Our Future? Stadium Expansion Proposal on Season Ticket DVD

[SaintBobby]

MLG has been v quiet recently.

 

Just saying.....

[CB Fry]

That's how I see it. There is definitely potential for growth (no matter what the dell brains on here say) but it will take a sustained period of success.

 

The guy you quoted has said we shouldn't even consider it until we've finished top five twice...well I think that is far closer to the "Dell-sized mentality" view than the views of MLG and the "visionaries" who say we need to expand now, and fill it by slashing prices because that's what Bayern Munich and easyjet do.

 

The first line of Melmacian Saint's post is the Dell-sized mentality in a nutshell and is spot on.

 

If you can find any "Dell-sized" contributor (Me/Kraken/Turkish/TCM/Hypo/any nornal human) saying we should never expand ever then well done, but you won't.

Edited 12 October, 2012 by CB Fry

[Frank's cousin]

The guy you quoted has said we shouldn't even consider it until we've finished top five twice...well I think that is far closer to the "Dell-sized mentality" view than the views of MLG and the "visionaries" who say we need to expand now, and fill it by slashing prices because that's what Bayern Munich and easyjet do.

 

The first line of Melmacian Saint's post is the Dell-sized mentality in a nutshell and is spot on.

 

If you can find any "Dell-sized" contributor (Me/Kraken/Turkish/TCM/Hypo/any nornal human) saying we should never expand ever then well done, but you won't.

 

You see Fry, my gripe was not that your opinion was without logic, merit or common sense - but the way in which you were so dismissive of discussing 'hyperthetical' alternatives that might be workable...

[Turkish]

You see Fry' date=' my gripe was not that your opinion was without logic, merit or common sense - but the way in which you were so dismissive of discussing 'hyperthetical' alternatives that might be workable...[/quote']

 

I think you should go back the drawing board with your workable alternative of slashing, err I mean dramatically reducing prices like Bayern Munich do though Frankie Boy, as that was shown up last week as being completely ridiculous.

[Frank's cousin]

I think you should go back the drawing board with your workable alternative of slashing, err I mean dramatically reducing prices like Bayern Munich do, as that was shown up last week as being completely ridiculous.

 

Only in your head... but forget it - its gone on too long and there is simply no point in any of it if its just to esure you can get in your daily dose of **** take badly disguised as opinion...

[Turkish]

Only in your head... but forget it - its gone on too long and there is simply no point in any of it if its just to esure you can get in your daily dose of **** take badly disguised as opinion...

 

Not really in my head was it. You admitted yourself if we expand and offered slashed, err I mean dramatically reduced tickets prices, you were clueless as to knowing how we could make sure these tickets only went to people that can't afford it at the moment. the ones you want to attract and not current match goers taking advantage of cheaper tickets, moving seat and leaving their unaffordable seats empty. Thereby they are all taking all the cheaper seats paying £200 a season less, their more expensive seats are now empty and still too expensive for those that can't afford it, our crowds stay the same, revenue goes down as existing match goers are now paying less and we have 8,000 new seats empty and £20m worth of debt. It's not p*ss taking, You don't seem to like it and had no answers when the huge holes in your brilliant Bayern Munich model were shown to you, so that is what you resorted to calling it.

[CB Fry]

Quick Frank, start accusing others of being "negative". It's basically all you've left because your Bayern price slash is in tatters.

[Turkish]

Quick Frank, start accusing others of being "negative". It's basically all you've left because your Bayern price slash is in tatters.

 

Tsk Fry. It's not price slash, that would be ridiculous. It's dramatically reduced prices, There is a big difference.

[CB Fry]

You see Fry' date=' my gripe was not that your opinion was without logic, merit or common sense - but the way in which you were so dismissive of discussing 'hyperthetical' alternatives that might be workable...[/quote']

 

PS. It's not workable.

[Wes Tender]

Let's face it, catchment base expansion in the South is limited and we face tough competition from the more successful, mainstream London clubs which even for people from around Hampshire look a better shout for a football day out than St.Mary's (not looking at Arsenal and Chelsea only- WHU and Tottenham certainly fit the category). Unless we can reach a position that gets us more mainstream attention and puts us in competition with them (ala Tottenham in recent years), we will not be able to attract many more people to the cause, be it ST holders or just supporters who come once every other month/semester.

 

We were close to achieving that position in 2003 before our post-Strachan managerial suicide bombing. And we are now coming from quite a distance to catch up.

 

 

Whereas I agree that the time to expand will be when we regularly sell out the current stadium capacity, I'm afraid that your remarks about the catchment area are flawed and indeed, in my opinion, contradictory.

 

Apparently potential fans for us locally, prefer to spend their money on getting up to London to watch not only the glory teams like Chelsea and Arsenal, but also Tottenham and even West Ham. And yet it doesn't seem to click that if they are followers of those teams, they somehow won't find their way to see them play here, much more locally. And if they do, then that is immediately four matches that ought normally to be sell outs, before you consider the other glory teams coming here. And when those four London teams you mention are playing away up north somewhere and they fancy going to a game, do they follow them up north, or do they come here?

