Our Future? Stadium Expansion Proposal on Season Ticket DVD

[Turkish]

Eloquently and diplomatically put... but had it been a reasonable 'debate' there would have been no problem... it was the condecending and patronizing nature of those dismissing the idea that a reasonable business case could be made for BOTH wait and see and a more rapid approach meant that thread decended into the usual beatch fest....

 

Please explain the reasonable business case for the more rapid approach.

[The Kraken]

tbh its a pretty false argument. I doubt anybody who isnt a teenager thinks we can sell out a 40,000 capacity ground whilst near the bottom of the EPL. The only real argument is about how high Saints can go and what happens then - and no-one knows the answers to that. In the EPL success is usually directly linked to money.

 

Maybe ML commited his entire fortune to emulating Man City (highly unlikely)- in which case CL in five years would be probable. Or maybe we will be cut off at the knees after this season and will do well to stay up. It largely all comes down to cash available at the end of the day and neither you me or 99.9% of the people posting here know the answer to that - its all speculation and so no post desrves the tedious mocking of a few knobs on here - especially when many of them are simply posted up by excited young fans.

 

First of all, your 40K statement. I'm not going to get into it but the proposal has previously been put forward that we sold out 32K in our relegation season, so the argument was made that 32K wasn't big enough then. Without seeing current ticket prices its difficult to ascertain, but I'd certainly speculate that we could potentially fill 40K against the top 2, 3 maybe 4 sides, even with a struggling Saints side. Against the rest of the division I very much doubt it.

 

Your second post; it seems to suggest that because we don't know the answers we shouldn't speculate. Message boards are a forum to do just do that; we've all made some outlanndish statements that have come back to bite us on the arse. I've certainly made a few; I doubted whether Lambert would step up the Championship, and I certainly didn't think we'd go up last season. I was proven wrong, and I'm happy to accept my judgement wasn't good in those circumstances. If you're saying we shouldn't do that, and shouldn't re-examine previous statements or projections, then I think this would be a pretty quiet place.

[buctootim]

Your second post; it seems to suggest that because we don't know the answers we shouldn't speculate.

 

Absolutely not. The opposite in fact. People should be allowed to speculate and dream even without having a small chihuahua and his escort of attack sheep constantly sniping at them. People are entitled to post up their views and enthusiasm. As to attendance we probably agree - we might only sell out a 40,000 capacity stadium two or three times a season as things stand.

Edited 20 June, 2012 by buctootim

[Frank's cousin]

Please explain the reasonable business case for the more rapid approach.

 

Why bother? So you can mock and twist it and laugh? (the standard response from many on here, if a) they simply dont understand something, b) they dont agree with it....

[View From The Top]

I've got to say, the very tedious baiting of those folk, wrong in my opinion, but entitled to dream, whose opinion is that a much bigger stadium is required now, is getting beyond a joke.

 

Nothing wrong with letting people dream & speculate even if we (I) view it as wrong. They don't need to be told that at every turn.

[Turkish]

Why bother? So you can mock and twist it and laugh? (the standard response from many on here' date=' if a) they simply dont understand something, b) they dont agree with it....[/quote']

 

I am geniunely interested to know what you think the reasonable business case is for immediately spending tens of millions on expanding a football stadium that for the last seven years has only on average been at best 3/4s full.

[dune]

Why bother? So you can mock and twist it and laugh?

 

Yeah.

[Sour Mash]

We've only ever discussed future plans and aspirations, only your little head somehow interpreted that as meaning we expect it to happen next week.

Well they wouldn't be plans for the past would they?

[Pat from Poole]

I've not commented on this issue before, but if you take the case of Paul Lambert walking out on Norwich to go to Villa, I can see little sense in him having done so, other than that Villa have a bigger ground and hence more potential is seen in their ability to win trophies. If Norwich had a 40,000 capacity stadium, to my mind it is less likely that he would have jumped ship.

 

I see potential similar problems could affect us if Saints do well in the Prem this year. In the mad hire/fire world of Prem football, Adkins could potentially be in demand. Now, if Saints were playing in a ground of say, 45,000 capacity, I think Adkins would be less likely to walk.

[Matthew Le God]

I think I posted this on the other thread. as you say hard to tell, but I'm happy to give it a stab.

 

Basically, my benchmark would be the old expansions possible when first building St. Marys, which was a potential extra 8,000 on the Kingsland, and 4,000 each on the Northam and Chapel. From the design, it's very difficult to get a banchmark on just how much bigger the stands are going to be. For a start, the exit points are not really in the correct place (in reality they're much lower down).

