the US, so I doubt they would extradite anyway.

[pap]

You can't imply guilt from Assange's decision to seek asylum in Ecuador. The only thing you can take from that is Assange doesn't want to face trial in Sweden.

 

Let's not forget - Assange is not an ordinary man. Through Wikileaks, he basically arrayed himself against the big guns of the Western world. I'm not sure you get to do that without some kind of response.

 

Put it this way; if he's genuinely innocent and knows that he is - he knows that he'll be going to a show trial.

[jjsaint]

if he's genuinely innocent and knows that he is - he knows that he'll be going to a show trial.

 

And if he is guilty (it isn't an impossible suggestion - despite implications from the liberal media it isn't just right-wingers who do bad things such as assaulting women) he will know that he can hide behind his persecution complex.

 

Sweden is a fairly liberal place, I'm not sure I'd consider them part of the 'big bad Western world'. It's not like he's being shipped off to the US. Incase of an extradition I would be surprised if this is honoured.

[pap]

And if he is guilty (it isn't an impossible suggestion - despite implications from the liberal media it isn't just right-wingers who do bad things such as assaulting women) he will know that he can hide behind his persecution complex.

 

Sweden is a fairly liberal place, I'm not sure I'd consider them part of the 'big bad Western world'. It's not like he's being shipped off to the US. Incase of an extradition I would be surprised if this is honoured.

 

Which would all be very well, but history is littered with people that have been falsely accused of crimes because of other things they've done.

 

In 2006, Sweden was written up by the UN for allowing extraordinary rendition and torture to take place on its soil. Make no mistake, this is a country that will "play ball" with the US.

[jjsaint]

Which would all be very well, but history is littered with people that have been falsely accused of crimes because of other things they've done.

 

And people who have taken advantage of their politico-celebrity status to assault women.

 

In 2006, Sweden was written up by the UN for allowing extraordinary rendition and torture to take place on its soil. Make no mistake, this is a country that will "play ball" with the US.

 

That I did not know, and to be honest it surprises me. I still think that Assange should stand trial for his alleged misdeeds, and asylum should only be considered if he is then faced with extradition to the US.

[dune]

Just imagine what they do to people who defraud folk over pedigree cats.

 

I'm sure it's all been sorted after all this time and was a misunderstanding.

[hypochondriac]

I'm sure it's all been sorted after all this time and was a misunderstanding.

 

It hasn't and it wasn't.

[pap]

And people who have taken advantage of their politico-celebrity status to assault women.

 

I'm reluctant to get into any debate which trivialises sexual offences, but I do think we need to be clear about the nature of the alleged complaints and Assange's response.

 

1) Unlawful coercion, allegedly holding one of the complainants down with his body weight (complainant 1)

2) Not using a condom when asked to (complainant 1)

3) Deliberately pressing erect penis into complainant (complainant 1)

4) Condom-less sex with complainant 2 while asleep

 

Assange claims that both sexual encounters were consensual.

 

Like I say, I don't want to trivialise this - but half the married men in the world would be guilty of 3). These are not violent sexual assaults, and there is consent for "general sexual congress" from both women. The case rests on aspects within that congress. e.g. "I said you could do that but not that".

 

I wonder how many other people accused of similar crimes have European Arrest Warrants out for them.

 

That I did not know, and to be honest it surprises me. I still think that Assange should stand trial for his alleged misdeeds, and asylum should only be considered if he is then faced with extradition to the US.

 

I sat on a jury for a "rape within relationship" trial. They are notoriously difficult to prove when it's just one persons word against another. This is why it is interesting that Assange has two complainants making similar accusations. The weight of their collective evidence could sink him.

 

It comes down to one of two scenarios:-

 

a) he did it, and the women are telling the truth

b) he didn't do it, and the women are telling lies to discredit him

[pedg]

Interesting read:

 

http://www.fleetstreetfox.com/2012/06/very-naughty-boy.html

[pap]

Interesting read:

 

http://www.fleetstreetfox.com/2012/06/very-naughty-boy.html

 

"And he dances like a tw*t". Serious journalism.

 

At least 70% of that is a hit piece.

 

Still, it's nice to read something that backs up your opinion.

 

He's completely wrong about Assange's safety, by the way. He's making the massive assumption that the US will play by the rules and not just throw a bag over his head and bundle him in a plane.

[pedg]

"And he dances like a tw*t". Serious journalism.

 

At least 70% of that is a hit piece.

 

Still, it's nice to read something that backs up your opinion.

 

He's completely wrong about Assange's safety, by the way. He's making the massive assumption that the US will play by the rules and not just throw a bag over his head and bundle him in a plane.

 

On the subject of assumptions that blogger is a she not a he.

