Our Future? Stadium Expansion Proposal on Season Ticket DVD

[The Kraken]

Thats not how dynamic demand works. You set the base price in advance with the aim of selling all tickets for the maximum revenue. Man U might be £50 and Norwich £20. The price then varies depending on high or low demand. The Norwich ticket price might rise as it gets closer to the game whilst poor demand might cause the Man u ones to fall.

 

Again; we already have different price categories. Man U are Cat A, Norwich cat C. It already exists.

 

For the Cat A games, we've got to be looking at selling all tickets at the original price. If we can't sell 40K tickets against Man U with regular prices, then we simply don't need a 40K stadium.

 

The idea of prices rising against Norwich as the game gets closer is a bit weird IMO; and does very little to encourage the walk-up crowd (i.e. those who make a last minute decision to go to the game).

 

It seems you're trying to recreate the wheel on ticket pricing whilst perhaps ignoring the real question; do we actually need a bigger stadium to satisfy current demand. If you think we need all sorts of innovative pricing schemes just to get customers through the door then it suggests we don't.

[buctootim]

It seems you're..........perhaps ignoring the real question; do we actually need a bigger stadium to satisfy current demand. If you think we need all sorts of innovative pricing schemes just to get customers through the door then it suggests we don't.

 

Im not doing anything apart from responding to your posts. Do we need a larger stadium based on current demand and conventional pricing? - no. Are there ways the club could build a larger stadium and increase attendances over time, ie grow the business? Yes clearly.

Edited 21 June, 2012 by buctootim

[The Kraken]

Im not doing anything apart from responding to your posts. Do we need a larger stadium based on current demand and conventional pricing? - no. Are there ways the club could build a larger stadium and increase attendances over time, ie grow the business? Yes clearly.

 

Well that's all well and good; but I think we've already agreed that perhaps the best policy is to prove the demand first and then build to suit that, as opposed to the other way round.

Which is also (surely) what the club will look to do.

[Frank's cousin]

FC, you've consistently raised the flexible pricing idea, and while its a nice concept I just don't see a viable business case.

 

We first need to recognise that season tickets provide the most reliable and stable form of funding for the season (in terms of total ticket sales). Although SFC don't actively go out of their way to market ST sales, with over 14,000 sales last year it is clearly still the most important form of ticketing. Now, season tickets are based upon the total price paid being less than the price per game on match tickets. Without that benefit, there's little point in buying a season ticket aside from enjoying the same seat and not having to call up the ticket office each week, which significantly reduces the benefits seen.

 

When you say "flexible" ticketing, it really means cheaper. So if you're introducing that, you're reducing further the cost benefit of a season ticket. Take the flexible approach too far and you have the distinct possibility of buying tickets on a match by match basis actually cheaper than a season ticket. Which would be a massive business-case own goal in the long term, as you've just completely devalued the entire range of ticketing.

 

You only have to scour this forum's predecessor and Saintslist in our previous time in the PL to see the effect discounted prices had amongst the ST base. It massively alienated them and provoked the reaction of "what's the point in getting an ST if its just as cheap not to, or even cheaper?" So you also risk eroding the season ticket base, which as I've said is extremely important to the club.

 

Added to that; I do find it very tough to justify the business case of spending many millions on a bigger stadium if you already recognise that you would need to heavily discount prices in order to fill it. You create extra capacity to satisfy demand, not the other way round.

 

EDIT: To add, we already have a flexible ticketing system, in the categorisation of games. Teams such as Man Utd, Arsenal etc are Cat A games, lesser teams ar Cat C games and therefore cheaper. There are already cheaper prices available for children and OAPs. So let's not say that there's no flexibility in our pricing as it currently stands.

 

Fair points but maybe need to ad what I mean by flexible pricing: there are two elements here:

 

1. Greater RANGE of seat prices - which would be reflected in the ST price - we have this to some extent at the moment but as we have seen, the anticipated demand as narrowed the range so kids and OAPs Sts are costing more. With greater capacity you do have the option of widening the range so instead of £450-£600 you have £300-£800 depending on seat position, age, concessions etc - in reposne to Turkish' question as to why this would ever be a business strategy its very simple - the calculation (eg numbers of tickets in each range) is still going to made to guarrantee an increase in total ticket revenue + allowance for increased commercial sales (drinks/food) driven also by a possible revamp of those facilities.

 

2. Offers and reduced rates for less attractive games. - Yes ST should always be cheapest way, but most ST holders have no problem with kids for a £1 games (when with full paying adult) and teh reduced match day price for less attractive games is already factored in to the ST proce calculation.

 

Turkish, your response was anticipated - as usual you try and make teh assumption that flexibilty means cheaper tickets and less revenue so why do that? Sorry but you have not got it - yes SOME seats would be cheaper, but some would also be more expensive and and given the likelihood of an oincreased gate, the model would based on INCREASING total average match revenue. The key point is whether a reasonable model can be established that generates sufficient potential extra revenue to justify the devlopment cost - that is fair enough and I none of us have any idea how such a development would either be financed etc... but you can bet the thresholds have been identified and they will be monitoring it.

[Frank's cousin]

For the Cat A games, we've got to be looking at selling all tickets at the original price. If we can't sell 40K tickets against Man U with regular prices, then we simply don't need a 40K stadium.

 

 

But dont you see this is the crunch? It all depends on what that 'regular price' is and whether it would be sufficient to not only cover the cost of the investment but also generate more income than a sell out at a higher price but limited to 32k - these are the kind of variables etc that need to be considered.

