Abortions

[alpine_saint]

Better to have an abortion than to bring a child into the world that isn't wanted or can't be cared for.

 

There are thousands of couples desperate to have kids. The unwanted kids, if given the chance, could end up in very loving families. In Austria every hospital has a "baby bank". A heated compartment with an outside door fitted with an alarm, that allows unwanted babies to be surrendered to the state with no questions asked. The baby immediately becomes a ward of state and is adopted. I reckon half the attraction of abortion is to deliberately avoid the risk of becoming attached to the baby and wanting to keep it.

 

And if abnormalities show up on the scans it's probably the kindest thing to do.

 

There are babies being aborted for being the wrong gender or for having simple to fix disorders like minor cleft palates. Proud of that ?

Also, what do you feel about "reduction" ? Where IVF leads to two viable foetuses but the couple involved decide they only want one baby so get one aborted ?

 

Abortion doctors are f**king monsters in my book.

[JPTCount]

there was an american study a few years ago that found evidence to conclude that in those states were abortion had been legalised crime rates were lower

[dune]

In Austria every hospital has a "baby bank". A heated compartment with an outside door fitted with an alarm, that allows unwanted babies to be surrendered with no questions asked.

 

I think you're getting confused with Joseph Fritzals cellar.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

Better to have an abortion than to bring a child into the world that isn't wanted or can't be cared for. And if abnormalities show up on the scans it's probably the kindest thing to do.

 

Our last born came when my Mrs was what Consultants term a "Geriatric Mother" , that means close to 40. The risks increase with older Mothers and they offered us an amniocetisis. Mrs and I had already talked about this and we declined for two reasons. 1. A level of risk that the procedure could harm the baby. 2. If tested positive for a Down's baby what were they expecting us to do? They were visibly uncomfortable when we said that we had no intention of a 'termination' and that we would love and care for baby no matter what nature had planned for us.

 

I feel very uncomfortable with the fact that there are some people who are shallow enough and would happily 'terminate' if baby had a cleft palate or other treatable problems.

 

In understanding it's a free choice I still don't actually agree with that choice.

[Saintandy666]

This. Why should a little innocent be deprived of life just because "Mummy" got too p*ssed one night 9 months before ?

 

YES - it does happen. And if it is so "traumatic" to have an abortion, why are there now recorded cases of some women having had NINE abortions ?

 

And I suggest some of you sanctimonious pro-choicers go and look up what is involved in a "partial birth" abortion. the most disgusting thing I have ever read about. The doctor who thought that up is on a par with Josef Mengele.

 

The women and pressure groups in the 50s and 60s who fought for legal abortion had a moral and noble cause, imo. Some women of the 90s, noughties and tens (?) are moral trash that have sullied the achievements of their forebears.

 

I find it strange that you are in favour of the death penalty, yet you give so much weight to an unborn embryo. A bit of consistency would be nice.

 

And you are using extreme cases. Most abortions are extremely tough decisions and are not taken lightly because of some '**** up 9 months before'. And what qualifies you to say that women today are moral trash compared to your generation's women. What a load of nastalgic rubbish. You are simplifying and demeaning what is an awful decision for anyone to have to make and one I wish I never have to.

 

edit: I don't think any pro-choicer finds pleasure in the idea of an abortion or see's it as 'good' as you seem to indicate, but just something that sadly sometimes happens due to certain circumstances.

Edited 24 May, 2012 by Saintandy666

[dune]

Our last born came when my Mrs was what Consultants term a "Geriatric Mother" , that means close to 40. The risks increase with older Mothers and they offered us an amniocetisis. Mrs and I had already talked about this and we declined for two reasons. 1. A level of risk that the procedure could harm the baby. 2. If tested positive for a Down's baby what were they expecting us to do? They were visibly uncomfortable when we said that we had no intention of a 'termination' and that we would love and care for baby no matter what nature had planned for us.

 

I feel very uncomfortable with the fact that there are some people who are shallow enough and would happily 'terminate' if baby had a cleft palate or other treatable problems.

 

In understanding it's a free choice I still don't actually agree with that choice.

 

That's fair enough. It should always been down to choice and those who choose to bring up a downs child have my upmost respect.

