Matthew Le God Posted 11 May, 2012 Share Posted 11 May, 2012 Can't beat a club in a city with two football clubs. Yes, they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 11 May, 2012 Share Posted 11 May, 2012 (edited) - Nottingham is a two team city. - Nottingham has Derby, Leicester, Notts County, Peterborough, Coventry, Birmingham, Aston Villa, West Brom, Sheffield United, Rotherham, Lincoln, Northampton, Milton Keynes, Wolverhampton, Walsall, Stoke, Port Vale and a few others all relatively close to it. - Southampton has 1) Bournemouth and 2) Pompey fighting for a share of the fanbase. .....but Forest despite all this competition gets gates broadly the same as us. Why is that again? I know you are going to answer with the miniscule variances in gates between us and Forest but it will mean fu ck all from you as you think we get bigger gates than Everton. By the way Port Vale might as well be on the frigging moon as far as sharing fans with NOTTINGHAM FOREST goes. Have you ever turned your computer off and gone outside? Seriously? There's a big world out there. Go on. Log off. Edited 11 May, 2012 by CB Fry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 11 May, 2012 Share Posted 11 May, 2012 .....but Forest despite all this competition gets gates broadly the same as us. Why is that again? So do you think Forest are a similarly sized club to Southampton? I do. Yes, their city is bigger, but Saints have the advantage and make up the difference because they have far less competition from other local clubs than Forest do. So can draw more on the surrounding population in a way that would be difficult for Forest due to the proximity of a huge number of rival clubs compared to just Bournemouth and Portsmouth for Saints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 11 May, 2012 Share Posted 11 May, 2012 Yes, they did. Which season did we get bigger gates than Everton? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 11 May, 2012 Share Posted 11 May, 2012 Which season did we get bigger gates than Everton? You need to go back and re-read my points about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 11 May, 2012 Share Posted 11 May, 2012 So do you think Forest are a similarly sized club to Southampton? I do. Yes, their city is bigger, but Saints have the advantage and make up the difference because they have far less competition from other local clubs than Forest do. So can draw more on the surrounding population in a way that would be difficult for Forest due to the proximity of a huge number of rival clubs compared to just Bournemouth and Portsmouth for Saints. Boll ocks. Simply ********. More people in Nottingham are more likely to support a top four Forest than a top four Saints is going to attract more people from Weymouth. Despite all this supposed competition Forest get the same gates as us. Why you think they couldn't grow to the same level as your projected exponential growth for Saints I will never know. Especially as loads of people live in Nottingham and NONE OF THEM are undecided about whether to support West Brom or Port Vale. None of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 11 May, 2012 Share Posted 11 May, 2012 You need to go back and re-read my points about it. Which season did we get bigger gates than Everton? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 11 May, 2012 Share Posted 11 May, 2012 Which season did we get bigger gates than Everton? When did I say we did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 11 May, 2012 Share Posted 11 May, 2012 More people in Nottingham are more likely to support a top four Forest than a top four Saints is going to attract more people from Weymouth. So if someone living in Weymouth wanted to see some Premier League football where would they go? Are you suggesting they would ignore a top four Saints team despite it being the closest Premier League team to them? Why would they do that? Despite all this supposed competition Forest get the same gates as us. Do they? They averaged fewer home fans this season in the Championship than Saints did in League One. Why you think they couldn't grow to the same level as your projected exponential growth for Saints I will never know. See post #905 Especially as loads of people live in Nottingham and NONE OF THEM are undecided about whether to support West Brom or Port Vale. None of them. But if they want to from areas outside Nottingham, they have a huge number of teams they are competing with rival teams for. Compare that to just Bournemouth and Portsmouth for Saints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 11 May, 2012 Share Posted 11 May, 2012 When did I say we did? When did we get bigger gates than Everton? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 11 May, 2012 Share Posted 11 May, 2012 When did we get bigger gates than Everton? You didn't answer the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 11 May, 2012 Share Posted 11 May, 2012 You didn't answer the question. Have Saints ever had bigger gates than Everton and if yes, which season? If it's no, just say no. Once we've dealt with that we'll move on to how many people in Nottingham are planning to become West Brom fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 11 May, 2012 Share Posted 11 May, 2012 (edited) Have Saints ever had bigger gates than Everton and if yes, which season? No, but given Saints have never had a stadium anywhere near as big as Everton it is a pointless comparison. Hence me asking you the question which if you had bothered to answer would make your question null and void. In the last decade when Saints came 8th and Everton are 7th this season they had very similar averages. Everton are aided by having a 40k stadium, so the average is boosted in the big games in a way it can't be for Saints at a 32k stadium. It really shouldn't be that hard a concept to grasp. Still no response to #914, more cherry picking of things you want to respond to? Edited 11 May, 2012 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 11 May, 2012 Share Posted 11 May, 2012 No, but given Saints have never had a stadium anywhere near as big as Everton it is a pointless comparison. Hence me asking you