SW11_Saint Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 What is even more shocking and dispicable than any footage' date=' is that we have morons on here trying to defend it or dilute it as something that can be explained by 'understanding football'. Whether you arseholes are serious or on a regular wind up, makes no difference... ignorant arseholes.[/quote'] Agreed. A right couple of pr1cks. Wind up or not, they are embarrassing themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1885 Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 A lot of the Nazi salutes, weren't actually Nazi salutes. It's just the style in which Ultra groups sing. We 'fist pump' in England when singing if you will, and they sort of make hand gestures like that. That might be true, but swastika banners and crossed out stars of David might speak for themselves... Football in Ukraine + Poland has got a right wight / racist problem and everybody knows. Their hardcore fans are even proud about it. Just one reason not to play the EC there in the first place... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 I think most of us were pretty shocked to see a bunch of Ukrainian yobs wade through the crowd to lay into some Indian students watching the same team as them and the police and stewards do absolutely nothing about it. Firstly it was shocking to see people get hammered just for having the temerity to have different coloured skin, it was shocking to see it from people supposedly on the same side as them (at least from a footballing perspective), and it was shocking to see the authorities stand around and do nothing. The stuff they also showed with wooden knives and rubbish tactical brawling was ridiculous and mildly comical, but the actual crowd footage and the reporting of it was far from patronising, lazy or cliched. They picked out some of the worst games to go to in terms of trouble, same as doing the obvious ones here. Then took hours and hours of footage to get the bits they've shown. You won't see the hours of footage with games passing off harmlessly. In many ways, it's an inverse form of racism, looking down our noses at other less developed, progressive countries in Europe "how can these savages, think they're fit to hold a major tournament!?!?". Imagine if a Ukrainian tv company had chosen to do a programme on tourism in London in August last year, the streets burning, not safe to go out after dark in lots of areas, an asian lad on his own being filmed being attacked and robbed, at least on a par, if not worse than anything we saw in this documentary - surely London is unsafe to visit? Oh, but we've got Sol Campbell sitting there in his s**t cardigan, being shown a small amount of edited highlights of the worst problems and telling us what sort of countries Ukraine and Poland are and what we can expect to find there, when he has no expertise or detailed knowledge of either place, just a famous face for an easy sound bite - lazy journalism. And before you say anything, Nazi salutes, s**t banners, and attacking small groups of fans are the actions of utter, utter bell ends to put it mildly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie B Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 Just more scaremongering from the media before a major tournament, weren't we all meant to be murdered/raped/kidnapped in South Africa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micky Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 They picked out some of the worst games to go to in terms of trouble, same as doing the obvious ones here. Then took hours and hours of footage to get the bits they've shown. You won't see the hours of footage with games passing off harmlessly. In many ways, it's an inverse form of racism, looking down our noses at other less developed, progressive countries in Europe "how can these savages, think they're fit to hold a major tournament!?!?". Imagine if a Ukrainian tv company had chosen to do a programme on tourism in London in August last year, the streets burning, not safe to go out after dark in lots of areas, an asian lad on his own being filmed being attacked and robbed, at least on a par, if not worse than anything we saw in this documentary - surely London is unsafe to visit? Oh, but we've got Sol Campbell sitting there in his s**t cardigan, being shown a small amount of edited highlights of the worst problems and telling us what sort of countries Ukraine and Poland are and what we can expect to find there, when he has no expertise or detailed knowledge of either place, just a famous face for an easy sound bite - lazy journalism. And before you say anything, Nazi salutes, s**t banners, and attacking small groups of fans are the actions of utter, utter bell ends to put it mildly. It's an interesting theory - but how do you know any of that, or are you just summising. Even if it were true - there was more than enough vile footage within the program to suggest that both nations have some very serious social problems. Police chiefs refusing to see the obvious, graffit strewn cities where anti-semitic graffiti and paraphernalia is pretty much the norm - nay, acceptable even. Fans fighting amongst their own, in the family section - because of their skin colour. It's like nothing I have seen in any football stadium over here for a very very long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie B Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 Fans fighting amongst their own, in the family section - because of their skin colour. It's like nothing I have seen in any football stadium over here for a very very long time. That's one thing I have to say I didn't buy at all, the family section just down the front from the ultras section? Also I'm sure those Asians aren't stupid enough to not realise that there is an element of right wing support at their local club and in the area, why would you choose to sit anywhere near them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 It's an interesting theory - but how do you know any of that, or are you just summising. Even if it were true - there was more than enough vile footage within the program to suggest that both nations have some very serious social