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Seeing as we are all expecting a few signings do we bring them straight into the starting line up, dropping a player who got us to the premier league? Or do we start with pretty much the same team as this season giving them all the chance to prove themselves?

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Seeing as we are all expecting a few signings do we bring them straight into the starting line up, dropping a player who got us to the premier league? Or do we start with pretty much the same team as this season giving them all the chance to prove themselves?

how did fox, hooiveld, etc get in..?

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If the player we bring in is better than one of our ''current'' starting 11, then they should start.

 

And, you have to assume that the player being bought for Megabucks IS better than what you already have, else, what would be the point of buying him ??

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And, you have to assume that the player being bought for Megabucks IS better than what you already have, else, what would be the point of buying him ??

 

Well, exactly. That's why i've never got this argument about buying ''cover for lambert'' ''cover for Fonte'' etc....they can't just be cover, they need to be better than Lambert and fonte! It's all about evolution...

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Well, exactly. That's why i've never got this argument about buying ''cover for lambert'' ''cover for Fonte'' etc....they can't just be cover, they need to be better than Lambert and fonte! It's all about evolution...

don't always have to be better...different sometimes work

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Well, exactly. That's why i've never got this argument about buying ''cover for lambert'' ''cover for Fonte'' etc....they can't just be cover, they need to be better than Lambert and fonte! It's all about evolution...

 

Not necessarily, could just have potential to be better in the future.

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And, you have to assume that the player being bought for Megabucks IS better than what you already have, else, what would be the point of buying him ??

 

Yet the Mega bucks striker didn't score as many goals as either of our 2 "budget" strikers in the same league last season....

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Funny how we say that as fans and then get upset when a player or manager dumps us for someone else and bang on about loyalty:lol:

 

I think the loyalty comes with honouring contracts and recognising that the full squad is part of an amazing family. But the 18 that show the best form in traning will get the nod to line up on the day. I even think we have moved on from the starting 11 being the 'best' 11 - tactically you may hold your pace back till the second half. The summer signings will have the same benefit as others to impress both in training and in the pre season games.

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Originally Posted by SaintRichmond

 

And, you have to assume that the player being bought for Megabucks IS better than what you already have, else, what would be the point of buying him ??

 

 

 

Yet the Mega bucks striker didn't score as many goals as either of our 2 "budget" strikers in the same league last season....

 

 

Which budget strikers are these then?

 

I can remember Lambert and Sharp playing for us but they both cost significant amounts of money.

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Seeing as we are all expecting a few signings do we bring them straight into the starting line up, dropping a player who got us to the premier league? Or do we start with pretty much the same team as this season giving them all the chance to prove themselves?

 

We introduce them gradually through pre-season. I couldn't care less what anyone did for us last season now, everyone has to prove themselves on a game by game basis, constant evolution.

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Funny how we say that as fans and then get upset when a player or manager dumps us for someone else and bang on about loyalty:lol:

 

We continue to pay them even when they don't contribute to points on the pitch, that's the loyalty they get from having a contract. Beyond that, no obligation.

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Which budget strikers are these then?

 

I can remember Lambert and Sharp playing for us but they both cost significant amounts of money.

 

1 million and 2 million aren't really significant amounts of money in todays footballing world are they? (sad as that is) How J Rod is worth 7 million is beyond me but I reckon it pretty much means his name will be the first one on the team sheet.

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1 million and 2 million aren't really significant amounts of money in todays footballing world are they? (sad as that is) How J Rod is worth 7 million is beyond me but I reckon it pretty much means his name will be the first one on the team sheet.

 

They were at the level at the time

 

Lambert cost is more than the next big three signings that summer... One of which was grant holt

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We continue to pay them even when they don't contribute to points on the pitch, that's the loyalty they get from having a contract. Beyond that, no obligation.

 

I'm not disagreeing that some current players will have to make way. I'm just pointing out that the same people saying get rid of he ain't good enough would be the some people gnashing teeth and blubing about player loyallty if, say, Adam Lallana buggered off to spurs tommorrow.

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Which budget strikers are these then?

 

I can remember Lambert and Sharp playing for us but they both cost significant amounts of money.