[Wes Tender]

PS. It's not workable.

 

PS. In your opinion.

[Turkish]

/\ well they don't seem to be doing it at the moment when this could be their first chance to see premier league football locally in 7 years, so the answer seems to be, no, they won't come here when their team are playing away.

[The Kraken]

Whereas I agree that the time to expand will be when we regularly sell out the current stadium capacity, I'm afraid that your remarks about the catchment area are flawed and indeed, in my opinion, contradictory.

 

Apparently potential fans for us locally, prefer to spend their money on getting up to London to watch not only the glory teams like Chelsea and Arsenal, but also Tottenham and even West Ham. And yet it doesn't seem to click that if they are followers of those teams, they somehow won't find their way to see them play here, much more locally. And if they do, then that is immediately four matches that ought normally to be sell outs, before you consider the other glory teams coming here. And when those four London teams you mention are playing away up north somewhere and they fancy going to a game, do they follow them up north, or do they come here?

 

I'm not sure I understand your first point, could you clarify please. Are you saying attendances for the West Ham and Tottenham games would be boosted by having lots of away fans in the home end?

 

I think I understand your second point, that with a bigger ground West Ham and Tottenham fans who live locally will obviously adopt Saints as their second team, which I disagree with (certainly for any significant size of extra fans anyway).

[tajjuk]

I honestly think that stadium expansion should not be on our agenda until we have proved as a club that we have progressed further than ever before, and that right now means achieving at least 2 seasons in the top 5 in close succession (not immediate though) and getting some Euro football under our belt, which is still very far away from where we stand.

 

Let's face it, catchment base expansion in the South is limited and we face tough competition from the more successful, mainstream London clubs which even for people from around Hampshire look a better shout for a football day out than St.Mary's (not looking at Arsenal and Chelsea only- WHU and Tottenham certainly fit the category). Unless we can reach a position that gets us more mainstream attention and puts us in competition with them (ala Tottenham in recent years), we will not be able to attract many more people to the cause, be it ST holders or just supporters who come once every other month/semester.

 

We were close to achieving that position in 2003 before our post-Strachan managerial suicide bombing. And we are now coming from quite a distance to catch up.

 

I'd say that currently our regular match-attending fan base stands at 26-27k. Alongside the performance standard I mentioned, we need to be scoring regular near or sellouts at SMS (big 4 games not enough) like we did at the Dell to make an expanded stadium a wise and assertive shout.

 

Whilst I agree with most of this I disagree on the catchment area. I think as a club we are in one the best situations catchment wise and don't think we are competing with the London clubs. Hampshire alone has £1.7 million people, the nearest football club and the only real alternative in Hampshire is Portsmouth. They are currently nowhere near us and I suspect (if they survive) they are at least 5 years away from competing with us on a similar level (even if we go backwards). Even if we go down this year, Portsmouth aren't coming up and they are more likely to get relegated (especially if Appleton has some sense and goes to Bolton) You then have at least an hour to the likes of Brighton, Reading, Bristol. There is no competing club in the west country. In the crowded British Isles that's about as big as unchallenged catchment area you are going to get. Look at London, the Midlands, the North West etc. You have 4 or 5 premiership or championship clubs in competing in an area smaller than we have where there are only two clubs. Yes you will always get Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool and Manc fans round here but they will never go to games anyway, not regularly. They are not the fans we are competing for. I have no doubts that with a successful football club the area could support a 40-50k stadium.

 

We are not however a successful football club, we need to be premiership established and be show casing top players. We are on our way to this and the club's ambitions match it but there is no point doing it now. I would also say that having an improved and stable economy would also help, we are probably 5+ years away from that.

[The Kraken]

Whilst I agree with most of this I disagree on the catchment area. I think as a club we are in one the best situations catchment wise and don't think we are competing with the London clubs. Hampshire alone has £1.7 million people, the nearest football club and the only real alternative in Hampshire is Portsmouth.

 

This is simply wrong on more than one level. Hampshire is very, very different to Southampton, with many north Hampshire residents closer to Reading than to Saints. And there are swathes of north and north-east Hampshire which are geographically closer to West London than they are to St. Mary's.

[Turkish]

I'm not sure I understand your first point, could you clarify please. Are you saying attendances for the West Ham and Tottenham games would be boosted by having lots of away fans in the home end?

 

I think I understand your second point, that with a bigger ground West Ham and Tottenham fans who live locally will obviously adopt Saints as their second team, which I disagree with (certainly for any significant size of extra fans anyway).

 

I think what he's saying is we can fill a bigger stadium by filling it with away fans in the home ends and hoping when London teams are away a lot of their fans decide to come and see us instead. That does seem to be it, which may I say is a quite brilliant business plan.

