Watching panorama...

[View From The Top]

I'm sure they'd be reporting on marxist-driven football hooliganism if only it existed.

 

Livorno.

 

Went to one of their games against Lazio and it was mayhem on a scale like I've never seen.

 

Marxist left v Neo Nazi right.

[Sour Mash]

I feel it wouldn't actually be misleading, provided it was based on actual footage and in context, which the 2012 report was.

 

Have you not ? There are a number of "they're not nazis, they've just got an itchy armpit/doing a zany arm dance" type responses on here, conveniently ignoring their proximity to swastikas and anti-Jewish slogans, linked to the violent attacks on those with different coloured skin also shown in the documentary. Even if they're not doing 100% identical nazi salutes, their intention is to present themselves as affiliated with those ideas. Same as the Lazio fascists, who have a mildly different political agenda, but it's not like fascism and nazism haven't been linked before.

 

And I know Griffo's just parroting what some not very rounded grown ups have told him, but he really needs a context for all of his wannabe hoolie tendencies before he gets himself into some actual trouble, rather than just swallowing whatever bullsh*t some thicky "Der tukkin ur jahbs" bloke told him during "This Is England" once.

 

Mocking people for being bothered by this kind of stuff just makes it more difficult to prevent, and are (Godwin's rule is difficult to avoid in this context) exactly the sort of warped justifications encouraged by Hitler's propaganda to get support and acceptance from the masses for his abhorrent policies. Not surprisingly there's a context of ignorance, intolerance and poverty underpinning the whole thing - it's always easier to recruit the disenchanted to a "cause".

Right, so you can't point out any actual "Nazi Apologist" posts either. And you think it would be good, reasonable journalism for London to be portrayed as somewhere where the streets burn at night and lone asian students are attacked on their way home. Not sure what the rest of your post had to do with my post though.

[This Charming Man]

I'm sure they'd be reporting on marxist-driven football hooliganism if only it existed.

 

HSV v St Pauli

Atlanta v Lazio

Hansa Rostock v St Pauli

Celtic v Rangers

[Dig Dig]

Right, so you can't point out any actual "Nazi Apologist" posts either. And you think it would be good, reasonable journalism for London to be portrayed as somewhere where the streets burn at night and lone asian students are attacked on their way home. Not sure what the rest of your post had to do with my post though.

 

Documentary or not, would you travel to Euro 2012 if you were black or asian? Even the foriegn office are advising black and asians not to go and that was before last nights documentary. I know that only the worst aspects of the football/far right culture were shown but is it right that a major football tournament is held in countries where people of a certain race are activily discouraged from going?

[The9]

Livorno.

Went to one of their games against Lazio and it was mayhem on a scale like I've never seen.

Marxist left v Neo Nazi right.

 

But are there Marxist hooligans when there aren't Neo-Nazi ones ? Genuine question.

[View From The Top]

But are there Marxist hooligans when there aren't Neo-Nazi ones ? Genuine question.

 

Marxist Ultras most definitely. In Italy Livorno & Atalanta lead the way.

[The9]

HSV v St Pauli

Atlanta v Lazio

Hansa Rostock v St Pauli

Celtic v Rangers

 

Same question as above. I'm aware of St Pauli's "alternative" culture (and their sausage train). I don't doubt there are Marxist v Fascist conflicts, but we know from the er, control of the means of media production, that there's fascist football violence when there's no obvious target too. Is this where the whole argument breaks down into one about media bias (I see dune skipped ahead a chapter) ?

 

But really, Celtic v Rangers is primarily a marxist ideological issue ? There was me thinking it was all about religious bigotry.

[View From The Top]

Same question as above. I'm aware of St Pauli's "alternative" culture (and their sausage train). I don't doubt there are Marxist v Fascist conflicts, but we know from the er, control of the means of media production, that there's fascist football violence when there's no obvious target too. Is this where the whole argument breaks down into one about media bias (I see dune skipped ahead a chapter) ?

 

But really, Celtic v Rangers is primarily a marxist ideological issue ? There was me thinking it was all about religious bigotry.