 

Is there a price point at which we would sell out 40k for at least 50% of games?

 

Is that price point apropriate to ensure we cover not only the cost of investment but also INCREASE the match day revenue when everything else is factored in?

 

Ad dto this the creation of a better environment, the image factor of what its says and potential of increased interest and I'll wager that a model could be created that creates a positive bottom line.

[The Kraken]

But dont you see this is the crunch? It all depends on what that 'regular price' is and whether it would be sufficient to not only cover the cost of the investment but also generate more income than a sell out at a higher price but limited to 32k - these are the kind of variables etc that need to be considered.

 

For me, the crunch is whether we could sell 40K tickets for the more popular games at the full price. If we can't do that, then the whole talk of a 40K stadium is redundant and we don't need one that big. That's the first benchmark to try and establish. Then try to establish how many games would sell out.

 

Price schemes etc etc are all well and good; but at the risk of again repeating myself, we should be building a stadium with a capacity to fit the level of demand, and not devaluing the ticket pricing just to put bums on a large number of otherwise empty seats.

[Frank's cousin]

For me, the crunch is whether we could sell 40K tickets for the more popular games at the full price. If we can't do that, then the whole talk of a 40K stadium is redundant and we don't need one that big. That's the first benchmark to try and establish. Then try to establish how many games would sell out.

 

Price schemes etc etc are all well and good; but at the risk of again repeating myself, we should be building a stadium with a capacity to fit the level of demand, and not devaluing the ticket pricing just to put bums on a large number of otherwise empty seats.

 

But surely this is relative - and more to do with perceived value than anything else... or why are so many currently moaning that football tickets are way to expensive?

[The Kraken]

But surely this is relative - and more to do with perceived value than anything else... or why are so many currently moaning that football tickets are way to expensive?

Its relative to whatever the club determine the full price for a match ticket. That's the point at which you'd hope/expect the club could sell to capacity for some games without discounting.

 

We're already going to be discounting Cat B and Cat C games, really. And if our previous time in the PL is anything to go by we probably won't even sell 32K tickets at those discounted prices, let alone 40K. Which is why I'm a little sceptical about even the effectiveness of even further discounting, and more so concerning the whole notion of a much bigger stadium and its actual viability.

[buctootim]

Its relative to whatever the club determine the full price for a match ticket. That's the point at which you'd hope/expect the club could sell to capacity for some games without discounting.

 

We're already going to be discounting Cat B and Cat C games, really. And if our previous time in the PL is anything to go by we probably won't even sell 32K tickets at those discounted prices, let alone 40K. Which is why I'm a little sceptical about even the effectiveness of even further discounting, and more so concerning the whole notion of a much bigger stadium and its actual viability.

 

You seem very fixed on the idea of 'full price tickets' being good and 'discounting' being bad. The point is that there doesnt need to be a 'normal' price. Every game will be different. You charge according to demand.

[Frank's cousin]

Its relative to whatever the club determine the full price for a match ticket. That's the point at which you'd hope/expect the club could sell to capacity for some games without discounting.

 

We're already going to be discounting Cat B and Cat C games, really. And if our previous time in the PL is anything to go by we probably won't even sell 32K tickets at those discounted prices, let alone 40K. Which is why I'm a little sceptical about even the effectiveness of even further discounting, and more so concerning the whole notion of a much bigger stadium and its actual viability.

 

Fair enough, time will tell, but if we end up with a lesser average that in 2003/4/5 what will this be put down to, ticket prices? Economic climate? the success of the team? Thats the point really, so much emphasis has been placed on previous attendences, yet the reality is that the demand will be influenced more by cost and what is affordable in this climate IMHO. In simple terms it comes down to the question that do we belive there would be a differencein our gate - what would our average attendence be (all other thjings being equal) if the average price was £25 vs £35 vs £45?

 

I believe we would sell a shed load more at £30 than at £40 - and I am not sure how that would undermine the brand or value - Most German clubs have a model that alows them to sell a proportion of Sts at £100 etc - yes they could make more money slling at higher price points, but they recognise the value these fans bring in creating the atmosphere and encouraging a broader demographic in the fan base so its not without a workable precedent

[The Kraken]

You seem very fixed on the idea of 'full price tickets' being good and 'discounting' being bad. The point is that there doesnt need to be a 'normal' price. Every game will be different. You charge according to demand.

 

How many more times? There already are different prices. We have three bands of ticket prices for league games, Category A, B and C. Cats B and C are discounted versions of Cat A. Doubtless there will also be discounting for League Cup games (and based upon our pathetic attendances for those in the last couple of years there needs to be).

 

So of course I think additional discounting is bad, when we already have it in place. Especially when we'd be building a new stadium to have extra seats, to then extend the discounting even further just to fill those very seats.

[buctootim]

How many more times? There already are different prices. We have three bands of ticket prices for league games, Category A, B and C. Cats B and C are discounted versions of Cat A.

 

So of course I think additional discounting is bad. Especially when we'd need to build a new stadium to have extra seats to have extended discounting just to fill those very seats.

 

I really dont think you are going to grasp it. Last chance. Not all matches are 'worth' the same and the club cannot accurately predict exactly how much demand each price /match combination will generate - thats why many companies have dynamic demand for perishable products - airline tickets, yogurts, holidays or tickets. Every single match this season coming will generate different levels of interest due to unquantifiable factors. Having three categories doesnt cut the mustard in maximising revenue and ticket sales as empty seats both last season and the last time in the prem demonstrated. It doesnt matter how much you repeat it.

