pap Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 Look, most of the country don't like scousers. Accept it, hold a minute's silence and move on. I can well believe that. Most of the country is moronic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 Are you attributing a set of qualities to a city full of people based on the actions and deeds of a few? You did exactly the same when stating what you like about the city in your earlier post. Typical hypocrisy from a Liverpool resident though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 I can well believe that. Most of the country is moronic. So most of the country is moronic, but the bad scousers are just "a few". Think you need to look to your own logic Pap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 I refer you to post 90. Duly noted, Tim - but it hasn't really changed my opinion, because a factory full of Mr Kipling workers taking industrial action does not equate to a whole city feeling the world owes them a living. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 You're simply doing what you accuse others of - taking one piece of evidence in isolation. Must try harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 I can well believe that. Most of the country is moronic. This is a Saints message board, not a Scouse love in. Deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 Summing up, because I think I've engaged quite a few of you in debate on this now. If you replaced the word "scouser" for the word "black" in this thread, there's a good chance that many of you would have been banned. Is anti-scouse sentiment racist? Technically no, but it's not far off - and when you boil it down to what it represents ( irrational dislike of someone based on where they come from ) and how you're implementing it ( attribution of qualities to an entire group of people ) it's clear that it operates on the same level. You think it's harmless, but it does damage. I have seen people down south treat Ms pap disgustingly based on her accent, yet she is genuinely one of the nicest and most honest people you're ever likely to meet. It's one of the many consequences of the prejudices being espoused here, which is why I will always challenge these views when I see them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 I love how scouser apparently have some sort of cheeky, chappy really really funny humour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 Summing up, because I think I've engaged quite a few of you in debate on this now. If you replaced the word "scouser" for the word "black" in this thread, there's a good chance that many of you would have been banned. Is anti-scouse sentiment racist? Technically no, but it's not far off - and when you boil it down to what it represents ( irrational dislike of someone based on where they come from ) and how you're implementing it ( attribution of qualities to an entire group of people ) it's clear that it operates on the same level. You think it's harmless, but it does damage. I have seen people down south treat Ms pap disgustingly based on her accent, yet she is genuinely one of the nicest and most honest people you're ever likely to meet. It's one of the many consequences of the prejudices being espoused here, which is why I will always challenge these views when I see them. Now a different can of worms is opening based on the generalised judgements made by people who hear an accent. The thick/stupid/moaning midlander, the aggresive Glasweigan, the friendly Geordie, the Cockney wideboy, the Welsh tenor etc. Certain areas of the country do elicit these stereotype.... just as you get with the self righteous/scrounging scouser. Sadly, all stereotype are based on some root fact. And the behaviour of large sections of Liverpudlians have perpetuated these stereotypes, particularly recently. Is it racist? I would say not, it is something that transcends race. Is it an irrational hatred? No, most people do not hate others because they have a different accent to theirs, but certain preconceptions will occur. Is that wrong? Well, it isn't right as it is missleading in terms of how you will judge someone, but wrong? No, it's just part of the cultural fabric of this country. The diversity that exists within is valuable, we are all different and the sad truth is that people do exist who provoke and continue the sterotypes in the first place. So, is there any real damage being done? Depends how sensitive you are... it only tends to be the extremes of the population that either take these things seriously or react to the extremes in kind. Lowering yourself to the lowest common denominator will never reflect kindly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Charming Man Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 Summing up, because I think I've engaged quite a few of you in debate on this now. If you replaced the word "scouser" for the word "black" in this thread, there's a good chance that many of you would have been banned. Is anti-scouse sentiment racist? Technically no, but it's not far off - and when you boil it down to what it represents ( irrational dislike of someone based on where they come from ) and how you're implementing it ( attribution of qualities to an entire group of people ) it's clear that it operates on the same level. You think it's harmless, but it does damage. I have seen people down south treat Ms pap disgustingly based on her accent, yet she is genuinely one of the nicest and most honest people you're ever likely to meet. It's one of the many consequences of the prejudices being espoused here, which is why I will always challenge these views