[Saintandy666]

Our last born came when my Mrs was what Consultants term a "Geriatric Mother" , that means close to 40. The risks increase with older Mothers and they offered us an amniocetisis. Mrs and I had already talked about this and we declined for two reasons. 1. A level of risk that the procedure could harm the baby. 2. If tested positive for a Down's baby what were they expecting us to do? They were visibly uncomfortable when we said that we had no intention of a 'termination' and that we would love and care for baby no matter what nature had planned for us.

 

I feel very uncomfortable with the fact that there are some people who are shallow enough and would happily 'terminate' if baby had a cleft palate or other treatable problems.

 

In understanding it's a free choice I still don't actually agree with that choice.

 

I think I agree with this. The choice must be there for people whether I would want to do it myself or not.

 

I don't know what the process of getting an abortion is, but I wouldn't want it to ever be too easy to do it though. Proper advice must be given and time to think it over.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Our last born came when my Mrs was what Consultants term a "Geriatric Mother" , that means close to 40. The risks increase with older Mothers and they offered us an amniocetisis. Mrs and I had already talked about this and we declined for two reasons. 1. A level of risk that the procedure could harm the baby. 2. If tested positive for a Down's baby what were they expecting us to do? They were visibly uncomfortable when we said that we had no intention of a 'termination' and that we would love and care for baby no matter what nature had planned for us.

 

I feel very uncomfortable with the fact that there are some people who are shallow enough and would happily 'terminate' if baby had a cleft palate or other treatable problems.

 

In understanding it's a free choice I still don't actually agree with that choice.

 

Great respect.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

That's fair enough. It should always been down to choice and those who choose to bring up a downs child have my upmost respect.

 

Great respect.

 

Gents, I'm not sure if you may think our last born was Down's Syndrome? If so then my apologies as I was just explaining our mindset, we were ready for that possibility. Fortunately our only Son was born healthy.

[dune]

Gents, I'm not sure if you may think our last born was Down's Syndrome? If so then my apologies as I was just explaining our mindset, we were ready for that possibility. Fortunately our only Son was born healthy.

 

I knew what you meant.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Gents, I'm not sure if you may think our last born was Down's Syndrome? If so then my apologies as I was just explaining our mindset, we were ready for that possibility. Fortunately our only Son was born healthy.

 

As I say great respect.

[alpine_saint]

Our last born came when my Mrs was what Consultants term a "Geriatric Mother" , that means close to 40. The risks increase with older Mothers and they offered us an amniocetisis. Mrs and I had already talked about this and we declined for two reasons. 1. A level of risk that the procedure could harm the baby. 2. If tested positive for a Down's baby what were they expecting us to do? They were visibly uncomfortable when we said that we had no intention of a 'termination' and that we would love and care for baby no matter what nature had planned for us.

 

I feel very uncomfortable with the fact that there are some people who are shallow enough and would happily 'terminate' if baby had a cleft palate or other treatable problems.

 

In understanding it's a free choice I still don't actually agree with that choice.

 

I empathise with this story. My wife is 40 in a couple of months and last Saturday morning gave birth to our 4th son (so this is an intensively emotive subject for me currently). He is absolutely beautiful, but we went through all the nuchal scan/blood test/amniocentisis/possible termination drama that modern hospitals put you through with him, after they screwed it up for our 3rd son. In the end my wife simply said "sod it, I feel instinctively my babies are OK, I'm having them" and refused the amniocentisis.

[alpine_saint]

I find it strange that you are in favour of the death penalty, yet you give so much weight to an unborn embryo. A bit of consistency would be nice.

 

Jesus, you make a fool of yourself. Comparing the rights of an innocent baby with a convicted murder/terrorist/child abuser is just f**king ridiculous.

[Saintandy666]

Jesus, you make a fool of yourself. Comparing the rights of an innocent baby with a convicted murder/terrorist/child abuser is just f**king ridiculous.

 

I knew you'd say that. But if you believe life starts at conception as you do, and you believe that the right to life is absolutely sacred(as I do as well as you), you must also value everyone's right to it equally regardless of circumstance. Stop acting like pro-choice people want abortions and have glee in it, it's all about the choice.

[dune]

Jesus, you make a fool of yourself. Comparing the rights of an innocent baby with a convicted murder/terrorist/child abuser is just f**king ridiculous.

 

It's not a human being, it's just a fetus.

[Matthew Le God]

Alpine, should...

 

1) Rape victims be forced to see out the full term of a pregnancy without the option of abortion?