the question which if you had bothered to answer would make your question null and void. In the last decade when Saints came 8th and Everton are 7th this season they had very similar averages. Everton are aided by having a 40k stadium, so the average is boosted in the big games in a way it can't be for Saints at a 32k stadium. It really shouldn't be that hard a concept to grasp. Still no response to #914, more cherry picking of things you want to respond to? Waiting lists isn't a hard concept to grasp but it's beyond you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 11 May, 2012 Share Posted 11 May, 2012 Waiting lists isn't a hard concept to grasp but it's beyond you. Saints pretty much maxed out St Mary's for 4 years. They made more money by having fewer season ticket holders and a full stadium. It is not compulsory to have waiting lists, some in the world of football ownership may consider them not to be as important as you do and just let the stadium sell out with tickets at full price. Again, more questions left unanswered... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 11 May, 2012 Share Posted 11 May, 2012 (edited) Saints pretty much maxed out St Mary's for 4 years. They made more money by having fewer season ticket holders and a full stadium. It is not compulsory to have waiting lists, some in the world of football ownership may consider them not to be as important as you do and just let the stadium sell out with tickets at full price. Again, more questions left unanswered... What? Which clubs have waiting lists and DON'T sell out a full price? And what does compulsory mean in this context? Spurs are compelled to have a waiting list purely because they have loads of people clamouring for tickets. We don't have one because we don't have those fans clamouring for a ticket. No "compulsory" anything. And Saints did not make a strategic decision to sell limited number of season tickets. We would have sold more if we could. We didn't. Edited 11 May, 2012 by CB Fry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 11 May, 2012 Share Posted 11 May, 2012 (edited) No, but given Saints have never had a stadium anywhere near as big as Everton it is a pointless comparison. Hence me asking you the question which if you had bothered to answer would make your question null and void. In the last decade when Saints came 8th and Everton are 7th this season they had very similar averages. Everton are aided by having a 40k stadium, so the average is boosted in the big games in a way it can't be for Saints at a 32k stadium. It really shouldn't be that hard a concept to grasp. Still no response to #914, more cherry picking of things you want to respond to? What I am struggling to understand is why there are tens of thousands of people desperate to come to St Mary's to see premier league football now but Everton don't benefit from tens of thousands of people travelling from Blackpool, Carlise, Wrexham and Preston to see the same thing. why are we going to do so well when they don't?You said yourself in a previous post a club in 7th should expect to get higher crowds than one further down the table, yet Sunderland average bigger crowds despite being lower down the table. Edited 11 May, 2012 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latheal Posted 11 May, 2012 Share Posted 11 May, 2012 Loving this debate. Personally, I don't think Champions League is out of reach in 5 years. However, I'd be happy with just establishing ourselves in the Premier League again with the odd cup run and challenging for Europa. One of the things this debate has thrown up is the size if the club. Last time I checked, you didn't have to be a certain "size" or spend a certain amount of money to get into Europe. Pretty sure Everton qualified for Champions League in recent history and Fulham, Stoke, Boro, Bolton and Birmingham have all been in the Europa. The question of size is always subjective. People look at history, fan base, revenue, attendances, success but all of this is subjective. Some of the comparisons on here (Sheffield Wed) springs to mind is quite frankly, crazy. I don't actually get the arguments - is the fact that Sheffield W having a similar attendance than us in League One making them a bigger club or the same size? I've always looked at potential size of the club when thinking how big a club can be. Again, subjectively, it depends on stadium, facilities, fan base, potential fan base, league posistion and recent success. History plays a part but not as much as I think people give it credit for. 20 years ago would people have been able to argue that Chelsea is a bigger club than Spurs or that they needed a 60,000 stadium? For what it's worth, I'm with MLG on this. I think we have huge potential, but then I feel we can fill a 40,000 stadium in the Prem at least 3/4 of the time. Hell, I'm pretty sure we would have filled that 6 or 7 times this season. But then I also think football is changing again...I believe the big contracts will be lowering in years to come as FFP comes into action and clubs will regain control from players. Champions League is a massive ask but Europa is well within the realms of possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djharvey Posted 11 May, 2012 Share Posted 11 May, 2012 Loving this debate. Personally, I don't think Champions League is out of reach in 5 years. However, I'd be happy with just establishing ourselves in the Premier League again with the odd cup run and challenging for Europa. One of the things this debate has thrown up is the size if the club. Last time I checked, you didn't have to be a certain "size" or spend a certain amount of money to get into Europe. Pretty sure Everton qualified for Champions League in recent history and Fulham, Stoke, Boro, Bolton and Birmingham have all been in the Europa. The question of size is always subjective. People look at history, fan base, revenue, attendances, success but all of this is subjective. Some of the comparisons on here (Sheffield Wed) springs to mind is quite frankly, crazy. I don't actually get the arguments - is the fact that Sheffield W having a similar attendance than us in League One making them a bigger club or the same