when I see them. Bloody hell. You really have been living up there for too long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 Summing up, because I think I've engaged quite a few of you in debate on this now. If you replaced the word "scouser" for the word "black" in this thread, there's a good chance that many of you would have been banned. Is anti-scouse sentiment racist? Technically no, but it's not far off - and when you boil it down to what it represents ( irrational dislike of someone based on where they come from ) and how you're implementing it ( attribution of qualities to an entire group of people ) it's clear that it operates on the same level. You think it's harmless, but it does damage. I have seen people down south treat Ms pap disgustingly based on her accent, yet she is genuinely one of the nicest and most honest people you're ever likely to meet. It's one of the many consequences of the prejudices being espoused here, which is why I will always challenge these views when I see them. You absolute scouser! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 This is a Saints message board, not a Scouse love in. Deal with it. "We only hate Scouse, we only hate Scouse, we're not racist, we only hate scouse"................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 God, I do hope this thread has become a wind up, because I'd hate to think there really are such ignorant posters amongst our fan base. Talk about typical Scousers has to be some kind of joke. It is a massive, diverse area with all sorts of people. Criminals, scroungers, decent people, friendly people, muppets, chavs, hard working family people. In fact it's a bit like Southampton really, I've meet some right planks from Southampton. On the whole I have found the Scousers I've met to be second only to Dubliners in terms of friendship and hospitality, but then I've never meet a "typical Scouser", just dozens of different people from Liverpool. I really dont recongnise the picture painted on here.They have a sense of community and family that just does not exist in other areas.I would much rather spend an evening in the pub with a few scousers, than some of the bores on here. PS, I presume Rickie Lambert doesn't qualify as a "typical Scouser" because he plays for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohio Saint Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 God, I do hope this thread has become a wind up, Our season has finished, the trolls need something to type. I could have saved you a lot of typing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Tone Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 Spent 7 years living on the outskirts of Manchester, when I was quite a bit younger, so was brought to view Liverpudlians in much the same way as we do Portsmouth people. The antipathy between the cities is similar. I have to say that the Suarez affair and this booing has merely confirmed my stereotype Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 God, I do hope this thread has become a wind up, because I'd hate to think there really are such ignorant posters amongst our fan base. Talk about typical Scousers has to be some kind of joke. It is a massive, diverse area with all sorts of people. Criminals, scroungers, decent people, friendly people, muppets, chavs, hard working family people. In fact it's a bit like Southampton really, I've meet some right planks from Southampton. On the whole I have found the Scousers I've met to be second only to Dubliners in terms of friendship and hospitality, but then I've never meet a "typical Scouser", just dozens of different people from Liverpool. I really dont recongnise the picture painted on here.They have a sense of community and family that just does not exist in other areas.I would much rather spend an evening in the pub with a few scousers, than some of the bores on here. PS, I presume Rickie Lambert doesn't qualify as a "typical Scouser" because he plays for us. "Calm down, calm down, calm down, calm down". This thread has got me looking forward to playing Liverpool next season, forgot how much fun it was winding them up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 God, I do hope this thread has become a wind up, because I'd hate to think there really are such ignorant posters amongst our fan base. Talk about typical Scousers has to be some kind of joke. It is a massive, diverse area with all sorts of people. Criminals, scroungers, decent people, friendly people, muppets, chavs, hard working family people. In fact it's a bit like Southampton really, I've meet some right planks from Southampton. On the whole I have found the Scousers I've met to be second only to Dubliners in terms of friendship and hospitality, but then I've never meet a "typical Scouser", just dozens of different people from Liverpool. I really dont recongnise the picture painted on here.They have a sense of community and family that just does not exist in other areas.I would much rather spend an evening in the pub with a few scousers, than some of the bores on here. PS, I presume Rickie Lambert doesn't qualify as a "typical Scouser" because he plays for us. People are just cherry-picking to suit their argument. That's why there is no mention of Rickie, because his phenomenal success, determination and hunger for the game obliterates several claims on here in one swift stroke. Probably also why people seem to have conveniently forgotten the time the Grand National was called off, when the local people took strangers into their homes who otherwise wouldn't have had a place to stay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackanorySFC Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 