Edited 12 October, 2012 by Turkish

[Turkish]

Whilst I agree with most of this I disagree on the catchment area. I think as a club we are in one the best situations catchment wise and don't think we are competing with the London clubs. Hampshire alone has £1.7 million people, the nearest football club and the only real alternative in Hampshire is Portsmouth. They are currently nowhere near us and I suspect (if they survive) they are at least 5 years away from competing with us on a similar level (even if we go backwards). Even if we go down this year, Portsmouth aren't coming up and they are more likely to get relegated (especially if Appleton has some sense and goes to Bolton) You then have at least an hour to the likes of Brighton, Reading, Bristol. There is no competing club in the west country. In the crowded British Isles that's about as big as unchallenged catchment area you are going to get. Look at London, the Midlands, the North West etc. You have 4 or 5 premiership or championship clubs in competing in an area smaller than we have where there are only two clubs. Yes you will always get Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool and Manc fans round here but they will never go to games anyway, not regularly. They are not the fans we are competing for. I have no doubts that with a successful football club the area could support a 40-50k stadium.

 

We are not however a successful football club, we need to be premiership established and be show casing top players. We are on our way to this and the club's ambitions match it but there is no point doing it now. I would also say that having an improved and stable economy would also help, we are probably 5+ years away from that.

 

How many people in Basingstoke do for example, support Saints compared to London clubs and Reading?

[Saint Garrett]

I live in Basingstoke. I know about 4 or 5 other people who also live in Basingstoke and support Southampton.

 

In my close group of friends there is me, 8 west ham fans, and 1 chelsea fan.

[Turkish]

I live in Basingstoke. I know about 4 or 5 other people who also live in Basingstoke and support Southampton.

 

In my close group of friends there is me, 8 west ham fans, and 1 chelsea fan.

 

So quite a minority then. When I worked in Basingstoke most locals supported London clubs or Man U and Liverpool. Your local stats back this up. It's probably to say based on this northern Hampshire is as much, if not moreso a London club catchment area than a Southampton one.

[CB Fry]

PS. In your opinion.

 

 

 

Well, yes. It's a internet forum. What were you expecting?

 

PS. I am right.

[tajjuk]

This is simply wrong on more than one level. Hampshire is very, very different to Southampton, with many north Hampshire residents closer to Reading than to Saints. And there are swathes of north and north-east Hampshire which are geographically closer to West London than they are to St. Mary's.

 

First off that's not really true, Basingstoke is north east hampshire for example is still closer to Southampton than say Chelsea. Secondly you have missed the point completely. The 1.7 million was just to illustrate that there are a lot of people around the South Coast, yeh some might be closer to Reading (which is just about on par with us club size), some might be a bit closer to London but like I said name me a smaller club like us that has access to so many fans without a bigger club close to them?

 

The distance between The Reebok Stadium and Old Trafford is just 17 miles. The distance between Wolves and Villa is about 15 miles, the distance between St James Park and The Stadium of Light is just 10 miles. We are 80 miles from the likes of Chelsea and Arsenal, 50 miles from Reading, even 20 miles from Pompey. If you look at the current premiership clubs, there aren't many that don't have another premiership club within 50 miles, Stoke maybe, Norwich, Swansea.

 

http://www.sportmapworld.com/map/soccer/england/fa-premier-league/

 

I think that map illustrates my point well. Lots of potential population to tap into if we grow as a club and about the best you are get in the UK. Far better opportunity to grow compared to similar size clubs like Wigan or West Brom or Fulham.

[Saint Garrett]

Reading (which is just about on par with us club size),

Don't ever say that ever again.

 

Kind regards

 

SG

[tajjuk]

So quite a minority then. When I worked in Basingstoke most locals supported London clubs or Man U and Liverpool. Your local stats back this up. It's probably to say based on this northern Hampshire is as much, if not moreso a London club catchment area than a Southampton one.

 

 

A huge statistical analysis there I have loads of mates who are Liverpool fans that all live pretty much next to Southampton, doesn't mean it's a catchment area for Liverpool. Like I said lots of potential to tap into fans if we grow as a club, remember we haven't been in the prem for a while, nor have we ever been that big a club. If we want to pick up new fans some of them will be glory fans.

 

Don't ever say that ever again.

 

Kind regards

 

SG

 

It's true don;t delude yourself, we are a slightly bigger club but not by much.

Edited 12 October, 2012 by tajjuk

[Sour Mash]

First off that's not really true, Basingstoke is north east hampshire for example is still closer to Southampton than say Chelsea. Secondly you have missed the point completely. The 1.7 million was just to illustrate that there are a lot of people around the South Coast, yeh some might be closer to Reading (which is just about on par with us club size), some might be a bit closer to London but like I said name me a smaller club like us that has access to so many fans without a bigger club close to them?

 

The distance between The Reebok Stadium and Old Trafford is just 17 miles. The distance between Wolves and Villa is about 15 miles, the distance between St James Park and The Stadium of Light is just 10 miles. We are 80 miles from the likes of Chelsea and Arsenal, 50 miles from Reading, even 20 miles from Pompey. If you look at the current premiership clubs, there aren't many that don't have another premiership club within 50 miles, Stoke maybe, Norwich, Swansea.