 

2) Women who doctors believe would put their own lives/health at risk if they see out a pregnancy not be given the option of abortion?

Edited 24 May, 2012 by Matthew Le God

[Colinjb]

I knew you'd say that. But if you believe life starts at conception as you do, and you believe that the right to life is absolutely sacred(as I do as well as you), you must also value everyone's right to it equally regardless of circumstance. Stop acting like pro-choice people want abortions and have glee in it, it's all about the choice.

 

An unborn child is innocent. People who intentionally cause death to others are most certainly not. Comparing them in any way is utterly wrong.

[Saintandy666]

An unborn child is innocent. People who intentionally cause death to others are most certainly not. Comparing them in any way is utterly wrong.

 

That's true, but if you believe in the utter sanctity of life(as I and Alpine do, our argument is over when life begins), you have to respect a murderers life as much as an innocent child's. That is what rights are about. Sometimes it isn't nice, but no exceptions.

[Deano6]

there was an american study a few years ago that found evidence to conclude that in those states were abortion had been legalised crime rates were lower

 

Of course the difference was down to the illegal abortions that were happening!

[Turkish]

That's true, but if you believe in the utter sanctity of life(as I and Alpine do, our argument is over when life begins), you have to respect a murderers life as much as an innocent child's. That is what rights are about. Sometimes it isn't nice, but no exceptions.

 

No you don't, sorry young Andy, but when you deliberately and willing take the life of another then you lose that right. Saying an innocent unborn child is the same as terrorist is ridiculous.

[trousers]

Every sperm is sacred

[Saintandy666]

No you don't, sorry young Andy, but when you deliberately and willing take the life of another then you lose that right. Saying an innocent unborn child is the same as terrorist is ridiculous.

 

It is ridiculous, yes... but that is human rights sometimes. It produces a few cases we don't like, but we must put up with them because human rights are so important.

[Turkish]

It is ridiculous, yes... but that is human rights sometimes. It produces a few cases we don't like, but we must put up with them because human rights are so important.

 

It's interesting you claim to agree with the sanctity of life yet also believe a women has the rIght to choose an abortion, to choose to end the life of their unborn child.

[Saintandy666]

It's interesting you claim to agree with the sanctity of life yet also believe a women has the rIght to choose an abortion, to choose to end the life of their unborn child.

 

Not really. As you and I clearly disagree over when life begins. I don't revel in abortions. I just believe the choice should be there for those who want to take it... or not.

[solentstars]

Alpine, should...

 

1) Rape victims be forced to see out the full term of a pregnancy without the option of abortion?

 

2) Women who doctors believe would put their own lives/health at risk if they see out a pregnancy not be given the option of abortion?

 

Sounds like the policys of a control freak,what a lot of claptrap bonehead nonsense that is.thank god that women have the right to chose and its not a easy decission for them and anyone who thinks its easy does not understand real people and 'I'm glad we will never go back back street abortions and the Victorian moralists and catholic church preaching out of date. nonsence.

 

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[Turkish]

Not really. As you and I clearly disagree over when life begins. I don't revel in abortions. I just believe the choice should be there for those who want to take it... or not.

 

So when do you think life begins Andy? Up until what point does someone have the choice if their child deserves to live or not?

[Thedelldays]

Sounds like the policys of a control freak,what a lot of claptrap bonehead nonsense that is.thank god that women have the right to chose and its not a easy decission for them and anyone who thinks its easy does not understand real people and 'I'm glad we will never go back back street abortions and the Victorian moralists and catholic church preaching out of date. nonsence.

 

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I know of plenty of 'real" people...the real working class you adore..who would not think twice about having an abortion

[norwaysaint]

So when do you think life begins Andy? Up until what point does someone have the choice if their child deserves to live or not?

 

It's a very good question. What's your opinion, Turkish? Do you have one?

[Saintandy666]

So when do you think life begins Andy? Up until what point does someone have the choice if their child deserves to live or not?

 

I don't know. But other people do have educated opinions, and I trust them. When do you think life begins and why?

[Turkish]

It's a very good question. What's your opinion, Turkish? Do you have one?

 

I am very anti abortion, especially when the person is in a relationship or has had "an accident". However, in certain circumstances I can understand them, rape being one, or if the child or mother wouldnt survive or be seriously injured by childbirth or if the child would be born with a serious illness which would mean they have a poor quality of life. At the end of the day although it's an unborn child abortion is taking a life and should only be allowed in exceptional circumstances.