problems. Police chiefs refusing to see the obvious, graffit strewn cities where anti-semitic graffiti and paraphernalia is pretty much the norm - nay, acceptable even. Fans fighting amongst their own, in the family section - because of their skin colour. It's like nothing I have seen in any football stadium over here for a very very long time. I've done games in both countries, major matches and not seen any problems. Same way if you went to most UK games you wouldn't see a thing, go to that West Ham v Millwall game the other year or our game against the skates that the bbc did a doc on and surprise, surprise, you'd get some decent footage. Or are you saying that this is the only footage and they just randomly happened to get some bad bits? What would you do if you were doing this doc? Go to the equivalent of MK Dons v Notts County or the equivalents of Swansea v Cardiff and get as many hours of footage as possible. How many individual bits of graffiti did we actually see across about 5 different cities? BBC love to hype it up before every major tournament, so no surprise this one is any different. They would love it to kick off other there so they can make a big fuss, unfortunately for them the vast, vast majority will pass off peacefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloridaMarlin Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 Which team actually try and do something about racist offences? It's not the team doing anything about it. He's been charged under the law. I'm pretty sure the FA would much rather the whole thing could have been brushed under the carpet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 It was a shocking programme, and from what I saw Poland and Ukraine are not fit nations to hold the Euros. UEFA should set an example and not let them hold it until they clean up their act. BUT, these sort of programmes can be misleading, when they showed the Sieg Heil salute I didn't hear the words "Sieg Heil", and the asian fans getting beaten up was awful, but maybe there was some other motivation behind it. Just because some asian guys are getting beat up doesn't mean it's racially motivated. Having said that even allowing for the BBC's exaggeration it looked bad. I would hate to live in a country that backward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericb Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 I've done games in both countries, major matches and not seen any problems. Same way if you went to most UK games you wouldn't see a thing, go to that West Ham v Millwall game the other year or our game against the skates that the bbc did a doc on and surprise, surprise, you'd get some decent footage. Or are you saying that this is the only footage and they just randomly happened to get some bad bits? What would you do if you were doing this doc? Go to the equivalent of MK Dons v Notts County or the equivalents of Swansea v Cardiff and get as many hours of footage as possible. How many individual bits of graffiti did we actually see across about 5 different cities? BBC love to hype it up before every major tournament, so no surprise this one is any different. They would love it to kick off other there so they can make a big fuss, unfortunately for them the vast, vast majority will pass off peacefully. There's a hell of a lot of truth in that, and it's often been the way with the press and football fans, saying that though there's also well known problems with racism/ultras in eastern europe, as there is too in italy. It's just as stupid to brush it under the carpet as it is to say that you see it at every game, it's the same as people saying you're going to get robbed in st mary's at night. There's definitely higher crime there and if you want to find it or proof of it you will, but if you have some common sense you can also avoid it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micky Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 That's one thing I have to say I didn't buy at all, the family section just down the front from the ultras section? Also I'm sure those Asians aren't stupid enough to not realise that there is an element of right wing support at their local club and in the area, why would you choose to sit anywhere near them? Good point. So what are you suggesting Stevie. The fight looked pretty real to me, quite graphic. Even as one of the asian lads was trying to make his escape, good old white supremists were taking cheap shots at him - it was sickening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micky Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 I've done games in both countries, major matches and not seen any problems. Same way if you went to most UK games you wouldn't see a thing, go to that West Ham v Millwall game the other year or our game against the skates that the bbc did a doc on and surprise, surprise, you'd get some decent footage. Or are you saying that this is the only footage and they just randomly happened to get some bad bits? What would you do if you were doing this doc? Go to the equivalent of MK Dons v Notts County or the equivalents of Swansea v Cardiff and get as many hours of footage as possible. How many individual bits of graffiti did we actually see across about 5 different cities? BBC love to hype it up before every major tournament, so no surprise this one is any different. They would love it to kick off other there so they can make a big fuss, unfortunately for them the vast, vast majority will pass off peacefully. I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the footage was edited to prove a point. That was (is) the whole point of making a program based around a certain subject. My question was how do you know that they would have had to take hours and hours of footage to get the bits that they wanted. It was a serious question as I thought that you were in the know. Irrespective of that, the footage that was shown was still relevant in context with the subject of the show - racism. And it was both shocking and vile. And, no I wouldn't expect to see anything like it at WHU v Millwall, us and the skates or any other ground in this country to be quite honest. You appear to have a bit of an issue with the BBC and believe that this