Our Future? Stadium Expansion Proposal on Season Ticket DVD

[The Kraken]

It's amusing though.

 

It's like arguing Shipman wasn't a serial killer, just a really sh.it doctor. You may convince yourself but everyone will know you're simply a loony pr.ick.

 

I wonder if he's ever put a bet on in a bookies? He'd probably try and have a debate with the kiosk staff. "Well, you say I need to enter whether it will be a win, lose or a draw. But I contend that it isn't as simple as that; there are many more issues to consider than league position, current form, and game location. Plus a whole host of other factors that we my or may not know about. With that in mind it is utterly impossible for me to fill in this form."

[teamsaint]

This. Go on any neutral footballing forum and ask which is the bigger club and you'll get a resounding answer. The sheer desperation to not admit that by using utterly irrelavant comparisons and speculation is a bit pathetic.

 

bit late on this thread.....so there are people who think Saints are a bigger club than Villa or Everton ?

Blimey.

Funny.

[The Kraken]

bit late on this thread.....so there are people who think Saints are a bigger club than Villa or Everton ?

Blimey.

Funny.

 

Not quite. There is one lone lunatic who refutes that Saints are a smaller club than those two; or at least he claims its too close to call.

[hypochondriac]

Not quite. There is one lone lunatic who refutes that Saints are a smaller club than those two; or at least he claims its too close to call.

 

I don't think I have ever encountered such a weird person before either online or offline. I wonder if he is like that in real life?

[MarkSFC]

I think these pictures look great. If this actually happens it would seem that the "red building and attaching structure will provide the additional significant income streams that are needed to move towards "self-sustainability".

 

I imagine the extensions will provide major conferencing facilities, suitable "year-round" outlets like a museum, restaurant and bar(s), mega-store, and other facilities that I cant even predict!

 

It would seem that this is the best option all round - to expand rather than build again elsewhere or even on site - and as such will have to be "future-proof". This means that it will need to be big enough to achieve the ultimate goals of the owners and without creating a white elephant or at least a ground that is too big and underused.

 

I believe around 42-46k with corporate would be sensible. If the expansion of the seating is done well it will done in such a way that minimises the "obviousness" of smaller attendances (say 30-34k) which will be inevitable on occasions - some league and FA Cup matches perhaps.

 

With the Staplewood development already progressing nicely there is far more probability that "an expansion" WILL take place over the coming years, and if it's going to happen it's very likely to start sooner rather than later as the sooner we have more income streams the less "financial support" the owners need to provide.

 

I'm sure it wont be the case but Cortese must not "do a Lowe" and forget that at the end of the day the most important thing to the paying customer is the quality of the team on show.....

[Barry the Badger]

I think these pictures look great. If this actually happens it would seem that the "red building and attaching structure will provide the additional significant income streams that are needed to move towards "self-sustainability". ...

 

My guess is that the red building isn't anything. They just thought "lets put a massive red building in these fictional plans, that will look impressive"

[Saint-Armstrong]

Had a quick check, not seen it posted elsewhere. The DVD:

 

[Matthew Le God]

Had a quick check, not seen it posted elsewhere. The DVD:

 

Beat you to it by a minute. Deserves its own thread really.

 

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?38603-Season-ticket-video

Edited 20 June, 2012 by Matthew Le God

[Bearsy]

bit late on this thread.....so there are people who think Saints are a bigger club than Villa or Everton ?

Blimey.

Funny.

 

Yeah dat's balls obviously but i don't think it's impossible we might be more successful over the next 10 years which i spose is where MLG is coming from really. I mean probably that's where he's coming from, I ain't read what he's actually said cos there's like 8 pages of it.

[Lymsaint]

I think these pictures look great. If this actually happens it would seem that the "red building and attaching structure will provide the additional significant income streams that are needed to move towards "self-sustainability".

 

I imagine the extensions will provide major conferencing facilities, suitable "year-round" outlets like a museum, restaurant and bar(s), mega-store, and other facilities that I cant even predict!

 

It would seem that this is the best option all round - to expand rather than build again elsewhere or even on site - and as such will have to be "future-proof". This means that it will need to be big enough to achieve the ultimate goals of the owners and without creating a white elephant or at least a ground that is too big and underused.

