syd_barrett_saint Posted 16 May, 2012 Share Posted 16 May, 2012 After reading this interesting article about how Wigan's fortunes changed for the better after switching to a fluid 3-4-3 this season (http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/05/16/wigan-stay-up-after-a-switch-to-3-4-3/), I wondered if it might suit the players we already have at the club (before bringing any additions in/letting players go)... --------------------Davis----------------------- -----------Cork----Fonte----Hooiveld------------ --Chaplow--------Schneiderlin--------------Fox-- --------------------Guly------------------------- --------Lee--------Lambert--------Lallana------- Subs: Bart, Martin, Richardson, Hammond, Puncheon, De Ridder, Sharp Complete pie in the sky I know, but I'm bored. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 16 May, 2012 Share Posted 16 May, 2012 Don't see the point in any drastic changes. There's not much wrong with how we play at the moment in terms of formation and tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 16 May, 2012 Share Posted 16 May, 2012 It won't work with those players. Good formation though. I'm a 4-2-3-1 man myself. I suppose with our current squad we could play like this Richardson Fonte Hooliveld Fox -------Cork------Schniderlin Lee.------- Guly.-----Lallana ----------Lambert-------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Appy Posted 16 May, 2012 Share Posted 16 May, 2012 It won't work with those players. Good formation though. I'm a 4-2-3-1 man myself. I suppose with our current squad we could play like this Richardson Fonte Hooliveld Fox Cork. Schniderlin Lee. Guly. Lallana Lambert To be fair when Guly played up top we seemed to adopt this formation at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmacian_saint Posted 16 May, 2012 Share Posted 16 May, 2012 The 3-4-3 formation looks interesting, syd! Would only change Cork for Schneiderlin at the back. I think Morgan is better at defensive tasks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 16 May, 2012 Share Posted 16 May, 2012 To be fair when Guly played up top we seemed to adopt this formation at times. True. Lambert could drop in and play Sharp up top as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syd_barrett_saint Posted 16 May, 2012 Author Share Posted 16 May, 2012 Don't see the point in any drastic changes. There's not much wrong with how we play at the moment in terms of formation and tactics. Nothing wrong with having an extra system up our sleeves though, in case our current one falters in the league above, right? Personally I think full backs are our weakest position, and this system kind of gets around that problem... I think Fox would be far better suited to being a wing back, considering defending isn't his major strength, and I'd love to see Chaplow bombing up and down the right as a wing back, perfect for his energetic game. Getting more 2 on 1 situations with Chaplow and Lee on one side, and Lallana and Fox on the other, would be interesting to see. And I think Guly's best position is at the tip of the diamond in a midfield four, and this formation allows that without us being too attacking, and also means we could have Guly running into the box to join Lambert to get on the end of crosses resulting from the 2 on 1s. Just some ideas to get me through a boring day.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 16 May, 2012 Share Posted 16 May, 2012 Nothing wrong with having an extra system up our sleeves though, in case our current one falters in the league above, right? Personally I think full backs are our weakest position, and this system kind of gets around that problem... I think Fox would be far better suited to being a wing back, considering defending isn't his major strength, and I'd love to see Chaplow bombing up and down the right as a wing back, perfect for his energetic game. Getting more 2 on 1 situations with Chaplow and Lee on one side, and Lallana and Fox on the other, would be interesting to see. And I think Guly's best position is at the tip of the diamond in a midfield four, and this formation allows that without us being too attacking, and also means we could have Guly running into the box to join Lambert to get on the end of crosses resulting from the 2 on 1s. Just some ideas to get me through a boring day.... No way is Chaplow a win back, no way. Richardson could do the job there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 16 May, 2012 Share Posted 16 May, 2012 if we were to play the wigan way... ------------------davis -------Martin-----fonte-----Hooiveld Richardson--------------------------Fox -------Morgan----------Cork Chappers--------Lambert----Lallana the wing backs have to cover so much ground...so will need to be quick and energetic....lambert will HAVE to hold the ball up...cork and morgan will carry on and sit in the middle of the park and the rotation will happen around them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syd_barrett_saint Posted 16 May, 2012 Author Share Posted 16 May, 2012 The 3-4-3 formation looks interesting, syd! Would only change Cork for Schneiderlin at the