size? I've always looked at potential size of the club when thinking how big a club can be. Again, subjectively, it depends on stadium, facilities, fan base, potential fan base, league posistion and recent success. History plays a part but not as much as I think people give it credit for. 20 years ago would people have been able to argue that Chelsea is a bigger club than Spurs or that they needed a 60,000 stadium? For what it's worth, I'm with MLG on this. I think we have huge potential, but then I feel we can fill a 40,000 stadium in the Prem at least 3/4 of the time. Hell, I'm pretty sure we would have filled that 6 or 7 times this season. But then I also think football is changing again...I believe the big contracts will be lowering in years to come as FFP comes into action and clubs will regain control from players. Champions League is a massive ask but Europa is well within the realms of possibility. Good post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericb Posted 11 May, 2012 Share Posted 11 May, 2012 Have you considered it being down to Saints being limited by The Dell? Hold on i thought that didn't count and it was because we didn't have ambition then? I mean it's not like we spent the best part of two decades trying to find a new ground, and it's not like we actually thought we had the Pirelli site set up in the 80's (at our peak), and it's not like we finished in our best league position ever signing the European player of the year on the way. Jesus MLG you're just so stuck in that small time Dell attitude aren't you? So do you think Forest are a similarly sized club to Southampton? I do. If we're both in the premier league they're a much bigger club than us, as has been proven in the past. is the fact that Sheffield W having a similar attendance than us in League One making them a bigger club or the same size? Nope it's based on their historical support in the top flight and the fact that they were a huge club in many people's youth. I'd be interested to know if you're old enough to remember the Sheffield Wednesday that used to be one of the top English clubs and were expected to compete for most things (including league title) and would sell out Hillsborough (terraced, huge and a standard as an FA cup semi final place most years) as well as away ends all over the country. The same could be said of Leeds, Forest and to a lesser extent Derby (but only lesser cause they were dipping as i was growing up). All these claims of sides being bigger aren't really crazy they're just based on a longer memory/knowledge of football than a few on here and a realisation that nine times out of ten the really big clubs do dominate, it's just that there are more of them than people realise. As an example Sheffield Wednesday drop off and Newcastle pick up, both (in my opinion) are similar sized clubs, just look at the geordies support in the 80s and both have tremendous potential. We're just lucky at the moment that so many of these really big clubs aren't in the top flight, since it actually gives us the chance to achieve something above what we otherwise may have the chance of. Sorry for the epic post btw but it's my last one for the day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint1977 Posted 11 May, 2012 Share Posted 11 May, 2012 Hold on i thought that didn't count and it was because we didn't have ambition then? I mean it's not like we spent the best part of two decades trying to find a new ground, and it's not like we actually thought we had the Pirelli site set up in the 80's (at our peak), and it's not like we finished in our best league position ever signing the European player of the year on the way. Jesus MLG you're just so stuck in that small time Dell attitude aren't you? If we're both in the premier league they're a much bigger club than us, as has been proven in the past. Nope it's based on their historical support in the top flight and the fact that they were a huge club in many people's youth. I'd be interested to know if you're old enough to remember the Sheffield Wednesday that used to be one of the top English clubs and were expected to compete for most things (including league title) and would sell out Hillsborough (terraced, huge and a standard as an FA cup semi final place most years) as well as away ends all over the country. The same could be said of Leeds, Forest and to a lesser extent Derby (but only lesser cause they were dipping as i was growing up). All these claims of sides being bigger aren't really crazy they're just based on a longer memory/knowledge of football than a few on here and a realisation that nine times out of ten the really big clubs do dominate, it's just that there are more of them than people realise. As an example Sheffield Wednesday drop off and Newcastle pick up, both (in my opinion) are similar sized clubs, just look at the geordies support in the 80s and both have tremendous potential. We're just lucky at the moment that so many of these really big clubs aren't in the top flight, since it actually gives us the chance to achieve something above what we otherwise may have the chance of. Sorry for the epic post btw but it's my last one for the day! I agree with some of this analysis but not all of it. Leeds have still got a bigger overall fanbase I would say and if Bates ever goes I can see their gates regularly exceeding 30k again. Derby have got a better history than us from 40 years ago but I'd say they are parallel to us. Forest - brilliant under Clough but if you take that away they are a club yo-yoing between the top 2 divisions. Like Derby, very similar to us and no bigger but no smaller. I'd put Saints, Derby and Forest in an identical bracket but Leeds are still bigger. Wednesday are similar to us, bigger ground, had a good 1990s but fickle fanbase, much more so than us, Forest or Derby. Harder to assess but would say similar size if they push for promotion next year. There's no evidence, certainly not a single League 1 promotion game at home, that suggests they are on a par with the likes of Newcastle. As for stadium expansion, I'm not sure about that until we have 2 seasons of PL football, sell outs and a lot of pent up demand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 