God, I do hope this thread has become a wind up, because I'd hate to think there really are such ignorant posters amongst our fan base. Talk about typical Scousers has to be some kind of joke. It is a massive, diverse area with all sorts of people. Criminals, scroungers, decent people, friendly people, muppets, chavs, hard working family people. In fact it's a bit like Southampton really, I've meet some right planks from Southampton. On the whole I have found the Scousers I've met to be second only to Dubliners in terms of friendship and hospitality, but then I've never meet a "typical Scouser", just dozens of different people from Liverpool. I really dont recongnise the picture painted on here.They have a sense of community and family that just does not exist in other areas.I would much rather spend an evening in the pub with a few scousers, than some of the bores on here. PS, I presume Rickie Lambert doesn't qualify as a "typical Scouser" because he plays for us. If Rickie Lambert boo'd the national anthem I'd never want him to play for our club again. Scousers (LFC fans in particular) have a victim mentality, perfectly illustrated by our resident scouser on here. Yeah I'm generalising but I can only go by scousers I've met and comments on websites like the Liverpool Echo. If you really want a laugh check out the RAWK forum (Red & White Kop), Man U fan at work pointed it out to me and I scanned through it. I know we have some mental posters (see the 5 year plan thread) but I honestly never thought football fans could be as blindly insane as LFC fans (Suarez, King Kenny, national anthem, Hillsborough, Heysel etc), if you have a spare 10 minutes onyour lunch break or whatever and fancy a laugh check it out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 (edited) People are just cherry-picking to suit their argument. That's why there is no mention of Rickie, because his phenomenal success, determination and hunger for the game obliterates several claims on here in one swift stroke. It doesnt though and it undermines your argument to claim it does. Areas and countries have prevalent traits and characteristics. You wouldnt claim the SE of England is identical socially and policitically to the East of End of Glasgow. Of course not every individual exhibits the characteristics associated with a region. The fact that Nigel Adkins and Rickie Lambert are successful scousers (and have moved away from their origins) doesnt prove or disprove anything- anymore than being able to find a lad born in Mayfair who turned out not to be a prominent hedge fund trader and is unemployed living in a squat proves that Mayfair is a dive. Edited 8 May, 2012 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 Probably also why people seem to have conveniently forgotten the time the Grand National was called off, when the local people took strangers into their homes who otherwise wouldn't have had a place to stay. When I was a teenager I was hitching from Glasgow to Liverpool because I wanted to see Penny Lane and places to do with The Beatles. A guy gave me a lift and asked where I was staying (as it was late). Said no idea, as I had little money. He then put me up for the night. He was on the way back from the hospital after visiting his wife who had complications in pregnacy. I remember sitting there drinking with him, thinking he could be a sausage jockey or a nonce, and here was I, a fresh faced 17 year old, he'd never met before. Yet, he was great , a few cans of beer, a bed for the night, a breakfast in the morning and then he dropped me off at the bus stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 It doesnt though and it undermines your argument to claim it does. Areas and countries have prevalent traits and characteristics. You wouldnt claim the SE of England is identical socially and policitically to the East of End of Glasgow. Of course not every individual exhibits the characteristics associated with a region. The fact that Nigel Adkins and Rickie Lambert are successful scousers (and have moved away from their origins) doesnt prove or disprove anything. Ah, c'mon - it proves a couple of claims wrong right off the bat - namely, that all scousers have a chip on their shoulder or that they wallow in self-pity and victim status. Rickie's an isolated example picked because he's in our team and the hugely successful golden-booted elephant in the room. Without wanting to turn this into an interminable enumeration of little Liverpool urban achievers, this point specifically is smashed by all the Liverpudlians who have risen to the top of their field. Look up famous people from Liverpool. There are a lot of them, and you'll be amazed that some are even scousers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 If you really want a laugh check out the RAWK forum (Red & White Kop), Man U fan at work pointed it out to me and I scanned through it. I know we have some mental posters (see the 5 year plan thread) but I honestly never thought football fans could be as blindly insane as LFC fans (Suarez, King Kenny, national anthem, Hillsborough, Heysel etc), if you have a spare 10 minutes onyour lunch break or whatever and fancy a laugh check it out! Their blind loyalty to King Kenny is exactly the same as ours to Matt Le God, no difference what so ever. Same with Hillsborough, had the same thing happened to us at Villa Park in '03, I'm pretty sure we'd react in the same way.As for Suarez, every club defends the indefensable. Didn't we sing that Bradley Wright Philiips robs from the Skates. Once you start using a Man Utd fan in your arguement against Liverpool, it's not