back. I think Morgan is better at defensive tasks. Indeed it does! To be honest, I don't think either Cork or Schneiderlin would be completely at home on the right of a back three... I would prefer Fonte on the right, Hooiveld in the center (playing the Caldwell role in the Wigan analogy - doing "the dirty work in the penalty box", and then get a new player in to play on the left of the back 3. Then I'd keep Schneiderlin in the central midfield role, with Cork as back up for several positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 16 May, 2012 Share Posted 16 May, 2012 This can work with mobile cb's and attack minded full backs. I think our cb's could cope and the system of them pulling wide would allow the full backs to push up . It's the fb's that would worry me in that system. Fox doesn't overlap enough and I'm not sure Richardson is intelligent enough positionally to handle being a wide midfielder at times and a full back when needed. Chaplow wouldn't be disciplined enough either. Nice idea though, Wigan looked great playing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syd_barrett_saint Posted 16 May, 2012 Author Share Posted 16 May, 2012 No way is Chaplow a win back, no way. Richardson could do the job there. To be honest, in this system the "wing backs" would play a role more similar to the players on the right and left of a diamond midfield, with occasional extra defensive responsibilities. Chaplow can play that position in a normal 4-4-2 diamond, so don't see why he couldn't play it here. It is a role that requires a lot of huff and puff, and Chaplow has that in spades. But then again, we are getting into Football Manager territory here ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsarum Posted 16 May, 2012 Share Posted 16 May, 2012 I thought Mark Hughes 9 - 1 formation with a change to 8- 1 formation in the second half against Man City worked quite well. This is something I believe he copied from Chelsea against v Barcelona although Chelsea changed to the 8- 1 formation much ealier in the game and sometimes employed the 9-0 formation to great effect. Although I have it on good authority that Saints were one of the first teams to employ the 9 - 1 formation in the early 70's under Ted Bates, with Mike Channon as a lone striker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 16 May, 2012 Share Posted 16 May, 2012 Wigan have improved late on without this formation too. People are always looking for some masterstroke of a formation all teams can use, but as always it's about the players you have and the best system for them. Still a fan of a good back 4 myself. but this year...this formation was a major part in some stunning victories Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 16 May, 2012 Share Posted 16 May, 2012 (edited) After reading this interesting article about how Wigan's fortunes changed for the better after switching to a fluid 3-4-3 this season (http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/05/16/wigan-stay-up-after-a-switch-to-3-4-3/), I wondered if it might suit the players we already have at the club (before bringing any additions in/letting players go)... --------------------Davis----------------------- -----------Cork----Fonte----Hooiveld------------ --Chaplow--------Schneiderlin--------------Fox-- --------------------Guly------------------------- --------Lee--------Lambert--------Lallana------- Subs: Bart, Martin, Richardson, Hammond, Puncheon, De Ridder, Sharp Complete pie in the sky I know, but I'm bored. Thoughts? Well aside from the 3-4-3, which I love as a concept but outside of Bielsa (and Martinez) doesn't seem to get a lot of outings, Cork's a terrible right back and to go with 3 you need 3 (mobile) CBs really. Also, who's going to win the ball in midfield when it's not on the right side ? Sharp's going to start more games than Lambert next season, this is my bold and probably stupid prediction. Also, as a side we have a significant weakness against pacy wide 4-3-3 and 4-5-1s, not sure how leaving the wide defenders even further up the pitch will help with that. Edited 16 May, 2012 by The9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNSUN Posted 16 May, 2012 Share Posted 16 May, 2012 I think 4-4-2 has its merits but I do like the 4-3-3/4-5-1 formation where the two wide front men can pull deep if needed. It's probably a formation better suited to away games as we have in the past, but I think it could be a good formation in the Prem, especially against the big boys. Our team needs pace though, massively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 16 May, 2012 Share Posted 16 May, 2012 I thought Mark Hughes 9 - 1 formation with a change to 8- 1 formation in the second half against Man City worked quite well. This is something I believe he copied from Chelsea against v Barcelona although Chelsea changed to the 8- 1 formation much ealier in the game and sometimes employed the 9-0 formation to great effect. Although I have it on good authority that Saints were one of the first teams to employ the 9 - 1 formation in the early 70's under Ted Bates, with Mike Channon as a lone striker Chelsea