Edited 21 June, 2012 by buctootim

[The Kraken]

In simple terms it comes down to the question that do we belive there would be a differencein our gate - what would our average attendence be (all other thjings being equal) if the average price was £25 vs £35 vs £45?

 

And this is one of the calculations that the club will surely be looking at. From a cost/revenue point of view, is it worth increasing in size or shoud we just stay at 32K and maximise profits by keeping prices at the higher end of the scale.

 

I believe we would sell a shed load more at £30 than at £40 - and I am not sure how that would undermine the brand or value

 

The devaluing comes if you have to sell tickets at around £15 or so just to get people through the door. You can't sell all of the tickets that low. And Cat C games will be heavily discounted from Cat A games as it is.

[The Kraken]

I really dont think you are going to grasp it. Last chance. There is no normal price therefore there is no discounted price. Man U on a Saturday in September at 3pm non televised will be more popular than Man U televised on a November Tuesday evening. Having three categories doesnt cut the mustard in maximising revenue and ticket sales as empty seats both last season and the last time in the prem demonstrated. It doesnt matter how much you repeat it.

 

You can throw insults if you like, but maybe I'm not "grasping" it because I either don't agree with you, or because I don't feel your argument makes business sense?

[Frank's cousin]

How many more times? There already are different prices. We have three bands of ticket prices for league games, Category A, B and C. Cats B and C are discounted versions of Cat A. Doubtless there will also be discounting for League Cup games (and based upon our pathetic attendances for those in the last couple of years there needs to be).

 

So of course I think additional discounting is bad, when we already have it in place. Especially when we'd be building a new stadium to have extra seats, to then extend the discounting even further just to fill those very seats.

 

I appreciate your point, (and frustration) but it depends on what you consider by 'discounting' - The currrent theory is that we have sufficient demand to charge HIGH ticket prices - prices that many fans find difficult to justify and importantly disenfranchises many - and although I am not stuck in the 'football was a working mans game' past there is IMHO justification for saying that ticket prices at the moment are beyond what can reasonably be justified.

 

In addition, we are also talking about a model that provides for an expanded RANGE of prices so you would also see more expensive seats as well as select areas of the group being cheaper and beter concessions for OAPs and kids... seems reasonable to me if as already stated teh model guarrantees INCREASED totals sufficient enough to cover teh investment AND generate more than we currently can?

[Turkish]

Thats not how dynamic demand works. You set the base price in advance with the aim of selling all tickets for the maximum revenue. Man U might be £50 and Norwich £20. The price then varies depending on high or low demand. The Norwich ticket price might rise as it gets closer to the game whilst poor demand might cause the Man u ones to fall.

 

One of the most ridiculous ideas I've ever heard. So we put Man United tickets on sell at £50 then reduce them to £40 if they don't sell do we?! How are the fans that paid £50 going to take that? What is to stop everyone just refusing to buy a ticket early onas they'll know due to our brilliant flexible pricing policy they'll be able to buy it a week before the game for half the price?

Utterly stupid idea.

[The Kraken]

I appreciate your point, (and frustration) but it depends on what you consider by 'discounting' - The currrent theory is that we have sufficient demand to charge HIGH ticket prices - prices that many fans find difficult to justify and importantly disenfranchises many - and although I am not stuck in the 'football was a working mans game' past there is IMHO justification for saying that ticket prices at the moment are beyond what can reasonably be justified.

 

In addition, we are also talking about a model that provides for an expanded RANGE of prices so you would also see more expensive seats as well as select areas of the group being cheaper and beter concessions for OAPs and kids... seems reasonable to me if as already stated teh model guarrantees INCREASED totals sufficient enough to cover teh investment AND generate more than we currently can?

 

I've said before FC; I appreciate the idea of the range of pricing or whatever, and while it's a commendable notion I simply don't see a business case whereby it could work in the environment of football where you simply have to have a "fixed" price in terms of what a season ticket costs. If we didn't sell season tickets and only sold tickets on a match by match basis then I could certainly see value in what you're suggesting. But as I've said, season tickets are THE most important type of ticket that the club will sell, and therefore they provide the benchmark in terms of cost. All other ticket sales have to be above the season ticket mark; which is why we get the sliding scale of Cats A, B and C. I don't really see too much other scope for movement within that.

 

My view of discounting is this: Cat A games are the full price. They are the most attractive games, they'll likely get the highest attendances and the effect of price on these games is not massively significant (within reason). Subsequent to that, Cat B and Cat C games undergo a form of discounting; they are less popular and perhaps more succeptible to price reductions to get people through the gate.

[stev2001]

Well that makes a change.

Some really good points made in the last page or so all without the normal trolling spoilers.

Keep it up

Edited 21 June, 2012 by stev2001

[buctootim]

Then say you dont agree rather than repeating the exisitence of the category system, I know that.

 

This thread was about whether or not you can generate additional demand and fill a larger stadium if the club want to. Its self evident they can, companies use all kinds of strategies to grow their business. I have highlighted one business model that works. We know it works because very large, very successful companies use it. People didnt know they wanted to go to Perpignan until Ryanair sold them £20 tickets. Whether it is desirable for Saints is a moot point. But to keep simply banging the drum that some of the less acute on here do, that you cant fill a larger stadium under any cicumstances is patently untrue.

