Special K Posted 23 May, 2012 Share Posted 23 May, 2012 I said that I'd rather work for a well-run small firm than a large corporate. Doesn't that give you a clue as to the value I place on well-run small firms? So why not be more balanced in your views? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 23 May, 2012 Share Posted 23 May, 2012 Didn't think you would miss a trick to spout your boll ocks again... It's the truth Frank. Everyone who lives south of Auchtermuchty has seen it with their own eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 23 May, 2012 Author Share Posted 23 May, 2012 So why not be more balanced in your views? I think I've been reasonably balanced in my views on small companies. Some are good places to work. Some aren't. Your first post on this thread was to charge every opponent of "no fault dismissals" with knowing very little about small companies, along with a fairy story about how small businesses are well-run. And you ask me to be more balanced in my views I do not think that employees should have less rights because they happen to work for a firm of 10 people or less. I also do not agree with universal implementation of a "fire at will" culture. I also don't buy that our current employment law is to blame for people not being hired. The problem is demand. The government's policies have so far failed to create enough of it. This policy will just exacerbate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special K Posted 23 May, 2012 Share Posted 23 May, 2012 I think I've been reasonably balanced in my views on small companies. Some are good places to work. Some aren't. Your first post on this thread was to charge every opponent of "no fault dismissals" with knowing very little about small companies, along with a fairy story about how small businesses are well-run. And you ask me to be more balanced in my views I do not think that employees should have less rights because they happen to work for a firm of 10 people or less. I also do not agree with universal implementation of a "fire at will" culture. I also don't buy that our current employment law is to blame for people not being hired. The problem is demand. The government's policies have so far failed to create enough of it. This policy will just exacerbate it. And therein lies the problem with your point. A well run company. A good place to work. They are not the same thing. You appear to be confusing the two. I don't think anyone is saying current employment law is prohibitive to offering employment, more the fact that small firms need more flexibilty when they have failing staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 23 May, 2012 Author Share Posted 23 May, 2012 And therein lies the problem with your point. A well run company. A good place to work. They are not the same thing. You appear to be confusing the two. I don't think anyone is saying current employment law is prohibitive to offering employment, more the fact that small firms need more flexibilty when they have failing staff. I'm not confused. Sounds like you could be. Are you saying that it is impossible to have a well run company that is also a good place to work? You seem to be making out that the two are mutually exclusive, which isn't really the case. If the current conditions aren't prohibitive, why do small firms need more flexibility? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special K Posted 23 May, 2012 Share Posted 23 May, 2012 I'm not confused. Sounds like you could be. Are you saying that it is impossible to have a well run company that is also a good place to work? You seem to be making out that the two are mutually exclusive, which isn't really the case. If the current conditions aren't prohibitive, why do small firms need more flexibility? Don't be a ****. Of course one can be the other, it's just that one doesn't necessarily equate to the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonraker Posted 23 May, 2012 Share Posted 23 May, 2012 (edited) From my experience of working for and with small firms ( If not bering able to hire and fire at will is preventing a company expanding I suggest it may well be the owners lack of of competence or confidence as a manager and leader that is questionable and needs addressing Large companies have govenance structures, processes and staff who protect the comapny and staff so whilst a poor line manager may cause employees problems the employees have a route to redress that is not practical in small firms. The suggestion above that the Gov provide small firms with better HR and employment support would be far more positive than this Victorian approach. Edited 23 May, 2012 by moonraker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 23 May, 2012 Author Share Posted 23 May, 2012 Don't be a ****. Of course one can be the other, it's just that one doesn't necessarily equate to the other. Thanks for pointing that out. Would never have worked that out unaided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 23 May, 2012 Share Posted 23 May, 2012 From my experience of working for and with small firms ( If not bering able to hire and fire at will is preventing a company expanding I suggest it may well be the owners lack of of competence or confidence as a manager and leader that is questionable and needs addressing Large companies have govenance structures, processes and staff who protect the comapny and staff so whilst a poor line manager may cause employees problems the employees have a route to redress that is not practical in small firms. The suggestion above that the Gov provide small firms with better HR and employment support would be far more positive than this Victorian approach. More likely not wanting to take on an extra overhead at a time of failing demand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 23 May, 2012 Share Posted 23 May, 2012 I've no doubt that it happens, but I disagree that it happens "all the time". In truth, most people do a decent job. Some don't. We're talking about a tiny subset of people here. i.e. People who do a good job for 11 months and then decide to be a hellion afterwards. Happens all the time? Please. Given the tiny scale