 

I think Lambert at £1m can be regarded as "budget" on a Prem scale, even though he was "expensive" in L1. He's about 1/7th the probable cost of Rodriguez anyway.

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I'm not disagreeing that some current players will have to make way. I'm just pointing out that the same people saying get rid of he ain't good enough would be the some people gnashing teeth and blubing about player loyallty if, say, Adam Lallana buggered off to spurs tommorrow.

 

I don't generally believe in those kind of generalisations.

 

:)

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Yes the higher up the league ladder the club goes the more other clubs want us to cough up.

 

I think it's fair to say that Lambert would command significantly more than £1m in transfer fees if he went anywhere at the moment, even considering his age and contract remaining.

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1 million and 2 million aren't really significant amounts of money in todays footballing world are they? (sad as that is) How J Rod is worth 7 million is beyond me but I reckon it pretty much means his name will be the first one on the team sheet.

 

 

 

How many £1m signings were there in L1 that season? Or even last season, or even next season?

 

£2m signings in the Champ are less rare but hardly commonplace and definitely not "budget signings" especially as we signed him and stuck him on the bench for weeks.

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I think Lambert at £1m can be regarded as "budget" on a Prem scale, even though he was "expensive" in L1. He's about 1/7th the probable cost of Rodriguez anyway.

 

 

Well we're not buying him in the prem are we.

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Well we're not buying him in the prem are we.

 

Not sure why that's relevant. He cost 1/7th of the cost of someone we are buying in the Prem, which would imply he's good value, if not necessarily "budget" in comparison.

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Not sure why that's relevant. He cost 1/7th of the cost of someone we are buying in the Prem, which would imply he's good value, if not necessarily "budget" in comparison.

 

I might even be as bold as to say one of the best bargains the club has signed in many a year.

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Not sure why that's relevant. He cost 1/7th of the cost of someone we are buying in the Prem, which would imply he's good value, if not necessarily "budget" in comparison.

 

 

 

He's a good player.

 

League one team doesn't spend seven million pounds on one player.

 

Premier League team does spend seven million pounds on one player.

 

The fact we (may be about to) do the second one does not make our signing of Rickie Lambert some bargain basement steal. Just dopey rewriting of history.

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Pretty sure Harding started a few times at the start of last season, and Fox was brought in slowly. Sure I remember people getting really shirty about Harding being dropped even though we'd been performing so well.

 

Yeah, that's right. Signed 11 August, got on as sub against Millwall and then at Leicester (where he came on for Harding), didn't feature in the League Cup game at Swindon (cup-tied?) and first started in the League on 10 September against Forest.

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He's a good player.

League one team doesn't spend seven million pounds on one player.

Premier League team does spend seven million pounds on one player.

The fact we (may be about to) do the second one does not make our signing of Rickie Lambert some bargain basement steal. Just dopey rewriting of history.

 

I don't know why you want to add a relative comparison about the club's status when the only empirical measure in the discussion is the cost of signing the player.

 

We're not in League One but that's completely irrelevant to any discussion of the cost of the player, because it has nothing to do with the cost of the player.

 

Or to put it in terms you would understand :

 

Seven million is seven times more than one million. Seven times.

 

Seven. Seven times.

 

Seven times more. That makes seven times less GOOD VALUE.

 

Compared to one million. Which is LESS.

 

Seven times less. Budget. Etc.

 

© CB Fry 2008-2012

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I don't know why you want to add a relative comparison about the club's status when the only empirical measure in the discussion is the cost of signing the player.

 

We're not in League One but that's completely irrelevant to any discussion of the cost of the player, because it has nothing to do with the cost of the player.

 

Or to put it in terms you would understand :

 

Seven million is seven times more than one million. Seven times.

 

Seven. Seven times.

 

Seven times more. That makes seven times less GOOD VALUE.

 

Compared to one million. Which is LESS.

 

Seven times less. Budget. Etc.