 

Celtic have always been the Marxist club out of the Old Firm. Yes that doesn't exist in the same way now but it was part of the clubs DNA

 

Rangers were/are the Establishment club

[CB Fry]

 

But really, Celtic v Rangers is primarily a marxist ideological issue ? There was me thinking it was all about religious bigotry.

 

...also the Irish troubles by proxy.

 

 

Fascinated to know which ones are the Marxists? The Unionists or the Catholics?

[View From The Top]

...also the Irish troubles by proxy.

 

 

Fascinated to know which ones are the Marxists? The Unionists or the Catholics?

 

Irish "troubles" = The PIRA described themselves Marxist revolutionaries.

[The9]

Right, so you can't point out any actual "Nazi Apologist" posts either. And you think it would be good, reasonable journalism for London to be portrayed as somewhere where the streets burn at night and lone asian students are attacked on their way home. Not sure what the rest of your post had to do with my post though.

 

I thought I just did point out some nazi apologist posts. I'm not talking about holocaust denials, I'm talking about people claiming the nazi salutes weren't nazi salutes and implying that's ok.

 

I said I think it would be reasonable to advise that there had been riots and certainly there have been attacks on lone asian students in London with or without riots. It is all about the context, and I think the Euro 2012 report was adequately illustrating some of the things that have happened and the similarities between that and the environment likely for Euro 2012. The football stadium and it's surrounding area is also a much smaller area than "London" generally, so in terms of likelihood, proven attacks and racism over a sustained period in Ukrainian football crowds (and the specific incidents shown) are more representative than rioting footage from London, which has happened once in 30 years.

 

I guess we're just differing on what our expectations are of these kind of tournaments. It may well be the case that there aren't any nazi groups targeting outsiders at Euro 2012, but the BBC has certainly shown it is a significant possibility.

[The9]

Irish "troubles" = The PIRA described themselves Marxist revolutionaries.

 

Would you not regard that as an fairly insignificant splinter of the main issue of religious bigotry between Catholics and Protestants though ? How many Old Firm battles stem from Marxists having a pop at the institution ? And how do they justify their own role as supporters of a similar institution ?

[View From The Top]

Would you not regard that as an fairly insignificant splinter of the main issue of religious bigotry between Catholics and Protestants though ? How many Old Firm battles stem from Marxists having a pop at the institution ? And how do they justify their own role as supporters of a similar institution ?

 

I'm not saying the poster was correct regarding the Old Firm rivalries, simply pointing out that a historical link between Celtic and Marxism was there if one looked.

[This Charming Man]

But really, Celtic v Rangers is primarily a marxist ideological issue ? There was me thinking it was all about religious bigotry.

 

It's one of the main aspects of the rivalry. Celtic are very much left wing and politics does play a large role in the rivalry.

 

Both clubs have big links with HSV (Rangers) and St Pauli (Celtic) that mainly comes down to political views as well.

Edited 30 May, 2012 by This Charming Man

[The9]

It's one of the aspects of the rivalry. Celtic are very much left wing.

 

Is that how they've managed to operate a much more efficient capitalist model than Rangers ?

 

Interesting anyway, though I'm still pretty sure that Rangers fan who stopped speaking to me in Amsterdam (about 3 rounds in) after I mentioned that I wasn't religious but that my (now late) nan was a catholic wasn't doing it out of loyalty to the status quo. To be fair, it's not like he tried to explain himself either. I was properly shocked by that, even after an all-dayer it still phased me that people actually behaved like that. Good job his 5 mates were slightly more sensible about it and just moved him away.

Edited 30 May, 2012 by The9

[This Charming Man]

Celtic have always been the Marxist club out of the Old Firm. Yes that doesn't exist in the same way now but it was part of the clubs DNA

 

Rangers were/are the Establishment club

 

There is plenty of 'Free Palestine' graffiti around the Gallowgate area of Glasgow (I'm aware that's also down to the link between Palestine and the IRA). Celtic also display plenty of anti-fascist banners at games as well. Politics does play a big part in it all still.