 

I believe around 42-46k with corporate would be sensible. If the expansion of the seating is done well it will done in such a way that minimises the "obviousness" of smaller attendances (say 30-34k) which will be inevitable on occasions - some league and FA Cup matches perhaps.

 

With the Staplewood development already progressing nicely there is far more probability that "an expansion" WILL take place over the coming years, and if it's going to happen it's very likely to start sooner rather than later as the sooner we have more income streams the less "financial support" the owners need to provide.

 

I'm sure it wont be the case but Cortese must not "do a Lowe" and forget that at the end of the day the most important thing to the paying customer is the quality of the team on show.....

 

Good post, will not get anywhere on here with the website warriors slating MLG and spoiling a good thread.

[Frank's cousin]

Yeah dat's balls obviously but i don't think it's impossible we might be more successful over the next 10 years which i spose is where MLG is coming from really. I mean probably that's where he's coming from, I ain't read what he's actually said cos there's like 8 pages of it.

 

Just when I loose the will to live, and despair at the playground 'bullies' s******ing in their dmap bedsits, along comes Bearsy to restore faith in the forum

 

Long live the Bear!

[hypochondriac]

Good post, will not get anywhere on here with the website warriors slating MLG and spoiling a good thread.

 

Blaming the symptom and not the cause?

[B Rabbit]

I think it's prudent to add here that these images are simply a 'feasibility study'. I do them all year round on many levels. I remember doing the original concept (or at least part of the team back then) for the Rosebowl extension... It wasn't that much more detail than this but ended up looking bugger all like it ended up... It looks MUCH worse than the original intentions. I think that was probably around 2004.

 

I digress...

 

Theres very little context in the images, it is IMPOSSIBLE to tell from the information given how many extra seats we are talking about.

It is clear that the 3D model isn't 100% accurate (as it wouldn't be... It's just a concept!) from the position of exits in Kingsland. It looks like a small extension to the ends and a larger one to the Kingsland and that's all we can say from the aaerial image...anything else is pure guess work. On that basis... Let's stop making guesses at numbers and pointing out things... It's a flashy sketch, nothing more at this stage.

Chances are that the model was based off of sketch plan with an approximate number of seats... But only about 5 people ... The architects and SFC ... Will know what that is...but it is a starting point which will hopefully lead somewhere.

 

The red box, as stated elsewhere... Is probably offices, shop, additional facilities and that seems to be attached to a podium level around the arse end.... What's under the podium is anyone's guess.... Could be as dull as parking or could be a conference centre... Anything!

 

Personally I think it's a pretty good design and it looks like we have a group of exciting designers on board.

 

PS... Everton and Villa are much bigger than Saints... Always have been as will take a huge shift in footballing power to change that... In the same way that Leeds, Forest, Sheffield Wednesday are still bigger clubs than us

 

 

Edited 20 June, 2012 by B Rabbit

[Wade Garrett]

I think we'll struggle to fill a 40,000 stadium on a regular basis.

[S-Clarke]

I think we'll struggle to fill a 40,000 stadium on a regular basis.

 

At the end of the day it depends, if we're bobbing around in the bottom half of the PL, then yeah, I'd have to agree with that. But if in the future we were up there challenging for European places then I think we'd have a fair demand, because at the end of the day clubs do have a lot of fair weather fans if we're honest.

[stev2001]

Is anyone else of the opinion that it is good to have a stadium that you don't fill every week?

 

If we are filling a stadium every week then we are losing out on alot of revenue for the big games that would attract a much larger crowd.

IMO we need a stadium that for more than half the games of the season we max out on.

No one likes seeing empty seats but no one likes missing out on a game that is a sell out either.

[Matthew Le God]

I think we'll struggle to fill a 40,000 stadium on a regular basis.

 

At the end of the day it depends, if we're bobbing around in the bottom half of the PL, then yeah, I'd have to agree with that. But if in the future we were up there challenging for European places then I think we'd have a fair demand, because at the end of the day clubs do have a lot of fair weather fans if we're honest.

 

I agree S-Clarke.