 

© CB Fry 2008-2012

 

Rickie Lambert before we signed him:

- Overweight and unfit

- Scored goals in lower levels but hadn't played above L1

- Patchy career in a number of positions

- Released from a few clubs

- Approaching 30 years old

 

Jay Rod now (i.e. before we sign him!):

- In his early 20s

- Key player for good club over several seasons in the 2nd tier

- Good physical fitness

- England youth player

- Scored goals consistently in 2nd tier

- Potential to improve

 

Obviously I might be being a bit harsh on Rickie there as I think he's a fantastic player now, but you can't really deny that without his goalscoring record in L1 he wouldn't be an attractive option. Thankfully we moulded him into a cracking player, harnessing his abilities. Now Jay Rod is already an impressive player at a young age in an established team. We obviously have quite a bit of cash being in the Prem now, which will influence what clubs want from us in terms of cash for players. Jay is being chased by a few other Prem clubs, as well as a few ambitious Champ clubs, which will drive his price up again. Burnley will also want to use his transfer fee to invest in the playing squad so that they can push for promotion and hold onto their other key players. I think the most important factor in the price we're being quoted is that he's young and BRITISH. If this was a young Italian striker from a team in the Italian 2nd tier we wouldn't be quoted £7m for him. British talent is expensive, and unfortunately if you want to sign quality young British players you have to pay a premium now.

 

I'm not saying that we should expect to pay over the odds for players now we're in the situation that we are in, because Cortese won't run a business like that. However, the fact that he's put £7m on the table shows that we're thinking about the long-term stability of the club. We're not going to pocket most of the promotion cash and rely on loans and freebies like Blackpool did, we're going to build for the future and establish ourselves again as a Prem team. Sometimes you've got to invest heavily if you want a big return.

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Lambert for £1m when buying from legue 1 to the prem is nothing

 

 

Buying lambert for £1m in league 1 to go to league 1 is massive money

 

His expectations in league 1 would be what Rooney has in the prem.

 

If we had signed him straight to the prem. he would have been a bench player.

 

Throw in the absurd idea that we would have paid £7m for a player when we were in league 1. That would carry a completely different value-expectations

Edited by Thedelldays
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I don't know why you want to add a relative comparison about the club's status when the only empirical measure in the discussion is the cost of signing the player.

 

We're not in League One but that's completely irrelevant to any discussion of the cost of the player, because it has nothing to do with the cost of the player.

 

Or to put it in terms you would understand :

 

Seven million is seven times more than one million. Seven times.

 

Seven. Seven times.

 

Seven times more. That makes seven times less GOOD VALUE.

 

Compared to one million. Which is LESS.

 

Seven times less. Budget. Etc.

 

© CB Fry 2008-2012

 

 

 

Nice pastiche.

 

The point is we're not buying RL now for one million pounds. If we were then yes, that's a budget signing.

 

We're also not buying a 30yr old for seven million pounds either. Bad value.

 

What we are doing is buying a 22 year old with bags of potential and wanted by several clubs and sold under duress by his current club for seven million pounds. We wouldn't have done that as a L1 or champ club.

 

If the league a team is in has no impact on the cost of the player, how come league one teams aren't spending seven million quid on players all the time?

 

Pretty simple really. I'll type it out slower for you if you like.

Edited by CB Fry
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Well, exactly. That's why i've never got this argument about buying ''cover for lambert'' ''cover for Fonte'' etc....they can't just be cover, they need to be better than Lambert and fonte! It's all about evolution...

 

 

I get your point Clarkey, but a lot of this discussion is pure semantics.

If we got someone BETTER than Lambert we'd play them instead, I always read "cover " as someone capable of filling the gap if /when necessary. In the event of a serious injury problem for RL, who do we have that could come and fill the gap?

 

The same situation will occur next season with the goalkeepers. Obviously everyone sees KD as the first choice (and perhaps rightly so) but we must have an experienced Prem. keeper able to step in at a minutes notice.

We can't have the "Bart scenario " again.

Cover really means a viable alternative on the bench. It works in most other positions but RL really is an exceptional case, and it's stupid to ignore the problem and hope it doesn't occur.

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I don't know why you want to add a relative comparison about the club's status when the only empirical measure in the discussion is the cost of signing the player.

We're not in League One but that's completely irrelevant to any discussion of the cost of the player, because it has nothing to do with the cost of the player. © CB Fry 2008-2012

 

To the 9 ..