of this problem in context, removing rights from the vast majority of decent workers because of the calculated actions of a few is completely unjustifiable - especially since most firms already have instant dismissal for gross misconduct and can use existing employment law to issue warnings. If a firm genuinely can't sniff out a blagger in eleven months, that's their problem. Everybody I speak to has at least one example to quote. It takes several months to get a new employee trained up to speed and during that time they are taking away the time of an existing experienced employee. That only leaves a very short period to make a decision and getting rid means throwing away all the time invested so far. Remember that you can't make people redundant, only jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonraker Posted 23 May, 2012 Share Posted 23 May, 2012 More likely not wanting to take on an extra overhead at a time of failing demand. They really would be incompetent if they took on extra staff when direct demand for their product/service was falling, my assumed scenario was the business was growing hence demand was growing. Even in these times not all businesses are retrenching in fact in my experience small companies can often benefit in harder times as they are more agile and can react quicker to market changes than big companies. My own companies 3 biggest growth period in the last 25 years have all been at a time of a fall in overall demand in our core market, growing organically from 10 staff in 1988 to 220 today and expecting to be at 250 by the Autumn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 23 May, 2012 Author Share Posted 23 May, 2012 Everybody I speak to has at least one example to quote. It takes several months to get a new employee trained up to speed and during that time they are taking away the time of an existing experienced employee. That only leaves a very short period to make a decision and getting rid means throwing away all the time invested so far. Remember that you can't make people redundant, only jobs. Bless ya, Whitey Grandad - you never let a lack of hard facts deter you from posting. I love the way that you address the 10% of my post you feel you can answer with vague assertions like "It takes several months to get a new employee trained up to speed". The only time I've ever spent that amount of time inducting a new hire into a business is when they've come straight out of University - and in those circumstances - that's perfectly understandable. Even then, most of my post-grad padawans were delivering work inside a month. See, the trick is to employ people that you're reasonably sure are going to do a decent job. That's where interviews and reference checking come in. I simply don't accept that 3 months is the norm for assimilating a new hire into the business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 23 May, 2012 Share Posted 23 May, 2012 Bless ya, Whitey Grandad - you never let a lack of hard facts deter you from posting. I love the way that you address the 10% of my post you feel you can answer with vague assertions like "It takes several months to get a new employee trained up to speed". The only time I've ever spent that amount of time inducting a new hire into a business is when they've come straight out of University - and in those circumstances - that's perfectly understandable. Even then, most of my post-grad padawans were delivering work inside a month. See, the trick is to employ people that you're reasonably sure are going to do a decent job. That's where interviews and reference checking come in. I simply don't accept that 3 months is the norm for assimilating a new hire into the business. It depends entirely on the type of business, of course. Shelf-stacking at Tescos might not take long, paint-spraying, panel-beating, welding, electronic assembly, printed-circuit board design, all have longer periods of training even for those who claim to be experienced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 23 May, 2012 Share Posted 23 May, 2012 They really would be incompetent if they took on extra staff when direct demand for their product/service was falling, my assumed scenario was the business was growing hence demand was growing. Even in these times not all businesses are retrenching in fact in my experience small companies can often benefit in harder times as they are more agile and can react quicker to market changes than big companies. My own companies 3 biggest growth period in the last 25 years have all been at a time of a fall in overall demand in our core market, growing organically from 10 staff in 1988 to 220 today and expecting to be at 250 by the Autumn. I speak to many small companies who are having problems meeting my production demands and I ask them why they don't expand. They all say that they don't want the hastle, they don't trust the future, and who are we to tell them they are wrong? It's their business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 23 May, 2012 Share Posted 23 May, 2012 I speak to many small companies who are having problems meeting my production demands and I ask them why they don't expand. They all say that they don't want the hastle, they don't trust the future, and who are we to tell them they are wrong? It's their business. I guess you just take your orders elsewhere? That'll learn 'em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 23 May, 2012 Author Share Posted 23 May, 2012 It depends entirely on the type of business, of course. Shelf-stacking at Tescos might not take long, paint-spraying, panel-beating, welding, electronic assembly, printed-circuit board design, all have longer periods of training even for those who claim to be experienced. I accept that some jobs are more involved than others, but I don't accept that people that are experienced in all the fields you mention would take three months to get up to speed. You may have a point with manufacturing processes that are regulated by an external body, like the FAA - but generally not. The people I generally employ are computer programmers, which I think we can both agree, is a reasonably involved and technical profession. Whatever. None of that justifies stripping people of their employment rights just because you're unable to make a decision in 11 months (or 23). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 23 May, 2012 Share Posted 23 May, 2012 I guess you just take your orders elsewhere? That'll learn 'em. If only... I use a local paint company who are very good. There used to be one in Gosport who were cheap but useless. There is one on the Isle of Wight who are quite good. I thought about using them but it turned out that my regular people were using them for the stuff they couldn't handle. Oh well, perhaps I could move somewhere with a better business environment and lower overheads, France for instance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 23 May, 2012 Share Posted 23 May, 2012 I accept that some jobs are more involved than others, but I don't accept that people that are experienced in all the fields you mention would take three months to get up to speed. You may have a point with manufacturing processes that are regulated by an external body, like the FAA - but generally not. The people I generally employ are computer programmers, which I think we can both agree, is a reasonably involved and technical profession. Whatever. None of that justifies stripping people of their employment rights just because you're unable to make a decision in 11 months (or 23). In some trades it's seven years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 23 May, 2012 Author Share Posted 23 May, 2012 In some trades it's seven years. Which trades? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonraker Posted 23 May, 2012 Share Posted 23 May, 2012 In some trades it's seven years. Sounds like an apprenticeship, and a long one at that. This is not about apprenticeships or trainees, its about recruiting the right people who on their CV and through interviews and other selection processes an employer takes on to perform a particular task or range of tasks, if the employer has not established that they are qualified and trained to do the job then 11 months should be enough. I used to manage a small precession engineering factory, the guys I employed were operating their machines within a couple of hours of joining, if they couldn't do what they had claimed they would not have been invited back for a second day. In my current job we have apprentices and graduates they are normally gainfully employed for some of their time within a couple of weeks, we invest in them, mentor, coach and train them and they repay us with loyalty, staff turnover half the CIPD average for our industry, and high quality work. The other consideration is salary, if you pay peanuts you get monkeys. Whilst there are some work shy malingerers they are few most shortfalls in staff performance is due to one or more of the following: bad management, a poor working environment, a poor work place culture and low salaries note none of this is in the gift of the employee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuengirola Saint Posted 24 May, 2012 Share Posted 24 May, 2012 If only... I use a local paint company who are very good. There used to be one in Gosport who were cheap but useless. There is one on the Isle of Wight who are quite good. I thought about using them but it turned out that my regular people were using them for the stuff they couldn't handle. Oh well, perhaps I could move somewhere with a better business environment and lower overheads, France for instance? I bet you think the minimum wage is too high and an impediment to job creation as well don't you? Why do business owners whine so much? If it's too much bother why don't they just get a normal job like everyone else and let someone else take the hassle ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 24 May, 2012 Share Posted 24 May, 2012 I want to sack my postman! He is keep bringing me mails that I don't want and when i have to sign for something he is talking to me for like 20 minutes and one time even asked to use my toilets! Also he wears short shorts. Am I protected under New Rules? He is only my postman for bout 3 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 24 May, 2012 Share Posted 24 May, 2012 I bet you think the minimum wage is too high and an impediment to job creation as well don't you? Why do business owners whine so much? If it's too much bother why don't they just get a normal job like everyone else and let someone else take the hassle ? No, the benefits level is effectively higher than the minimum wage. The jobs aren't there, there's a recession on, doncha know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 24 May, 2012 Share Posted 24 May, 2012 No, the benefits level is effectively higher than the minimum wage. The jobs aren't there, there's a recession on, doncha know? What do you mean by benefits level? All benefits including housing etc... because JSA is definitely not higher than what you can get on the minimum wage. Nowhere near it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 24 May, 2012 Author Share Posted 24 May, 2012 What do you mean by benefits level? All benefits including housing etc... because JSA is definitely not higher than what you can get on the minimum wage. Nowhere near it. I think he's referring to the complete package, which would include housing benefit, council tax relief, child benefit and whatever else. I'm still interested in the answer to Fuengirola's question. Why do (some) business owners moan so much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 24 May, 2012 Share Posted 24 May, 2012 It is not in the interest of small company's to treat their workforce badly in fact if you treat them well then you will get more out of them. However if they employ ten people and one ends up being useless then that is 10% of the workforce and no employer can operate with 10% of their employees being unproductive apart from your local council. You need to address the issue quickly but to do so will invariably result in a time consuming and expensive tribunal - if you turnover £1m and it costs you £50,000 that is 5% of turnover and a lot of your time sorting it out. Employment law is a complicated