[Micky]

I think the new stadium looks great. I think the red box is probably a red box. I think that we will sell out a 50k'er every game next season. I think that if it's not completed by the start of the new season I will be sending a very strongly worded email to Nicola voicing my very serious disapproval at our lack of intent.

[Rebel]

I wouldn't agree with you on Notts Forest - maybe once upon a time but not now - and that was all down to a great manager and winning things in the 70s and 80s - but not in terms of a support base

 

Same with Sheffield Wednesday

 

Leeds - yes for now but maybe only just

 

Villa and Everton - same as Leeds but not by much - both are in decline -Villa on the pitch and Everton off it with massive debts

[suewhistle]

Blaming the symptom and not the cause?

 

Yeah, but it's a bit like a primary school playground here: "'Corse we bully him Miss, he's such a nerd"... Or "she was asking for it"....

[suewhistle]

I think the new stadium looks great. I think the red box is probably a red box. I think that we will sell out a 50k'er every game next season. I think that if it's not completed by the start of the new season I will be sending a very strongly worded email to Nicola voicing my very serious disapproval at our lack of intent.

 

Admit it, you've been doing a correspondence course with Turkish! Remember it's a very tiresome form of humour...

[dune]

To be honest I find birds that drinks pints very attractive.

 

I think you're in Suzy.

[Turkish]

I think you're in Suzy.

 

The dungarees put me off her I'm afraid.

[Micky]

Admit it, you've been doing a correspondence course with Turkish! Remember it's a very tiresome form of humour...

 

Me, correspond with Turkish - I think not. We spar occassionally on here but that is the limit of our interaction. Can't believe that you found my, one and only, post on this thread tiresome. Perhaps if I had just typed 'concept' and 'perspective' my point would have been better made.

[Turkish]

Me, correspond with Turkish - I think not. We spar occassionally on here but that is the limit of our interaction. Can't believe that you found my, one and only, post on this thread tiresome. Perhaps if I had just typed 'concept' and 'perspective' my point would have been better made.

 

I didn't find it tiresome Micky. You made some valid points.

[Micky]

I didn't find it tiresome Micky. You made some valid points.

 

Careful, people will think we really are mates and I wouldn't want that mate.

[IFHP]

I've already given an answer to that. It isn't a question that can be answered at present with the information available to us. "Bigger club" debates are all very subjective and ultimately pointless and end in circular arguments anyway.

 

**** me what information do you need?

What makes a big club?

Trophy’s – European cups? League titles? FA Cups? League Cups? Paint pot?

Historical attendances?

No. of years playing top flight football?

No. of seasons competing in European competitions?

[Turkish]

**** me what information do you need?

What makes a big club?

Trophy’s – European cups? League titles? FA Cups? League Cups? Paint pot?

Historical attendances?

No. of years playing top flight football?

No. of seasons competing in European competitions?

 

In post 252 MLG clearly lays out the factors that need to be taken into account when deciding which club is bigger

 

Historic attendances

population

league and cup success

infrastructure

 

Yet when it comes to deciding which club is bigger out of Saints and Everton or Villa none of these things apply. For example, despite Saints having never had a higher average attendance than Everton and smaller grounds than both of them it doesn't matter because we should speculate of what attendances might have been in the past if Saints had had a 50,000 capacity stadium (despite averaging 4,000 lower than a 24,000 capacity in the early 80s with our best ever team) and what they might be in the future if St Marys is ever expanded. Apparantly in the case of Saints, guess work as to how things might have been and could be in the future is a much better guide to facts.

[trousers]

[Joensuu]

Have I missed the post where someone has claimed us to be bigger than Villa or Everton? I've looked for it, but it doesn't seem to exist.

 

I have seen MLG pointing out that we probably won't be far off of Everton attendance this year, despite us being capped by the capacity of St Mary's, and no doubt, finish below them in the league. Which, seems quite likely.

 

Also, I got shouted down for my last post yesterday. Apparently nobody is now openly arguing against expansion, just passionately against the probably of it happening. Is that right? I remember the same people passionately arguing against Cortese two years ago ; then against the possibility of back-to-back promotion. It seems to me that many still find it hard to take a chairman at his word. Cortese has certainly lived up to his word so far, why shouldn't we trust him to continue to do so? He stated that he was considering expansion options in 2010. We have now been given a glimpse of at least one option, indicating that something however small has been processed. It may never happen, but I'd suggest, unless anything forces Cortese's hand, that we'll hear more about expansion plans over the next year or so.

