Our Future? Stadium Expansion Proposal on Season Ticket DVD

[Joensuu]

I find the relentless negativity and lack of ambition shown by the loudest on this thread really rather depressing. Thank goodness the club seem to be showing some forward thinking, and aren't subject to the same lack of enthusiasm that many on here are showing.

 

I don't understand the motivation of those on here who seem to be arguing so hard against expansion?

[JPTCount]

Maybe it will. But the factors that stopped people going last season still exist, do they not?

 

I am not saying we should never ever expand, all i am saying is that it'd be better to make sure we can fill it first before spending millions on expanding it. We do this by filling what we have every week and by turning people away. Demand outstripping supply.

 

ye they do, but they don't matter as much if it's epl football, if we were still in the championship then ur argument might hold more but i know i'd rather spend £50 and watch premiership football on a rainy mid week evening in december, than pay £25 and watch league 1

 

i agree there's no point doing it now, plus there's so much to do, and if we are back in league 1 in 3 years then they won't do it, but it is just a vision for the future, this is nothing concrete, and i'm sure it won't all be done at once. if we stay in the epl this season, and sell out 90% of games, maybe we can hope for a an extra 4-8k in time for the rugby world cup

[Crazy Diamond]

I find the relentless negativity and lack of ambition shown by the loudest on this thread really rather depressing. Thank goodness the club seem to be showing some forward thinking, and aren't subject to the same lack of enthusiasm that many on here are showing.

 

I don't understand the motivation of those on here who seem to be arguing so hard against expansion?

 

Hang on, who's arguing against it? It's more of a debate over whether or not it will happen, is it not?

[Matthew Le God]

You are aware, of course, why Italian attendances have fallen through the floor aren't you?

 

You are aware, of course, that Udinese haven't averaged over 20,000 since 2001 aren't you?

 

That can't be solely down to the match fixing scandal can it?

Edited 20 June, 2012 by Matthew Le God

[Turkish]

Which is why I told you before it is hard to make a comparison, because until Saints have a larger stadium and finish as high as Everton in the league, how can you tell? For most of Saints' 126 years they have been restricted/stunted from fulfilling what they could.

 

No it isn't its easy.

 

Population

League and cup sucess

Infrastructure

historical attendances

 

Everton 3.5 Saints 0.5

 

They were you're factors for Man U or Darlington, why are they now different for Saints and Everton?

[Turkish]

I find the relentless negativity and lack of ambition shown by the loudest on this thread really rather depressing. Thank goodness the club seem to be showing some forward thinking, and aren't subject to the same lack of enthusiasm that many on here are showing.

 

I don't understand the motivation of those on here who seem to be arguing so hard against expansion?

 

Who is doing this?

[The Kraken]

I find the relentless negativity and lack of ambition shown by the loudest on this thread really rather depressing. Thank goodness the club seem to be showing some forward thinking, and aren't subject to the same lack of enthusiasm that many on here are showing.

 

I don't understand the motivation of those on here who seem to be arguing so hard against expansion?

Who has argued against expansion?

[latter day saint]

any new members to this site should be made to read this thread to let them see what they've let themselves in for !

it's a nice day, go outside FFS !

[Matthew Le God]

No it isn't its easy.

 

Population

League and cup sucess

Infrastructure

historical attendances

 

Everton 3.5 Saints 0.5

 

They were you're factors for Man U or Darlington, why are they now different for Saints and Everton?

 

You are continuing to ignore the counters I raise and the questions I pose, so I can't be bothered with this line anymore.

[JPTCount]

No it isn't its easy.

 

Population

League and cup sucess

Infrastructure

historical attendances

 

Everton 3.5 Saints 0.5

 

They were you're factors for Man U or Darlington, why are they now different for Saints and Everton?

 

what does this even matter? stop just playing devil's advocate with MLG

[View From The Top]

You are aware, of course, that Udinese haven't averaged over 20,000 since 2001 aren't you?

 

That can't be solely down to the match fixing scandal can it?

 

So you aren't aware why attendances have fallen so much? Match fixing has very, very little to do with it.

[stev2001]

I think these drawings are a gauntlet thrown down by NC. He is showing his hand of his ambition and now it is up to the fans to show theirs with attendances. I know I keep saying it but I feel this season is key.

[View From The Top]

You are continuing to ignore the counters I raise and the questions I pose, so I can't be bothered with this line anymore.

