tombletomble Posted 15 May, 2012 Share Posted 15 May, 2012 Firstly, I apologise if this all sounds rather complicated. On Saturday whilst I was at work I discovered (1 the accountant told me by mistake, the other I asked) that two other people that do the same job as I do get paid more money for doing the same work. I was naturally slightly annoyed by this news. One of my work mates was with me when the accountant told me about the first person. He became annoyed for a different reason. He and our bosses have for a while wanted him to do the job that I am doing. However, the pay rate for his role is higher than mine and he was unwilling to move jobs for less money. A new member of staff was hired instead. This new member of staff is the person whose pay the accountant told me about. This led my to my friend handing in his notice as he was unhappy that they would not pay him the extra rate to do the job but would hire someone else and pay them more. Then yesterday evening I received a call from my manager informing me that when I go into work on Wednesday I am having a disciplinary hearing and am being fired. The reason being that I discussed the pay and criticised the management whilst in work. This doesn't seem in anyway fair to me but I know nothing about employment law. Does anyone think that this is unfair dismissal and do I have grounds for going to an employment tribunal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cat Posted 15 May, 2012 Share Posted 15 May, 2012 Depends if they view your alleged offence as Gross Misconduct under the terms and conditions of your employment. Otherwise, and if you've had no previous warnings it does seem a bit harsh. Also, I'm not sure they can tell you that you are being fired before the hearing. I'm pretty sure all they can say is that you are having a disciplinary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 15 May, 2012 Share Posted 15 May, 2012 Usually an issue of gross misconduct and summary dismmissal would be something illegal etc or in exposing confidential information to a third party. From your description its sounds nothing more than 'gossip' around the water cooler' - and whilst perhaps not good form, hardly an issue that would warrant a summary dissmissal - which means they need to take you througha formal disciplinary process... which it appars thay have not done in mentioning 'dismissal over the phone' - It will cost you about £50 but worth phoning and speaking with a solicitor today - one that specializies in employment law ato get all teh facts down and some advice on how to handle it - you will also be entitled to have a collegue who you trust present as your support and witness.. On the face of it sounds like they are trying to pull a fast one, but cant say without all the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 15 May, 2012 Share Posted 15 May, 2012 Do you belong to a Trade Union? If so, approach your Union - they are allowed to attend the hearing with you. If not, you are entitled to have a 'friend' present (a work colleague for example). If you don't belong to a Union, it might be worth having a word with ACAS - they'll often give you a rough idea of the strength or otherwise of your case. http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/RedundancyAndLeavingYourJob/Dismissal/DG_175834 http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/RedundancyAndLeavingYourJob/Dismissal/DG_173213 http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/ResolvingWorkplaceDisputes/Disciplinaryprocedures/DG_10028115 There's loads more on the DirectGov website. http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=2042 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minty Posted 15 May, 2012 Share Posted 15 May, 2012 Just about to go into a meeting but have a look at the ACAS website first as it has lots of info on it: http://www.acas.org.uk It sounds like your employer is heading straight for an automatic unfair dismissal claim so far... i'll write more after my meeting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 15 May, 2012 Share Posted 15 May, 2012 Firstly the accountant breach confidentiality, not you - I assume he is being fired as well, if not why not. The fact that you have been asked to attend a disciplinary proceeding to be fired would suggest that it was predetermined and that is a breach of process (handy for an unfair dismissal claim). Are you sure that the manager said that you will be fired or that the out come of which could be that your may be fired? There is a big differece here. Process is really important here - did they send you notice in writing? Have they provided you with evidence? You can ask for a colleague to be in attendance on your behalf to take notes, if they refuse, this is another mark against them. I would do this if i were in your position, it may help if you do actiually have to go to a tribunal. Appeal the findings - if they dismiss you or give you a warning which you believe to be unjust, appeal - they should have a process in place for this and should offer you the opportunity when presenting their findings to you. Start making notes.Write down everything you can remember that was said and by who including the phoone call by the manager. This will help if needed later as memories tend to fail over time. make sure you date the notes when you wrote them. Also see if your colleague will write out his recollection of the incident. Again this will help. Above all try to remain calm, difficult considering the circumstances, but losing your temper will not help you one bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minty Posted 15 May, 2012 Share Posted 15 May, 2012 Right, meeting over. Couple of points to pick up on: 1 - It is not illegal for employers to have a clause in the contract prohibiting you from discussing pay. If such a clause exists, then your employer does have grounds for investigating the allegation (but not jumping straight to a disciplinary), unless you can legitimately claim that you were discussing it for the purpose of ensuring that your employer was complying with the Equality Act 2010. But that would tend to mean you'd be discussing it with someone who has a different protected characteristic to you (i.e opposite sex/different ethnic origin etc) http://www.mcgrigors.com/pdfdocs/insight/27april10.pdf Of course, if such a clause DOESN'T exist, then they have no grounds to do so. Check your contract. 