 

Anyhow, the forum bullies aren't interested in such, and only seem to want to play a game of who's got the biggest club, so I'll return to their favored subject. In the mid 90s, who were the 'bigger' club, Villa, Leeds, or Chelsea?

[Wes Tender]

What a tedious bore this has become. What is an interesting piece of information, i.e. that the club has gone to the trouble and expense of having some images drawn up so it's reasonable to conclude that expansion is on the agenda, has descended into the usual micro analysis of every thing MLG says by Turkish and his pals. I'm not sure what you get from it but the fact that you seem to want to turn every thread this way suggests that you must get some sort of kick out of it. Here's an idea, move on, let it go and let this forum exist as a place to discuss Saints news, rather than this tedious nonsense.

 

I think it looks great by the way.

 

Top post of the thread

[georgeweahscousin]

Not sure we should get too carried away by the images.

 

Love the DVD though. Goosebumps.

[Frank's cousin]

I think we'll struggle to fill a 40,000 stadium on a regular basis.

 

Probably true, in fact even with a top 10 position and holding our own, on 'regular' basis based on historic attendances we would probably see no more than 30-32k. The question is would we fill it for say 40%.. the 'bigger' games and would additional capacity allow more flexible pricing models for less 'attractive' games? Is there a financial model (and a lot of that depends on how such a development is funded) that factors this in and demonstrates to the decison makers its still worth it? Add in the whole image issue and potential of revenue generated from additional facilities and IMHO, you start to build a reasonable business case for development (especially if we are only talking about 40k or so).

 

NC will be well awre of past attendances, as well as appreciating the current economic climate and the impact on attendance of potential future relegation (2 years in the prem does not mean we will never be relagated) - but you don't develop infrastructure based on the worst case scenario, its developed to maximise potential - obviously within a measured risk assessment (and that will be primarily influenced by the cost of any finance)

 

How 'big' we are/have been as a club compared to others and what they have done is IMHO irrrelevant - its surely about how 'big' we can become? The potential to grow and ensuring the facilities are in place to realise that potential will be a major part in the decsion making process.

 

Yes we need to demonstrate that the approach and finance from a stable prem position (staying up) is working - but that is about demonstrating its 'Possible' to punch above our current weight, but there is also an element of the 'chicken and egg' scenario here. The only 100% evidence as to whether it makes economic sense will be be when its built and we see actual attendances, even if we sold out 32k every week next season and ha 4000-8000 turned away, its no guarrantee we would see this converted into actual 37-40k average gate....

 

... Re flexible pricing - some find this amusing - fair enough. But lets assume for one moment that we already had 40k capacity and it was covered as with SMS with a manageable 2mil per annum repayment - would we sell out at £40k a ticket? NO, would we sell out at a RANGE between £20-60? with better deals for kids and OAPs? I believe its possible to devlop a pricing model that does not compromise total revenue or operating surplus (given additional match day costs associated with additional attendance). Capacity gives you that flexibilty for less attractive games, yet allows you to max out on revenue where demand is higher...

 

So why was this not done when in L1 and the NPC? Well it could have been, and only NC will know the answer, but I suspect in part is that we were probably at the max of interest in L1 and NPC football - we need to be honest and accept that interest is significantly lower at that level and the current core fan base is closer to 20k than 40k... but the Prem is a different ball game and I would not be surprized if these boards don have many threads form moaning about the 'JCLs' with their STs preventing 'core support that was loyal in L1) from getting a ticket against any of the top 6-8 sides next season...

[suewhistle]

Me, correspond with Turkish - I think not. We spar occassionally on here but that is the limit of our interaction. Can't believe that you found my, one and only, post on this thread tiresome.

 

Apologies, you got a bit of a backlash for the excesses of certain other posters. It was more like "oh, please, don't _you_ start".:-)

[suewhistle]

Is anyone else of the opinion that it is good to have a stadium that you don't fill every week?