 

Please explain how Saints are bigger than Villa, as you have stated before.

[up and away]

Originally Posted by Matthew Le God

 

32k

7k on Kingland

3k on Chapel

3k on Northam

 

= 45k

 

As I said "maybe more", so could be an extra 3k you talked about (spilt over the three stands) taking it to 48k.

 

OK. I'll accept your 7K on the Kingsland. I think your 3K on the Northam/Chapel is way out, and I'll explain why.

 

In the original incarnation of the stadium it was possible for 8K extra on the Kingland, and 4K on the Chapel and Northam. That assumed that seats on the Northam and Chapel would go back as far as the Kingsland extension. In the new design, they clearly don't.

 

I was thinking along similar lines myself, just how many extra seats can we get in the Northam/Chapel? But I thought it would be at least 2500 each, otherwise the cost per seat would be disproportionately high. I assumed 8000 for the Kingsland as previously but that can vary with the corporate boxes. Corporate being the area the club are really targeting at maximising our revenue streams for the future. You are not going to fit out the Northam/Itchen with corporate so that may have something to do with the height of the roofs?

[Matthew Le God]

So you aren't aware why attendances have fallen so much? Match fixing has very, very little to do with it.

 

Okay, why haven't Udinese averaged over 20,000 in the Italian top flight since 2001?

[Turkish]

You are continuing to ignore the counters I raise and the questions I pose, so I can't be bothered with this line anymore.

 

What counter arguements are there? You set the criteria above.

 

Population

League and cup success

Infrastructure

historical attendances

 

There was no mention of specuatlion what attendances might be in 2023 or what trophies Saints might have won by 2078.

[Turkish]

Please explain how Saints are bigger than Villa, as you have stated before.

 

Lets use the criteria he has used in the past but is now back tracking on.

 

 

Population

League and cup success

Infrastructure

historical attendances

[Matthew Le God]

What counter arguements are there? You set the criteria above.

 

Population

League and cup success

Infrastructure

historical attendances

 

There was no mention of specuatlion what attendances might be in 2023 or what trophies Saints might have won by 2078.

 

You are continuing to ignore the counters I raise and the questions I pose.

 

You clearly didn't read and/or understand what I said.

 

In any case...

 

So I can't be bothered with this line anymore.

 

Just more circular arguments.

 

Back on topic, what does everyone think could be in the red building? Also the red building is merely the top part of a larger structure underneath that wraps around the Chapel Stand, what could that be?

 

 

Maybe a sunken arena like the Ricoh? With the red building on top a museum, conference hall, megastore...

 

Edited 20 June, 2012 by Matthew Le God

[View From The Top]

Okay, why haven't Udinese averaged over 20,000 in the Italian top flight since 2001?

 

I asked a simple question, that has nothing to do with Udine but everything to do with the issue of paying customers, as witnessed in Italy.

 

Every top flight match in Italy, as well as a few Serie B games, are on TV on club "season tickets", added to that are all the live streams. This means that fans are no longer going, but watching games at home/bars

 

I know of Inter fans who now only go for then Derby & Juve games and Lazio fans who do Roma/Inter/AC/Juve only, despite previously being season ticket holders since God was a boy.

 

It is no accident that Juve, the biggest club in Italy by a mile, built a small stadium.

 

As I & others have alluded to, cost will mean plenty alter how they watch saints in the future.

Edited 20 June, 2012 by View From The Top

[View From The Top]

Lets use the criteria he has used in the past but is now back tracking on.

 

 

Population - 1,000,000+ in addition to catchment area that includes West Mids, Wors, Warks, Shrop, Staffs

League and cup success - More than us, including a European club

Infrastructure - Excellent stadium and state of the art academy with a proven record of producing 1st team players.

historical attendances - Way bigger, including record Div3/L1 crowd.

[The Kraken]

I was thinking along similar lines myself, just how many extra seats can we get in the Northam/Chapel? But I thought it would be at least 2500 each, otherwise the cost per seat would be disproportionately high. I assumed 8000 for the Kingsland as previously but that can vary with the corporate boxes. Corporate being the area the club are really targeting at maximising our revenue streams for the future. You are not going to fit out the Northam/Itchen with corporate so that may have something to do with the height of the roofs?