 

In any case: I'd suggest the Kingsland is probably not far off the 8,000 extra seats.

I'd guess that the Chapel and the Northam don't actually provide a huge amount of extra seats. Certainly not the 4,000 possible if the stand went round at the same level as the top of the Kingsland. In the corners you can actually see a significant step up from the ends to the side. So I'd guess at maybe only an extra 1,000 per end. So probably a capacity of around 42,000 maybe.

 

Like I say it depends how many extra seats we can get in the Kingsland. There seems to be a new "skin" to the stadium, so that could potentially limit the numbers. We also may look to put in corporate boxes, which again could potentially cut down on numbers.

 

This is what adding 8,250 seats to Brighton's Amex Stadium looks like....

 

http://www.thefootballforum.net/index.php?/topic/211717-amex-stadium-expanding/

 

Saints' plans look a lot more substantial than that.

Edited 20 June, 2012 by Matthew Le God

[The Kraken]

Um, ok. What point are you making?

[Turkish]

This is what adding 8,250 seats to Brighton's Amex Stadium looks like....

 

http://www.thefootballforum.net/index.php?/topic/211717-amex-stadium-expanding/

 

Saints plans look a lot more substantial than that.

 

WTF have Brighton got to do with anything?

[The Kraken]

I've not commented on this issue before, but if you take the case of Paul Lambert walking out on Norwich to go to Villa, I can see little sense in him having done so, other than that Villa have a bigger ground and hence more potential is seen in their ability to win trophies. If Norwich had a 40,000 capacity stadium, to my mind it is less likely that he would have jumped ship.

 

I see potential similar problems could affect us if Saints do well in the Prem this year. In the mad hire/fire world of Prem football, Adkins could potentially be in demand. Now, if Saints were playing in a ground of say, 45,000 capacity, I think Adkins would be less likely to walk.

 

I think you miss the point a bit Pat. It's all well and good playing in a stadium of 45,000. Or 50,000, for that matter. The important factor is, "would we fill it"? And is it commercially viable to do so? Entire speculation is the only answer, of course.

[Crazy Diamond]

The Amex looks like a building site. I realise they're relieved just to have a ground to call their own but after all those years of planning they could have done something a bit better. It looks unfinished, and I'm not sure some extra seats will help cure that.

[Turkish]

I've not commented on this issue before, but if you take the case of Paul Lambert walking out on Norwich to go to Villa, I can see little sense in him having done so, other than that Villa have a bigger ground and hence more potential is seen in their ability to win trophies. If Norwich had a 40,000 capacity stadium, to my mind it is less likely that he would have jumped ship.

 

I see potential similar problems could affect us if Saints do well in the Prem this year. In the mad hire/fire world of Prem football, Adkins could potentially be in demand. Now, if Saints were playing in a ground of say, 45,000 capacity, I think Adkins would be less likely to walk.

 

There is only any point having a bigger ground if you are confident you can fill it. What is the point in spending millions expanding something if we are only going to average 28k? What would you rather have a couple of £6m players or 12,000 empty seats?

[Matthew Le God]

Um, ok. What point are you making?

 

The 8,250 seats Brighton are adding to their stadium don't take up much room, the Saints picture look more substantial in size.

 

WTF have Brighton got to do with anything?

 

If you bothered to read the context of the post, Kraken and I were discussing how big the Saints drawings made the stadium. I was showing him what 8,250 seats looks like when added to an existing stadium, using Brighton as an example. Those 8,250 seats at the Amex compared to the Saints drawings look relatively small.

Edited 20 June, 2012 by Matthew Le God

[Matthew Le God]

There is only any point having a bigger ground if you are confident you can fill it. What is the point in spending millions expanding something if we are only going to average 28k? What would you rather have a couple of £6m players or 12,000 empty seats?

 

We didn't average below 30,600 whilst in the Premier League at St Mary's - including the year we came 20th and were terrible to watch! All with the unambitious, and lack of investment from Rupert Lowe in the team. What makes you think it will be 28,000 now?

Edited 20 June, 2012 by Matthew Le God

[The Kraken]

The 8,250 seats Brighton are adding to their stadium don't take up much room, the Saints picture look more substantial in size.

 

Kraken and I were discussing how big the Saints drawings made the stadium. I was showing him what 8,250 seats looks like when added to an existing stadium, using Brighton as an example.

 

Right. I'm really not sure what you're saying.

 

Are you suggesting that there's actually more than 8,000 seats being added to the Kingsland? Or more behind the goals? Maybe if you provided what numbers YOU think the stadium expansion encompasses you might clear it up a bit.