[Turkish]

I don't know. But other people do have educated opinions, and I trust them. When do you think life begins and why?

 

When the baby has a heart beat, which science has proven is at around 5 weeks. At that point it has live, working organs. In the same way that you are clinically dead when your heart stops.

[Saintandy666]

When the baby has a heart beat, which science has proven is at around 5 weeks. At that point it has live, working organs. In the same way that you are clinically dead when your heart stops.

 

Death isn't when your heart stops. It's much more complex than that.

[Turkish]

Death isn't when your heart stops. It's much more complex than that.

 

Yeah i know and i knew some smart arse would say that, but when you're heart beat stops you are suffering clincal death. You also cannot survive without a beating heart, which is why i believe that life begins when it starts to beat.

[Saintandy666]

Yeah i know and i knew some smart arse would say that, but when you're heart beat stops you are suffering clincal death. You also cannot survive without a beating heart, which is why i believe that life begins when it starts to beat.

 

It wouldn't survive outside the womb though. I believe life begins when the brain kicks in properly which I believe is where the current limit lies.

[Turkish]

It wouldn't survive outside the womb though. I believe life begins when the brain kicks in properly which I believe is where the current limit lies.

 

It's still alive though. It has working organs which are essential to life.

[Saintandy666]

It's still alive though. It has working organs which are essential to life.

 

Very early signs of some, yes.

[Turkish]

Very early signs of some, yes.

 

So it's alive then, yes? If it stopped it wouldn't survive.

[Saintandy666]

So it's alive then, yes? If it stopped it wouldn't survive.

 

If it was taken out of the womb, it wouldn't survive.

[Saintandy666]

I sense this is an argument that will go round and round and round. How about we just agree to disagree and let others also do the same, choose whether they want to support it or not.

[Turkish]

If it was taken out of the womb, it wouldn't survive.

 

Isn't that the point of pregnancy? We wouldnt survive for very long naked in the freezing north Atlantic for very long, environment is relatively irrelevant. There is life, it has working organs and if it stopped it wouldn't survive.

[alpine_saint]

Andy, I dont recall saying I believe in the utter sanctity of life.

 

I do believe that terminating a viable life in order to make a more convenient lifestyle choice, especially after repeated and willful neglect (multiple abortions), is MURDER.

 

Anyway, lets clear up what I DO believe in :

 

Abortion for rape - if it can be proven that the conception was due to the rape and not due to unprotected sex with a regular partner, then yes, reluctantly I agree with it.

 

Abortion for severe disability - in some cases, such as Patau or Edwards Syndrome. For Downs Syndrome, I am not sure, and for things like gender and cleft palate, absolutely not.

 

"Reduction" - F**k right off. You wanted a baby, its not their fault they came along like number 11 busses.

 

Abortion for negligent contraception - No

 

Mulitple abortions - No, absolutely illegal except in cases where there is a congential defect with a genetic source, such as severe cystic fibrosis

 

Breaking up with a partner - F**k right off. You should both grow up and sort it out or come to an agreement over sharing responsibility.

 

When does life start ? For me, its a moving target. When a foetus becomes viable. Its about 22 weeks now, and medical advances is causing it to drop. I would set the limit at 16 weeks for an abortion.

 

Oh, has anyone else noticed the irony of wimmin that complain they should have control over their bodies but then want men to take responsibility for contraception ? Bizarre...

[Turkish]

Andy, I dont recall saying I believe in the utter sanctity of life.

 

I do believe that terminating a viable life in order to make a more convenient lifestyle choice, especially after repeated and willful neglect (multiple abortions), is MURDER.

 

Anyway, lets clear up what I DO believe in :

 

Abortion for rape - if it can be proven that the conception was due to the rape and not due to unprotected sex with a regular partner, then yes, reluctantly I agree with it.

 

Abortion for severe disability - in some cases, such as Patau or Edwards Syndrome. For Downs Syndrome, I am not sure, and for things like gender and cleft palate, absolutely not.

 

"Reduction" - F**k right off. You wanted a baby, its not their fault they came along like number 11 busses.