[CB Fry]

Irish "troubles" = The PIRA described themselves Marxist revolutionaries.

 

 

Right. And Celtic fans affilated to PIRA total how many?

 

Celtic Rangers is barely left/right let alone Marx/Fascist and certainly not compared to how much it is catholic/protestant.

[View From The Top]

There is plenty of 'Free Palestine' graffiti around the Gallowgate area of Glasgow (I'm aware that's also down to the link between Palestine and the IRA). Celtic also display plenty of anti-fascist banners at games as well. Politics does play a big part in it all still.

 

I don't really disagree but when push comes to shove, religion is the driver.

[View From The Top]

Right. And Celtic fans affilated to PIRA total how many?

 

Celtic Rangers is barely left/right let alone Marx/Fascist and certainly not compared to how much it is catholic/protestant.

 

I would suggest you read what I've answered previously.

[This Charming Man]

Is that how they've managed to operate a much more efficient capitalist model than Rangers ?

 

Interesting anyway, though I'm still pretty sure that Rangers fan who stopped speaking to me in Amsterdam (about 3 rounds in) after I mentioned that I wasn't religious but that my (now late) nan was a catholic wasn't doing it out of loyalty to the status quo. To be fair, it's not like he tried to explain himself either. I was properly shocked by that, even after an all-dayer it still phased me that people actually behaved like that. Good job his 5 mates were slightly more sensible about it and just moved him away.

 

There are those on either side who couldn't care less and there are also those on both sides that take it to the extreme. Was chatting to someone outside Ibrox a while back and he was banging on about how it's a disgrace that the schools in Glasgow are still segregated, then started screaming you 'fenian b*stards' as the police started escorting Celtic past.

 

I know a Rangers lad who is a staunch protestant but has recently started seeing a Catholic girl and has started to go back on some of his more 'extreme' religious views, but he's been shunned by his best mates for this and basically told he's not welcome at Rangers any more and they want nothing to do with him.

 

Shame as one of his mates is one of the most connected lads at Rangers in terms of getting tickets and has sorted me out for Rangers and HSV games in the past. Thankfully I now have another contact. Ha.

[This Charming Man]

Right. And Celtic fans affilated to PIRA total how many?

 

Celtic Rangers is barely left/right let alone Marx/Fascist and certainly not compared to how much it is catholic/protestant.

 

And that's exactly what I said earlier. Whilst religion is the main aspect, politics plays a huge part in it.

[Sour Mash]

I thought I just did point out some nazi apologist posts. I'm not talking about holocaust denials, I'm talking about people claiming the nazi salutes weren't nazi salutes and implying that's ok.

 

I said I think it would be reasonable to advise that there had been riots and certainly there have been attacks on lone asian students in London with or without riots. It is all about the context, and I think the Euro 2012 report was adequately illustrating some of the things that have happened and the similarities between that and the environment likely for Euro 2012. The football stadium and it's surrounding area is also a much smaller area than "London" generally, so in terms of likelihood, proven attacks and racism over a sustained period in Ukrainian football crowds (and the specific incidents shown) are more representative than rioting footage from London, which has happened once in 30 years.

 

I guess we're just differing on what our expectations are of these kind of tournaments. It may well be the case that there aren't any nazi groups targeting outsiders at Euro 2012, but the BBC has certainly shown it is a significant possibility.

That's not being a "nazi apologist" though, so you're wrong there. Some of the "salutes" certainly weren't clear and as has been agreed by many on here, it's a fine line in European football support between the "Seig Heil" and the "fist pump", pointing that out certainly doesn't make someone a Nazi Apologist and if you think it does you should consult a dictionary. The BBC hasn't shown it is a distinct possibility at all, they've just shown the worst of what happens at certain games over there. The vast, vast majority of ultras won't even be at the games and the handful that will be will only be attending games involving their countries. About 75% of countries in Europe can be pretty dodgy for watching one's club if you're in the wrong time/place or don't use a bit of common sense. As asked before, can we we have a list of countries that this forum feels are "acceptable" for hosting major tournaments?