tightrope that can hit small company's a lot harder than bigger ones. The point that you are missing is that nobody wants to take on bad people but why not remove the risk from doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 24 May, 2012 Share Posted 24 May, 2012 I think he's referring to the complete package, which would include housing benefit, council tax relief, child benefit and whatever else. I'm still interested in the answer to Fuengirola's question. Why do (some) business owners moan so much? Yes, in many case it's not worth going to work instead of staying at home. I was talking to a business neighbour yesterday who was complaining that a young chap had just not bothered to turn up for work leaving an expensive piece of machinery idle and a very unhappy customer. When reminded of his responsibilities he just said, 'so what, sack me, I'll get all sorts of money'. They moan because there are all sorts of costs, overheads, red tape, call it what you will, that are time-consuming and of no benefit whatsoever to the business. Why don't they quit and work for someone else? They have long-term contracts for rent, staff contracts, you name it. They can't afford to stop and they earn a pittance if they carry on. Take a look at the number of business start-ups if you want to gauge the true business environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 24 May, 2012 Share Posted 24 May, 2012 Yes, in many case it's not worth going to work instead of staying at home. I was talking to a business neighbour yesterday who was complaining that a young chap had just not bothered to turn up for work leaving an expensive piece of machinery idle and a very unhappy customer. When reminded of his responsibilities he just said, 'so what, sack me, I'll get all sorts of money'. They moan because there are all sorts of costs, overheads, red tape, call it what you will, that are time-consuming and of no benefit whatsoever to the business. Why don't they quit and work for someone else? They have long-term contracts for rent, staff contracts, you name it. They can't afford to stop and they earn a pittance if they carry on. Take a look at the number of business start-ups if you want to gauge the true business environment. I would reverse the question and say why are emplyees not more grateful that there are people prepared to start up businesses to give them jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 24 May, 2012 Share Posted 24 May, 2012 I would reverse the question and say why are emplyees not more grateful that there are people prepared to start up businesses to give them jobs. Eactly! They should pay to work for me. And bring their own coal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 24 May, 2012 Author Share Posted 24 May, 2012 I would reverse the question and say why are emplyees not more grateful that there are people prepared to start up businesses to give them jobs. Your argument is predicated on the premise that people want to work. I'll grant you, some genuinely do and I'm lucky enough to count myself among them. For most people though, it's a means to an end, nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 24 May, 2012 Share Posted 24 May, 2012 Your argument is predicated on the premise that people want to work. I'll grant you, some genuinely do and I'm lucky enough to count myself among them. For most people though, it's a means to an end, nothing more. No on the premise that the world does not owe them a living. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special K Posted 24 May, 2012 Share Posted 24 May, 2012 I bet you think the minimum wage is too high and an impediment to job creation as well don't you? Why do business owners whine so much? If it's too much bother why don't they just get a normal job like everyone else and let someone else take the hassle ? I don't see too many business owners whining, but there are plenty of others whining about this supposedly unfair proposed legislation, who, presumably are not business owners? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 24 May, 2012 Share Posted 24 May, 2012 Adam Beecroft started it all... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2148448/Cameron-accused-giving-plans-slash-business-red-tape-author-report-boosting-jobs.html?ito=feeds-newsxml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 24 May, 2012 Author Share Posted 24 May, 2012 No on the premise that the world does not owe them a living. One of the stupidest sayings ever, an oft-remembered sentiment in the fictive capitalist dream. It has not always been so. If you'd have said that to one of our hunter-gatherer forebears, he'd have laughed at you in the face, and possibly burned you for being a witch The world might not have owed them a living, but it certainly gave them life and the means to continue living it. Anyway, who are you talking about when you say "the world does not owe them a living"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 24 May, 2012 Author Share Posted 24 May, 2012 Adam Beecroft started it all... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2148448/Cameron-accused-giving-plans-slash-business-red-tape-author-report-boosting-jobs.html?ito=feeds-newsxml Just a reminder, kids. Adam Beecroft is head honcho of Wonga, the loan sharks who prey on the skint. I'm not sure he has the requisite moral perspective to be making recommendations on the rights of workers. To him, they're little people too. EDIT: (for accuracy fans) He chairs Dawn Capital, which lists Wonga amongst its portfolio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suewhistle Posted 24 May, 2012 Share Posted 24 May, 2012 Oh well, perhaps I could move somewhere with a better business environment and lower overheads, France for instance? Haaaahaaa.. Or Italy, heeeheeeee... More familiar with the latter as that's where I live, but I was genuinely laughing when I saw that bit. Cheaper land for France, and cheaper to drink yourself into oblivion in both, but lower overheads and better business environment?! Just to add a bit of non-personal experience: http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suewhistle Posted 24 May, 2012 Share Posted 24 May, 2012 I speak to many small companies who are having problems meeting my production demands and I ask them why they don't expand. They all say that they don't want the hastle, they don't trust the future, and who are we to tell them they are wrong? It's their business. Of course they don't trust the future. Current policy is destroying both demand and _confidence_. On a personal consumer level I've always been cautious and never assume income streams and as a result I've a low income but no debt whatsoever. I've got a basic guaranteed income and other discretionary stuff, and I never spend until it's safely in the bank. [Just remembered I need to chase an invoice!]