2 - Pay CAN be different between people who do the same job for various perfectly legal reasons. Different contracts, performance related bonus structures, incremental pay etc, etc. I don't know your specific circumstances, and you are perfectly entitled to speak to your line manager if you wish to negotiate on pay, especially if you think you have a case under the Equality Act, but don't fall into the trap of assuming that you must be paid the same as someone else doing the same job. 3 - All that said, let's get to the crux of the matter. Even if your employer DOES have a secrecy clause in your contract about discussing pay (unlikely but even so), they have a duty to fully investigate what happened, (if the company if large enough, this should be carried out by a competent manager who is NOT your line manager), and only once investigated, put any findings to you. Throughout the process, they should keep it all in writing, give you the option of being accompanied to all meetings, and make it clear exactly what the allegations against you are before any conclusion is drawn. Even if THEY don't put things in writing, make sure you DO, and keep copies of all correspondence. Employers have a duty to follow a Disciplinary and Grievance Procedure, or if they don't have one, to follow ACAS' guides as linked by BTF above. To not do so would be a virtually automatic 'unfair dismissal' at a tribunal. Focus only on what you did and said. Your friends' decision to resign without actually discussing the issue with your employer is a bit silly IMO, but is not your concern. Make a note NOW of the facts of what happened, from the first accidental mentioning of the pay, through everything else, and stick to the facts. As annoying and frustrating as it is, try to keep your emotions out of it. Also, you have the right to see any evidence that has led to the allegation of misconduct, including statements from other people, so make sure you ask for these. You should be given sufficient time and information to prepare to answer these allegations. That's probably enough for now but on the very basic face of what you've written above, it sounds like your employer is on a hiding to nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minty Posted 15 May, 2012 Share Posted 15 May, 2012 Sorry, hadn't seen CB Saint's reply before I posted mine but it mirrors a lot of mine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Tone Posted 15 May, 2012 Share Posted 15 May, 2012 All good advice you've been given, from people like Minty especially. Your main weakness would be if you lost your temper in the discussion with the accountant, or swore.That might constitute gross misconduct and warrant dismissal in itself. If not ,and you simply were part of a calm discussion there are no grounds to dismiss you unless your contract expressly forbids discussion of salary. The call from your manager ought to have been followed up by a formal letter. He ought to warn you that there is a possibility ,or even a probablilty that you may lose your job, but not a certainty. ACAS guidance is that he also ought to tell you that you are entitled to take a 'friend' with you -- usually a union rep or other employee. Most firms deny access to a solicitor as a friend. All this ought to be set out in your conditions of service .. staff handbook or similar. If you have not been at the firm long you are in big trouble , because our caring government has taken away most unfair dismissal rights for employees until you've worked for 2 years. If you have been there over 2 years though, you have a very strong case for a claim from what you have described. See a solicitor who deals with employment issues if you are not in a union. Much also depends on the size and nature of your employer. Some big foimrs wil jiust do what they like, regardless, and risk paying up compensation afterwards if they have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Tone Posted 17 May, 2012 Share Posted 17 May, 2012 Firstly, I apologise if this all sounds rather complicated. On Saturday whilst I was at work I discovered (1 the accountant told me by mistake, the other I asked) that two other people that do the same job as I do get paid more money for doing the same work. I was naturally slightly annoyed by this news. One of my work mates was with me when the accountant told me about the first person. He became annoyed for a different reason. He and our bosses have for a while wanted him to do the job that I am doing. However, the pay rate for his role is higher than mine and he was unwilling to move jobs for less money. A new member of staff was hired instead. This new member of staff is the person whose pay the accountant told me about. This led my to my friend handing in his notice as he was unhappy that they would not pay him the extra rate to do the job but would hire someone else and pay them more. Then yesterday evening I received a call from my manager informing me that when I go into work on Wednesday I am having a