really objective is it. I bet there's plenty of Skates who can point to threads or posters on here, and laugh with their friends who support someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 Ah, c'mon - it proves a couple of claims wrong right off the bat - namely, that all scousers have a chip on their shoulder or that they wallow in self-pity and victim status. Rickie's an isolated example picked because he's in our team and the hugely successful golden-booted elephant in the room. Without wanting to turn this into an interminable enumeration of little Liverpool urban achievers, this point specifically is smashed by all the Liverpudlians who have risen to the top of their field. Look up famous people from Liverpool. There are a lot of them, and you'll be amazed that some are even scousers. No-one claimed "all scousers have a chip on their shoulder etc" (well I didnt anyway). There are many good and talented scousers. It does however, imo have a much higher proportion of people who will thieve, scam and have an 'owed something' victim mentality' than the national average. Pretty harsh I know, but my honest opinion based in factual experience. Maybe my experience is aberrant but the general perception of Liverpool nationwide suggests not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 Ah, c'mon - it proves a couple of claims wrong right off the bat - namely, that all scousers have a chip on their shoulder or that they wallow in self-pity and victim status. Rickie's an isolated example picked because he's in our team and the hugely successful golden-booted elephant in the room. Without wanting to turn this into an interminable enumeration of little Liverpool urban achievers, this point specifically is smashed by all the Liverpudlians who have risen to the top of their field. Look up famous people from Liverpool. There are a lot of them, and you'll be amazed that some are even scousers. So it's ok you for you to generalise about Liverpool and Scousers in a positive way, but get all precious when it's clear that others don't feel quite the same way. Have you every wondered why there isn't the same dislike of Brummies, Geordies, Bristolians, Yorkshiremen, even Mancs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 Summing up, because I think I've engaged quite a few of you in debate on this now. If you replaced the word "scouser" for the word "black" in this thread, there's a good chance that many of you would have been banned. Is anti-scouse sentiment racist? Technically no, but it's not far off - and when you boil it down to what it represents ( irrational dislike of someone based on where they come from ) and how you're implementing it ( attribution of qualities to an entire group of people ) it's clear that it operates on the same level. You think it's harmless, but it does damage. I have seen people down south treat Ms pap disgustingly based on her accent, yet she is genuinely one of the nicest and most honest people you're ever likely to meet. It's one of the many consequences of the prejudices being espoused here, which is why I will always challenge these views when I see them. Must be said though, it is a filthy accent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Charming Man Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 Must be said though, it is a filthy accent. Love a mild Scouse accent on a tasty bird. Saucy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
explorer saint Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 Love a mild Scouse accent on a tasty bird. Saucy. You are joking was up at bar once in Liverpool and this lovely bird moved in to oder a drink she looked fab until she opened her gob sounded like a terydactactyl on speed ! but to be honest married a bird from Cheshire you know proper posh me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 So it's ok you for you to generalise about Liverpool and Scousers in a positive way, but get all precious when it's clear that others don't feel quite the same way. Have you every wondered why there isn't the same dislike of Brummies, Geordies, Bristolians, Yorkshiremen, even Mancs? I'm quite happy to admit that I have met people who have fit some of the stereotypes pretty neatly, but they're few and far between. So all things being equal, what do I assess my opinion on? The vast number of decent personal and professional relationships I have cultivated in the 18 years I've been here, or the few nutters that tick all of the scouser stereotype boxes? As to your second question, the answers are myriad - and certain Liverpudlians (e.g. Derek Hatton) have their share of the blame in the p*ss-poor reputation that the city has developed. However, I think they have a right to be equally vocal about the way that they have been treated, especially over Hillsborough. The poisonous stories about Liverpool FC fans looting from their dead did incalculable damage to the reputation of the city. I have to wonder if any city would escape such charges unreviled. Can you honestly say that the portrayal in the media was balanced, especially in the 80s? You could either have a destitute scouser ( Yosser, Boys from the Black Stuff ), a family of benefit-scrounging scousers ( Bread ) or a whole estate full of permed, destitute, murdering and religious cult scousers ( Brookie RIP ). Let's not forget that the Government considered evacuating the place after the 1981 riots. I'm not saying that they haven't brought some of this upon themselves, because there were always different choices to be made. But equally, they have been crapped on, either through economic irrelevance after dock containerisation, massive cover-ups