 

http://www.sportmapworld.com/map/soccer/england/fa-premier-league/

 

I think that map illustrates my point well. Lots of potential population to tap into if we grow as a club and about the best you are get in the UK. Far better opportunity to grow compared to similar size clubs like Wigan or West Brom or Fulham.

Two points - Firstly your comparison to the North-West of England isn't great; it is much more of a footballing area than large parts of Hampshire. Secondly, if there are so many people keen to watch football at St Marys, where have they been this season?

[tajjuk]

Two points - Firstly your comparison to the North-West of England isn't great; it is much more of a footballing area than large parts of Hampshire. Secondly, if there are so many people keen to watch football at St Marys, where have they been this season?

 

FFS, I didn't compare us to the North West of England I pointed out there are a lot of clubs in a small geographical area and some of them are huge like Liverpool, Man Utd, man City and Everton, it therefore makes it tough for clubs like Bolton and Wigan to attract new fans because they are so close to these massive clubs, similar problems for the likes of Fulham and West Brom. It's a problem we don't have. Secondly I'm talking about potential to grow, to attract new fans, to get the kids growing up to not support Liverpool or Chelsea, doesn't happen overnight, we need to grow as a club, improve, get into Europe, have big name players. That's why kids support the likes of Chelsea or Arsenal.

[The Kraken]

First off that's not really true, Basingstoke is north east hampshire for example is still closer to Southampton than say Chelsea.

 

Yes, and Basingstoke is closer to Reading than to Southampton. And the likes of Fleet and Farnborough are closer to Chelsea than they are to Southampton. Plus you perhaps need to read the opinion of the person who lives in Basingstoke to get a fuller picture of the situation.

 

Secondly you have missed the point completely. The 1.7 million was just to illustrate that there are a lot of people around the South Coast, yeh some might be closer to Reading (which is just about on par with us club size), some might be a bit closer to London but like I said name me a smaller club like us that has access to so many fans without a bigger club close to them?

 

Plymouth. By your rationale they should be utterly huge.

 

The distance between The Reebok Stadium and Old Trafford is just 17 miles. The distance between Wolves and Villa is about 15 miles, the distance between St James Park and The Stadium of Light is just 10 miles. We are 80 miles from the likes of Chelsea and Arsenal, 50 miles from Reading, even 20 miles from Pompey. If you look at the current premiership clubs, there aren't many that don't have another premiership club within 50 miles, Stoke maybe, Norwich, Swansea.

 

http://www.sportmapworld.com/map/soccer/england/fa-premier-league/

 

I think that map illustrates my point well. Lots of potential population to tap into if we grow as a club and about the best you are get in the UK. Far better opportunity to grow compared to similar size clubs like Wigan or West Brom or Fulham.

 

I'm not sure why you've turned this into a comparison with other smaller clubs. Back in the Premier League we're already (arguably) back to that size of club, perhaps even bigger than Wigan or West Brom. That's not the point at all (if you're going to accuse others of missing the point entirely).

[Sour Mash]

FFS, I didn't compare us to the North West of England I pointed out there are a lot of clubs in a small geographical area and some of them are huge like Liverpool, Man Utd, man City and Everton, it therefore makes it tough for clubs like Bolton and Wigan to attract new fans because they are so close to these massive clubs, similar problems for the likes of Fulham and West Brom. It's a problem we don't have. Secondly I'm talking about potential to grow, to attract new fans, to get the kids growing up to not support Liverpool or Chelsea, doesn't happen overnight, we need to grow as a club, improve, get into Europe, have big name players. That's why kids support the likes of Chelsea or Arsenal.

I think you'll find you did compare us to the North West of England - to compare something doesn't mean you think they are the same. And for some reason you don't seem to answer my fairly straight forward point - that the population of these areas is made up of a very different demographic and therefore having a much bigger catchment area isn't particularly relevant when considering expansion.

 

Your second point - What do you think would constitute significant enough success on the pitch to bring it sufficient additional support to justify a ground expansion?

[tajjuk]

Yes, and Basingstoke is closer to Reading than to Southampton. And the likes of Fleet and Farnborough are closer to Chelsea than they are to Southampton. Plus you perhaps need to read the opinion of the person who lives in Basingstoke to get a fuller picture of the situation.

 

Fleet? With it's massive population of 30k, not really relevant and it's about 5 miles in it. i think you are somewhat clutching at straws here. Also yes Basingstoke is closer to Reading, but then I have just been told off by suggesting Reading are a similar sized club to us, but I will certainly not say they are a bigger club. Is everyone in Basingstoke a Reading fan? or are they actually Chelsea fans? I was talking about competition from bigger clubs, Reading are not a bigger club.

 

 

 

 

Plymouth. By your rationale they should be utterly huge.

 

 

 

Stupid point, have you been to cornwall?, not that many people live there (population of plymouth is just 71k, the population of Winchester is 40k by comparison) and they are spread out , it's very economically poor, the transport links are poor. Oh and they are in LEAGUE 2.