[stev2001]

Bigger stadium = increased flexibility.

How many people on here started moaning when the new layout was introduced for the coming season. Smaller family area, lesser kids deals etc. While in the championship our 32k stadium gave us the flexibility to do this. Now demand is higher we have obviously lost that ability.

It does remain to be seen however whether we can justify a expansion as this is a hell of a expansive option to gain a bit of flexibilty but hopefully this season will prove that.

[The Kraken]

Then say you dont agree rather than repeating the exisitence of the category system, I know that.

 

This thread was about whether or not you can generate additional demand and fill a larger stadium if the club want to. Its self evident they can, companies use all kinds of strategies to grow their business. I have highlighted one business model that works. We know it works because very large, very successful companies use it. People didnt know they wanted to go to Perpignan until Ryanair sold them £20 tickets. Whether it is desirable for Saints is a moot point. But to keep simply banging the drum that some of the less acute on here do, that you cant fill a larger stadium under any cicumstances is patently untrue.

 

Your last line doesn't seem to bear any resemblance to anything I've posted. I've never said we can't fill a larger stadium under any circumstance; I've not even inferred it, probably because I don't believe it. So I'll thank not to put words in my mouth which contradict things I've even said in this thread.

 

And IMO this thread is about the potential for a larger stadium in the future; not whether we should build one and then see if we can generate extra demand to fill it. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think we will get a bigger stadium if the numbers show that we have the demand to consistently fill one. I don't think we'll build one just to resort to a whole new wave of discounting techniques.

[buctootim]

Your last line doesn't seem to bear any resemblance to anything I've posted. I've never said we can't fill a larger stadium under any circumstance; I've not even inferred it, probably because I don't believe it. So I'll thank not to put words in my mouth which contradict things I've even said in this thread.

 

That remark was about one or two posters on the thread who are able to sneer but lack imagination. It wasnt aimed at you and I certainly wouldn't describe you as 'less acute'.

[stev2001]

IMO the perfect season would be to sell just short of a sell out in every match as this would mean that the pricing has been spot on. Low enough to attract but high enough to generate revenue. Everytime we sell out we lose potential income. I'm not a great fan of just keep increasing prices to lower demand either as potentially you are alienating your poorer and maybe some of your most passionate fans. Like I said before a larger stadium gives us that flexibilty and hopefully the coming season will prove we have a need.

Alot of sell outs at high prices will prove this!

[The Kraken]

IMO the perfect season would be to sell just short of a sell out in every match as this would mean that the pricing has been spot on. Low enough to attract but high enough to generate revenue. Everytime we sell out we lose potential income. I'm not a great fan of just keep increasing prices to lower demand either as potentially you are alienating your poorer and maybe some of your most passionate fans. Like I said before a larger stadium gives us that flexibilty and hopefully the coming season will prove we have a need.

Alot of sell outs at high prices will prove this!

 

Personally I think this is the only way we'll see a bigger stadium. Not exactly rocket science, of course...

 

I wouldn't be surprised if in time, for games against the bigger sides, we see some form of ballot system for matchday tickets. Of course there will also be the twinning of games, but in the Premier League there aren't too many games that are unattractive so that will only have a limited effect. Also, it would seem we have no membership scheme (which I'm actually quite surprised about, it's fair and a decent money spinner).

 

The ballot system would give the club a very good idea on the number of match tickets we could potentially sell above our capacity. And so would be a great indicator of what a maximum stadium capacity could/should be.

[saint si]

All this is moot anyway, as the club is required to publish its ticket prices in advance and not discriminate between home and away fans, which would be inevitable if the pricing was dynamic.

 

http://www.premierleague.com/content/dam/premierleague/site-content/News/publications/handbooks/premier-league-handbook-2011-12.pdf

 

A Home Club shall not charge admission prices to supporters of a Visiting Club which are

higher than those charged to its own supporters for comparable accommodation and in

particular concessionary rates offered to senior citizens and junior supporters shall apply to

supporters of a Visiting Club.

10. Each Club shall submit to the League details of its season ticket prices and ticket prices for

individual League Matches upon announcing the same publicly

[Frank's cousin]

I've said before FC; I appreciate the idea of the range of pricing or whatever, and while it's a commendable notion I simply don't see a business case whereby it could work in the environment of football where you simply have to have a "fixed" price in terms of what a season ticket costs. If we didn't sell season tickets and only sold tickets on a match by match basis then I could certainly see value in what you're suggesting. But as I've said, season tickets are THE most important type of ticket that the club will sell, and therefore they provide the benchmark in terms of cost. All other ticket sales have to be above the season ticket mark; which is why we get the sliding scale of Cats A, B and C. I don't really see too much other scope for movement within that.

 

My view of discounting is this: Cat A games are the full price. They are the most attractive games, they'll likely get the highest attendances and the effect of price on these games is not massively significant (within reason). Subsequent to that, Cat B and Cat C games undergo a form of discounting; they are less popular and perhaps more succeptible to price reductions to get people through the gate.

 

I appreciate what you are saying and agree with respect to match day prices, but I guess my main thrust is in respect to ST pricing bands, which as you say already take into account the cheaper prices for cat B and C games. However, what we could do with is greater diversity and range of ST prices based on the area or the ground chosen to sit in (see above re the German model). It would mean we would be able to generate a greater income than our current pricing allows, yet offer cheaper STs to kids. OAPs and other concessions, as a result of a) more ST sales and B) sale sof premium STs - This is what I believe would justify expansion. (If the figures stack up) as we would be a club that not only offers premium posh seats at £45 average or more but also great value STs in certain sections that would make us more inclusive across the local demographic.