 

This, Wade Garrett's question and Frank's Cousin's comment are reasonable points. The budgetting for SMS assumed one third at 18k, one third at around 24k and the rest near capacity. It's a bit like transport infrastructure where the seat is the ultimate perishable product: you'll never have a system with so much slack so that it's never full, but you try and increase capacity as demand increases and then tailor and fine tune that demand through other means to get the best yield (e.g. special offers, cheap day returns, etc.).

 

At the moment I'm pondering my holiday dates, but there's no point me staying on until the 1st September if I can't get a s****n' Man Utd ticket, and it's a genuine worry that they may be difficult to get. If it's really too easy people pick and choose and roll up (or not) on the day, if it gets too difficult to get tickets people give up. Of course we wouldn't sell out 40,000 every week but that's not how it works.

[Islander]

Sorry but I haven't read all the posts regarding how big we are but while I understand we wil never have the hstory of teams like Villa, Everton, Leeds etc. The question should be how big are we now? Ignoring history and past attendances we should value our club by what we have compared to others. We own our stadium, have a fantastic training facility, top academy, no debt, good squad, good manager, and an excellent business brain behind it all. I know what happens on the pitch is all important but how many clubs have better than we have. On this basis what position would we be in? Even the champions don't own their ground!

As an aside I can't believe that NC would have shown pictures of a stadium expansion unless he was serious in implementing this in the near future. The images would have stayed private if not!! I believe (just my opinion) that this will started next summer to be finalised by summer of 2015 (Rugby WC).

[Wurzel]

... Re flexible pricing - some find this amusing - fair enough. But lets assume for one moment that we already had 40k capacity and it was covered as with SMS with a manageable 2mil per annum repayment - would we sell out at £40k a ticket? NO, would we sell out at a RANGE between £20-60? with better deals for kids and OAPs? I believe its possible to devlop a pricing model that does not compromise total revenue or operating surplus (given additional match day costs associated with additional attendance). Capacity gives you that flexibilty for less attractive games, yet allows you to max out on revenue where demand is higher...

 

Not read the whole thread thanks to the usual childish squabbling but from what I have , that is the most relevant comment.

 

The argument that we averaged around 30K last time in the PL so it's big enough seems to be based on the assumption that it was the same 30K turning up every week. It wasn't. A 30K average probably consists of 20K hardcore turning up regardless and, I'd hazard a guess here, but anything up to another 40K , for whatever reason, attend only 3 or 4 games a season. They're not, and never would be ALL at the same match on the same day, but certainly there will be games that will be attractive to them than others. A bigger stadium wouldn't necessarily be aimed at trying to increase that 20K hardcore, but a combination of increasing that 40k of casuals to say 60/70K (just look at our catchment area for top flight football) and/or increase their attendance from 3 to 4 games to maybe 7 or 8 through a better facilities, more attractive product and tickets being easier to obtain. If some of those end up adding to the hardcore even better.

I think those "casual" numbers are the ones the club are far more interested in. Their database will tell them how many attended 1 game, 2 games, 3 games etc and they are the ones future plans will be aimed at.

[Turkish]

Ahh and we're back to flexible pricing. Can someone please explain why any sensibly run business would spend 10s of millions expanding and then dramatically reduce the entrance prices for to sell the tickets?

[Wes Tender]

Not read the whole thread thanks to the usual childish squabbling but from what I have , that is the most relevant comment.

 

The argument that we averaged around 30K last time in the PL so it's big enough seems to be based on the assumption that it was the same 30K turning up every week. It wasn't. A 30K average probably consists of 20K hardcore turning up regardless and, I'd hazard a guess here, but anything up to another 40K , for whatever reason, attend only 3 or 4 games a season. They're not, and never would be ALL at the same match on the same day, but certainly there will be games that will be attractive to them than others. A bigger stadium wouldn't necessarily be aimed at trying to increase that 20K hardcore, but a combination of increasing that 40k of casuals to say 60/70K (just look at our catchment area for top flight football) and/or increase their attendance from 3 to 4 games to maybe 7 or 8 through a better facilities, more attractive product and tickets being easier to obtain. If some of those end up adding to the hardcore even better.