like Hillsborough or to be so irrelevant to a government's interests that shutdown was apparently an option. There is an element of pre-judgment that goes on with Liverpool that doesn't happen in the other places you mention, people actively looking to confirm the stereotype. If we were being truly even handed, and judging cities on the relative heinousness of their population's acts, that'd be one thing. People are getting murdered left right and centre in London and Birmingham - yet we don't make assumptions about inhabitants of those cities. Yet something happens in Liverpool, like the Jamie Bulger murder, and it all seems to go into the "Liverpool is sh*t and full of scumbags" ledger. Whatever, the antipathy is largely unjustified and based on very little experience, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 (edited) I'm quite happy to admit that I have met people who have fit some of the stereotypes pretty neatly, but they're few and far between. So all things being equal, what do I assess my opinion on? The vast number of decent personal and professional relationships I have cultivated in the 18 years I've been here, or the few nutters that tick all of the scouser stereotype boxes? As to your second question, the answers are myriad - and certain Liverpudlians (e.g. Derek Hatton) have their share of the blame in the p*ss-poor reputation that the city has developed. However, I think they have a right to be equally vocal about the way that they have been treated, especially over Hillsborough. The poisonous stories about Liverpool FC fans looting from their dead did incalculable damage to the reputation of the city. I have to wonder if any city would escape such charges unreviled. Can you honestly say that the portrayal in the media was balanced, especially in the 80s? You could either have a destitute scouser ( Yosser, Boys from the Black Stuff ), a family of benefit-scrounging scousers ( Bread ) or a whole estate full of permed, destitute, murdering and religious cult scousers ( Brookie RIP ). Let's not forget that the Government considered evacuating the place after the 1981 riots. I'm not saying that they haven't brought some of this upon themselves, because there were always different choices to be made. But equally, they have been crapped on, either through economic irrelevance after dock containerisation, massive cover-ups like Hillsborough or to be so irrelevant to a government's interests that shutdown was apparently an option. There is an element of pre-judgment that goes on with Liverpool that doesn't happen in the other places you mention, people actively looking to confirm the stereotype. If we were being truly even handed, and judging cities on the relative heinousness of their population's acts, that'd be one thing. People are getting murdered left right and centre in London and Birmingham - yet we don't make assumptions about inhabitants of those cities. Yet something happens in Liverpool, like the Jamie Bulger murder, and it all seems to go into the "Liverpool is sh*t and full of scumbags" ledger. Whatever, the antipathy is largely unjustified and based on very little experience, imo. Thanks for the detailed replied. For what it's worth and in all seriousness, I like Liverpool, a city full of character, most do know their football and is far more interesting place to go than the current identikit city centres that are found in many other comparable cities. Going back to the football side of it, I think a lot of Liverpool fans (and to a lesser extent Everton fans) need to take a step back and start trying to enjoy their football again without everything having to be a great political statement, or showing the world how big the chip on their shoulder is. Edited 8 May, 2012 by Sour Mash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 I recall in the mid nineties being lost on our way to the Anfield. Asked a random scouser who told us he was going - we parked up and he then drove us to the ground in his van which I know made him late because I watched him turn round. I admired that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edprice1984 Posted 8 May, 2012 Share Posted 8 May, 2012 I live and work in Liverpool and have been here since 1994. As a consequence, I've probably come into many more Liverpudlians than yourself, enough to be able dismiss your blanket claim that all scousers wallow in self-pity. I appreciate that your father's family may be a family of whiners, but last time I checked, we had a population of around half a million here. You're scaling up your own limited experience to prove a point, and doing it rather badly. I agree it was a blanket statement, sorry about that. I would say that most of the Liverpool fans are reasoned and sensible but unfortunately a very vocal minority do let the rest of the club and to a point, the city down. Your defence of them is fair enough, but you must see that they really don't help themselves. An element of false outrage at anything that is a criticism of the city...they was a public outcry when papers indicating that members of the cabinet in the early 80's advocated 'managed decline'. It was 30 years ago for f**** sake! and Maggie shouted those voices down. It was a nothing news story, but it played into the hands of those who like the image of 'everyone is against us'. Liverpool is a fantastic city with lots going for it. Brilliant music scene, incredible architecture, mainly friendly people...it has its share of muppets but everywhere does. I love going back there to see family, but I am glad I don't live there. It is the north after all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 I see no-one has yet commented how Liverpool council are trying to currently shaft Southampton Docks out of its cruise liner business. Liverpool Docks took EU and Government funding to redevelop part of their facilites with the condition it could not be used for cruise liner turn-around since Southamptons facilities are privately funded and developed, and they now want the exclusion removed without returning the funding for no better reason as far as I can tell than "its Liverpool".......... Tell me how this wasnt the plan from the start, pap, and how this doesnt add to the theiving scumbag Scouser mythology..