is totally an overreation on their part, hopefully you will be proved correct. Sky also did a documentary in a similar flavour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cat Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 My mate lives in the Ukraine. He says it can be pretty tough for black people there and the amount of racist incidents are very high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie B Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 Good point. So what are you suggesting Stevie. The fight looked pretty real to me, quite graphic. Even as one of the asian lads was trying to make his escape, good old white supremists were taking cheap shots at him - it was sickening. Suggesting that they were fairly stupid sitting there when they must of known they probably would've got a bit of abuse or in this worst case a bad kicking, of course they should be allowed to sit where they like but they must of known that's not the case over there surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the footage was edited to prove a point. That was (is) the whole point of making a program based around a certain subject. My question was how do you know that they would have had to take hours and hours of footage to get the bits that they wanted. It was a serious question as I thought that you were in the know. Irrespective of that, the footage that was shown was still relevant in context with the subject of the show - racism. And it was both shocking and vile. And, no I wouldn't expect to see anything like it at WHU v Millwall, us and the skates or any other ground in this country to be quite honest. You appear to have a bit of an issue with the BBC and believe that this is totally an overreation on their part, hopefully you will be proved correct. Sky also did a documentary in a similar flavour. How do I know? It's how every one of these sort of documentaries are made. Watch the 2002 Panaroma programmes on England. I have an issue with lazy, cliched, incorrect journalism - see my earlier point re what sort of picture foreign media coverage of last summer's London riots could paint of the city in contrast to every day reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micky Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 How do I know? It's how every one of these sort of documentaries are made. Watch the 2002 Panaroma programmes on England. I have an issue with lazy, cliched, incorrect journalism - see my earlier point re what sort of picture foreign media coverage of last summer's London riots could paint of the city in contrast to every day reality. But there is nothing lazy about it, they showed enough examples of racism, violence and almost acceptance. I doubt that their footage took years and years to compile - yes it was selective - but, as I said before there were scenes that nobody should have to endure when going to a football game. It's sickening to think that two of our very own Saints accademy talents do not feel it safe enough for their own parent to travel to the competition due to racial reasons. They then have to play for their country knowing that they could be in line for some pretty vile abuse. I hope you are right and that it's the BBC overstating the case, there is not a problem with racism at football in Poland and the Ukraine - and everything will be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 I hope you are right and that it's the BBC overstating the case, there is not a problem with racism at football in Poland and the Ukraine - and everything will be fine. I doubt it very much. The BBC do have a good amount of form in presenting a pre-conceived idea from rather flimsy evidence, but there really are some cases when the camera doesn't lie. The monkey chants at the two black players walking past and the attacking of riot police inside the stadium were very poor in themselves. What shocked me almost as much as the beating of the asians (whether it was indeed racially provoked or not) was how all the stewards treated it completely at arm's length; they did pretty much nothing to stop it, which in itself suggests an area of massive concern of how they police and control their stadiums out there. All I know is that I'm glad I'm not going out there. It may well all turn out rosy and not be anywhere near the levels of violence some are fearful of, but I would not be willing to take that risk knowing what I know and having seen what I've seen, in this documentary and countless other archive material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micky Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 I doubt it very much. The BBC do have a good amount of form in presenting a pre-conceived idea from rather flimsy evidence, but there really are some cases when the camera doesn't lie. The monkey chants at the two black players walking past and the attacking of riot police inside the stadium were very poor in themselves. What shocked me almost as much as the beating of the asians (whether it was indeed racially provoked or not) was how all the stewards treated it completely at arm's length; they did pretty much nothing to stop it, which in itself suggests an area of massive concern of how they police and control their stadiums out there. All I know is that I'm glad I'm not going out there. It may well all turn out rosy and not be anywhere near the levels of violence some are fearful of, but I would not be willing to take that risk knowing what I know and having seen what I've seen, in this documentary and countless other archive material. Unfortunately I tend to agree with you. The fact that black people feel the need to boycott visiting the championships would appear to be testament to this. With all due respect to those people currently defending / playing down the level of the problem - I wonder how many of them are asian / black. I bet that most (if not all) of the people who have commented here are white males, who can go to the championship without to much fear of intimidation - quite a different case for non whites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippineSaint Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 Cut it out you apologists. I know what I saw and it wasn't