nicked it from Mourinho's Real Madrid, who nicked it from Mourinho's Internazionale who used it against Barca a couple of seasons ago in the CL semi finals, to bring the recent incarnations of it up to date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperMikey Posted 16 May, 2012 Share Posted 16 May, 2012 Interesting to see that Wigan's change in formation worked really well, but they had very lively wing-backs/wingers with bags of pace (Beausejour in particular) whereas that's not particularly something we have. Why change a winning formula though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 16 May, 2012 Share Posted 16 May, 2012 Interesting to see that Wigan's change in formation worked really well, but they had very lively wing-backs/wingers with bags of pace (Beausejour in particular) whereas that's not particularly something we have. Why change a winning formula though? The obvious answer to that would be "when it gets worked out" - we changed our winning League One formula for the Championship and we'd changed our successful autumn set up by February to address the issue of the full-backs getting caught upfield (as well as the problems and new signings in January), and started keeping more clean sheets. We'll continue to evolve, just like we'd got stale in December and got worked out before Lambert's suspension and the poor results in January. Sharp and Lambert are still building a partnership, Tadanari Lee hasn't got established yet, so I think there's plenty of potential for change within the system yet - but it will depend who we add and what the plans are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkenSaint Posted 17 May, 2012 Share Posted 17 May, 2012 After reading this interesting article about how Wigan's fortunes changed for the better after switching to a fluid 3-4-3 this season (http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/05/16/wigan-stay-up-after-a-switch-to-3-4-3/), I wondered if it might suit the players we already have at the club (before bringing any additions in/letting players go)... --------------------Davis----------------------- -----------Cork----Fonte----Hooiveld------------ --Chaplow--------Schneiderlin--------------Fox-- --------------------Guly------------------------- --------Lee--------Lambert--------Lallana------- Subs: Bart, Martin, Richardson, Hammond, Puncheon, De Ridder, Sharp Complete pie in the sky I know, but I'm bored. Thoughts? No as it has Guly in it and Lee will play left wing and Lallana would play right but it is a formation i do like as well as the attacking 451 and we would need a new system as the diamond wont work in the prem too many teams have wide fast wingers and thats what we found hard going against but yes this system could work out just need a few signings first to make it better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skintsaint Posted 17 May, 2012 Share Posted 17 May, 2012 Fox gets caught out playing left back let alone at left wingback. I guess without the ball it becomes a 541, its an interesting tactic and definitely seems to have worked in the last 3rd of the season for Wigan. Thought they used it all season myself as they were pretty dreadful for 20 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulwantsapint Posted 17 May, 2012 Share Posted 17 May, 2012 Just using current squad KD Richardson. Fonte. Hooiveld. Fox Hammond Schniderlin Cork Lambert. Lallana Sharp Subs Bart Harding Martin Chaplow Guly Chung + youth team player Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 17 May, 2012 Share Posted 17 May, 2012 Isn't 3 at the back 2 stoppers and a sweeper, now I could well see José sweeping and getting forward as a libero but I can't see Corky being a stopper (or sweeper for that matter) If you want to go 3-4-3 with our current squad you have to put José and Josh as stoppers and Morgan as sweeper/libero.It's a role he's played before at Strasbourg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syd_barrett_saint Posted 17 May, 2012 Author Share Posted 17 May, 2012 Isn't 3 at the back 2 stoppers and a sweeper, now I could well see José sweeping and getting forward as a libero but I can't see Corky being a stopper (or sweeper for that matter) If you want to go 3-4-3 with our current squad you have to put José and Josh as stoppers and Morgan as sweeper/libero.It's a role he's played before at Strasbourg. You're right, I think it would indeed work better more like this: --------------------Davis----------------------- ----------Fonte----Schneiderlin----Hooiveld------ --Richardson-----------Cork------------------Fox-- ------------------------Guly------------------------- --------Lee--------Lambert--------Lallana------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 17 May, 2012 Share Posted 17 May, 2012 (edited) Isn't 3 at the back 2 stoppers and a sweeper, now I could well see José sweeping and getting forward as a libero but I can't see Corky being a stopper (or sweeper for that matter) If you want to go 3-4-3 with our current squad you have to put José and Jos as stoppers and Morgan as sweeper/libero.It's a role he's played before at Strasbourg. Modern