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 I see no-one has yet commented how Liverpool council are trying to currently shaft Southampton Docks out of its cruise liner business. Liverpool Docks took EU and Government funding to redevelop part of their facilites with the condition it could not be used for cruise liner turn-around since Southamptons facilities are privately funded and developed, and they now want the exclusion removed without returning the funding for no better reason as far as I can tell than "its Liverpool".......... Tell me how this wasnt the plan from the start, pap, and how this doesnt add to the theiving scumbag Scouser mythology..... I have no idea if this was the plan from the start, but honestly wouldn't be surprised if it was. See this sort of thing all the time in business - a small project being used to smuggle in larger long-term objectives. Frankly, I would be amazed if this wasn't at the back of their minds when they took the funding. I believe they have paid funding back to one of the parties. I'm not so sure how this shafts Southampton out of its cruise liner facilities. It's not like the two ports are very close together, and it wouldn't be a bad thing to have a point of departure in the North. I suppose the only way that Liverpool could actually shaft Southampton's business is if all the people who would have gone from Southampton suddenly decide to go to Liverpool instead. Do you think that is likely to happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 I suppose the only way that Liverpool could actually shaft Southampton's business is if all the people who would have gone from Southampton suddenly decide to go to Liverpool instead. Do you think that is likely to happen? More the case that Liverpool docks is able to offer the cruise companies artifically low rates for docking facilities because its been paid for by taxpayers money - as opposed to being a commercially funded operation in Southampton. Remeber not just southampton but all the cruise ports, Teeside, Dover et al objected to Liverpool doing this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Remeber not just southampton but all the cruise ports, Teeside, Dover et al objected to Liverpool doing this Yep. Because its theft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Charming Man Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Yep. Because its theft. And a ridiculous use of taxpayers money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 More the case that Liverpool docks is able to offer the cruise companies artifically low rates for docking facilities because its been paid for by taxpayers money - as opposed to being a commercially funded operation in Southampton. Remeber not just southampton but all the cruise ports, Teeside, Dover et al objected to Liverpool doing this My personal preference would be for Liverpool to pay all of the money back to the government, a preference I've expressed before. That would remove this taxpayer cash argument and the cities would be able to compete on a level playing field. As for other port cities objecting - part of that is down to the taxpayer funding, but only part. I suspect the main problem from all competing ports is that when stacked up against Liverpool as a visitor attraction, all of the places you mention look decidedly ordinary by comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 My personal preference would be for Liverpool to pay all of the money back to the government, a preference I've expressed before. That would remove this taxpayer cash argument and the cities would be able to compete on a level playing field. As for other port cities objecting - part of that is down to the taxpayer funding, but only part. I suspect the main problem from all competing ports is that when stacked up against Liverpool as a visitor attraction, all of the places you mention look decidedly ordinary by comparison. Aahhhhhhhhh. There's the detestable arrogant self-absorbed Liverpool mentality we all hate that we have been looking for in you.... Finally its raised its head.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Aahhhhhhhhh. There's the detestable arrogant self-absorbed Liverpool mentality we all hate that we have been looking for in you.... Finally its raised its head.. poor old liverpool yet again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Charming Man Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Next time I go to Liverpool, I'll be sure to lay a wreath in memory of their failed attempt to steal the cruise industry from us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 I'm not so sure how this shafts Southampton out of its cruise liner facilities. It's not like the two ports are very close together, and it wouldn't be a bad thing to have a point of departure in the North. It's not commercially viable to have two 'home' ports in that way. If the boats go to Liverpool and Liverpool only and allow the cruise companies to save a bit on mooring fees, they will go to Liverpool. The location of the port is of