 

I guess its the basis for why I do favour the idea of development early rather than a full wait and see, because the club in effect would be seen as looking to become more inclusive as well as generate more revenue (this is all subject to the financials by the way and I have no idea as to whether such a model woyuld be workable - I susupect it could be but depends on how much teh financing would cost/interest etc)

 

As others have said, I think NC has thrown the batton down and its now up to fans to demonstarte demand - but my caveat on this has already been made above. I believe our demand will be limited next season not by desire but by affordability and thus we wont get a true picture of our potential in terms of numbers only in terms of numbers who can afford the current pricing levels (which many consider too high)

Edited 21 June, 2012 by Frank's cousin

[The Kraken]

As others have said' date=' I think NC has thrown the batton down and its now up to fans to demonstarte demand - but my caveat on this has already been made above. I believe our demand will be limited next season not by desire but by affordability and thus we wont get a true picture of our potential in terms of numbers only in terms of numbers who can afford the current pricing levels (which many consider too high)[/quote']

This I agree with. I think the whole "Our future?" was both a PR exercise but also a statement to the fans of "Right, show us how much demand there is. If you come, we'll build it".

 

And I guess that's where we differ; you seem to state you favour a "Build it and they will come" approach. I just see it the other way round.

[Frank's cousin]

This I agree with. I think the whole "Our future?" was both a PR exercise but also a statement to the fans of "Right, show us how much demand there is. If you come, we'll build it".

 

And I guess that's where we differ; you seem to state you favour a "Build it and they will come" approach. I just see it the other way round.

 

Perhaps... but maybe not quite as simple as that, more that if we wait for demand to be demonstrated at the current pricing level in the current economic climate, we may be waiting a very long time. My premise (and remember my ideas are as conceptual as those drawings) is that if we had a source of funding that was manageable and preferential, we might be able to stimulate demand through the idea of a broader pricing of STs. Risky I know and certainly not advocated if te only potential funding source was commercial rate loans... but say ML left provision as a preferred or interest free rate?

[The Kraken]

Perhaps... but maybe not quite as simple as that' date=' more that if we wait for demand to be demonstrated at the current pricing level in the current economic climate, we may be waiting a very long time[/b']. My premise (and remember my ideas are as conceptual as those drawings) is that if we had a source of funding that was manageable and preferential, we might be able to stimulate demand through the idea of a broader pricing of STs. Risky I know and certainly not advocated if te only potential funding source was commercial rate loans... but say ML left provision as a preferred or interest free rate?

 

And my response would naturally be "well if we can't prove it yet, lets not do it yet"!!

[Frank's cousin]

And my response would naturally be "well if we can't prove it yet, lets not do it yet"!!

 

fair enough. I dont think there is a right or wrong in this, just different attitudes and opinions - I am actually surprized in myself as am usually more cautious and perhaps too risk averse to ever make it as an entrepeneur! Football is a crazy business where a player can cost more than a stadium or his wages pay for it in 5 years... so in some respects there might as well be scope for more 'challenging' business decisions. Ultimately it all comes down to money - I suspect those conceptuals and assumeing an 8k increase would be in the region of 30-40mil... at commercial rates over 25 years probably going to cost around 2 mil a year to service that's equivilent to 3703 extras tickets per match (18) at £30 to cover the cost so would argue its doable. Naturally you want more than that to generate MORE income, but it shows its not ridiculously stupid...

[Frank's cousin]

...would add as well ego plays a part. Like many fans the idea of having some shiney new characterful stadium appeals to the ego.I guess its a more concrete example (pun intended) of aspiration and intent - whilst spending 30 mil on players and wages does the same thing, that is only ever money straight out the club and the way madness lies as witnessed down the road. Infrastructure has longer term benefits as we have shown in the past

[IFHP]

Personally I think this is the only way we'll see a bigger stadium. Not exactly rocket science, of course...

 

I wouldn't be surprised if in time, for games against the bigger sides, we see some form of ballot system for matchday tickets. Of course there will also be the twinning of games, but in the Premier League there aren't too many games that are unattractive so that will only have a limited effect. Also, it would seem we have no membership scheme (which I'm actually quite surprised about, it's fair and a decent money spinner).

 

The ballot system would give the club a very good idea on the number of match tickets we could potentially sell above our capacity. And so would be a great indicator of what a maximum stadium capacity could/should be.

 

Agree about the balloot system. When the club have about 5,000 matchday tickets to sell and 10,000 apply for the majority of league games then the we should consider expanding the stadium.

 

We are a long long way of that level of support now.

[Micky]

Apologies, you got a bit of a backlash for the excesses of certain other posters. It was more like "oh, please, don't _you_ start".:-)

 

Thanks - but no apology is necessary. I understand that people get wound up on here but to be honest it really is not worth it. I rarely get too involved these days, if I'm feeling spritely I might have a dig at the forum gang now and again - but generally I sit quietly in the corner watching the action. I'm too old to offer these young lads outside these days, probably going a little senile as well in my old age. But if I knew where Dune lived - I'd go round and put his windows in or something.