disciplinary hearing and am being fired. The reason being that I discussed the pay and criticised the management whilst in work. This doesn't seem in anyway fair to me but I know nothing about employment law. Does anyone think that this is unfair dismissal and do I have grounds for going to an employment tribunal? So what happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minty Posted 17 May, 2012 Share Posted 17 May, 2012 Hopefully he's still at work. Either that, or penning the letter to the employment tribunal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tombletomble Posted 17 May, 2012 Author Share Posted 17 May, 2012 Thanks for all the info that you guys provided. When I went in on Wednesday the owners had changed there minds about the disciplinary. I think they had realised that they were on fairly dodgy ground and were likely to end up in a tribunal. I think that they still want me out but unsurprisingly I'm not that keen on working for them anymore. I have started looking for new jobs and will be leaving as soon as I can find something else. Hopefully that wont take too long. Just a shame that there isn't more jobs around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 17 May, 2012 Share Posted 17 May, 2012 Do you belong to a Trade Union? If so, approach your Union - they are allowed to attend the hearing with you. If not, you are entitled to have a 'friend' present (a work colleague for example). This is not only good advice, but it's imperative that you take a witness in with you. Even if you're not in a trades union, you might have a union rep who would be willing to accompany you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 17 May, 2012 Share Posted 17 May, 2012 Thanks for all the info that you guys provided. When I went in on Wednesday the owners had changed there minds about the disciplinary. I think they had realised that they were on fairly dodgy ground and were likely to end up in a tribunal. I think that they still want me out but unsurprisingly I'm not that keen on working for them anymore. I have started looking for new jobs and will be leaving as soon as I can find something else. Hopefully that wont take too long. Just a shame that there isn't more jobs around. Whatever you do don't let them see that they've got to you. If they want you out they'll do their upmost to make your life a misery, so deflect it back in their faces by showing no sign that you've noticed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 17 May, 2012 Share Posted 17 May, 2012 (edited) Whatever you do don't let them see that they've got to you. If they want you out they'll do their upmost to make your life a misery, so deflect it back in their faces by showing no sign that you've noticed. Wouldn't that be 'constructive dismissal'? Edited 17 May, 2012 by Whitey Grandad I had constructively dismissed an 'a'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 17 May, 2012 Share Posted 17 May, 2012 Wouldn't that be 'constructive dismissl'? Proving it is another matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonnyLove Posted 17 May, 2012 Share Posted 17 May, 2012 Thanks for all the info that you guys provided. When I went in on Wednesday the owners had changed there minds about the disciplinary. I think they had realised that they were on fairly dodgy ground and were likely to end up in a tribunal. I think that they still want me out but unsurprisingly I'm not that keen on working for them anymore. I have started looking for new jobs and will be leaving as soon as I can find something else. Hopefully that wont take too long. Just a shame that there isn't more jobs around. If I were you, I would have a chat to them about a Redundancy. This way everyone wins and you get some money to tie you over till a new job comes. I'd say 6 months tax free should do it. Otherwise suggest to them that because of what happened it's constructive dismissal and you will take them to court over that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tombletomble Posted 17 May, 2012 Author Share Posted 17 May, 2012 Whatever you do don't let them see that they've got to you. If they want you out they'll do their upmost to make your life a misery, so deflect it back in their faces by showing no sign that you've noticed. This was kind of my plan. Although I hope I can find new work soon. Very little part time work suitable for me about though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohio Saint Posted 17 May, 2012 Share Posted 17 May, 2012 If they didn't give you an official warning or even discuss it with you, I doubt that they are actively going to pursue the matter and may have even dropped thoughts about trying to get you out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 17 May, 2012 Share Posted 17 May, 2012 Just seen the original posters post. Minty and CB have covered a lot of the salient points. with out knowing the status of yoiur contract and salary grades its a bit difficult to give you full advice. Are you in the private or public sector? There maybe sound reasons for salary differences . length of service in position etc. it may well be illegal tombletomble. as for saying that you are having a disciplinary hearing and you are being sacked. is just not on. They are duty bound to give you appropriate notice minimum of 7 days and the right to be accompanied. I hope there was a withness to the conversation . as a manager cannot make such threats especially pre empting any disciplianry. PM if you need any further guidance or you want to advise me of the specifics and I will advise you accordingly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 17 May, 2012 Share Posted 17 May, 2012 Johny love . constructive dismissal is