[Sour Mash]

And that's exactly what I said earlier. Whilst religion is the main aspect, politics plays a huge part in it.

Have been in the St Pauli club shop with Celtic shirts on sale next to Che Guevera flags, make of that what you will. All a load of confused rubbish really.

[buctootim]

Irish "troubles" = The PIRA described themselves Marxist revolutionaries.

 

There was a wide range of political opinion in PIRA.The majority were primarily driven by nationalism, some by socialist Republicanism and some like Brian Keenan who was onetime PIRA Chief of Staff didnt really care so much Irish nationalism and were driven by a dream of global marxist revolution.

Edited 30 May, 2012 by buctootim

[buctootim]

There are those on either side who couldn't care less and there are also those on both sides that take it to the extreme. Was chatting to someone outside Ibrox a while back and he was banging on about how it's a disgrace that the schools in Glasgow are still segregated, then started screaming you 'fenian b*stards' as the police started escorting Celtic past.

 

I know a Rangers lad who is a staunch protestant but has recently started seeing a Catholic girl and has started to go back on some of his more 'extreme' religious views, but he's been shunned by his best mates for this and basically told he's not welcome at Rangers any more and they want nothing to do with him.

 

Shame as one of his mates is one of the most connected lads at Rangers in terms of getting tickets and has sorted me out for Rangers and HSV games in the past. Thankfully I now have another contact. Ha.

 

The reality is that now its about tribalism rather than religion. Your gang against my gang. I seriously doubt that either the proddy lad or the catholic girl are ardent believers and church goers.

[dune]

And that's exactly what I said earlier. Whilst religion is the main aspect, politics plays a huge part in it.

 

Religion (modern religions - Christianity, Islam etc) are political institutions over and over any spirituality. You cannot talk about religion without talking about politics because they are one and the same. It's all about power and control.

[dune]

There was a wide range of political opinion in PIRA.The majority were primarily driven by nationalism, some by socialist Republicanism and some like Brian Keenan who was onetime PIRA Chief of Staff didnt really care so much Irish nationalism and were driven by a dream of global marxist revolution.

 

I see Gerry Adams is leading the No campaign in Ireland. His brand of Socialism is akin the to the SNP's. You could call them Nationalist Socialists I suppose...

[Micky]

I see some players are getting their tactics ready as well:

 

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11661/7786052/Balotelli-I-ll-walk-off-pitch

 

Interesting comment from Dave too,

 

dave says May 30, 2012 1:11pm

 

Trust me guys I came back from Kiev on the 29 th April and they are getting ready for serious Trouble. Donetsk fans are joining in with Dynamo Kiev Ultras and I can warn you that they will be targeting Jews Asian and Black players. They are fanatics the Panorama programme shown them on the other night. When Ukraine officials were approaced by the Film crew about 1000's of fans doing Nazi salutes, he said that they were only pointing to the opposing fans what a load of rubbish !!!be very careful friends. it is dangerous over in the Ukraine and Poland. often the Police turn a blind eye.

[This Charming Man]

I see some players are getting their tactics ready as well:

 

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11661/7786052/Balotelli-I-ll-walk-off-pitch

 

Interesting comment from Dave too,

 

Well if Dave off the internet said that, it must be true.

 

PANIC! PANIC! PANIC!

[Micky]

Well if This Charming Man off the internet said that, it must be true.

 

DONT PANIC! DONT PANIC! DONT PANIC!

 

I've amended it for you - see it works both ways.

 

Tis all about perceptions mate, simple really. Whether you like it or not there are fans, FO officials, players and players parents who all percieve something in the BBC report, enough to actually stop them from travelling.

 

If you were black or asian, or any other non white come to that - would you feel comfortable in attending the games?

Edited 30 May, 2012 by Micky

[buctootim]

I see Gerry Adams is leading the No campaign in Ireland. His brand of Socialism is akin the to the SNP's. You could call them Nationalist Socialists I suppose...