 

Really difficult to tell with the images we have; but I genuinely don't think there is more than an extra 1,000 - 1,500 seats in each of the Northam and Chapel ends. In the Itchen corners the height of seats still seems to be the same as now. And the seats don't seem to rise as high as the Kingland new tier; hence the raised step of the Kingsland roof. Can't really tell from the pictures but it seems to me that the new Northam and Chapel roofs are level, rather than sloped up to the Kingland (again as evidenced by the step up in roof heights), so I'm not sure how much actual capacity that would allow for.

 

Hopefully we'll actually see some formal designs and planning applications go in soon to answer these questions. There's no reason why not; Reading have had planning approval for their stadium increase since 2007.

[Turkish]

You clearly didn't read and/or understand what I said.

 

In any case...

 

 

 

Just more circular arguments.

 

Back on topic, what does everyone think could be in the red building? Also the red building is merely the top part of a larger structure underneath that wraps around the Chapel Stand, what could that be?

 

Maybe a sunken arena like the Ricoh? With the red building on top a museum, conference hall, megastore...

 

 

So to counter your own argument that historical attendances are one of the 4 yardsticks when measuring club size what you acutally meant was ignore historical attendances and speculate on what atteendancesight have been or be if saints had or will have in the future a stadium of equal size? This is a better yardstick, yes?

[Matthew Le God]

I asked a simple question, that has nothing to do with Udine but everything to do with the issue of paying customers, as witnessed in Italy.

 

Every top flight match in Italy, as well as a few Serie B games, are on TV on club "season tickets", added to that are all the live streams. This means that fans are no longer going, but watching games at home/bars

 

I know of Inter fans who now only go for then Derby & Juve games and Lazio fans who do Roma/Inter/AC/Juve only, despite previously being season ticket holders since God was a boy.

 

It is no accident that Juve, the biggest club in Italy by a mile, built a small stadium.

 

And how long has that been used for? Even in the 1990's Udinese were only averaging 23k, which means they had fewer home fans than Saint did in League One.

[Matthew Le God]

So to counter your own argument that historical attendances are one of the 4 yardsticks when measuring club size what you acutally meant was ignore historical attendances and speculate on what atteendancesight have been or be if saints had or will have in the future a stadium of equal size? This is a better yardstick, yes?

 

No, what I wanted you to do was to look at when Saints averaged 30k in a 32k stadium and came 20th and compare that with Everton coming 7th and averaging 33k in a 40k stadium. Can you honestly not see how that is telling of the fanbases? No, of course you can't, hence why we keep having these circular arguments and even I am now starting to get bored of them!

[Turkish]

Population - 1,000,000+ in addition to catchment area that includes West Mids, Wors, Warks, Shrop, Staffs

League and cup success - More than us, including a European club

Infrastructure - Excellent stadium and state of the art academy with a proven record of producing 1st team players.

historical attendances - Way bigger, including record Div3/L1 crowd.

 

I make that Villa 4 Saints 0

 

So using MLGs own factors as to what makes a club bigger, despite his claims both Everton and villa and are bigger than Saints.

Edited 20 June, 2012 by Turkish

[View From The Top]

And how long has that been used for? Even in the 1990's Udinese were only averaging 23k, which means they had fewer home fans than Saint did in League One.

 

Now I appreciate you're very selective in your reading and a bit thick but what part of "that has nothing to do with Udine but everything to do with the issue of paying customers, as witnessed in Italy." don't you understand?

[Matthew Le God]

Now I appreciate you're very selective in your reading and a bit thick but what part of "that has nothing to do with Udine but everything to do with the issue of paying customers, as witnessed in Italy." don't you understand?

 

I asked when it started, you still haven't answered.

[The Kraken]

No, what I wanted you to do was to look at when Saints averaged 30k in a 32k stadium and came 20th and compare that with Everton coming 7th and averaging 33k in a 40k stadium. Can you honestly not see how that is telling of the fanbases? No, of course you can't, hence why we keep having these circular arguments and even I am now starting to get bored of them!

 

How can you compare Saints' attendance from 2004 with Everton's from last season? Hardly relevant. If you're looking for an accurate comparison then you simply have to compare attendances from the same seasons. So either a comparison in 2004 or a comparison last year. Anything else is massively flawed.

[Turkish]

No, what I wanted you to do was to look at when Saints averaged 30k in a 32k stadium and came 20th and compare that with Everton coming 7th and averaging 33k in a 40k stadium. Can you honestly not see how that is telling of the fanbases? No, of course you can't, hence why we keep having these circular arguments and even I am now starting to get bored of them!