hard to prove in the world of employment law. If your employers behaviour isunreasonable and that they have in effect brokewn the trust between you and them that it forces you to resign , then yes you certainly would have a case Theywould need to give you contractual notice of changes to salary etc etc the can not arbitarily change it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 17 May, 2012 Share Posted 17 May, 2012 'Compromise agreement' are the magic words to put to them. No blame, no finger pointing, no tribunal, no blabbing. You walk away with a good reference (agree the words first) and tax free money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jillyanne Posted 17 May, 2012 Share Posted 17 May, 2012 Proving it is another matter. Not if you document everything and have witness statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamster Posted 17 May, 2012 Share Posted 17 May, 2012 Do not under any circumstance attend the meeting. I know a bit about this and they cannot fire you twice. I'm afraid that you have already been fired in their eyes. It the law takes a slightly dim view on their method. Even for gross misconduct you are allowed a fair and proper hearing. You haven't got it in writing yet and you need to keep this when it eventually arrives. More later if you want. hamster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 18 May, 2012 Share Posted 18 May, 2012 Firstly, I apologise if this all sounds rather complicated. On Saturday whilst I was at work I discovered (1 the accountant told me by mistake, the other I asked) that two other people that do the same job as I do get paid more money for doing the same work. I was naturally slightly annoyed by this news. One of my work mates was with me when the accountant told me about the first person. He became annoyed for a different reason. He and our bosses have for a while wanted him to do the job that I am doing. However, the pay rate for his role is higher than mine and he was unwilling to move jobs for less money. A new member of staff was hired instead. This new member of staff is the person whose pay the accountant told me about. This led my to my friend handing in his notice as he was unhappy that they would not pay him the extra rate to do the job but would hire someone else and pay them more. Then yesterday evening I received a call from my manager informing me that when I go into work on Wednesday I am having a disciplinary hearing and am being fired. The reason being that I discussed the pay and criticised the management whilst in work. This doesn't seem in anyway fair to me but I know nothing about employment law. Does anyone think that this is unfair dismissal and do I have grounds for going to an employment tribunal? Haven't read the whole thread so apologies if this is already answered! However, this is the bit that you should pay most attention to! An employee CANNOT decide the outcome of a disciplinary meeting BEFORE the meeting has been heard! IF they have made that decision beforehand and are stupid enough to inform you of the decision beforehand, then yes, you will win at a tribunal! You need to keep a record of your boss calling you - copy of phone bill, photo of calls received page of phone etc, showing the time, length and date of the call. Then if you are fired, you HAVE to appeal against the decision following the company grievance procedure first. Bring up the phone call with the manager at that stage and get it put in writing by the notetaker! Then if they uphold the dismissal you have all you need for a tribunal. Hope it helps and isn't too late Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 18 May, 2012 Share Posted 18 May, 2012 This is not only good advice, but it's imperative that you take a witness in with you. Even if you're not in a trades union, you might have a union rep who would be willing to accompany you. To be fair, I know that almost every company disciplinary documents will state a colleague or a union rep are the only witnesses allowed. HOWEVER, legally speaking they cannot deny you the right to take ANYONE in as your witness, mum, dad, girlfriend, doctor, shrink, whatever. They put the colleague or union rep in as they should know more about the workplace. However, since the witness is a largely silent part of the process and more useful for taking notes and 'witnessing', they don't legally have to have any understanding of the workplace for the role. If they refuse you the chance to bring anyone else in to the disciplinary, make sure you get it in writing that they have refused, as this will be a black mark against them. However, one word of warning, although you can take anyone in with you, choose wisely! Ideally you want someone who can keep their cool, not interrupt and start shouting the odds and disrupting the process! You want someone who can write notes quickly, keep quiet and remember everything that was said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 18 May, 2012 Share Posted 18 May, 2012 Not if you document everything and have witness statements. Like any current employee is gonna want to sign a witness statement against their employer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dronskisaint Posted 18 May, 2012 Share Posted 18 May, 2012 (edited) I may have missed this somewhere but how long have you worked for the company? It does make a difference to your employment rights but aside from that there's some excellent advice on here and I wish you luck going ahead with it! Edit...just realised this is past being useful...apart from the good luck bit! Edited 18 May, 2012 by dronskisaint late! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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