11 May, 2012 Share Posted 11 May, 2012 Hold on i thought that didn't count and it was because we didn't have ambition then? I mean it's not like we spent the best part of two decades trying to find a new ground, and it's not like we actually thought we had the Pirelli site set up in the 80's (at our peak), and it's not like we finished in our best league position ever signing the European player of the year on the way. Jesus MLG you're just so stuck in that small time Dell attitude aren't you? If we're both in the premier league they're a much bigger club than us, as has been proven in the past. Nope it's based on their historical support in the top flight and the fact that they were a huge club in many people's youth. I'd be interested to know if you're old enough to remember the Sheffield Wednesday that used to be one of the top English clubs and were expected to compete for most things (including league title) and would sell out Hillsborough (terraced, huge and a standard as an FA cup semi final place most years) as well as away ends all over the country. The same could be said of Leeds, Forest and to a lesser extent Derby (but only lesser cause they were dipping as i was growing up). All these claims of sides being bigger aren't really crazy they're just based on a longer memory/knowledge of football than a few on here and a realisation that nine times out of ten the really big clubs do dominate, it's just that there are more of them than people realise. As an example Sheffield Wednesday drop off and Newcastle pick up, both (in my opinion) are similar sized clubs, just look at the geordies support in the 80s and both have tremendous potential. We're just lucky at the moment that so many of these really big clubs aren't in the top flight, since it actually gives us the chance to achieve something above what we otherwise may have the chance of. Sorry for the epic post btw but it's my last one for the day! Quoting history is meaningless, we have NEVER had the opportunity to fulfil our potential. We have ALWAYS been limited by lack of resources or/and ambition. I think the potential is obvious. I'm amazed at how many fans look backward and think we can't achieve this or that because it's not what has happened before. Thank god we have someone like Cortese in charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latheal Posted 11 May, 2012 Share Posted 11 May, 2012 If we're both in the premier league they're a much bigger club than us, as has been proven in the past. Nope it's based on their historical support in the top flight and the fact that they were a huge club in many people's youth. I'd be interested to know if you're old enough to remember the Sheffield Wednesday that used to be one of the top English clubs and were expected to compete for most things (including league title) and would sell out Hillsborough (terraced, huge and a standard as an FA cup semi final place most years) as well as away ends all over the country. The same could be said of Leeds, Forest and to a lesser extent Derby (but only lesser cause they were dipping as i was growing up). All these claims of sides being bigger aren't really crazy they're just based on a longer memory/knowledge of football than a few on here and a realisation that nine times out of ten the really big clubs do dominate, it's just that there are more of them than people Sorry for the epic post btw but it's my last one for the day! I'm 34 and yes I remember how big Sheffield Weds, Notts For were. But that was my point about history. I think, and it's only my opinion, that too much is placed on historic events. Are Forest a big club because they won the European Cup? Are Wednesday a big club because they were challenging for cups years ago? Personally, on the latter, I think Wednesday are massive. I would argue all day long about Forest though. My point is we have a potential to get to a Newcastle sized club in fan base and revenue. Wednesday averaged the same attendance as us in League 1 near enough. Whose to say with the same sized stadium we couldn't fill it? Yes they have history, but in the modern age what does that count for? We'll exceed both Forest's and Wednesday's revenue and attendance next year. There is an opportunity to grow. I'm all for it. Whether we do or not is another question. Yes the big clubs dominate. But the big club "club" is not the closed shop everybody seems to think it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 11 May, 2012 Share Posted 11 May, 2012 Hold on i thought that didn't count and it was because we didn't have ambition then? I mean it's not like we spent the best part of two decades trying to find a new ground, and it's not like we actually thought we had the Pirelli site set up in the 80's (at our peak), and it's not like we finished in our best league position ever signing the European player of the year on the way. Jesus MLG you're just so stuck in that small time Dell attitude aren't you? If we're both in the premier league they're a much bigger club than us, as has been proven in the past. Nope it's based on their historical support in the top flight and the fact that they were a huge club in many people's youth. I'd be interested to know if you're old enough to remember the Sheffield Wednesday that used to be one of the top English clubs and were expected to compete for most things (including league title) and would sell out Hillsborough (terraced, huge and a standard as an FA cup semi final place most years) as well as away ends all over the country. The same could be said of Leeds, Forest and to a lesser extent Derby (but only lesser cause they were dipping as i was growing up). All these claims of sides being bigger aren't really crazy they're just based on a longer memory/knowledge of football than a few on here and a realisation that nine times out of ten the really big clubs do dominate, it's just that there are more of them than people realise. As an example Sheffield Wednesday drop off and Newcastle pick up, both (in my opinion) are similar sized clubs, just look at the geordies support in the 80s and both have tremendous potential. We're just lucky at the moment that so many of these