[Turkish]

Perhaps... but maybe not quite as simple as that' date=' more that if we wait for demand to be demonstrated at the current pricing level in the current economic climate, we may be waiting a very long time. My premise (and remember my ideas are as conceptual as those drawings) is that if we had a source of funding that was manageable and preferential, we might be able to stimulate demand through the idea of a broader pricing of STs. Risky I know and certainly not advocated if te only potential funding source was commercial rate loans... but say ML left provision as a preferred or interest free rate?[/quote']

 

So instead of wait to see if the demand is there we gamble and hope that it is? And if it isn't, well never mind hey, we can just slash the prices and make it cheaper for some people, but not everyone, with this ingenious flexible pricing model which is somehow going to encourage loads of people to come along by offering deals yet at the same time also making it more expensive for some so we can ensure we generate more revenue than we are at the moment from the seats we cant sell and have no demand for. Whilst we're at it we can spunk £20m against the wall so we can say we've got a bigger stadium that we dont need.

 

Just one more question. If "flexible pricing" is going to be the way forward and such a great idea, why isn't Cortese doing it already? There were at time 11,000 empty seats last season and on average 6,000. Yet not once was there talk of flexible pricing, doing deals and special offers, using Groupon deals (like West Ham did) slashing prices to fill the empty seats. If Cortese hasn't done it in the 3 years until now, what makes you think he's going to do it when he's spent £20m building additional seats just in case we might need them one day?

[up and away]

This I agree with. I think the whole "Our future?" was both a PR exercise but also a statement to the fans of "Right, show us how much demand there is. If you come, we'll build it".

 

And I guess that's where we differ; you seem to state you favour a "Build it and they will come" approach. I just see it the other way round.

 

Cortese has always said that they will establish the club in the Premier then do all the marketing to see if a bigger stadium is justified. It's never been a leap without looking.

 

The other point that has been demonstrated under Cortese is that we will not be going the discounted ticket route, that has stopped, It's impossible to go cheap as time extends, it's a no brainer. I do know they are going really big after the corporate side, where they feel the greatest increase of revenue can come from. From what I have seen and experienced of the Liebherr suite they have a good chance alongside a good product. The facilities are getting better and better with very few **** off factors and all they need is the product on the pitch and the match experience to get this to work. The greater the matchday experience becomes, the greater the acceptance of higher prices for corporate with a trickle effect all the way down to the bottom.

 

Cortese strongly believes he can get the increased stadium capacity to work, something I have been doubtful about. He's got things so right up until now that I am not going to argue the toss. I feel all it would take in the near future would be a couple of good seasons similar to having with WSG and the momentum looks unstoppable. Everyone gets drawn in by success and those couple of WSG years would really give the momentum to all.

[Turkish]

Cortese has always said that they will establish the club in the Premier then do all the marketing to see if a bigger stadium is justified. It's never been a leap without looking.

 

The other point that has been demonstrated under Cortese is that we will not be going the discounted ticket route, that has stopped, It's impossible to go cheap as time extends, it's a no brainer. I do know they are going really big after the corporate side, where they feel the greatest increase of revenue can come from. From what I have seen and experienced of the Liebherr suite they have a good chance alongside a good product. The facilities are getting better and better with very few **** off factors and all they need is the product on the pitch and the match experience to get this to work. The greater the matchday experience becomes, the greater the acceptance of higher prices for corporate with a trickle effect all the way down to the bottom.

 

Cortese strongly believes he can get the increased stadium capacity to work, something I have been doubtful about. He's got things so right up until now that I am not going to argue the toss. I feel all it would take in the near future would be a couple of good seasons similar to having with WSG and the momentum looks unstoppable. Everyone gets drawn in by success and those couple of WSG years would really give the momentum to all.

 

Exactly what it should be and exactly what us Dell sized mentality posters have been saying all along as well. I wonder what the self titled intelligent posters will have to say about this? No doubt as Cortese agrees with us it'll be that he too has a Dell sized mentality, negative, lacking ambition etc etc. This has to be the case.

[The Kraken]

Cortese has always said that they will establish the club in the Premier then do all the marketing to see if a bigger stadium is justified. It's never been a leap without looking.

 

The other point that has been demonstrated under Cortese is that we will not be going the discounted ticket route, that has stopped, It's impossible to go cheap as time extends, it's a no brainer. I do know they are going really big after the corporate side, where they feel the greatest increase of revenue can come from. From what I have seen and experienced of the Liebherr suite they have a good chance alongside a good product. The facilities are getting better and better with very few **** off factors and all they need is the product on the pitch and the match experience to get this to work. The greater the matchday experience becomes, the greater the acceptance of higher prices for corporate with a trickle effect all the way down to the bottom.

 

Cortese strongly believes he can get the increased stadium capacity to work, something I have been doubtful about. He's got things so right up until now that I am not going to argue the toss. I feel all it would take in the near future would be a couple of good seasons similar to having with WSG and the momentum looks unstoppable. Everyone gets drawn in by success and those couple of WSG years would really give the momentum to all.

 

I don't disagree with the notion of what you're saying; but I don't think increasing our crowds significantly is going to be as easy as some people think.

 

Consider: at St. Mary's we finished as high as 8th in the PL, plus 11th and 12th prior to the relegation season. So we quickly established ourselves as a mid-upper level Premier League team before our sudden capitulation. And yet in our time in the top league, with those decent finishes, we still had quite a significant number of games which didn't sell out. At our peak 23,000 season ticket holders + away fans (probably an average of 2,000 per game?) and there were still a fair few games where we couldn't shift all the home tickets.