use depends on how many strikers you're playing against. Bielsa with Chile were ridiculously flexible around a basic 3-3-3 structure and used to play 1-3-3-3, 3-1-3-3, or sometimes 3-3-1-3 depending on where the other team was strongest. There's some stuff about them here : http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/03/24/three-man-defence-in-football-soccer/ http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/06/08/marcelo-bielsa-chile-world-cup-2010-tactics/ although it implies Bielsa always played 3-3-1-3 which is contradicted by some of the text. Against Honduras they slipped into 4 at the back without changing personnel. http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/08/08/marcelo-bielsa-tactics-athletic-bilbao/ Using the same 3 basic "defenders" and a DM flexibly works for the first two formations, using the same 4 midfield players in a 1-3 or 3-1 midfield works for the latter two. But you probably can't use the same group of players for the 1-3-3-3 and the 3-3-1-3 unless you have a very versatile midfield. Which Bielsa's Chile had. Couldn't tell you about Wigan, I haven't watched them ! Edited 17 May, 2012 by The9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smarmy Posted 17 May, 2012 Share Posted 17 May, 2012 Isn't 3 at the back 2 stoppers and a sweeper, now I could well see José sweeping and getting forward as a libero but I can't see Corky being a stopper (or sweeper for that matter) If you want to go 3-4-3 with our current squad you have to put José and Josh as stoppers and Morgan as sweeper/libero.It's a role he's played before at Strasbourg. No, I think the idea of the 3-4-3 is playing against a single striker, so you have one stopper and two more mobile defenders. IIRC one of Wigan's was a full back in a back four. I would play Hooiveld in the middle, with Fonte on the right and Fox on the left. Then the wide players in the four can be genuine midfielders, not defenders playing out of position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 17 May, 2012 Share Posted 17 May, 2012 No, I think the idea of the 3-4-3 is playing against a single striker, so you have one stopper and two more mobile defenders. IIRC one of Wigan's was a full back in a back four. I would play Hooiveld in the middle, with Fonte on the right and Fox on the left. Then the wide players in the four can be genuine midfielders, not defenders playing out of position. This is part of the issue, there's no point having a 3-4-3 when we don't have the personnel. Fox is clearly better suited to a wide position, apart from getting caught upfield and the space in behind him being a problem, a narrow starting position also negates the wide angle he has for his diagonal forward passes - if he's narrow, those passes are too straight and he concedes possession far too often. So he can't really start in a narrow back 3. To be honest even at the moment his switching of the ball is rather high risk for the possession game we play, though of course it's always good to mix it up and stay a little unpredictable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smarmy Posted 17 May, 2012 Share Posted 17 May, 2012 So the idea is that most teams just play one main striker, or no conventional striker at all, playing a no.10 as their no.9 as it were, like Barcelona with Messi or Roma with Totti a few years back. So you need an extra man in midfield to pick up the deep lying striker. 3-4-3 allows you to do that while still having two wide forwards, by sacrificing a centre back who would either be marking no-one or being dragged out of position. We would basically play the diamond but with, say, Lallana and De Ridder (I know, I know) as wide forwards as well. The two problems I would have with it for Saints would be that we don't have the defensive midfielder to sit at the base of the diamond. Morgan and Cork are fine players, but not destructive enough for me. That should be transfer target no.1 imo. And although Lambert would play the central striker brilliantly, he couldn't play in thi in a partnership with Sharp, which was starting to look good, in this system. Having said all that, I get confused watching us, as I'm not entirely sure how we are playing! It is easy on paper ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avenue Saint Posted 17 May, 2012 Share Posted 17 May, 2012 4-4-2 4-3-3 4-5-1 I can confirm these will be the formations we use next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syd_barrett_saint Posted 18 May, 2012 Author Share Posted 18 May, 2012 4-4-2 4-3-3 4-5-1 I can confirm these will be the formations we use next season. Thanks Nigel. But are you sure you should be giving this sensitive information about our tactics away so freely over the internet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avenue Saint Posted 18 May, 2012 Share Posted 18 May, 2012 Thanks Nigel. But are you sure you should be giving this sensitive information about our tactics away so freely over the internet? It's ok, Andy and I have decided this will be so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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