 

As CB Fry has said - I think you're getting hung up on the cost compared with the potential that we are buying.

£1 million for an unfit Lambert looked a "chancey deal" - at that time.

Better fitness, better service and better confidence has made RL the player he is today.

At 30 he may have a short Prem. career in front of him. We 'd all like to see him do well, but if he doesn't carry on as before we have a major 4-5 month problem before the next transfer window, by which time we could be anchored at the bottom if we have a run of poor results.

 

At some future time RL will lose his form, and his place and we need someone capable to take over - at that time. Jay Rod maybe a gamble, but his progress so far has impressed SFC that he may be come that person.

Getting someone like (JayRod £7 mill.) may sound a lot -- for a 21 y.o. Npc player, but we are buying his potential to become an even better player than he is today.

Had he been OOC or Bosman he might have come for nothing. Such transfers are down to good timing, and good luck.

(T.Lee was such a transfer with no transfer fee ).

 

People were anxious when we sold strat striker Martin Chivers for a record fee in 1967..but teenage Mick Channon was on the way up and proved (in time) to be more than a suitable replacement.

 

Looking at our own situation , who would have valued 16 year old Theo Walcott at £10 million whe he was in our Reserve side?...or Alex O-C. who went from Academy to Premiership inside one season. IMO ..the £15 million fee may well look like a real bargain for Arsenal if he continues to develop as he had recently.

Edited by david in sweden
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I don't know why you want to add a relative comparison about the club's status when the only empirical measure in the discussion is the cost of signing the player.

 

We're not in League One but that's completely irrelevant to any discussion of the cost of the player, because it has nothing to do with the cost of the player.

 

Or to put it in terms you would understand :

 

Seven million is seven times more than one million. Seven times.

 

Seven. Seven times.

 

Seven times more. That makes seven times less GOOD VALUE.

 

Compared to one million. Which is LESS.

 

Seven times less. Budget. Etc.

 

© CB Fry 2008-2012

 

Nice pastiche.

 

The point is we're not buying RL now for one million pounds. If we were then yes, that's a budget signing.

 

We're also not buying a 30yr old for seven million pounds either. Bad value.

 

What we are doing is buying a 22 year old with bags of potential and wanted by several clubs and sold under duress by his current club for seven million pounds. We wouldn't have done that as a L1 or champ club.

 

If the league a team is in has no impact on the cost of the player, how come league one teams aren't spending seven million quid on players all the time?

 

Pretty simple really. I'll type it out slower for you if you like.

 

Right as I was comparing RL and Sharp with Jrod and how much each of them cost and how well they did in the same league last season and not with what league we were in when we signed said player I go with the 9 for the win:)

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To the 9 ..

 

As CB Fry has said - I think you're getting hung up on the cost compared with the potential that we are buying.

£1 million for an unfit Lambert looked a "chancey deal" - at that time.

Better fitness, better service and better confidence has made RL the player he is today.

At 30 he may have a short Prem. career in front of him. We 'd all like to see him do well, but if he doesn't carry on as before we have a major 4-5 month problem before the next transfer window, by which time we could be anchored at the bottom if we have a run of poor results.

 

At some future time RL will lose his form, and his place and we need someone capable to take over - at that time. Jay Rod maybe a gamble, but his progress so far has impressed SFC that he may be come that person.

Getting someone like (JayRod £7 mill.) may sound a lot -- for a 21 y.o. Npc player, but we are buying his potential to become an even better player than he is today.

Had he been OOC or Bosman he might have come for nothing. Such transfers are down to good timing, and good luck.

(T.Lee was such a transfer with no transfer fee ).

 

People were anxious when we sold strat striker Martin Chivers for a record fee in 1967..but teenage Mick Channon was on the way up and proved (in time) to be more than a suitable replacement.

 

Looking at our own situation , who would have valued 16 year old Theo Walcott at £10 million whe he was in our Reserve side?...or Alex O-C. who went from Academy to Premiership inside one season. IMO ..the £15 million fee may well look like a real bargain for Arsenal if he continues to develop as he had recently.

 

No it didn't it looked like the clever idea of buying the leagues top scorer didn't look risky at all.