 

 

I'm not sure why you've turned this into a comparison with other smaller clubs. Back in the Premier League we're already (arguably) back to that size of club, perhaps even bigger than Wigan or West Brom. That's not the point at all (if you're going to accuse others of missing the point entirely).

 

 

 

Bored. Again you have missed the point, it's not a comparison about where the club currently is now, it's about the potential if we continue to improve. We potentially have a large catchment area however to attract more fans we have to become better, which means regularly in the premiership, then getting into Europe, getting some star names etc etc. I used the likes of West Brom, Fulham and Wigan because even if they improved in a similar way they would still have trouble attracting more fans because they are competing with already established big clubs.

 

 

I think you'll find you did compare us to the North West of England - to compare something doesn't mean you think they are the same. And for some reason you don't seem to answer my fairly straight forward point - that the population of these areas is made up of a very different demographic and therefore having a much bigger catchment area isn't particularly relevant when considering expansion.

 

Your second point - What do you think would constitute significant enough success on the pitch to bring it sufficient additional support to justify a ground expansion?

 

No I didn't, I merely compared distances between various football grounds around the country, your point about 'demographics' is not relevant to my point and I'm not sure it's true but that's not what is being discussed.

 

To answer your question see my very first post, you'll notice I agreed with the poster at the top of the page, a couple of seasons of european football or at least in and around the top 6 or 7, i.e something close to say Everton have been over the last few years. I would then think you would start to see some of those Man Utd Chelsea kids at SMS.

Edited 12 October, 2012 by tajjuk

[Cheese on Toast]

Stupid point, have you been to cornwall?,

 

Devon.

[tajjuk]

Devon.

 

Good point, always forget that Plymouth is just in Devon. Devon and Cornwall are still pretty similar though.

[Thedelldays]

Good point, always forget that Plymouth is just in Devon. Devon and Cornwall are still pretty similar though.

 

Not to the people that live there

[The Kraken]

Fleet? With it's massive population of 30k, not really relevant and it's about 5 miles in it. i think you are somewhat clutching at straws here. Also yes Basingstoke is closer to Reading, but then I have just been told off by suggesting Reading are a similar sized club to us, but I will certainly not say they are a bigger club. Is everyone in Basingstoke a Reading fan? or are they actually Chelsea fans? I was talking about competition from bigger clubs, Reading are not a bigger club.

 

You mentioned 1.7M who were definitely closest to Saints. Its actually much less than that, however much you try and argue the case.

 

Stupid point, have you been to cornwall?, not that many people live there (population of plymouth is just 71k, the population of Winchester is 40k by comparison) and they are spread out , it's very economically poor, the transport links are poor. Oh and they are in LEAGUE 2.

 

Ha ha ha, you claim mine as the stupid point yet don't even know what county you're talking about.

 

By the way, Devon and Cornwall combined have a population of 1.65 million; around about the same as Hampshire which you're claiming is a massive factor in enabling us to grow. So which is the stupid point, mine or yours?

[Sour Mash]

No I didn't, I merely compared distances between various football grounds around the country, your point about 'demographics' is not relevant to my point and I'm not sure it's true but that's not what is being discussed.

 

To answer your question see my very first post, you'll notice I agreed with the poster at the top of the page, a couple of seasons of european football or at least in and around the top 6 or 7, i.e something close to say Everton have been over the last few years. I would then think you would start to see some of those Man Utd Chelsea kids at SMS.

Right, so you were making a comparison, got there in the end. And you can't see why an area's demographic would make a difference and is relevant?

 

How many more regular match going fans do you think we'd get from a couple of seasons of finishing 6/7th?

[tajjuk]

Not to the people that live there

 

Demographically they are. Both rural, both rely on the tourism for their economy, both have an 'older' population, both have problems with house prices not matching wages due to holiday and second homes. Both have lower average incomes compared to England as a whole.

[Saint Garrett]

Half of the people who watch Reading are Chelsea fans anyway who can't get to games.

[The Kraken]

Half of the people who watch Reading are Chelsea fans anyway who can't get to games.

 

Maybe there's some mileage to Wes Tender's theory about West Ham and Tottenham fans coming to St. Mary's after all....

[Wurzel]

Oh dear god. We don't need to expand!!

 

We don't sell out and we won't sell out given current prices, the state of economy, free matches to watch online and diving tosser Premiership footballers.

I keep using White Hart Lane as an example, capacity circa 36,000. Spurs ARE a "bigger" club than Saints, that does them fine. Chelsea play in a stadium of about 42,000. That does them fine and they are a massive club - now.

 

It's bad enough having empty seats in a 32,000 seater stadium, expanding is madness. Okay, if we expanded to 36,000 for example, then maybe that might pay off, but any larger would be ridiculous. We'd end up looking like Wigan or Middlesbrough every week with a half empty stadium.

 

There are far more important things to spend the money on - like a defensive back line for a start.

 

Utterly ridiculous at the moment to suggest we need a bigger ground.