I think those "casual" numbers are the ones the club are far more interested in. Their database will tell them how many attended 1 game, 2 games, 3 games etc and they are the ones future plans will be aimed at.

 

All very sensible, but how very dare you mention the catchment area! You run the risk of the forum fashionistas jumping on this comment and telling you that the catchment area has nothing to do with our potential to fill an enlarged stadium and how clubs like Derby have larger catchment areas, what with all the villages in the Peak District, etc.

[buctootim]

The argument that we averaged around 30K last time in the PL so it's big enough seems to be based on the assumption that it was the same 30K turning up every week. It wasn't. A 30K average probably consists of 20K hardcore turning up regardless and, I'd hazard a guess here, but anything up to another 40K , for whatever reason, attend only 3 or 4 games a season. They're not, and never would be ALL at the same match on the same day, but certainly there will be games that will be attractive to them than others. A bigger stadium wouldn't necessarily be aimed at trying to increase that 20K hardcore, but a combination of increasing that 40k of casuals to say 60/70K (just look at our catchment area for top flight football) and/or increase their attendance from 3 to 4 games to maybe 7 or 8 through a better facilities, more attractive product and tickets being easier to obtain. If some of those end up adding to the hardcore even better.

I think those "casual" numbers are the ones the club are far more interested in. Their database will tell them how many attended 1 game, 2 games, 3 games etc and they are the ones future plans will be aimed at.

 

Ive been to more games (and taken more people with me) since we've been in the Championship and Lg1 simply because tickets have been easier to get hold of. Factors like ease of availability, turn up and pay, being able to sit together etc definitely play a role in attendances - so to some extent more seats available when in the prem does equal higher attendance. .

Edited 21 June, 2012 by buctootim

[Saint J 77]

Sorry but I haven't read all the posts regarding how big we are but while I understand we wil never have the hstory of teams like Villa, Everton, Leeds etc. The question should be how big are we now? Ignoring history and past attendances we should value our club by what we have compared to others. We own our stadium, have a fantastic training facility, top academy, no debt, good squad, good manager, and an excellent business brain behind it all. I know what happens on the pitch is all important but how many clubs have better than we have. On this basis what position would we be in? Even the champions don't own their ground!

As an aside I can't believe that NC would have shown pictures of a stadium expansion unless he was serious in implementing this in the near future. The images would have stayed private if not!! I believe (just my opinion) that this will started next summer to be finalised by summer of 2015 (Rugby WC).

 

I just wonder if this extension was built how long would it actually take? I'm guessing it would be done in stages. So how much revenue would be lost each season of building. Assuming certain parts of the ground would need to be closed as each stage progressed?

[View From The Top]

Not read the whole thread thanks to the usual childish squabbling but from what I have , that is the most relevant comment.

 

The argument that we averaged around 30K last time in the PL so it's big enough seems to be based on the assumption that it was the same 30K turning up every week. It wasn't. A 30K average probably consists of 20K hardcore turning up regardless and, I'd hazard a guess here, but anything up to another 40K , for whatever reason, attend only 3 or 4 games a season. They're not, and never would be ALL at the same match on the same day, but certainly there will be games that will be attractive to them than others. A bigger stadium wouldn't necessarily be aimed at trying to increase that 20K hardcore, but a combination of increasing that 40k of casuals to say 60/70K (just look at our catchment area for top flight football) and/or increase their attendance from 3 to 4 games to maybe 7 or 8 through a better facilities, more attractive product and tickets being easier to obtain. If some of those end up adding to the hardcore even better.

I think those "casual" numbers are the ones the club are far more interested in. Their database will tell them how many attended 1 game, 2 games, 3 games etc and they are the ones future plans will be aimed at.

 

That is a very good point.

[The Kraken]

... Re flexible pricing - some find this amusing - fair enough. But lets assume for one moment that we already had 40k capacity and it was covered as with SMS with a manageable 2mil per annum repayment - would we sell out at £40k a ticket? NO' date=' would we sell out at a RANGE between £20-60? with better deals for kids and OAPs? I believe its possible to devlop a pricing model that does not compromise total revenue or operating surplus (given additional match day costs associated with additional attendance). Capacity gives you that flexibilty for less attractive games, yet allows you to max out on revenue where demand is higher... [/quote']

 

FC, you've consistently raised the flexible pricing idea, and while its a nice concept I just don't see a viable business case.