[St Marco]

If he has nothing to hide then why does he seem so desperate to hide?

 

Also if he is the crusader for truth then why has he not leaked stuff abou Russia or China etc? Just seems to be about the US and UK doesn't it?

 

The guy is a total douche but the people who try and make him out to be some kind of hero are far worse.

[pedg]

My opinion is that there are a lot of people out there who are near paranoid about governments and big business and that they are being manipulated by people such as Assange to do their dirty work. These are people who have decided, often a worrying step, that they are somehow above the law and rely on their opinion of what is right or wrong without looking at evidence. If people like 'Anonymous' in real life went into companies and attacked their computers with hammers they would be classed as nutters but somehow the anonymity of the internet makes them think they are hero's. Who voted for these people to decide what is right or wrong, not me.

[Seaford Saint]

My opinion is that there are a lot of people out there who are near paranoid about governments and big business and that they are being manipulated by people such as Assange to do their dirty work. These are people who have decided, often a worrying step, that they are somehow above the law and rely on their opinion of what is right or wrong without looking at evidence. If people like 'Anonymous' in real life went into companies and attacked their computers with hammers they would be classed as nutters but somehow the anonymity of the internet makes them think they are hero's. Who voted for these people to decide what is right or wrong, not me.

 

I think you will find more people like me who are certain that we are lied to - or more accurately, information that's not in the interest of the govt of the day is not made public. Monsanto asking the US government to punish Europe in some way because opinion was so anti GM food comes to mind. Have you noticed how GM crops are now being grown albeit under guard. How did opinion change, who agreed for GM food to be grown. The way politicians go into industry or into government....

 

Assange exposed a lot of that. It seems he must pay....compare how he is treated for example to bankers. Are any of them under house arrest? Criminal charges for bankers?

[pap]

On the subject of assumptions that blogger is a she not a he.

 

I appreciate the correction and I'll suffer a dressing down for my rampant sexism, but I'm not entirely sure that invalidates my point about Assange's potential extraordinary rendition. There are no guarantees that the US will follow due process once he has left Britain.

 

The other thing that people seem to be missing is the fact that he has spent the best part of the last five years poking the biggest dogs in the world. It is not an exaggeration to say that people want him dead. What chance does he stand in a Swedish prison or American concentration camp? Not really surprising that he's made the decision to try to escape to Ecuador if he genuinely fears for his life. I do actually believe that, btw. In custodial terms, he is not facing a long sentence if found guilty.

 

FWIW, I'm reasonably indifferent about Assange. The release of information is a double edged sword. Shines a light onto a lot of things we shouldn't be doing, but a lot of people are endangered in the process.

 

I will be watching this story with interest, though.

[pedg]

I think you will find more people like me who are certain that we are lied to - or more accurately, information that's not in the interest of the govt of the day is not made public. Monsanto asking the US government to punish Europe in some way because opinion was so anti GM food comes to mind. Have you noticed how GM crops are now being grown albeit under guard. How did opinion change, who agreed for GM food to be grown. The way politicians go into industry or into government....

 

Assange exposed a lot of that. It seems he must pay....compare how he is treated for example to bankers. Are any of them under house arrest? Criminal charges for bankers?

 

I could ask the government to punish pompey does not mean they have to do something about it. As to the monsato thing in the days of bush some plans were drawn up based on monsato's request but there is not indication that it went any further.

 

Genetically modified crops are being grown yes but to link that with monsato's request is a large leap. As to being guarded that's because too much environmental protest appears to have been directed at GM crops.

 

I am sure if any banker had been charged with sexual assualt in another country he would be extradited with probably more ease that assange.

[Seaford Saint]

Assange has not been charged with any crime as far as I know. Have I missed anything. Last I heard, the Swedish authorities wanted to speak to him. The suggestion to have an interview via video was rejected by the Swedish police force.

[pedg]

I appreciate the correction and I'll suffer a dressing down for my rampant sexism, but I'm not entirely sure that invalidates my point about Assange's potential extraordinary rendition. There are no guarantees that the US will follow due process once he has left Britain.

 

There is no guarantee that pompey will start acting in a moral manner but its incredibly unlikely. Similarly once assange is extradited to Sweden he is not going to disappear of the radar and its highly unlikely the US would whisk him away just because he is at a higher latitude.

[Seaford Saint]

I could ask the government to punish pompey does not mean they have to do something about it. As to the monsato thing in the days of bush some plans were drawn up based on monsato's request but there is not indication that it went any further.

 

Genetically modified crops are being grown yes but to link that with monsato's request is a large leap. As to being guarded that's because too much environmental protest appears to have been directed at GM crops.

 

I am sure if any banker had been charged with sexual assualt in another country he would be extradited with probably more ease that assange.