 

Abortion for negligent contraception - No

 

Mulitple abortions - No, absolutely illegal except in cases where there is a congential defect with a genetic source, such as severe cystic fibrosis

 

Breaking up with a partner - F**k right off. You should both grow up and sort it out or come to an agreement over sharing responsibility.

 

When does life start ? For me, its a moving target. When a foetus becomes viable. Its about 22 weeks now, and medical advances is causing it to drop. I would set the limit at 16 weeks for an abortion.

 

Oh, has anyone else noticed the irony of wimmin that complain they should have control over their bodies but then want men to take responsibility for contraception ? Bizarre...

 

That pretty much sums up my view as well.

[Ohio Saint]

I sense this is an argument that will go round and round and round. How about we just agree to disagree and let others also do the same, choose whether they want to support it or not.

 

LMAO!! This is the internettz! Logic and reason does not work here! Look it up on twitterz!

[Stubby]

If it was taken out of the womb, it wouldn't survive.

 

Many babies are aborted at an age when they could survive outside the womb.

 

And it's worth remembering that full-term babies couldn't live without the support of other humans. Whether that's in the womb or out of it seems kind of irrelevant to me.

 

Killing an unborn child seems to be exactly as morally unacceptable as killing a child after it has been born.

[Joesaint]

FWIW I hate the thought of abortions, esp when done late, and by some slappers that use it without too much thought.

 

If used early and by somone who has just really made a mistake or been forced too, it has to be OK, but still very sad.

[solentstars]

LMAO!! This is the internettz! Logic and reason does not work here! Look it up on twitterz!

agree and some of the male rubbish posted on here is laughable "murder and baby killing is over the top" like sound bites from the catholic church fanatics and fundamentalists from the usa;).

its a personal decision and the majority of women do not take abortion lightly and maybe the termination limit should be changed based on fact based evidence

thank god we don,t have backstreet abortions of the old days when it was illegal.

[alpine_saint]

agree and some of the male rubbish posted on here is laughable "murder and baby killing is over the top" like sound bites from the catholic church fanatics and fundamentalists from the usa;).

its a personal decision and the majority of women do not take abortion lightly and maybe the termination limit should be changed based on fact based evidence

thank god we don,t have backstreet abortions of the old days when it was illegal.

 

Why do you pro-choicers pervert the discussion into a black-and-white case ? Not one person on here has advocated a return to all abortion being made illegal and forcing back-street abortions, but many of us are exceptionally uneasy at the current limit and also at the way UK society views the use of abortion.

 

Oh, and I think you'll find that if you look at a wider access net-based discussion of abortion, the inflamatory language you quote is also used by women; it has nothing to do with being "male rubbish". Maybe you should avoid the pathetic cliches.

[Ohio Saint]

Why do you pro-choicers pervert the discussion into a black-and-white case ? Not one person on here has advocated a return to all abortion being made illegal and forcing back-street abortions, but many of us are exceptionally uneasy at the current limit and also at the way UK society views the use of abortion.

 

Oh, and I think you'll find that if you look at a wider access net-based discussion of abortion, the inflamatory language you quote is also used by women; it has nothing to do with being "male rubbish". Maybe you should avoid the pathetic cliches.

 

Um, And why do you pro lifers lump everyone together as one? See what I did there? Bloody annoying, isn't it.

[dingbattigger]

Mrs D here so this is a female point of view. Like ESB's good lady I was a geriatric mother for my last pregnancy. I too was offered all the tests going but declined every one. For me personally, there are no circumstances under which I would agree to an abortion. Luckily our daughter was born perfectly healthy but if that was not the case she would still have been loved and welcomed.

 

There are certain cases, such as rape, in which I think abortion is justified but as a life style choice? Forget it.

[solentstars]

Why do you pro-choicers pervert the discussion into a black-and-white case ? Not one person on here has advocated a return to all abortion being made illegal and forcing back-street abortions, but many of us are exceptionally uneasy at the current limit and also at the way UK society views the use of abortion.

 

Oh, and I think you'll find that if you look at a wider access net-based discussion of abortion, the inflamatory language you quote is also used by women; it has nothing to do with being "male rubbish". Maybe you should avoid the pathetic cliches.

 

Well has women have the babys I very much doubt men will know what their emotions and bodies go threw.its not easy decissions for women to go for a abortion and I believe in a women's right to chose based on all the current knowledge that's available based on fact.

 

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