 

We first need to recognise that season tickets provide the most reliable and stable form of funding for the season (in terms of total ticket sales). Although SFC don't actively go out of their way to market ST sales, with over 14,000 sales last year it is clearly still the most important form of ticketing. Now, season tickets are based upon the total price paid being less than the price per game on match tickets. Without that benefit, there's little point in buying a season ticket aside from enjoying the same seat and not having to call up the ticket office each week, which significantly reduces the benefits seen.

 

When you say "flexible" ticketing, it really means cheaper. So if you're introducing that, you're reducing further the cost benefit of a season ticket. Take the flexible approach too far and you have the distinct possibility of buying tickets on a match by match basis actually cheaper than a season ticket. Which would be a massive business-case own goal in the long term, as you've just completely devalued the entire range of ticketing.

 

You only have to scour this forum's predecessor and Saintslist in our previous time in the PL to see the effect discounted prices had amongst the ST base. It massively alienated them and provoked the reaction of "what's the point in getting an ST if its just as cheap not to, or even cheaper?" So you also risk eroding the season ticket base, which as I've said is extremely important to the club.

 

Added to that; I do find it very tough to justify the business case of spending many millions on a bigger stadium if you already recognise that you would need to heavily discount prices in order to fill it. You create extra capacity to satisfy demand, not the other way round.

 

EDIT: To add, we already have a flexible ticketing system, in the categorisation of games. Teams such as Man Utd, Arsenal etc are Cat A games, lesser teams ar Cat C games and therefore cheaper. There are already cheaper prices available for children and OAPs. So let's not say that there's no flexibility in our pricing as it currently stands.

Edited 21 June, 2012 by The Kraken

[buctootim]

You create extra capacity to satisfy demand, not the other way round.

 

Depends on what you are trying to achieve. If you want to maximise revenue and minimise costs in the current season you keep capacity at 32,400 and pitch prices as high as you can whilst still selling out. If you have some kind of long term vision of turning Saints into a much bigger club you might subsidise additional attendances now (incentives for kids, people in outlying areas etc) in order to create a larger paying fan base later. Plans like that might not pay off for 20 years but they are doable.

Edited 21 June, 2012 by buctootim

[The Kraken]

Depends on what you are trying to achieve. If you want to maximise revenue and minimise costs in the current season you keep capacity at 32,400 and pitch prices as high as you can whilst still selling out. If you have some kind of long term vision of turning Saints into a much bigger club you might subsidise additional attendances now (incentives for kids, people in outlying areas etc) in order to create a larger paying fan base later. Plans like that might not pay off for 20 years but they are doable.

 

To use FC's notion of a 40K stadium. I personally believe (at least in the PL) that a 40K stadium would actually satisfy the demand for tickets against the top few sides in the PL. Against Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool I think we'd get close to sell out even if we were struggling. And I think we could possibly get close to 40K against the likes of Man City, Tottenham and Chelsea if we had a team performing well. Against the lower ranked sides I still think we'd only see attendances around 30K or so.

 

So I think FC's idea of a 40K stadium both satisifies the extra demand that the bigger games would create and also keeps the ticket prices high. It also leaves the possibility for us being able to push on as a club and drive the attendances against the lower ranked sides higher in the years to come, as you mention.

 

That said, I'd still be concerned about the business case of building a bigger stadium and having it 3/4 full most of the time. As I've previously said I don't think you can arbitrarily significantly discount match tickets for less popular games just to put bums on seats; wouldn't work IMO. This is why, as we've been saying for some time, I'm sure that SFC will in the next season or two (or longer) be looking very closely at a number of factors including ST sales, match ticket prices, home attendances, how quickly match tickets sell out, waiting lists etc etc before they actually commit to a bigger stadium.

[Joensuu]

Good points Kraken. If we expanded, cheap pricing will almost certainly be introduced for less attractive games. However, the more attractive games will be priced at a higher rate. As such over the course of the season, a season ticket holder will still be the cheapest way to see all of the games.