really big clubs aren't in the top flight, since it actually gives us the chance to achieve something above what we otherwise may have the chance of. Sorry for the epic post btw but it's my last one for the day! Nice to have someone with a bit of historical perspective here. It seems that from the usual disparaging tone of CB Fry that he isn't old enough to remember the glory days of teams like Sheffield Wednesday, so perhaps I ought to call him sonny when he gets a bit uppity. I thought it would be interesting to see what the table looked like when I was a nipper of 6 and it was quite a surprise:- Chelsea Wolves Portsmouth Sunderland Man Utd Aston Villa Man City Newcastle Arsenal Burnley Everton Huddersfield Sheffield Utd Preston NE Charlton Tottenham WBA Bolton Blackpool Cardiff Leicester Sheffield Wednesday So no Liverpool until Shankly, no Leeds, no Nottingham Forest or County, no Derby. As you say, we are lucky that so many of those big clubs you mention aren't in the equation currently, but then again there are some of those clubs from that era that have fallen on hard times too and been replaced by others in the intervening times. Of course, neither were we on the radar then, but 27 years in the Premiership at least got us recognition and hopefully with another run of many years, the blip when we went down to the third division will fade in peoples' memories. We're a club on the way up and it's early days for our second bite at the Premiership. But the lessons of historical precedent are there to illustrate how the fortunes of clubs wax and wane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Posted 12 May, 2012 Share Posted 12 May, 2012 Interesting debate, but in reality no one really knows – remember Roy Keane and his prawn sandwich rant? I know many business types that will take advantage of corporate hospitality etc. Remember, it’s not necessarily Saints fans that will drive this – when we were last in the Prem I got my company to pay £200 a pop for 10 tickets to the game against the Arse as the MD of our main customer was a mad Arsenal fan and on other occasions could not get enough tickets. When we were at the Dell and I could finally afford it, I was on the ST waiting list for 5 years (yep 5 years) – during which time the club never once contacted me, but I still managed to get to most games prior to moving abroad. The sad thing is, I am still on the waiting list (on my mother’s address) and I am yet to receive a request to apply?? How many others in my position? I now live in Ireland and still get to about half a dozen games a year, and am willing to blow the finances for a season ticket, but simply cannot afford the airfare and other expenses for all home games. However I am still seriously thinking of getting a season ticket (if I can) just for the 6 top games to ensure a ticket when we spank MU, MC, Arse, “Not the England manager” team, Pool, and the final home game (which sees us finishing in the top 10 – just !!). Only thing is it will cost me 3 to 4 times the cost of a season ticket to only see around six games, and as Ireland is broke the misses will kill me! I am sure NC will get better marketing and ticketing arrangements in place, and if we are entertaining and reasonably successful, I may yet be on the waiting list for a few more years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippineSaint Posted 12 May, 2012 Share Posted 12 May, 2012 Nice to have someone with a bit of historical perspective here. It seems that from the usual disparaging tone of CB Fry that he isn't old enough to remember the glory days of teams like Sheffield Wednesday, so perhaps I ought to call him sonny when he gets a bit uppity. I thought it would be interesting to see what the table looked like when I was a nipper of 6 and it was quite a surprise:- Chelsea Wolves Portsmouth Sunderland Man Utd Aston Villa Man City Newcastle Arsenal Burnley Everton Huddersfield Sheffield Utd Preston NE Charlton Tottenham WBA Bolton Blackpool Cardiff Leicester Sheffield Wednesday So no Liverpool until Shankly, no Leeds, no Nottingham Forest or County, no Derby. As you say, we are lucky that so many of those big clubs you mention aren't in the equation currently, but then again there are some of those clubs from that era that have fallen on hard times too and been replaced by others in the intervening times. Of course, neither were we on the radar then, but 27 years in the Premiership at least got us recognition and hopefully with another run of many years, the blip when we went down to the third division will fade in peoples' memories. We're a club on the way up and it's early days for our second bite at the Premiership. But the lessons of historical precedent are there to illustrate how the fortunes of clubs wax and wane. And when I was 6 we finished 7th and I would be happy with that next season as well as Blackpool or West Ham getting relegated Which ever one it is and before the Pedants turn up I know this was before three up three down came in. 1 Arsenal 2 Leeds United 3 Tottenham Hotspur 4 Wolverhampton Wanderers 5 Liverpool 6 Chelsea 7 Southampton 8 Manchester United 9 Derby County 10 Coventry City 11 Manchester City 12 Newcastle United 13 Stoke City 14 Everton 15 Huddersfield Town 16 Nottingham Forest 17 West Bromwich Albion 18 Crystal Palace 19 Ipswich Town 20 West Ham United 21 Burnley 22 Blackpool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 12 May, 2012 Share Posted 12 May, 2012 (edited) Nice to have someone with a bit of historical perspective here. It seems that from the usual disparaging tone of CB Fry that he isn't old enough to remember the glory days of teams like Sheffield Wednesday, so perhaps I ought to call him sonny when he gets a bit uppity. We're a club on the way up and it's early days for our second bite at the Premiership. But the lessons of historical precedent are there to illustrate how the fortunes of clubs wax and wane. You do realise those couple of long posts are saying what I've been saying - other clubs like SWFC and Forest and Derby are at least as big and have just as much potential as we do. And neither of them are blathering on about our unique and gigantic catchment that have had 126 