 

Yes they are both bigger clubs than us - at the moment - but their present grounds do NOT "do them fine"

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/chelsea/9247695/Chelsea-plan-1-billion-Battersea-stadium-QandA.html

 

http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/spurs/The+Stadium/new-stadium-plans.page

 

Neither sell out every week.

[tajjuk]

You mentioned 1.7M who were definitely closest to Saints. Its actually much less than that, however much you try and argue the case.

 

 

 

Ha ha ha, you claim mine as the stupid point yet don't even know what county you're talking about.

 

By the way, Devon and Cornwall combined have a population of 1.65 million; around about the same as Hampshire which you're claiming is a massive factor in enabling us to grow. So which is the stupid point, mine or yours?

 

I didn't say "1.7M who were definitely closest to Saints", I merely stated the population of Hampshire to illustrate it was a highly populated area. I could include say Dorset which has a population of around 700k, far enough away from London for you? Think there is enough there to balance out the 30k people in Fleet who are 5 miles closer to Chelsea Anyway most of the population of Hampshire is clustered around Southampton and Portsmouth and the M27, North Hampshire is quite sparsely populated hence the massively rural areas and the very small towns like Basingstoke and Andover so I am in fact very much right.

 

Yeh they do over a much much larger area, with a much lower population density as both counties are mainly rural, you are trying to compare one of the most affluent counties in the country with some of the most densely populated areas with two of the poorest and rural. Devon is the 3rd largest county by size, it's nearly twice the area of Hampshire, yet has half the population. That's why it's a stupid point. And as I said the main issue is that Plymouth are in League 2.

 

Right, so you were making a comparison, got there in the end. And you can't see why an area's demographic would make a difference and is relevant?

 

How many more regular match going fans do you think we'd get from a couple of seasons of finishing 6/7th?

 

Was I comparing the North West and Hampshire?, no. I was comparing distances between football clubs. Yes a demographic is relevant but I wasn't commenting on the demographics, however even if people in the North West are more mad about their football then they are in Hampshire why do Bolton and Wigan struggle for attendances? Also on Demographics Hampshire is richer than the north west, in theory the average fan in Hampshire has more cash than the one in Manchester or Bolton.

 

To answer you second question quite a few, personally I agree with others on here, if we had a 40k seat stadium I reckon it would currently sell out for games like Spurs, Utd, Arsenal etc, probably about 8 or 9 of our home games would be sell outs, some like Wigan would be down at 28k, the rest would be somewhere in between. But that's up to the club to see if that's viable and worthwhile.

 

Yes they are both bigger clubs than us - at the moment - but their present grounds do NOT "do them fine"

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/chelsea/9247695/Chelsea-plan-1-billion-Battersea-stadium-QandA.html

 

http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/spurs/The+Stadium/new-stadium-plans.page

 

Neither sell out every week.

 

 

To be fair Spurs and Chelsea are at 99% of attendance pretty much every game. They usually don't sell out because of away fans. However look at Sunderland. The capacity of the stadium of light is 49,000.00. Their last home game against Wigan this season had an attendance of 37, 742. 77% of capacity. Attendance against Man Utd earlier this year 46, 452. I bet they don't regret building the stadium so bi though.

Edited 12 October, 2012 by tajjuk

[The Kraken]

Well you've convinced me. And I think its a shame we've never been able to tap into our massive catchment area in the past. In previous decades when Reading were minnows and Saints were qualifying for Europe, finishing second in the league and what not, well we must have been doing something very wrong to not attract all of Hampshire and beyond to come to watch us. Thankfully that's all about to change this time round.

[Miltonaggro]

Lot of sense being spoken on this thread, and any expansion has to be linked to demand. One variable however that does give a cause for optimism is the response to success - if you look at the three recent cup final appearances, ZDS, FA Cup, and JPT demand has been enormous, far outstripping our usual take up, even with the Mickey Mouse factor in two of those. fair weather fans, of course, potential JCLs if we push on to being competitive in the PL, very possibly...

[tajjuk]

Well you've convinced me. And I think its a shame we've never been able to tap into our massive catchment area in the past. In previous decades when Reading were minnows and Saints were qualifying for Europe, finishing second in the league and what not, well we must have been doing something very wrong to not attract all of Hampshire and beyond to come to watch us. Thankfully that's all about to change this time round.

 

Yeh because the size of the Dell had nothing to do with that Seriously grow up, you run out out of any viable points and just resort to some sarcasm.

[Patrick Bateman]

Having lived in Basingstoke for 3.5 years and now just outside Fleet for 3 years, I can honestly say that it's NOT a catchment for Southampton Football Club. In Basingstoke I saw more Chelsea fans than anything else and similar in Fleet with a large portion of Arsenal "fans" and plenty of skates.

 

Growing numbers of Aldershot fans up here in North Hampshire too.

[The Kraken]

Lot of sense being spoken on this thread, and any expansion has to be linked to demand. One variable however that does give a cause for optimism is the response to success - if you look at the three recent cup final appearances, ZDS, FA Cup, and JPT demand has been enormous, far outstripping our usual take up, even with the Mickey Mouse factor in two of those. fair weather fans, of course, potential JCLs if we push on to being competitive in the PL, very possibly...