a flock of fcking seagulls. Good Group Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junction 9 Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 Unfortunately England fans these days will get walked over. Nigel from Berkshire and Davey from Suffolk will have a great time in their St George's costumes. Wish hundreds of proper England lads still travelled who would walk all over these 'ultra' lot. Unfortunately 4,000+ bans has put a stop to that! What an astonishing post on so many levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandwichsaint Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 That's one thing I have to say I didn't buy at all, the family section just down the front from the ultras section? Also I'm sure those Asians aren't stupid enough to not realise that there is an element of right wing support at their local club and in the area, why would you choose to sit anywhere near them? Bet they were wearing mini-skirts too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 That's one thing I have to say I didn't buy at all, the family section just down the front from the ultras section? Also I'm sure those Asians aren't stupid enough to not realise that there is an element of right wing support at their local club and in the area, why would you choose to sit anywhere near them? It's all very convenient for the film crew isn't it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 It was all staged for the documentary, get over it folks!! Go and have a look at Syria if you want to get all upset, now that's real life. X Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Charming Man Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 Sat he the stands he said that Kharkiv fans confirmed they were shouting 'Sieg Heil' because Hitler hated the Jews. No he didn't. He said he was unsure what they were saying and that something may have got lost in translation. They were not Sieg Heiling, the lower league team with 30 odd degenerates in their ultras section were Sieg Heiling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Charming Man Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 How do I know? It's how every one of these sort of documentaries are made. Watch the 2002 Panaroma programmes on England. I have an issue with lazy, cliched, incorrect journalism - see my earlier point re what sort of picture foreign media coverage of last summer's London riots could paint of the city in contrast to every day reality. The best was the Panorama documentary about the World Cup in Germany. I was on the street in Cologne when the camera man was running down the street with his camera pointed at the ground. England fans were peacefully walking through the city back to the station after the game, the streets were knee deep in glass bottles and people were kicking them out of their way as they walked along. When we saw him running along filming the ground, we even joked at the time I bet they're trying to claim it's kicking off. Couldn't quite believe my eyes when I saw the footage on BBC later on and they were actually claiming England fans were lobbing bottles and they were running for cover. Lost all respect for the BBC's reporting on such matters ever since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Charming Man Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 You're almost as bad as the Ukrainian minister on the footage. They were chanting Zieg Hiel and doing the Hitler salute, did you miss that part of the footage? And for those that think the Indian students footage was staged, go down to your local hospital and get a brain transplant. Most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, this forum is a joke. Stop talking about things you know nothing about. You're starting to sound a bit silly. I've stood with the Eintracht Frankfurt ultras who are left wing; display socialist, anti-fascist and Che Guevara banners. They even had a load of Ultras over from Atlanta at that game and they're as far left as they come. They all chanted in this way, we even joked about being stood on a terrace with 10k lefties doing the Nazi salute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 Stop talking about things you know nothing about. You're starting to sound a bit silly. I've stood with the Eintracht Frankfurt ultras who are left wing; display socialist, anti-fascist and Che Guevara banners. They even had a load of Ultras over from Atlanta at that game and they're as far left as they come. They all chanted in this way, we even joked about being stood on a terrace with 10k lefties doing the Nazi salute. Stalin was as far left as they come and he killed 20 million people. Not all lefties are Michael Foot. But I think fist pump/nazi salute is a grey area so get your general point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Charming Man Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 Stalin was as far left as they come and he killed 20 million people. Not all lefties are Michael Foot. But I think fist pump/nazi salute is a grey area so get your general point. I'm aware of that but you're not going to get a load of lefties doing a Nazi salute in a country where it is illegal to salute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nexstar Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 No he didn't. He said he was unsure what they were saying and that something may have got lost in translation. They were not Sieg Heiling, the lower league team with 30 odd degenerates in their ultras section were Sieg Heiling. Watch it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel=God-Poyet=Sod Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 Even if the theory that the Indian group were paid to be in the programme and it was all staged is correct , it still emphasised the Programme's message. They were still attacked for the colour of their skin, regardless if the BBC put them there or not. I don't believe the BBC did fix the footage, just to demonise Ukraine and Poland. Not all of the media resort to such tactics like Murdoch would have done and probably certain members on the board of Uefa and FIFA if they were guaranteed a large cheque at the end. Bottom line is, the programme was shocking and shows the incompetence of the people in charge of European and world football.* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 Even if the theory that the Indian group were paid to be in the programme and it was all staged is correct , it still emphasised the Programme's message. They were still attacked for the colour of their skin, regardless if the BBC put them there or not. I don't believe the BBC did fix the footage, just to demonise Ukraine and Poland. Not all of the media resort to such tactics like Murdoch would have done and probably certain members on the board of Uefa and FIFA if they were guaranteed a large cheque at the end. Bottom line is, the programme was shocking and shows the incompetence of the people in charge of European and world football.* Could you provide us with a quick list of countries you feel are acceptable venues for the Euro Championships? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 We all know that there are problems with racism in Eastern Europe and we all know the BBC will edit Panorama to fit their brief so as with most things, the truth will be somewhere in the middle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Charming Man Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 Could you provide us with a quick list of countries you feel are acceptable venues for the Euro Championships? Respectable Western European countries like Spain... oh wait, they've also got a serious racism problem and some of the worst police brutality I've ever seen on my travels. Maybe Italy then... oh wait, they've been suffering from corruption for decades now and are even talking about suspending football there for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 (edited) The Nazi salute thing is tricky. Matt Slatter was getting loads of sh.it from Rangers fans about an interview he did with a broadcaster in the States where they (the US) confused the Red Hand salute with the Nazi salute and both Roma and Lazio ultras have been hauled up after Roman salutes were confused with Nazi salutes and Roma fans aren't right wing like some Lazio ultra groups. Edited 30 May, 2012 by View From The Top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 Respectable Western European countries like Spain... oh wait, they've also got a serious racism problem and some of the worst police brutality I've ever seen on my travels. Maybe Italy then... oh wait, they've been suffering from corruption for decades now and are even talking about suspending football there for a while. Personally I'd have them somewhere where we can get to easily and they produce good beer or wine, purely for selfish reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Charming Man Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 Personally I'd have them somewhere where we can get to easily and they produce good beer or wine, purely for selfish reasons. Same here. Personally I reckon we should hold every tournament in Spain. Superb weather, lively coastal resorts, decent grounds, good food, good beer and plenty to do when in between games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 Same here. Personally I reckon we should hold every tournament in Spain. Superb weather, lively coastal resorts, decent grounds, good food, good beer and plenty to do when in between games. Never understood why Spain haven't had a major tournament since '82, guess they're not too bothered with all the cost and hassle that comes with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 Unfortunately England fans these days will get walked over. Nigel from Berkshire and Davey from Suffolk will have a great time in their St George's costumes. Wish hundreds of proper England lads still travelled who would walk all over these 'ultra' lot. Unfortunately 4,000+ bans has put a stop to that! As with every england game there will still be a number of "lads" in attendance. But the cameras only tend to show/interview the utter tards. Alot of tournement folk have been put off by the threat of violence and the pain in the ass location. Griffo, I dont think you realise how different games are at wembley to compared to the away fixtures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 As with every england game there will still be a number of "lads" in attendance. But the cameras only tend to show/interview the utter tards. Alot of tournement folk have been put off by the threat of violence and the pain in the ass location. Griffo, I dont think you realise how different games are at wembley to compared to the away fixtures. This is the 1st tournament since '78 where I don't know a single person attending. All my lot are saving for Brazil! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Charming Man Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 As with every england game there will still be a number of "lads" in attendance. But the cameras only tend to show/interview the utter tards. Alot of tournement folk have been put off by the threat of violence and the pain in the ass location. Griffo, I dont think you realise how different games are at wembley to compared to the away fixtures. Well he wouldn't, he's never done a trip with England... just a kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Charming Man Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 Could always hold it in Hungary... The Panorama documentary didn't go down too well with the locals it will seem... And what Panorama failed to mention, the Ultra groups don't care for EURO 2012 and are very unlikely to be in attendance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 They picked out some of the worst games to go to in terms of trouble, same as doing the obvious ones here. Then took hours and hours of footage to get the bits they've shown. You won't see the hours of footage with games passing off harmlessly. In many ways, it's an inverse form of racism, looking down our noses at other less developed, progressive countries in Europe "how can these savages, think they're fit to hold a major tournament!?!?". Imagine if a Ukrainian tv company had chosen to do a programme on tourism in London in August last year, the streets burning, not safe to go out after dark in lots of areas, an asian