years to register interest in puchasing a ticket for a match but are currently yet to do so despite us signing the European footballer of the year, finishing second once and top ten several times and getting to several cup finals. And some lovely head-up-arse pompous guff about waxing and waning. No shi t Shurlock. Pretty sure that's been my point when I dare to suggest that clubs from cities with two clubs in it (gosh - two) could have similar potential to us. Any chance whatsoever that the fortunes of SolentMegaCitySaintsFC could possibly wane, ever, at all? Presumably there might be a season when we only finish fifth but suppose we can fall back on the fact that seventy-five pence of every pound spent on football in every town south of the M4 corridor will be hoovered up by the SolentCityMegaSaints by then. Anyhoo. Just want to point that out as you seem to be deluding yourself that those very sensible posts are backing you up. Read them boyo. They aint. Its me on the side of basic common sense. Edited 12 May, 2012 by CB Fry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 12 May, 2012 Share Posted 12 May, 2012 Interesting debate, but in reality no one really knows – remember Roy Keane and his prawn sandwich rant? I know many business types that will take advantage of corporate hospitality etc. Remember, it’s not necessarily Saints fans that will drive this – when we were last in the Prem I got my company to pay £200 a pop for 10 tickets to the game against the Arse as the MD of our main customer was a mad Arsenal fan and on other occasions could not get enough tickets. When we were at the Dell and I could finally afford it, I was on the ST waiting list for 5 years (yep 5 years) – during which time the club never once contacted me, but I still managed to get to most games prior to moving abroad. The sad thing is, I am still on the waiting list (on my mother’s address) and I am yet to receive a request to apply?? How many others in my position? I now live in Ireland and still get to about half a dozen games a year, and am willing to blow the finances for a season ticket, but simply cannot afford the airfare and other expenses for all home games. However I am still seriously thinking of getting a season ticket (if I can) just for the 6 top games to ensure a ticket when we spank MU, MC, Arse, “Not the England manager” team, Pool, and the final home game (which sees us finishing in the top 10 – just !!). Only thing is it will cost me 3 to 4 times the cost of a season ticket to only see around six games, and as Ireland is broke the misses will kill me! I am sure NC will get better marketing and ticketing arrangements in place, and if we are entertaining and reasonably successful, I may yet be on the waiting list for a few more years Squeezing money out of corporates is a very sensible way to max out revenues on very little outlay. Far better to do that than build 10,000 new seats at significant cost on the off chance that thousands of people in Weymouth are going to become die-hards. By the way, there isn't a waiting list. If you want a ST you will be able to buy one. You deciding not to buy one is not being on a waiting list. Just before MLG gets excited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 12 May, 2012 Share Posted 12 May, 2012 This debate was over pages ago. CBF clearly won through his massive intellect. I look forward next year to digging out a flat cap and standing ankle deep in Urine next to people wearing raincoats and scarfs. Nothing ever changes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Third Coming Posted 12 May, 2012 Share Posted 12 May, 2012 Nice to have someone with a bit of historical perspective here. It seems that from the usual disparaging tone of CB Fry that he isn't old enough to remember the glory days of teams like Sheffield Wednesday, so perhaps I ought to call him sonny when he gets a bit uppity. I thought it would be interesting to see what the table looked like when I was a nipper of 6 and it was quite a surprise:- Chelsea Wolves Portsmouth Sunderland Man Utd Aston Villa Man City Newcastle Arsenal Burnley Everton Huddersfield Sheffield Utd Preston NE Charlton Tottenham WBA Bolton Blackpool Cardiff Leicester Sheffield Wednesday So no Liverpool until Shankly, no Leeds, no Nottingham Forest or County, no Derby. As you say, we are lucky that so many of those big clubs you mention aren't in the equation currently, but then again there are some of those clubs from that era that have fallen on hard times too and been replaced by others in the intervening times. Of course, neither were we on the radar then, but 27 years in the Premiership at least got us recognition and hopefully with another run of many years, the blip when we went down to the third division will fade in peoples' memories. We're a club on the way up and it's early days for our second bite at the Premiership. But the lessons of historical precedent are there to illustrate how the fortunes of clubs wax and wane. Hallebloodylujah! The world changes and football moves on... For me this debate is utterly pointless. In the next five years these are ALL feasible results: Win the Premiership Win the Championship Win League One Win League Two (yes I've done the maths) It used to take football clubs a long time to do what a Derby did under Clough (or Forest) or United under Busby, or Liverpool under Shankly, then along came people like Jack Walker and suddenly money spoke a little... and now money it speaks VOLUMES. We might go bust, we might qualify for the Champion's League in the next five years. To rule out either is meaningless. To claim either is pretty ridiculous. But if you believe Nicola Cortese is a constant (again, at best a bet) which is he most likely 'targeting'?? I can't see us selling out a 60k stadium any time soon. But then I couldn't see Rangers being liquidated... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 12 May, 2012 Share Posted 12 May, 2012 You do realise those couple of long posts are saying what I've been saying - other clubs like SWFC and Forest and Derby are at least as big and have just as much potential as we do. And neither of them are blathering on about our unique and gigantic catchment that have had 126 years to register interest in puchasing a ticket for a match but are currently yet to do so despite us signing the European footballer of the year, finishing second once and top ten several times and getting to several cup finals. Just want to point that out as you seem to be deluding yourself that those very sensible posts are backing you up. Read them boyo. They aint. As usual, you miss the point entirely. We are not discussing what other clubs in the Midlands could be doing if they found themselves in the Premiership. We are talking about what we could do now we find ourselves back in that position and without equally successful rival neighbouring clubs anywhere near us. You somehow fail to recognise that there are actually two strands to what was posted; one where the discussion centrered on our catchment area (and your argument that those 3 clubs you mentioned had equal potential) and the other strand is where historical perspective showed that the fortunes of clubs waxed and waned. Therefore it is certainly not the case that my mention of the historical position of clubs in the league proves that I am in agreement with your point about rival clubs' catchment areas. Is that clear? And really it's laughable that you mention that people didn't purchase a ticket after we finished second in the first division, signed the European player of the year and had success in Cup competitions. How do you suggest that we shoe-horned any extra fans into the small stadium that we had at the time? Or do you really believe that if we had a larger capacity stadium at the time, we would have struggled to get more people into it on the back of that success? But just to mention in the obtuse style that you're so fond of using to prove your points, in my league table neither Derby nor Nottingham Forest featured at all and Sheffield Wednesday were bottom. So what your conclusion is about that, who knows, what with your grasshopper thought processes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 12 May, 2012 Share Posted 12 May, 2012 Hallebloodylujah! The world changes and football moves on... For me this debate is utterly pointless. In the next five years these are ALL feasible results: Win the Premiership Win the Championship Win League One Win League Two (yes I've done the maths) It used to take football clubs a long time to do what a Derby did under Clough (or Forest) or United under Busby, or Liverpool under Shankly, then along came people like Jack Walker and suddenly money spoke a little... and now money it speaks VOLUMES. We might go bust, we might qualify for the Champion's League in the next five years. To rule out either is meaningless. To claim either is pretty ridiculous. But if you believe Nicola Cortese is a constant (again, at best a bet) which is he most likely 'targeting'?? I can't see us selling out a 60k stadium any time soon. But then I couldn't see Rangers being liquidated... Didn't Forest go from Div 2 to winning the League in three years? So not that long. Anyway. I agree with you. Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 12 May, 2012 Share Posted 12 May, 2012 As usual, you miss the point entirely. We are not discussing what other clubs in the Midlands could be doing if they found themselves in the Premiership. We are talking about what we could do now we find ourselves back in that position and without equally successful rival neighbouring clubs anywhere near us. And my point, that you in your deluded way refuse to even consider, is this neighbouring clubs thing is a total utter irrelevence. You tried to rubbish Forest and Derby earlier in the thread but they manage to be at least as big as Saints despite this apparent crippling barrier of having clubs close by. Your oppo MLG truly thinks that people on the outskirts of Nottinghamshire are sitting around weighing up whether to support Forest, West Bron or Port Vale. It is irrelevent. It is utterly irrelevent. That is the point I am making. People in Weymouth are not Saints fans in waiting just because there aren't many clubs about. Its a fiction in your head my son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 12 May, 2012 Share Posted 12 May, 2012 And my point, that you in your deluded way refuse to even consider, is this neighbouring clubs thing is a total utter irrelevence. You tried to rubbish Forest and Derby earlier in the thread but they manage to be at least as big as Saints despite this apparent crippling barrier of having clubs close by. Your oppo MLG truly thinks that people on the outskirts of Nottinghamshire are sitting around weighing up whether to support Forest, West Bron or Port Vale. It is irrelevent. It is utterly irrelevent. That is the point I am making. People in Weymouth are not Saints fans in waiting just because there aren't many clubs about. Its a fiction in your head my son. I thought that we had established that as I am probably quite a bit older than you, it ought to be me calling you sonny, sonny. And you in your deluded way, fail to acknowledge that this thing about "big" clubs changes with the passing of time. I realise that your definition of what constitutes a "big" club is based on what they have achieved sometime in the distant past, so you might as well call the Skates a big club based on their league domination when I was born and their two FA Cup final successes. It's really quite a simple concept, that with the changes of fortune of clubs, one club declines, many of the plastic fans in the area gradually transfer to a nearby successful rival. Now you might argue until you're blue in the face that this does not happen, but then it is you that is deluded. But I bow to your superior knowledge of what is in the minds of football fans in Weymouth and accept that because it is your opinion that none of them will be remotely interested in seeing the stars of the Premiership in action just 50 miles along the coast, it must be so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Charming Man Posted 12 May, 2012 Share Posted 12 May, 2012 Have all these people moved in since our relegation then? Thats the bit I don't understand. Last time we were in the Premiership we were an established