 

Are you equating yourself to Monsanto? Anyway the first firm I thought of was Monsanto. The are loads of investigative journalists you could read to broaden your mind. Once you do...it's impossible to go back.....to believing our media's version of some ( not all, obviously).

 

What exactly is going on in Europe with the Euro........are there bank runs in Greece Spain France?

[pap]

My opinion is that there are a lot of people out there who are near paranoid about governments and big business and that they are being manipulated by people such as Assange to do their dirty work. These are people who have decided, often a worrying step, that they are somehow above the law and rely on their opinion of what is right or wrong without looking at evidence. If people like 'Anonymous' in real life went into companies and attacked their computers with hammers they would be classed as nutters but somehow the anonymity of the internet makes them think they are hero's. Who voted for these people to decide what is right or wrong, not me.

 

I'm very paranoid about government and big business, and with good reason. They're always up to something.

 

While you generally have to wait six months to see if a Private Eye article is corrected out of existence, most of it holds up - and its just a never-ending stream of ongoing malfeasance across public and private sectors. They bang out an issue every fortnight practically full of the stuff. You should check it out.

 

I think the real problem is that people are starting to realise what their governments are capable of. Never mind the tinfoil hat stuff for now. Let's focus on stuff that's out in the open. We know that Blair's government created a war out of a cock and bull story that resulted in over a million deaths. We've tortured people, or locked them up without charging them with any crime. What about all this business with Leveson? Senior Conservatives, including the PM, utterly joined at the hip with high level Murdoch executives, and from all appearances, using their power to legislate to promote a corporate interest.

 

I think people have a right to be paranoid about governments and big business. There's plenty of evidence out there to suggest they're up to all sorts of hi-jinks. Doesn't mean you have to fall in line with every contrarian to step into the limelight.

[pedg]

Are you equating yourself to Monsanto? Anyway the first firm I thought of was Monsanto. The are loads of investigative journalists you could read to broaden your mind. Once you do...it's impossible to go back.....to believing our media's version of some ( not all, obviously).

 

What exactly is going on in Europe with the Euro........are there bank runs in Greece Spain France?

 

I was pointing out there is a large gap between asking for a government to do something and them actually doing it. Monsanto asked but all that happened was some options were drawn up but never, as far as I know, enacted.

[pap]

There is no guarantee that pompey will start acting in a moral manner but its incredibly unlikely. Similarly once assange is extradited to Sweden he is not going to disappear of the radar and its highly unlikely the US would whisk him away just because he is at a higher latitude.

 

What are you basing your assessment of "highly unlikely" on?

 

Sweden were complicit in extraordinary rendition and torture at the behest of the Bush administration. If asked, they will co-operate again.

 

That just leaves us with the US. Do you honestly think they'll care about the means as long as the ends are achieved? How many governments would actually condemn them for it?

[pedg]

I think people have a right to be paranoid about governments and big business. There's plenty of evidence out there to suggest they're up to all sorts of hi-jinks. Doesn't mean you have to fall in line with every contrarian to step into the limelight.

 

I am reasonably concerned about it but I think that developing a paranoia about it is counter productive.

[pedg]

What are you basing your assessment of "highly unlikely" on?

 

Sweden were complicit in extraordinary rendition and torture at the behest of the Bush administration. If asked, they will co-operate again.

 

That just leaves us with the US. Do you honestly think they'll care about the means as long as the ends are achieved? How many governments would actually condemn them for it?

 

Sorry but its statement like "They will co-operate again" that get me. How do you know, the answer is you do not. the swedes may have been involved in the rendition of people the general public have never heard of (name me 1 person they were involved in the rendition of that most people will know) but the removal of such a high profile person such as assange without due process is, in my opinion, incredibly unlikely.

Edited 20 June, 2012 by pedg

[St Marco]

Assange has not been charged with any crime as far as I know. Have I missed anything. Last I heard, the Swedish authorities wanted to speak to him. The suggestion to have an interview via video was rejected by the Swedish police force.

 

Exactly. But remove the whole "celebrity" of him and try and put yourself in that situation.

 

Say you went on holiday and while on holiday you get a call from police back in England saying "we have a few allegations against you from two women who say you raped them. We are not going to charge you but would like you to come to the station to have a chat".

 

Would your thoughts be

 

a, ****, what on earth is going on? I didn't do anything so better get back to England and deal with this. Clear my name etc.

 

or

 

b, **** what on earth is going on? I better stay here in this country and not go back to that country with the allegations and as I won't get a fair trial there! That axis of evil country Sweden will lock me up!