 

True. Adams genuinely believes in the grassroots socialism stuff, but hes also very pragmatic. Sinn Fein have provided a lot of community based social services. help for elderly, job training etc for years. It was that that enabled them to overatke the SDLP as the main Nationalist party.

 

There was a good article in the Sunday Times (I think) a couple of weeks ago about how traditional community allegiances are breaking down. Unemployed Protestants are turning up at Sinn Fein advice surgeries, middle class catholics joining the Unionist party etc

[The9]

That's not being a "nazi apologist" though, so you're wrong there. Some of the "salutes" certainly weren't clear and as has been agreed by many on here, it's a fine line in European football support between the "Seig Heil" and the "fist pump", pointing that out certainly doesn't make someone a Nazi Apologist and if you think it does you should consult a dictionary. The BBC hasn't shown it is a distinct possibility at all, they've just shown the worst of what happens at certain games over there. The vast, vast majority of ultras won't even be at the games and the handful that will be will only be attending games involving their countries. About 75% of countries in Europe can be pretty dodgy for watching one's club if you're in the wrong time/place or don't use a bit of common sense. As asked before, can we we have a list of countries that this forum feels are "acceptable" for hosting major tournaments?

 

We have different interpretations of "nazi apologist", clearly. If you are denying someone is a nazi when their behaviour is marking them out as one, you're covering up their intentions by making excuses for them, for whatever reason.

 

I've actually never said anything about preventing countries from hosting, though I do think UEFA should be being a lot more strict about what's permitted having already awarded the tournament.

 

I'm also not sure how "using a bit of common sense" is applicable when sitting quietly in the home end and suddenly being attacked by "fellow" home fans, unless by "using common sense" you mean "don't go if you have a different skin colour", and is that a message people should be fine about ?

 

The stuff about ultras not attending matches is speculation, and even if they're not in the ground that doesn't mean they won't be around looking for targets, it's the ideal opportunity for a bit of publicity for whatever message they're trying to promote.

 

What I want to know is where are all the documentaries about the topless feminists ?

[The9]

The reality is that now its about tribalism rather than religion. Your gang against my gang. I seriously doubt that either the proddy lad or the catholic girl are ardent believers and church goers.

 

That's probably true, it was notable that the Rangers fan I was suddenly not speaking to wasn't interested in explaining himself, and his mates weren't exactly trying to go into the detail either. Much simpler to just ignore that you don't really have a justifiable reason, it doesn't involve much thinking.

[Griffo]

Well he wouldn't, he's never done a trip with England... just a kid.

 

F*ck off! Can barely afford Saints let alone England. Still tempted by Poland though.

[Griffo]

And I know Griffo's just parroting what some not very rounded grown ups have told him, but he really needs a context for all of his wannabe hoolie tendencies before he gets himself into some actual trouble, rather than just swallowing whatever bullsh*t some thicky "Der tukkin ur jahbs" bloke told him during "This Is England" once.

 

You've got this utter sh*t from where exactly?

[Sour Mash]

We have different interpretations of "nazi apologist", clearly. If you are denying someone is a nazi when their behaviour is marking them out as one, you're covering up their intentions by making excuses for them, for whatever reason.

 

I've actually never said anything about preventing countries from hosting, though I do think UEFA should be being a lot more strict about what's permitted having already awarded the tournament.

 

I'm also not sure how "using a bit of common sense" is applicable when sitting quietly in the home end and suddenly being attacked by "fellow" home fans, unless by "using common sense" you mean "don't go if you have a different skin colour", and is that a message people should be fine about ?

 

The stuff about ultras not attending matches is speculation, and even if they're not in the ground that doesn't mean they won't be around looking for targets, it's the ideal opportunity for a bit of publicity for whatever message they're trying to promote.

 

What I want to know is where are all the documentaries about the topless feminists ?

Saw a couple of birds doing a topless photo shoot in a park when I was in Ukraine, so fingers crossed.

[JustMike]

They showed similar on the Skysports special report a couple weeks back. How that lot got the euro comp is beyond me.