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Right as I was comparing RL and Sharp with Jrod and how much each of them cost and how well they did in the same league last season and not with what league we were in when we signed said player I go with the 9 for the win:)

 

 

 

How much did J Rod cost Burnley then? Because we didn't sign him last season and he didn't play for us last season.

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How we do it is by playing the strongest team on the opening day,having brought them to peak fitness pre- season and winning and continue to win games and not let the heads go down as we are being kind to players who did a job in previous leagues and after an hour and being 2 goals down and we are flogging a dead horse bring on someone to pick up the pieces and hope we will scrape a draw. If we don't go out every game with conviction and belief that we can hold our own in the premiership I fear we may struggle. I very much look forward to the season and the new players who will come in and strengthen the squad that we have ,who will only get better playing with other talented footballers,it will be a rollercoaster but what a ride we will have !

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We're also not buying a 30yr old for seven million pounds either. Bad value.

 

What we are doing is buying a 22 year old with bags of potential and wanted by several clubs and sold under duress by his current club for seven million pounds. We wouldn't have done that as a L1 or champ club.

 

If the league a team is in has no impact on the cost of the player, how come league one teams aren't spending seven million quid on players all the time?

 

Pretty simple really. I'll type it out slower for you if you like.

 

How can you say that Lambert would be bad value at 30 years old for £7 million? He might well carry on firing in the goals in the Premiership at a better rate than Grant Holt did for the next 5 years.

 

Conversely, J Rod might not realise his potential and become a waste of £7 million.

 

So talk of value is only possible with the benefit of hindsight, weighing up what they achieved against what they cost, or against what their sell-on fee might be.

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How can you say that Lambert would be bad value at 30 years old for £7 million? He might well carry on firing in the goals in the Premiership at a better rate than Grant Holt did for the next 5 years.

 

Conversely, J Rod might not realise his potential and become a waste of £7 million.

 

So talk of value is only possible with the benefit of hindsight, weighing up what they achieved against what they cost, or against what their sell-on fee might be.

 

 

 

I think you'll find it is The9 looking at value based on price not me.

 

I very much doubt Saints will be spending seven mil on any 30 year olds this close season.

 

But thanks for some of your usual obvious "insights" delivered in your typical tediously patronising way.

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I think you'll find it is The9 looking at value based on price not me.

 

I very much doubt Saints will be spending seven mil on any 30 year olds this close season.

 

But thanks for some of your usual obvious "insights" delivered in your typical tediously patronising way.

 

And thanks for your usual condescending, sarcastic and supercilious response.

 

So it wasn't you who stated that paying £7 million for a 30 year old (presumably your inferred example is Lambert) was bad value? So hands off any club thinking that they could buy him from us for under £7 million, CB Fry is here to tell you that the deal would represent bad value. They'd be much better off spending their money on a much younger player with potential.

 

And I see that as usual you do not choose to debate the point I made; that it is only possible to view whether the signing-on fee can be seen as value for money in retrospect, depending on performance after the signing, or a decent profit from selling on in the future. Or is that point (which contradicts what you said), not worthy of a reply because it is the obvious "insight" ?

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And thanks for your usual condescending, sarcastic and supercilious response.

 

So it wasn't you who stated that paying £7 million for a 30 year old (presumably your inferred example is Lambert) was bad value? So hands off any club thinking that they could buy him from us for under £7 million, CB Fry is here to tell you that the deal would represent bad value. They'd be much better off spending their money on a much younger player with potential.

 

And I see that as usual you do not choose to debate the point I made; that it is only possible to view whether the signing-on fee can be seen as value for money in retrospect, depending on performance after the signing, or a decent profit from selling on in the future. Or is that point (which contradicts what you said), not worthy of a reply because it is the obvious "insight" ?

 

 

 

The debate is about Lambert being a "budget striker" compared to JR. Not about other clubs buying Rickie. If you want to wet your pants about that go ahead but I'm not in the slightest bit interested.

 

And if it shuts you up, I completely agree with you. Value is decided retrospectively, but you can still assess risk up front.

 

My point was and is that comparing our £1m L1 signing of RL three years ago with signing JR now is ridiculous. And saying one is better value than the other before one of them has even signed is also madness.

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