[Matthew Le God]

Right. I'm really not sure what you're saying.

 

Are you suggesting that there's actually more than 8,000 seats being added to the Kingsland? Or more behind the goals? Maybe if you provided what numbers YOU think the stadium expansion encompasses you might clear it up a bit.

 

I'm saying the Saints expansion (from the relatively poor internal views we have at the moment) looks significantly bigger than the 8,250 expansion of the Amex. That would take the total capacity far beyond merely 40,000.

[Turkish]

We didn't average below 30,600 whilst in the Premier League at St Mary's - including the year we came 20th and were terrible to watch! What makes you think it will be 28,000 now?

 

I didn't say i think we will. What i said was IF we only average 28k.

 

Excuses used this season when we've had low attendances have been that we are in a tough economic climate, people struggle to make midweek games, the weather!!, transport issues, can only afford one game in a week, match is on telly, birthdays, holidays, christenings, ticket tax, the cost. Have these problems suddenly disappeared? Are we no longer in tough econmic times? Are no games going to be on the telly this season? Have prices been dramatically reduced and the ticket tax removed?

[Dig Dig]

There is only any point having a bigger ground if you are confident you can fill it. What is the point in spending millions expanding something if we are only going to average 28k? What would you rather have a couple of £6m players or 12,000 empty seats?

 

Do you not think for 1 second that the club may have performed some analysis and due diligence before discussing the prospect of expanding the stadium? I'm sure there is an element of risk attached to any expansion project but it will be backed up by the appropriate plan and supporting data. Even when St Marys was built, it was done so with expansion in mind.

 

Instead of trying to **** on everyones bonfire, why don't you pop a note to NC detailing all your concerns? I'm sure he's love to hear that you know someone who worked in the ticket office 10 years ago and that you have never encountered a single person who couldn't get a ticket for a saints game.

[dune]

I'm saying the Saints expansion (from the relatively poor internal views we have at the moment) looks significantly bigger than the 8,250 expansion of the Amex. That would take the total capacity far beyond merely 40,000.

 

It's just a picture Jordan Sibley knocked up in his lunch hour.

[Crazy Diamond]

Bit risky to assume either way what our attendances will be. The world has changed since 2005.

[The Kraken]

I'm saying the Saints expansion (from the relatively poor internal views we have at the moment) looks significantly bigger than the 8,250 expansion of the Amex. That would take the total capacity far beyond merely 40,000.

 

So what do you think the capacity will be?

[Matthew Le God]

I didn't say i think we will. What i said was IF we only average 28k.

 

Excuses used this season when we've had low attendances have been that we are in a tough economic climate, people struggle to make midweek games, the weather!!, transport issues, can only afford one game in a week, match is on telly, birthdays, holidays, christenings, ticket tax, the cost. Have these problems suddenly disappeared? Are we no longer in tough econmic times? Are no games going to be on the telly this season? Have prices been dramatically reduced and the ticket tax removed?

 

The reason for lower attendances this season can mainly be put down to being in the 2nd tier. Despite that, a 26,419 average in the 2nd tier is very good - there aren't many English clubs capable of that. Next season the JCL's will return for games in the world's highest profile sporting league.

[Turkish]

The 8,250 seats Brighton are adding to their stadium don't take up much room, the Saints picture look more substantial in size.

 

 

 

If you bothered to read the context of the post, Kraken and I were discussing how big the Saints drawings made the stadium. I was showing him what 8,250 seats looks like when added to an existing stadium, using Brighton as an example. Those 8,250 seats at the Amex compared to the Saints drawings look relatively small.

 

Thanks for the picture. Two small points though, the saints drawings were from the air, the Brighton ones were from Pitchside so impossible to tell from those angles which looks bigger.

 

Also i'm pretty sure that the maximum St Marys can be expanded to is 44k. So even if our plans are so much bigger they are a waste of ink and paper as we can only add on 4,000 more seats than Brighton are doing anyway.

[Matthew Le God]

So what do you think the capacity will be?

 

As I said earlier, from the admittedly poor internal view it looks to be around 45k (maybe more). But it hard to tell as we both admit.

[Turkish]

The reason for lower attendances this season can mainly be put down to being in the 2nd tier. Despite that, a 26,419 average in the 2nd tier is very good - there aren't many English clubs capable of that. Next season the JCL's will return for games in the world's highest profile sporting league.

 

Hang on a minute. A lot of people claimed on here this was one of the best times in their Saints supporting lives, the team was brilliant and one of our best ever, we had record setting home form. Yet still we averaged 6,000 below capacity.