 

Additionally, it's likely that certain areas of the ground will be specified for the discounted tickets - particularlly high in the corners. When you factor that in the benefit to holding a season ticket is even more apparent - in theory nobody should end up feeling alienated.

 

 

Season ticket holders will end up with the cheapest tickets to view every game of the season - they will also have a pick of the best views.

 

Irregular visitors (children OAPs etc) will get cheap tickets with average views to the least attractive games.

 

The club gets to maximise both income and attendance.

 

Everyone wins.

[The Kraken]

Good points Kraken. If we expanded, cheap pricing will almost certainly be introduced for less attractive games. However, the more attractive games will be priced at a higher rate. As such over the course of the season, a season ticket holder will still be the cheapest way to see all of the games.

 

Additionally, it's likely that certain areas of the ground will be specified for the discounted tickets - particularlly high in the corners. When you factor that in the benefit to holding a season ticket is even more apparent - in theory nobody should end up feeling alienated.

 

First point: cheap pricing has already been introduced for less attractive games, we have Cat A, Cat B and Cat C.

 

Second point: I'm not so sure. I know that we already have different prices for goals, wings, sides and now premium seating. I'm not sure how viable it would be to introduce another (cheaper) banding of tickets. Besides, I'd suggest that at the size of stadium we're looking at, even a seat high in the corner is going to be a great view. And again, it goes back to the idea of putting in extra seats if you need to discount them to shift them on.

[buctootim]

I'd still be concerned about the business case of building a bigger stadium and having it 3/4 full most of the time. As I've previously said I don't think you can arbitrarily significantly discount match tickets for less popular games just to put bums on seats; wouldn't work IMO. This is why, as we've been saying for some time, I'm sure that SFC will in the next season or two (or longer) be looking very closely at a number of factors including ST sales, match ticket prices, home attendances, how quickly match tickets sell out, waiting lists etc etc before they actually commit to a bigger stadium.

 

I agree you are right in that the club will look carefully at those factors before committing. I do think however that you can "arbitrarily significantly discount match tickets for less popular games just to put bums on seats". Airlines do it all the time using dynamic demand - the base price of a ticket is determined by some factors known in advance ( eg summer / school holidays ) and that base price is then gradually modified by actual sales - lots of tickets left = lower price, few tickets left = higher price. Im not necessarily advocating it, but it is possible.

[The Kraken]

I agree you are right in that the club will look carefully at those factors before committing. I do think however that you can "arbitrarily significantly discount match tickets for less popular games just to put bums on seats". Airlines do it all the time using dynamic demand - the base price of a ticket is determined by some factors known in advance ( eg summer / school holidays ) and that base price is then gradually modified by actual sales - lots of tickets left = lower price, few tickets left = higher price. Im not necessarily advocating it, but it is possible.

 

Yeah I've heard the easyjet argument before and couldn't disagree more with it. Selling flights and selling match tickets are completely incomparable IMO.

 

Let's say, for instance, you're thinking about going to Saints v Fulham. Or Norwich. Basically, one of the least attractive fixtures. And lets say you know that prices will come down the closer you get to kick off if there's plenty of tickets available. What is there to incentivise you to buy your ticket earlier, and therefore more expensively? I don't see us selling out 40K against these sides so there's no need to get in there early. Everyone will surely just wait until the price comes down and therefore buy at the lower price. All you're doing is pushing sales back and lowering prices. Against the higher ranked sides I'd imagine tickets would be priced high anyway (they are, for Cat A games).

 

Sorry, i think that one's totally unrealistic and always have.

[buctootim]

Let's say, for instance, you're thinking about going to Saints v Fulham. Or Norwich. Basically, one of the least attractive fixtures. And lets say you know that prices will come down the closer you get to kick off if there's plenty of tickets available. What is there to incentivise you to buy your ticket earlier, and therefore more expensively?

 

Thats not how dynamic demand works. You set the base price in advance with the aim of selling all tickets for the maximum revenue. Man U might be £50 and Norwich £20. The price then varies depending on high or low demand. The Norwich ticket price might rise as it gets closer to the game whilst poor demand might cause the Man u ones to fall.