 

Oh dear. Didnt you say "attendances for generations" not Saints in 2005 and Evertons in 2012. Have Saints ever had a higher average crowd than Everton? Can you honestly not see how his can be telling of the fan bases? Of course you can't, hence why we keep having these circular arguments even I am starting to get bored with!

[buctootim]

Their highest attendance last season was 19,000; their average attendance was 16,625. So what does that tell us?

 

That Southampton with a population of nearly three times that of Udine should average 16,625 x 3 = 49,875?

[Frank's cousin]

Part of the problem here seems to be because this argument is stuck in a cycle of predicted attendances - and the assumption that attendances are the only factor in determining a go/no go decision (not including the practical issues of planning, adjacent land ownership etc)... when in reality, even with prem stability and an ST waiting list, this offers no guarrantees for future attendance levels, especially given possible relegation/ecomonics etc...

 

Any stadium conbstruction or development project is always going to associated with a level of risk - not necessarily financially as you can forecast and plan the budget to ensure payments are met, even on a L1 budget/attendance level (if needing loans to fund the cap Ex) - no the risk is associated with the numbers going - will fans come even with success? Because no one likes to see huge numbers of empty seats and quite rightly you question the need if there is no demand.

 

But looking at the pictures it looks more like a modest expansion (realistic numbers to generate increased revenues from a % of sell out games (not necessarily all) + a major revamp/asthetic update + some sort of conference facility as an additional revenue generator. All costs money, but there is logic in updating the facility if it makes the venue more attactive for fans and other activities.

 

You cant put a price on it, but you cant underestimate the value of 'image' as well, both in attracting punters and players and encouraging new fans (Surely Turkish will appreciate this what with his own personal style obsession). I will be about more than simply adding up the attendence figures and projecting revenue, It's also about NC and ML wanting to leave their mark, create a club that can be the best it can.

 

Timing will depend on the funding source and level of risk associated with the borrowings and yes demand will play a part in that, but not the only part.

[Sour Mash]

No, what I wanted you to do was to look at when Saints averaged 30k in a 32k stadium and came 20th and compare that with Everton coming 7th and averaging 33k in a 40k stadium. Can you honestly not see how that is telling of the fanbases? No, of course you can't, hence why we keep having these circular arguments and even I am now starting to get bored of them!

Do you honestly believe Saints are bigger than either Villa or Everton? Just a yes or no question.

[Matthew Le God]

Do you honestly believe Saints are bigger than either Villa or Everton? Just a yes or no question.

 

I've already given an answer to that. It isn't a question that can be answered at present with the information available to us. "Bigger club" debates are all very subjective and ultimately pointless and end in circular arguments anyway.

[Matthew Le God]

Simply saying Liverpool and Birmingham are bigger cities than Southampton isn't enough justification. Nottingham is a bigger city than Southampton, yet would you claim Notts County are bigger than Saints?

[The Kraken]

I've already given an answer to that. It isn't a question that can be answered at present with the information available to us. "Bigger club" debates are all very subjective and ultimately pointless and end in circular arguments anyway.

 

Based on the information known to you right now, and that alone, what would be your opinion?

[Matthew Le God]

Based on the information known to you right now, and that alone, what would be your opinion?

 

Is it hard for you to understand that some questions can't be answered unless you have the required information? Simply forcing someone to answer despite this is a bizarre logical step. Also see post #336.

[The Kraken]

Is it hard for you to understand that some questions can't be answered unless you have the required information? Simply forcing someone to answer despite this is a bizarre logical step. Also see post #336.

 

Yes its very hard for me to understand that not only can you not answer you cannot even guess, based upon the information you do actually have (which is very significant).

[stug76]

What a tedious bore this has become. What is an interesting piece of information, i.e. that the club has gone to the trouble and expense of having some images drawn up so it's reasonable to conclude that expansion is on the agenda, has descended into the usual micro analysis of every thing MLG says by Turkish and his pals. I'm not sure what you get from it but the fact that you seem to want to turn every thread this way suggests that you must get some sort of kick out of it. Here's an idea, move on, let it go and let this forum exist as a place to discuss Saints news, rather than this tedious nonsense.

 

I think it looks great by the way.