little consequence to those who go on the cruises, they will just simply go to the port offering the service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Next time I go to Liverpool, I'll be sure to lay a wreath in memory of their failed attempt to steal the cruise industry from us. It's still very much ongoing, the cruise companies wanted to (and still retain an interest, future depending in...) purchase the land for the docking point for Solent Flour Mill. But the potential of a switch to Liverpool has kept this on the backburner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 (edited) I suspect the main problem from all competing ports is that when stacked up against Liverpool as a visitor attraction, all of the places you mention look decidedly ordinary by comparison. But Liverpool isnt trying to use the money to host cruise ships for visits as part of an itinerary, they can already do that, thats what the money was for. Strangely, despite your assurances about how fantastic it is, very few people want to go on cruises with Liverpool as one of the stops. What Peel (owned by a billionaire) and the City Council want to do is break all their previous undertakings and use the money to turnaround ships - ie have cruises starting and finishing in Liverpool. People dont book a cruise to St Petersburg or the Canaries because the Liver Building looks nice when lit up (true of Toxteth as well). Edited 9 May, 2012 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Aahhhhhhhhh. There's the detestable arrogant self-absorbed Liverpool mentality we all hate that we have been looking for in you.... Finally its raised its head.. Not actually sure that's an unreasonable statement, Alps. Perhaps you can illuminate us with all the visitor attractions in Teeside, Dover and Southampton. Y'know, maybe try to prove an argument wrong before you dish out the insults Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 But Liverpool isnt trying to use the money to host cruise ships for visits as part of an itinerary, they can already do that, thats what the money was for. They want to break all their previous undertakings and use the money to turnaround ships - ie have cruises starting and finishing in Liverpool. People dont book a cruise to St Petersburg or the Canaries because the Liver Building looks nice when lit up (true of Toxteth as well). Time will tell on whether any business is "stolen", or whether there is enough demand to have two cruise ports. Would you still object if all the public money was paid back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Not actually sure that's an unreasonable statement, Alps. Perhaps you can illuminate us with all the visitor attractions in Teeside, Dover and Southampton. Y'know, maybe try to prove an argument wrong before you dish out the insults but people don't book cruises from southampton because they like the place...it is a start and finishing point....also, an hour or so from london (like it or not, that matters) and on the south so at least a day or so closer to the warmer climates...(days, cost money) if liverpool are using our money to undercut my city....not really happy about it....because if live pool was such a wonderful place, they would attract people through their wonderful tourism and attractions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 (edited) Would you still object if all the public money was paid back? Its still dishonest - because essentially you have used taxpayers cash as risk capital in building a facility and then determining demand. If it takes off and you can turn a profit you pay back the government cash and take the profits; if it turns out to be a turkey you leave it as a public liability. Peel Ports (run by a billionaire from his tax shelter in the IOM) have a very unhealthy relationship with Liverpool City Council in that they front his waterfront development ideas, securing government funding and lobbying for approval, he takes the benefits. Edited 9 May, 2012 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 but people don't book cruises from southampton because they like the place...it is a start and finishing point....also, an hour or so from london (like it or not, that matters) and on the south so at least a day or so closer to the warmer climates...(days, cost money) if liverpool are using our money to undercut my city....not really happy about it....because if live pool was such a wonderful place, they would attract people through their wonderful tourism and attractions As I've said before, my preference would be for them to pay back all of the money - and that may still happen. An independent arbiter will decide the amount that Liverpool will need to pay back. At the end of that process, when Liverpool has paid back the money, what complaints are you going to have left? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 As I've said before, my preference would be for them to pay back all of the money - and that may still happen. An independent arbiter will decide the amount that Liverpool will need to pay back. At the end of that process, when Liverpool has paid back the money, what complaints are you going to have left? lets see if they do first maybe, they should tear down any building they have built with tax payers money first if this very thing liverpool was doing was being done by someone connected to the tory party..you would be going absolutely mental Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 lets see if they do first I think they will. Joe Anderson has already gone on record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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