 

I admire the optimism from Cortese, and its a great goal to have. But I think proving the need is going to be very difficult, and as much as I'd like it to happen the realist in me still suggests that while its eminently possible I still consider it more unlikely than not it will actually happen.

[JustMike]

Cortese has always said that they will establish the club in the Premier then do all the marketing to see if a bigger stadium is justified. It's never been a leap without looking.

 

The other point that has been demonstrated under Cortese is that we will not be going the discounted ticket route, that has stopped, It's impossible to go cheap as time extends, it's a no brainer. I do know they are going really big after the corporate side, where they feel the greatest increase of revenue can come from. From what I have seen and experienced of the Liebherr suite they have a good chance alongside a good product. The facilities are getting better and better with very few **** off factors and all they need is the product on the pitch and the match experience to get this to work. The greater the matchday experience becomes, the greater the acceptance of higher prices for corporate with a trickle effect all the way down to the bottom.

 

Cortese strongly believes he can get the increased stadium capacity to work, something I have been doubtful about. He's got things so right up until now that I am not going to argue the toss. I feel all it would take in the near future would be a couple of good seasons similar to having with WSG and the momentum looks unstoppable. Everyone gets drawn in by success and those couple of WSG years would really give the momentum to all.

 

Great post!

 

If you think about it, the catchment area we have is massive when you consider the blue few and bompey being where they are. IF we establish ourselves in the prem and have an element of success, there is no reason why kids growing up either end of the M27 wouldn't start supporting Saints. Success brings in fans (albeit "plastic") just look at Man City and Chelsea before them.

[buctootim]

Interesting articles about San Francisco Giants baseball team using dynamic demand pricing for seats. As things stand currently I doubt it could be made to work in the UK because Sky move the schedule around too much and PL rules on pricing. Interesting idea though. In theory it would allow everyone the chance to see Saints during the season - both those who cant afford high prices and those that can. Forbes report fans have not expressed the resistance expected.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/prishe/2012/01/06/dynamic-pricing-the-future-of-ticket-pricing-in-sports/

“the Giants organization was initially concerned that fans might not understand the concept. They are familiar with this type of pricing in the airline and hotel industry, but this was a big leap for a sports team to implement the idea into the box office. As it turned out, our concerns were unfounded. Sports ticketing has such a vibrant secondary market that I think fans had a better understanding of market value pricing then we realized.” These sentiments were echoed by Mr. Strohm from the Cardinals. “The biggest challenge was communicating the new pricing structure to our fans and overcoming the concern of season ticket holders that we would be undercutting their price. We have guaranteed season holders that we will never sell individual tickets below the game value of their ticket.”

 

http://www.clarkhoward.com/news/clark-howard/family-lifestyle/ticket-prices-sports-concerts-vary-based-variety-c/nGGR3/

One of my TV producers Jason wanted to go to NBA game featuring the Miami Heat -- one of the hottest tickets in the NBA -- and the team's website was offering $600 seats for nowhere near close to courtside. This is the new reality. You'll see more and more of this kind of thing with baseball and basketball teams, both sports that play very long schedules. On the flipside, if a bum team comes to town that means dirt cheap tickets. Pricing will be impacted by the day of the week, the opponent, what time in the season it is and other factors. The price is no longer the price. If you're seeing tickets that are too much, try waiting it out. If the event doesn't sell well, prices will go down, not up. Under this new model, baseball games can end up being as cheap as $3 a seat or as much as a couple hundred depending on the opponent and where you're sitting.

Edited 21 June, 2012 by buctootim

[Turkish]

Great post!

 

If you think about it, the catchment area we have is massive when you consider the blue few and bompey being where they are. IF we establish ourselves in the prem and have an element of success, there is no reason why kids growing up either end of the M27 wouldn't start supporting Saints. Success brings in fans (albeit "plastic") just look at Man City and Chelsea before them.

 

Does this mean that a lot of kids between 2005-09 living in Southampton are now all Pompey fans because they had success in the late 00's whilst we were sh*t?

[aintforever]

Cortese has always said that they will establish the club in the Premier then do all the marketing to see if a bigger stadium is justified. It's never been a leap without looking.

 

The other point that has been demonstrated under Cortese is that we will not be going the discounted ticket route, that has stopped, It's impossible to go cheap as time extends, it's a no brainer. I do know they are going really big after the corporate side, where they feel the greatest increase of revenue can come from. From what I have seen and experienced of the Liebherr suite they have a good chance alongside a good product. The facilities are getting better and better with very few **** off factors and all they need is the product on the pitch and the match experience to get this to work. The greater the matchday experience becomes, the greater the acceptance of higher prices for corporate with a trickle effect all the way down to the bottom.

 

Cortese strongly believes he can get the increased stadium capacity to work, something I have been doubtful about. He's got things so right up until now that I am not going to argue the toss. I feel all it would take in the near future would be a couple of good seasons similar to having with WSG and the momentum looks unstoppable. Everyone gets drawn in by success and those couple of WSG years would really give the momentum to all.

 

Totally agree. Except I don't think what we achieved under Strachan was that great. We got an easy route to a cup final and got d!cked, got into Europe through the back door and lasted one game. We had some decent players but there was no real investment (even when we are playing well players like Ormerod do not really put bums on seats).

 

There is scope to achieve more now.