[The Kraken]

As I said earlier, from the admittedly poor internal view it looks to be around 45k (maybe more). But it hard to tell as we both admit.

 

How have you arrived at that figure? I think its mathematically impossible to get to that figure given the restraints we know about (8K potentially added to Kingland, 4K to each of Chapel and Northam) and the limited information in the design.

[Turkish]

Do you not think for 1 second that the club may have performed some analysis and due diligence before discussing the prospect of expanding the stadium? I'm sure there is an element of risk attached to any expansion project but it will be backed up by the appropriate plan and supporting data. Even when St Marys was built, it was done so with expansion in mind.

 

Instead of trying to **** on everyones bonfire, why don't you pop a note to NC detailing all your concerns? I'm sure he's love to hear that you know someone who worked in the ticket office 10 years ago and that you have never encountered a single person who couldn't get a ticket for a saints game.

 

yes, i am absolutely sure they have. Which is why, despite the demands of some people on here, they aren't laying bricks and fitting chairs right now. It seems NC appears to side with the Dell sized mentality posters who would like to see a season or so of sell outs and a full 32k SMS before spunking millions on making it bigger. Does that make sense to you?

[Turkish]

As I said earlier, from the admittedly poor internal view it looks to be around 45k (maybe more). But it hard to tell as we both admit.

 

We can only expand to 44k, so "45k (maybe more)" is bullsh*t from you as usual.

[Crazy Diamond]

So to sum up then, people have called Turkish nasty things, we have some drawings and speculation. My fiver is well spent.

[Matthew Le God]

Thanks for the picture. Two small points though, the saints drawings were from the air, the Brighton ones were from Pitchside so impossible to tell from those angles which looks bigger.

 

I admitted from those pictures it is hard to tell. It gives you an idea though, and from that I think the Saints plan looks bigger.

 

Also i'm pretty sure that the maximum St Marys can be expanded to is 44k.

 

"Pretty sure" based on what? These plans by Saints weren't done in 2001, how would Cowen or Lowe know what Cortese's architect (probably AFL) could create? The Itchen may be restricted, but in theory why couldn't you put a third tier on the Kingsland?

 

So even if our plans are so much bigger they are a waste of ink and paper as we can only add on 4,000 more seats than Brighton are doing anyway.

 

Brighton aren't expanding to 40k, they are expanding eventually to 30k.

[Matthew Le God]

We can only expand to 44k, so "45k (maybe more)" is bullsh*t from you as usual.

 

See my three questions above.

[capitalsaint]

Which side shall I join?

[krissyboy31]

We can only expand to 44k, so "45k (maybe more)" is bullsh*t from you as usual.

 

Think this is wrong. Foundations were originally put in to allow 4 stand expansion. The Itchen although COULD be expanded because of the current design, with the boxes at the back, would be very expensive and unlikely. However it is my understanding that the rest of the ground can be upgraded to 46k+.

[Turkish]

I admitted from those pictures it is hard to tell. It gives you an idea though, and from that I think the Saints plan looks bigger.

 

 

 

"Pretty sure" based on what? These plans by Saints weren't done in 2001, how would Cowen or Lowe know what Cortese's architect (probably AFL) could create? The Itchen may be restricted, but in theory why couldn't you put a third tier on the Kingsland?

 

 

 

Brighton aren't expanding to 40k, they are expanding eventually to 30k.

 

Based on comments when the stadium was built that it can be expanded by 12,000 if this was nessasary and only 3 of the 4 stands can be expanded.

 

 

As for Brighton the point was you showed us a few pretty pictures of 8,000 or so seats, if we can only expand to 44k then we can only expand by 12,000, 4,000 seats more than them. 12,000- 8,000 = 4,000, yes?

[Turkish]

Think this is wrong. Foundations were originally put in to allow 4 stand expansion. The Itchen although COULD be expanded because of the current design, with the boxes at the back, would be very expensive and unlikely. However it is my understanding that the rest of the ground can be upgraded to 46k+.

 

I stand to be correct and as i said above, it was from memory of when we moved there.

[Sour Mash]

I didn't say i think we will. What i said was IF we only average 28k.

 

Excuses used this season when we've had low attendances have been that we are in a tough economic climate, people struggle to make midweek games, the weather!!, transport issues, can only afford one game in a week, match is on telly, birthdays, holidays, christenings, ticket tax, the cost. Have these problems suddenly disappeared? Are we no longer in tough econmic times? Are no games going to be on the telly this season? Have prices been dramatically reduced and the ticket tax removed?

It's a slightly separate point to the one being discussed here, but I'm not sure how many fans we have that will be happy paying £40+ on a regular basis for their football, I know a lot that aren't.