. Other people have been more optimistic, and over-optimism fuelled the boom and these days I never assume a flash-car driver can actually afford it! Of course there's also the wider global perspective these days. But as people have pointed out here, some small companies are expanding. In addition expansion isn't just about adding head count, it includes premises and machinery, and at the moment the banks aren't lending, the private venture capitalists want more than a pound of flesh and interest rates don't reflect bank rate but the fact that the banks are rebuilding their balance sheets at our expense. With temporary contracts, agency staff and contractors, labour is in fact one of the most flexible resources in the whole equation. If you want effective full-time and longer term employees the businesses will have to take some responsibility. Remember, the issue is about the bad employers as well as the bad employees. The current regulations allow employers the chance to vet staff over a reasonably long period (as well as employ short term staff) and afterwards get rid of staff via DUE PROCESS. The latter is always difficult. In your anger you might want to drown the little scrote who stole your bicycle but fortunately the rule of law means you can't. I could go on longer about the economy and employment situation here in Italy and how they impact upon each other, but it would take too long. Suffice to say that an insecure work-force in an advanced economy doesn't make for growth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPTCount Posted 24 May, 2012 Share Posted 24 May, 2012 hopefully it will open the labour market up and then i can get a real job instead of doing internships, part-time & freelance work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPTCount Posted 24 May, 2012 Share Posted 24 May, 2012 Just to add a bit of non-personal experience: http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings we are top of one thing, getting credit. but 10 at protecting investors. no wonder our economy is ****ed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuengirola Saint Posted 24 May, 2012 Share Posted 24 May, 2012 I would reverse the question and say why are emplyees not more grateful that there are people prepared to start up businesses to give them jobs. You sound like that old Tart Ruth Lea from the Institute of Directors, when asked on Question Time back in the 90's, " Do you think it's right that people should have to work for 2.50 an hour? " she replied " They should be thankful they have a job " Total **** she was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 24 May, 2012 Share Posted 24 May, 2012 You sound like that old Tart Ruth Lea from the Institute of Directors, when asked on Question Time back in the 90's, " Do you think it's right that people should have to work for 2.50 an hour? " she replied " They should be thankful they have a job " Total **** she was. Why should somebody in China work in a sweatshop in China for £2.50 a day when we owe trillions and they have lent it to us? The tragedy of Spanish unemployment should make us realise that at some point China will want its people to reap the rewards of their graft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 24 May, 2012 Share Posted 24 May, 2012 One of the stupidest sayings ever, an oft-remembered sentiment in the fictive capitalist dream. It has not always been so. If you'd have said that to one of our hunter-gatherer forebears, he'd have laughed at you in the face, and possibly burned you for being a witch The world might not have owed them a living, but it certainly gave them life and the means to continue living it. Anyway, who are you talking about when you say "the world does not owe them a living"? When do you think that China and India will want to cash in on our debts? Why should their people remain in poverty. Your something for nothing society simply does not work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuengirola Saint Posted 25 May, 2012 Share Posted 25 May, 2012 Why should somebody in China work in a sweatshop in China for £2.50 a day when we owe trillions and they have lent it to us? The tragedy of Spanish unemployment should make us realise that at some point China will want its people to reap the rewards of their graft. With all due respect that has absolutely nothing to do with what i was saying, so what do we do then? Enlighten me. Do we engage in a race to the bottom? Lower wages to Asian levels, eliminate all employment rights, return to the sweated labour system of Victorian England OR Take control of the money supply by nationalising all banking not just bust banks, state control of the creation of money, taking it away from private banks, closing all tax evasion/avoidance loopholes, introducing legislation requiring that CEOs can only earn 15 times more than the lowest paid worker in the company, Introduce legislation guaranteeing full employment ( it's the states responsibility to govern for the whole country not just some of them ) A return to the mixed economy system that served us so well from 1945 till the oil crisis in the early seventies. A land value tax introduced, you cannot put land in a tax haven. The reason for the unemployment disaster in Spain is the neo liberal models failure, it just doesn't work, you will never have full employment under this system, it's impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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