[Turkish]

Totally agree. Except I don't think what we achieved under Strachan was that great. We got an easy route to a cup final and got d!cked, got into Europe through the back door and lasted one game. We had some decent players but there was no real investment (even when we are playing well players like Ormerod do not really put bums on seats).

 

There is scope to achieve more now.

 

Maybe it wasn't that great, but it was still our first FA Cup final in 27 years and our highest league position since 1990. Dont forget we also signed Kevin Phillips who was at the time, labelled our biggest signing since Shilton on the old S4E forum. I certainly remember lots of excitable "who's got a ticket for xxxx game?" type posts on here at the time. There certainly was a lot of interest but we weren't turning thousands away every week and just off the top of my head i remember us beating Fulham at home that season 4-2 and there only being 25,000 there.

[Thedelldays]

Maybe it wasn't that great, but it was still our first FA Cup final in 27 years and our highest league position since 1990. Dont forget we also signed Kevin Phillips who was at the time, labelled our biggest signing since Shilton on the old S4E forum. I certainly remember lots of excitable "who's got a ticket for xxxx game?" type posts on here at the time. There certainly was a lot of interest but we weren't turning thousands away every week and just off the top of my head i remember us beating Fulham at home that season 4-2 and there only being 25,000 there.

I thought it was a cracking achievement

turned BT into the best English striker in the country for 2 seasons

a team with Ohmygod

jo Tessem

Paul Telfer

 

 

pretty impressive to get that much from THAT team if you ask me....brilliant achievement

adkins would do very well to follow suit

[monosaint]

I don't disagree with the notion of what you're saying; but I don't think increasing our crowds significantly is going to be as easy as some people think.

 

Consider: at St. Mary's we finished as high as 8th in the PL, plus 11th and 12th prior to the relegation season. So we quickly established ourselves as a mid-upper level Premier League team before our sudden capitulation. And yet in our time in the top league, with those decent finishes, we still had quite a significant number of games which didn't sell out. At our peak 23,000 season ticket holders + away fans (probably an average of 2,000 per game?) and there were still a fair few games where we couldn't shift all the home tickets.

 

I admire the optimism from Cortese, and its a great goal to have. But I think proving the need is going to be very difficult, and as much as I'd like it to happen the realist in me still suggests that while its eminently possible I still consider it more unlikely than not it will actually happen.

 

Absolute c..p. If you take a look at the 2003/2004 average for Saints in the Prem it was 31,351. Pretty close to capacity and that's an average don't forget. How much demand was there that we could not fulfill we will not know but my guess would be that NC has a lot of this data. He's no fool.

[The Kraken]

I thought it was a cracking achievement

turned BT into the best English striker in the country for 2 seasons

a team with Ohmygod

jo Tessem

Paul Telfer

 

 

pretty impressive to get that much from THAT team if you ask me....brilliant achievement

adkins would do very well to follow suit

 

Yep. On moving to St Mary's we finished 12th, 8th and 11th in the first three seasons. If NA achieves that in his first 3 season I suspect he'll get a bit more praise than "I don't think it was that great".

[The Kraken]

Absolute c..p. If you take a look at the 2003/2004 average for Saints in the Prem it was 31,351. Pretty close to capacity and that's an average don't forget. How much demand was there that we could not fulfill we will not know but my guess would be that NC has a lot of this data. He's no fool.

 

Not absolute c..p at all.

 

2001/02: We had 8 games under 31K, 5 under 30K.

2002/03: We had 6 games under 31K, 4 under 30k.

2003/04: Our most successful season, 1 game under 31K.

2004/05: We had 8 games under 31K, 5 under 30K.

 

Considering the away end divider moved in comparison with how many fans the away team brought, those lower figures can be significantly explained by the home end consistently not selling out.

[aintforever]

Maybe it wasn't that great, but it was still our first FA Cup final in 27 years and our highest league position since 1990. Dont forget we also signed Kevin Phillips who was at the time, labelled our biggest signing since Shilton on the old S4E forum. I certainly remember lots of excitable "who's got a ticket for xxxx game?" type posts on here at the time. There certainly was a lot of interest but we weren't turning thousands away every week and just off the top of my head i remember us beating Fulham at home that season 4-2 and there only being 25,000 there.

 

It was good, but could be improved upon with a bit of investment.

[Turkish]

I thought it was a cracking achievement

turned BT into the best English striker in the country for 2 seasons

a team with Ohmygod

jo Tessem

Paul Telfer

 

 

pretty impressive to get that much from THAT team if you ask me....brilliant achievement

adkins would do very well to follow suit

 

It was a great achievement, we didnt play great football but we had some great results and it was a terrific couple of seasons. We were solid at the back, hard working, fit and Beattie was on fire. Beating Liverpool at Anfield when they were half decent, beating Arsenal at home, a team which was one of the best sides of the last 20 odd years. And it was our highest league finish in 22 years, yet still we didn't sell out every game.

[Turkish]

It was good, but could be improved upon with a bit of investment.

 

Aston Villa spent over £100m between 2008-11 and never finished higher than 6th or got to the FA Cup final. How much more improvement are you expecting?

[Thedelldays]

It was a great achievement, we didnt play great football but we had some great results and it was a terrific couple of seasons. We were solid at the back, hard working, fit and Beattie was on fire. Beating Liverpool at Anfield when they were half decent, beating Arsenal at home, a team which was one of the best sides of the last 20 odd years. And it was our highest league finish in 22 years, yet still we didn't sell out every game.

and people say it was not that great....

madness

 

WGS was absolutely brilliant for saints..