[Turkish]

See my three questions above.

 

Im still waiting for you to answer which club is the biggest out of Man U and Darlington so dont start demanding answers sunshine.

[Matthew Le God]

How have you arrived at that figure? I think its mathematically impossible to get to that figure given the restraints we know about (8K potentially added to Kingland, 4K to each of Chapel and Northam) and the limited information in the design.

 

32k

7k on Kingland

3k on Chapel

3k on Northam

 

= 45k

 

As I said "maybe more", so could be an extra 3k you talked about (split over the three stands) taking it to 48k.

Edited 20 June, 2012 by Matthew Le God

[Matthew Le God]

Im still waiting for you to answer which club is the biggest out of Man U and Darlington so dont start demanding answers sunshine.

 

Man Utd are bigger than Darlington. Happy?

 

Now answer my questions.

[JPTCount]

I didn't say i think we will. What i said was IF we only average 28k.

 

Excuses used this season when we've had low attendances have been that we are in a tough economic climate, people struggle to make midweek games, the weather!!, transport issues, can only afford one game in a week, match is on telly, birthdays, holidays, christenings, ticket tax, the cost. Have these problems suddenly disappeared? Are we no longer in tough econmic times? Are no games going to be on the telly this season? Have prices been dramatically reduced and the ticket tax removed?

 

surely the biggest factor would be the division we are in, I think there's enough evidence to suggest that the lower the league the lower the attendance. watching us play mk dons is less of a draw than watching us play city, I cant even name a dons player.

 

although if something extravagant were too were to happen while we were in a lower league, like getting utd in the cup, an epl promotion party, or a trip to Wembley, I'm sure we could sell 32k+ tickets.

 

and imo if we were a top 10 club in the epl, we could attract 40k+ regardless of whether it's against Swansea or city, like other top 10 clubs do

[Turkish]

It's a slightly separate point to the one being discussed here, but I'm not sure how many fans we have that will be happy paying £40+ on a regular basis for their football, I know a lot that aren't.

 

Tens of thousands according to MLG. The reality of course is somewhat different. Like you, i know quite a few who wont be paying that much. personally for me £40 a game is my benchmark, when it gets over that i wont go regularly anymore, unless its to watch us challenging for the Premier league title!

[Turkish]

Man Utd are bigger than Darlington. Happy?

 

Now answer my questions.

 

How did you reach that conclusion? What factors did you take into account?

[Matthew Le God]

Tens of thousands according to MLG. The reality of course is somewhat different. Like you, i know quite a few who wont be paying that much. personally for me £40 a game is my benchmark, when it gets over that i wont go regularly anymore, unless its to watch us challenging for the Premier league title!

 

Remember everyone, this is the man that says he couldn't find a single person that wanted to go to a Saints game once it had sold out. Hard to take seriously anyone that believes that line of logic.

[Thedelldays]

Tens of thousands according to MLG. The reality of course is somewhat different. Like you, i know quite a few who wont be paying that much. personally for me £40 a game is my benchmark, when it gets over that i wont go regularly anymore, unless its to watch us challenging for the Premier league title!

 

Don't forget now, Every single prem game is easily available to stream on the net. Which I don't recall was the case 10 years ago

[Turkish]

surely the biggest factor would be the division we are in, I think there's enough evidence to suggest that the lower the league the lower the attendance. watching us play mk dons is less of a draw than watching us play city, I cant even name a dons player.

 

although if something extravagant were too were to happen while we were in a lower league, like getting utd in the cup, an epl promotion party, or a trip to Wembley, I'm sure we could sell 32k+ tickets.

 

and imo if we were a top 10 club in the epl, we could attract 40k+ regardless of whether it's against Swansea or city, like other top 10 clubs do

 

Maybe it will. But the factors that stopped people going last season still exist, do they not?

 

I am not saying we should never ever expand, all i am saying is that it'd be better to make sure we can fill it first before spending millions on expanding it. We do this by filling what we have every week and by turning people away. Demand outstripping supply.

[Turkish]

Remember everyone, this is the man that says he couldn't find a single person that wanted to go to a Saints game once it had sold out. Hard to take seriously anyone that believes that line of logic.

 

I never said that MLG, stop making things up. I said we werent turning thousands of people away every week.

[Matthew Le God]

How did you reach that conclusion? What factors did you take into account?

 

An ad hoc weighted system of recent generations of attendances, league and cup performance, population size and infrastructure. Which is all a "who is the bigger club?" debate can ever be. It is all very arbitrary and subjective.