 

The question is, and its pretty much impossible to answer right now, how many extra fans will come with some form of success? Forget all the nonsense about catchment area, attracting fans from north Hampshire or whatever. We have a decent fan base already where the core of our fans have and will come from; as encapsulated by the fact that in a 32,000 seater stadium we sell out 2 weeks in advance before the really big games (Man United and Tottenham). So how many extra home tickets could we sell against the likes of these teams? I'd hazard a guess at around 40,000, that's kind of a figure I've always thought is realistically achievable.

 

Now, here's the bit that's especially debatable. Against the top sides, I really don't see a lot of movement in this top figure compared to where Saints are in the league. Whether we are down towards the bottom, mid-table or chasing Europe, I don't think that top figure will move by too much. There'll be some difference of course, but a lot of the casual Saints fans those fixtures attract aren't too dependent (IMO of course) on where we are in the league, more who we are playing. And the draw of seeing a top 5 club at St. Mary's is already a decent one for Saints fans.

 

Where we would see a difference according to league form is in games against the mid-ranked sides, and against the lower ranked sides. Fulham 28K the other day; with a Saints side in the top half and upwards I consider we'd be at least 3,000 or 4,000 above that. Much further? I can't see it myself against the lower sides (and those who don't bring a full away allocation), but against the likes of Everton, Newcastle, Sunderland, then perhaps mid 30s and a tiny bit higher perhaps.

[The Kraken]

Yeh because the size of the Dell had nothing to do with that Seriously grow up, you run out out of any viable points and just resort to some sarcasm.

 

We didn't sell out at the Dell during the times of European qualification so its an entirely valid point. Good smiley though.

[tajjuk]

We didn't sell out at the Dell during the times of European qualification so its an entirely valid point. Good smiley though.

 

Have to take your word for it as I was even 1 at the time, also there are no records of our attendances.

 

Liverpool though in the same season regularly failed to sell out Anfield and they won the league and the European Cup that season so it doesn't really show much. When they played us at home in 1983 their attendance was only 26331, yet home to Man Utd the same season the attendance was 45122. Yet last season they had one their worst seasons for ages and sell out Anfield pretty much every game. So Liverpool at their best didn't sell out yet they do now. We had more fans in league 1 turning up regularly than we did when we were almost winning the league.

 

Clearly what happened nearly 30 years ago doesn't really have much relevance now. Almost a good point though

Edited 12 October, 2012 by tajjuk

[saint si]

The question is, and its pretty much impossible to answer right now, how many extra fans will come with some form of success? Forget all the nonsense about catchment area, attracting fans from north Hampshire or whatever. We have a decent fan base already where the core of our fans have and will come from; as encapsulated by the fact that in a 32,000 seater stadium we sell out 2 weeks in advance before the really big games (Man United and Tottenham). So how many extra home tickets could we sell against the likes of these teams? I'd hazard a guess at around 40,000, that's kind of a figure I've always thought is realistically achievable.

 

Now, here's the bit that's especially debatable. Against the top sides, I really don't see a lot of movement in this top figure compared to where Saints are in the league. Whether we are down towards the bottom, mid-table or chasing Europe, I don't think that top figure will move by too much. There'll be some difference of course, but a lot of the casual Saints fans those fixtures attract aren't too dependent (IMO of course) on where we are in the league, more who we are playing. And the draw of seeing a top 5 club at St. Mary's is already a decent one for Saints fans.

 

Where we would see a difference according to league form is in games against the mid-ranked sides, and against the lower ranked sides. Fulham 28K the other day; with a Saints side in the top half and upwards I consider we'd be at least 3,000 or 4,000 above that. Much further? I can't see it myself against the lower sides (and those who don't bring a full away allocation), but against the likes of Everton, Newcastle, Sunderland, then perhaps mid 30s and a tiny bit higher perhaps.

 

Very reasonable and sensible projections. Clearly ticket price also a factor, but at roughly current prices, these numbers seem about right to me.

 

The question then for debate is whether a business case can be built on these additional attendances. i.e. would a 40k stadium be worthwhile if filled 3-5 times a year when the really big clubs come to town? And a few mid-30s attendances thrown in for good measure.

 

Some say yes, others say no - i'm personally in the "maybe" camp. I don't think it can be ruled out, but i simply don't think we have the information we would need in order to determine whether the business case would fly or not.

 

We need to remember it's more than just ticket price x attendance = revenue. There's a whole load of knock on impacts from getting more people through the turnstiles - food & drink, merchandise, corporate, advertising etc - and these all have an influence. I bet Cortese knows exactly what the average spend per fan, per visit to SMS is today, and what premier league average is, and has a plan to improve it.

 

What is likely is that any stadium expansion won't purely be for the purposes of getting more bums on seats - though that is obviously a big factor. It will also include the opportunity to develop additional revenue streams and more corporate and commercial facilities (to make better use of the place on non-match days).