[Turkish]

I've already given an answer to that. It isn't a question that can be answered at present with the information available to us. "Bigger club" debates are all very subjective and ultimately pointless and end in circular arguments anyway.

 

Same as you used for Man United and Darlington

 

League and Cup performance

Historical attendances

Population

Infratructure

 

You where the one who used these factors. So use them now with Saints against Everton and Villa.Why are these things valid factors when comparing one set of clubs but not when it comes to another?

[Matthew Le God]

Same as you used for Man United and Darlington

 

League and Cup performance

Historical attendances

Population

Infratructure

 

You where the one who used these factors. So use them now with Saints against Everton and Villa.Why are these things valid factors when comparing one set of clubs but not when it comes to another?

 

I've already answered this. You are making this hard when you refuse to read my replies to you.

[Turkish]

I've already answered this. You are making this hard when you refuse to read my replies to you.

 

Because your replies are nonsense, You use these factors then when they disprove your claims you say they aren't valid and we should speculate on what might have happend in the past and what might happen in the future. It really isn't hard. Just apply your factors to Saints and Everton, using FACTS and evidence not speculation, although it seems you find this impossible to do.

[skintsaint]

[Matthew Le God]

Because your replies are nonsense, You use these factors then when they disprove your claims you say they aren't valid and we should speculate on what might have happend in the past and what might happen in the future. It really isn't hard. Just apply your factors to Saints and Everton, using FACTS and evidence not speculation, although it seems you find this impossible to do.

 

The whole area of "bigger clubs" is subjective and makes it especially hard to determine the closer the sides are. Hence why it is easier to distinguish the bigger between Man Utd and Darlington, compared to Everton and Saints.

 

In terms of population, it isn't simply a case of looking at the population of Liverpool and saying in a "top trumps style" that they beat Southampton. Nottingham is a bigger city than Southampton, yet would you claim Notts County are bigger than Saints?

 

Also you at least appear to assume (given you awarded a point for each factor), that all factors should be given equal weighting when determining "who is the bigger". I'd argue that some factors play more significance than others.

[Turkish]

The whole area of "bigger clubs" is subjective and makes it especially hard to determine the closer the sides are. Hence why it is easier to distinguish the bigger between Man Utd and Darlington, compared to Everton and Saints.

 

In terms of population, it isn't simply a case of looking at the population of Liverpool and saying in a "top trumps style" that they beat Southampton. Nottingham is a bigger city than Southampton, yet would you claim Notts County are bigger than Saints?

 

Also you at least appear to assume (given you awarded a point for each factor), that all factors should be given equal weighting when determining "who is the bigger". I'd argue that some factors play more significance than others.

 

So are these factors, the factors you used, valid when deciding which club is bigger or not?

 

League and Cup performance

Historical attendances

Population

Infratructure

 

Also I dont disagree that some factors that your used are more important than other and dont assume they do at all, so why dont you number them for us, 1-4. Obviously population will be number 4. Maybe you could even give them a % and put them into a little pie chart for us all.

Edited 20 June, 2012 by Turkish

[hypochondriac]

Just ignore MLG. To any sensible person Villa and Everton are clearly bigger than saints. People who think otherwise are morons and there is nothing else to talk about.

[steve f 48]

It would seem that a lack of transfer activity is reflected in the forum topics deteriorating into lots of toings and froings climate warming ( lots of hot air), Roll on a signing!

[View From The Top]

I asked when it started, you still haven't answered.

 

Each new round of TV deals has seen attendances drop as fans buy TV season tickets instead on match going season tickets.

 

Now, tell me why Saints are bigger than Villa.

[The Kraken]

Just ignore MLG. To any sensible person Villa and Everton are clearly bigger than saints. People who think otherwise are morons and there is nothing else to talk about.

 

This. Go on any neutral footballing forum and ask which is the bigger club and you'll get a resounding answer. The sheer desperation to not admit that by using utterly irrelavant comparisons and speculation is a bit pathetic.

[ThreeSixty]

MLG in absolute mong shocker. Hold the press.

[View From The Top]

This. Go on any neutral footballing forum and ask which is the bigger club and you'll get a resounding answer. The sheer desperation to not admit that by using utterly irrelavant comparisons and speculation is a bit pathetic.

 

It's amusing though.

 

It's like arguing Shipman wasn't a serial killer, just a really sh.it doctor. You may convince yourself but everyone will know you're simply a loony pr.ick.