 

As I said above if he has nothing to hide then stop hiding. Go back to Sweden, deal with the questions. See what happens. If you get let off you can say you were not dodging anything and did the right thing. If you don't go back your always have this dark cloud over your head where even if you didn't do it people will think you did just because you tried to avoid having to deal with it.

 

Trying to get asylum to a country he has no connection too is pretty extreme.

 

If he goes back to Sweden and they then send him to US on spy charges then boo hoo. As the saying goes if you don't want to do the time then don't do the crime. I wonder if he gave the same amount of thought to the soliders and innocent people that could of been hurt when he sent out documents about the planned military operations?

[pap]

Sorry but its statement like "They will co-operate again" that get me. How do you know, the answer is you do not. the swedes may have been involved in the rendition of people the general public have never heard of (name me 1 person they were involved in the rendition of that most people will know) but the removal of such a high profile person such as assange without due process is, in my opinion, incredibly unlikely.

 

Mohammed El Zari. He's not at Bobby Davro levels of fame, I grant you.

 

http://www.hrw.org/news/2006/11/09/sweden-violated-torture-ban-cia-rendition

 

Amnesty covered this case in detail:-

 

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/EUR42/001/2006/en/99c3ecdc-d3d2-11dd-8743-d305bea2b2c7/eur420012006en.html

 

I know what you're getting at. Assange is too "big" to take down via extraordinary rendition. Perhaps you're right, but I'm not convinced. I'd hoped that the prospect of US extra-judicial action would have died with the Bush administration, but Obama seems just as keen.

 

Any country that allows the extradition of Assange to the US is going to be seen as the one that has sent him to his death. In a perverse sort of way, extraordinary rendition seems a lot cleaner. Sweden would shrug their shoulders, the Yanks would be bold as brass and most governments would breathe a collective sigh of relief.

[Thedelldays]

Let's be honest. He is a bit of an oddball

[pedg]

Mohammed El Zari. He's not at Bobby Davro levels of fame, I grant you.

 

http://www.hrw.org/news/2006/11/09/sweden-violated-torture-ban-cia-rendition

 

Amnesty covered this case in detail:-

 

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/EUR42/001/2006/en/99c3ecdc-d3d2-11dd-8743-d305bea2b2c7/eur420012006en.html

 

I know what you're getting at. Assange is too "big" to take down via extraordinary rendition. Perhaps you're right, but I'm not convinced. I'd hoped that the prospect of US extra-judicial action would have died with the Bush administration, but Obama seems just as keen.

 

Any country that allows the extradition of Assange to the US is going to be seen as the one that has sent him to his death. In a perverse sort of way, extraordinary rendition seems a lot cleaner. Sweden would shrug their shoulders, the Yanks would be bold as brass and most governments would breathe a collective sigh of relief.

 

You have to add into that the practice of the UK in not to extraditing people unless they have assurances that they will not face a death penalty and that any extradition from sweden would have to be approved by the UK as we agreed to the extradition to sweden. So either they bundle him into a van and face international condemnation or they have to negotiate with both sweden and the UK for his extradition the the US with agreement he would not face the death penalty.

[Saintandy666]

Ecuador is an odd place to choose, given his opposition to censored press. May I suggest it's simply because the President gave him a few compliments in an interview recently... just like Chavez did. They only like him though because the Cables were perceived as 'anti-american'. If it were their cables, they'd be just as ****ed off.

Edited 21 June, 2012 by Saintandy666

[Jonnyboy]

If he goes back to Sweden and they then send him to US on spy charges then boo hoo. As the saying goes if you don't want to do the time then don't do the crime. I wonder if he gave the same amount of thought to the soliders and innocent people that could of been hurt when he sent out documents about the planned military operations?

 

And if that is the attitude of the Swedish authorities then he is very sensible to seek asylum somewhere more friendly.

[pap]

Assange's lawyer has done a comment piece in the Guardian about the Swedish justice system.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jul/02/julian-assange-not-fair-trial-sweden

[svetigpung]

First the accusations...The two women only reported him two to three days later after they had met one another at one of his gigs. They went along as his guests to this, afterwards. One of them previously had her own web site "how to get back at men". She closed this shortly after she'd been to the police. Coincidence! He is certainly Not Guilty.

 

Secondly, Sweden would do exactly what the mighty US tells it to do. Believe me. They are politically very week.

 

Conclusion. He is not afraid of the courts , more of the extradition. IMO.

[pedg]

Assange's lawyer has done a comment piece in the Guardian about the Swedish justice system.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jul/02/julian-assange-not-fair-trial-sweden

 

Lawyer complaining that his client, who has lots of supporters and just brazenly broken the rules of this bail, will be locked up for a while in Sweden. Given that under flight risk in dictionaries there is now a picture of assange one would assume they are being sure he does not skip off to the nearest embassy with his sleeping bag.