[Saint Without a Halo]

Gus Poyet is South American and comes from URUGUAY NOT UKRAINE

 

Elsewhere CD, how can you say there is no interest in Quatar. They are buying up top players to entertain the small population and their Sheiks own several top clubs including Paris PSG!!!

 

Errrrrr just where did I say Poyet was from the Ukraine ( see my post 29)? I also agree there is a lot of interest in Qatar (not Quatar) see my post 23 but it is a country with only 200k people and will be 45c when the world cup is on.

[theyin]

Panorama's budget for this programme would not have stretched to a prolonged fishing expedition to garner the required footage, of that I can assure you.

 

I would also recommend a look at BBC producer guidelines before making such scathing attacks on the authenticity of BBC journalism.

 

I don't think there will be much trouble for those of Anglo-Saxon heritage but I certainly wouldn't be recommending anyone from an ethnic background to travel east this summer.

 

I will be working there myself, though this time, as opposed to '08, I'm told I will be accompanied at all times by an interpreter and driver. Somehow I suspect they could be termed as 'heavies' by some.

[This Charming Man]

Panorama's budget for this programme would not have stretched to a prolonged fishing expedition to garner the required footage, of that I can assure you.

 

I would also recommend a look at BBC producer guidelines before making such scathing attacks on the authenticity of BBC journalism.

 

I don't think there will be much trouble for those of Anglo-Saxon heritage but I certainly wouldn't be recommending anyone from an ethnic background to travel east this summer.

 

I will be working there myself, though this time, as opposed to '08, I'm told I will be accompanied at all times by an interpreter and driver. Somehow I suspect they could be termed as 'heavies' by some.

 

So you work for the Beeb?

 

Dune is going to love you...

[dune]

So you work for the Beeb?

 

Dune is going to love you...

 

A good mate for Verbal.

[The9]

You've got this utter sh*t from where exactly?

 

My interpretation of your posts. I'm sure I'm not alone.

[Frank's cousin]

They'd never dream of highlighting the antics left wing marxist types, despite the fact that millions who have opposed communist regimes were murdered for doing so. That wouldn't suit the agenda of the BBC at all.

 

You really are a cretin - Yes there are countless examples of so called 'communist/marxist' regimes have instigated violence against tehir own people - but even you must recognise these are not marxist/communist regimes in true sence of the philiosophy - merely the remaining party labels. Slight difference between true communisim and fascism is simple enough for even you to understand - one is based on equality, one inextricably linked to ethic superiority.

 

Given how you are so proud of Britain I take it that includes our stance against fascism in the war? (although judging by some of your previous posts its hard to tell...) in which case surely you should be applauding those left wing Ultras for having a go at fascist hoolis?

[Prince Jazzbo]

Slightly off track. What would happen if Israel qualify for Qatar?

[cadiz saint]

"one is based on equality, one inextricably linked to ethic superiority" but both seem to lead to totalitarianism regimes. 

[View From The Top]

"one is based on equality, one inextricably linked to ethic superiority" but both seem to lead to totalitarianism regimes. 

 

Good question. I would suggest that FIFA will ensure they don't.

[dune]

You really are a cretin - Yes there are countless examples of so called 'communist/marxist' regimes have instigated violence against tehir own people - but even you must recognise these are not marxist/communist regimes in true sence of the philiosophy - merely the remaining party labels. Slight difference between true communisim and fascism is simple enough for even you to understand - one is based on equality, one inextricably linked to ethic superiority.

 

Given how you are so proud of Britain I take it that includes our stance against fascism in the war? (although judging by some of your previous posts its hard to tell...) in which case surely you should be applauding those left wing Ultras for having a go at fascist hoolis?

 

So what are you saying Frank?

[The9]

Slightly off track. What would happen if Israel qualify for Qatar?

 

I suspect they just wouldn't let them in, what with a lot of arab nations refusing to recognise the existence of the state. But given FIFA's stance on legal issues during World Cups (i.e. they basically want to run the country), I'm sure FIFA would rule some fudge that claimed Qatar wasn't an arab state for the duration of the Israeli team's stay, or rename the Israeli team to something inoffensive and give them all diplomat status, or something equally as spurious.