 

Incidentally, to that end, a lot has been done recently around the club's branding and image. The silver crest on black background is everywhere now; associations with ultra-luxury brands like sun-seeker; even the flight attendant style uniforms in the shop, and for the programme sellers. Cortese is definitely looking to position the club/brand as upmarket and fashionable... i.e. (in his own words) boutique. Any development of the stadium would be in line with these values and with the intention of attracting high spenders (corporate or otherwise).

[Wes Tender]

Maybe there's some mileage to Wes Tender's theory about West Ham and Tottenham fans coming to St. Mary's after all....

 

Well, as you spectacularly failed to comprehend what my point was, it can't really be used to further your argument of another point elsewhere.

 

My point, which was put across in what I had thought was plain English, was that fans of Tottenham, West Ham, Spurs, Arsenal, etc, would come to St Mary's when they were playing us here, if they lived closer to us here than they do to those clubs.

 

Many fans of those clubs in this area are plastics, many of whom have never even seen their team play at their home ground. There is scope for some of them to come here to see their team play, that was the point I was making. It might well be the case that having seen their teams play here on successive years, that they change their allegiances. I know of several anecdotal instances where that has happened, particularly with the younger fans.

 

All this talk about fans in North Hampshire being closer to West London teams is also spurious to an extent, as it is not just a case of proximity, but more ease of access. For example, it is probably far easier to drive down the M3 from Aldershot/Farnham/Fleet/Farnborough, than it is to get to most London Clubs. But apart from those who might go to Reading, there is nothing else available along the South Coast apart from the Skates, Brighton and Bournemouth, all in the lower divisions. The scope for increased support if we do well, is mostly towards the coastline, where the major population areas are concentrated, rather than northwards, where Reading and the London Clubs begin to have more influence.

[Turkish]

Have to take your word for it as I was even 1 at the time, also there are no records of our attendances.

 

Liverpool though in the same season regularly failed to sell out Anfield and they won the league and the European Cup that season so it doesn't really show much. When they played us at home in 1983 their attendance was only 26331, yet home to Man Utd the same season the attendance was 45122.

 

What happened nearly 30 years ago doesn't really have much relevance now.

 

There are records actually. The Dell capacity in our glory years of the early 80s was 24k and our averge crowd was about 18-20k

So what did the Dell have to do with it. why are we going to tap into these tens of thousands of fans with nothig else to do when their team is away on saturday now when we've never done it at anytime in our history?

[Miltonaggro]

The question is, and its pretty much impossible to answer right now, how many extra fans will come with some form of success? Forget all the nonsense about catchment area, attracting fans from north Hampshire or whatever. We have a decent fan base already where the core of our fans have and will come from; as encapsulated by the fact that in a 32,000 seater stadium we sell out 2 weeks in advance before the really big games (Man United and Tottenham). So how many extra home tickets could we sell against the likes of these teams? I'd hazard a guess at around 40,000, that's kind of a figure I've always thought is realistically achievable.

 

Now, here's the bit that's especially debatable. Against the top sides, I really don't see a lot of movement in this top figure compared to where Saints are in the league. Whether we are down towards the bottom, mid-table or chasing Europe, I don't think that top figure will move by too much. There'll be some difference of course, but a lot of the casual Saints fans those fixtures attract aren't too dependent (IMO of course) on where we are in the league, more who we are playing. And the draw of seeing a top 5 club at St. Mary's is already a decent one for Saints fans.

 

Where we would see a difference according to league form is in games against the mid-ranked sides, and against the lower ranked sides. Fulham 28K the other day; with a Saints side in the top half and upwards I consider we'd be at least 3,000 or 4,000 above that. Much further? I can't see it myself against the lower sides (and those who don't bring a full away allocation), but against the likes of Everton, Newcastle, Sunderland, then perhaps mid 30s and a tiny bit higher perhaps.

 

It's a real moot area, and difficult to call. I started supporting Saints (going to games with the old man) in 1975, so a year later the FA Cup and the feel good factor lasted for a decade. At this point we were a much bigger draw than many clubs that are now perceived as 'bigger' than us, whatever that means. I visited relations in Manchester when Keegan signed, went to the local park for a kick around with the cousins and there were local kids wearing Saints shirts. Since it's been up and down, false dawns et al., resurgence of skates, invention of Reading, so it's hard to know what the regional picture is. If we have sustained success I genuinely think we will grow and warrant the expansion level factored in by Barr (Sunderland size), a problem seems to be the fact we are buying raw talent rather than the finished articles, again playing it long rather than instant return. A large chunk of the middle aged fan base have memories of success by blending old with young, Ball with Williams etc. so Owen with Ramirez would have put bums on seats undoubtedly - nothing wrong with that as football is entertainment, but the current model at Saints is evolution not revolution, and evolution by nature can only be seen over time (one local blue dinosaur already out of the food chain, another amoeba fading over the next few seasons)...

[JPTCount]

MLG has been v quiet recently.

 

Just saying.....

 

fm13 alpha testing...?