lad on his own being filmed being attacked and robbed, at least on a par, if not worse than anything we saw in this documentary - surely London is unsafe to visit? Oh, but we've got Sol Campbell sitting there in his s**t cardigan, being shown a small amount of edited highlights of the worst problems and telling us what sort of countries Ukraine and Poland are and what we can expect to find there, when he has no expertise or detailed knowledge of either place, just a famous face for an easy sound bite - lazy journalism. And before you say anything, Nazi salutes, s**t banners, and attacking small groups of fans are the actions of utter, utter bell ends to put it mildly. Your point being that they showed the worst case scenarios, but that doesn't change the fact that these things actually did happen, and it's therefore not unlikely that they could happen at the Euros. As for the nazi apologists, hooray for the trolls, because trivialising or ignoring racism and violence against minorities has NEVER caused any problems, nosiree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 Your point being that they showed the worst case scenarios, but that doesn't change the fact that these things actually did happen, and it's therefore not unlikely that they could happen at the Euros. As for the nazi apologists, hooray for the trolls, because trivialising or ignoring racism and violence against minorities has NEVER caused any problems, nosiree. Fair enough. So you feel it would be good journalism, for an asian tv company to do a documentary on London advising it's nationals not to visit the city and students not to study there, while showing various bits of footage from the London riots last year? It would be exactly the same principle. Also, I've not seen one post that could be classed as "Nazi Apologists". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 Stop talking about things you know nothing about. You're starting to sound a bit silly. I've stood with the Eintracht Frankfurt ultras who are left wing; display socialist, anti-fascist and Che Guevara banners. They even had a load of Ultras over from Atlanta at that game and they're as far left as they come. They all chanted in this way, we even joked about being stood on a terrace with 10k lefties doing the Nazi salute. They'd never dream of highlighting the antics left wing marxist types, despite the fact that millions who have opposed communist regimes were murdered for doing so. That wouldn't suit the agenda of the BBC at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 It doesn't mention clowns. Saints fans can breathe a sigh of relief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 (edited) Same here. Personally I reckon we should hold every tournament in Spain. Superb weather, lively coastal resorts, decent grounds, good food, good beer and plenty to do when in between games. i couldn't disagree more. Spain have threatened the worlds football governing bodies of withdrawing from competitions if the GFA are admitted. The next appeal is coming in 2013 and the application coincides with the forum taking place in London, so fingers crossed that finally the GFA are accepted despite whinging from the Spaniards. http://www.playthegame.org/news/detailed/uefa-gives-ground-to-gibraltars-fight-to-join-international-football-5360.html http://footballgibraltar.wordpress.com/2012/04/29/brief-news-portsmouth-over-in-july-uefa-application-going-along-quietly/ It seems they are also paying the Skates to play there. Edited 30 May, 2012 by dune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 Fair enough. So you feel it would be good journalism, for an asian tv company to do a documentary on London advising it's nationals not to visit the city and students not to study there, while showing various bits of footage from the London riots last year? It would be exactly the same principle. Also, I've not seen one post that could be classed as "Nazi Apologists". I feel it wouldn't actually be misleading, provided it was based on actual footage and in context, which the 2012 report was. Have you not ? There are a number of "they're not nazis, they've just got an itchy armpit/doing a zany arm dance" type responses on here, conveniently ignoring their proximity to swastikas and anti-Jewish slogans, linked to the violent attacks on those with different coloured skin also shown in the documentary. Even if they're not doing 100% identical nazi salutes, their intention is to present themselves as affiliated with those ideas. Same as the Lazio fascists, who have a mildly different political agenda, but it's not like fascism and nazism haven't been linked before. And I know Griffo's just parroting what some not very rounded grown ups have told him, but he really needs a context for all of his wannabe hoolie tendencies before he gets himself into some actual trouble, rather than just swallowing whatever bullsh*t some thicky "Der tukkin ur jahbs" bloke told him during "This Is England" once. Mocking people for being bothered by this kind of stuff just makes it more difficult to prevent, and are (Godwin's rule is difficult to avoid in this context) exactly the sort of warped justifications encouraged by Hitler's propaganda to get support and acceptance from the masses for his abhorrent policies. Not surprisingly there's a context of ignorance, intolerance and poverty underpinning the whole thing - it's always easier to recruit the disenchanted to a "cause". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 Could always hold it in Hungary... Whats Szotti? (sp) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Charming Man Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 Whats Szotti? (sp) Would appear to be sunflower seeds... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 30 May, 2012 Share Posted 30 May, 2012 They'd never dream of highlighting the antics left wing marxist types, despite the fact that millions who have opposed communist regimes were murdered for doing so. That wouldn't suit the agenda of the BBC at all. I'm sure they'd be reporting on marxist-driven football hooliganism if only it existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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