Premiershp side. We'd made the cup final and even had a brief venture into Europe. Yet we never came close to selling the full amount of ST's that we could've. You could get a ticket for any games you wanted as long as you put the effort in to get one. What's so different this time around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 12 May, 2012 Share Posted 12 May, 2012 Thats the bit I don't understand. Last time we were in the Premiership we were an established Premiershp side. We'd made the cup final and even had a brief venture into Europe. Yet we never came close to selling the full amount of ST's that we could've. You could get a ticket for any games you wanted as long as you put the effort in to get one. What's so different this time around? Something about the nature of big clubs change over time or something. And even though we never ever attracted a huge following from Weymouth in those days we definitely will this time. Or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Charming Man Posted 12 May, 2012 Share Posted 12 May, 2012 Something about the nature of big clubs change over time or something. And even though we never ever attracted a huge following from Weymouth in those days we definitely will this time. Or something. I thought it took decades for these changes and power shifts to evolve. Wasn't aware they happened over night. So now Liverpool are rubbish, everyone will be looking for a new team to support. Who better than newly promoted us. I see how this works. Build it now, forget all the evidence that suggests otherwise. Just build it, as you never know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 12 May, 2012 Share Posted 12 May, 2012 Don't I recall that CB Fry is based somewhere in the Midlands, hence his encyclopedic knowledge of clubs like Derby, Notts and Sheffield? So how come he is presumably prepared to travel all that way to see a game here, but somehow potential fans from Weymouth will just not bother? I wonder if he could enlighten us all as to what qualifies him to know what is in the minds of others when it comes to what they might want to watch in the way of entertainment and how far they might be prepared to travel to see it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 12 May, 2012 Share Posted 12 May, 2012 I thought it took decades for these changes and power shifts to evolve. Wasn't aware they happened over night. So now Liverpool are rubbish, everyone will be looking for a new team to support. Who better than newly promoted us. I see how this works. Build it now, forget all the evidence that suggests otherwise. Just build it, as you never know... Cardiff and must be getting sick of losing in the play offs as well, plus they sit below the infamous Liverpool, Birmingham, London catchment area. I am sure we can pick up a few thousand of their fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 12 May, 2012 Share Posted 12 May, 2012 Don't I recall that CB Fry is based somewhere in the Midlands, hence his encyclopedic knowledge of clubs like Derby, Notts and Sheffield? So how come he is presumably prepared to travel all that way to see a game here, but somehow potential fans from Weymouth will just not bother? I wonder if he could enlighten us all as to what qualifies him to know what is in the minds of others when it comes to what they might want to watch in the way of entertainment and how far they might be prepared to travel to see it? What qualifies you to tell us what all these people in Trowbridge, Shepton Mallet, Weymouth, Exeter, Truro and Malborough are planning to do with their entertainment and how far they're prepared to travel to do it? At least CB Fry has the FACT that for the last 126 years travelling to Southampton in their 10's of thousands to watch football has never happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 12 May, 2012 Share Posted 12 May, 2012 Don't I recall that CB Fry is based somewhere in the Midlands, hence his encyclopedic knowledge of clubs like Derby, Notts and Sheffield? So how come he is presumably prepared to travel all that way to see a game here, but somehow potential fans from Weymouth will just not bother? I wonder if he could enlighten us all as to what qualifies him to know what is in the minds of others when it comes to what they might want to watch in the way of entertainment and how far they might be prepared to travel to see it? Because I was born in, grew up in, and all my family are from and still live in, Southampton. Just need 10,000 more like me - but who currently have no interest in Saints at all - and you're on to something. And I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of anything. Just some perspective and a grasp of reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 12 May, 2012 Share Posted 12 May, 2012 Thats the bit I don't understand. Last time we were in the Premiership we were an established Premiershp side. We'd made the cup final and even had a brief venture into Europe. Yet we never came close to selling the full amount of ST's that we could've. You could get a ticket for any games you wanted as long as you put the effort in to get one. What's so different this time around? Last time we were in the Premiership we were generally sh!t apart from a couple of seasons under Strachan. Even then we reached a cup final via an easy run of games and got into Europe by the back door, and got dumped out in the first round - Millwall managed that. Our record signing was Rory Delap and we had Brett Ormerod up front. We had a flirtation with "success" yet our home game against Chelsea that season sold out in 6hrs. Sure, if you really wanted a ticket you could get one but it's the casual fans who just want to pop along and watch a big game that you need to attract if you are going to grow. People who are not going to queue up 4 weeks in advance to get a seat. We shifted 50,000 for a Wembley game vs Carlisle with the tickets not even going on general sale. There is obviously potential for growth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 12 May, 2012 Share Posted 12 May, 2012 Because I was born in, grew up in, and all my family are from and still live in, Southampton. Just need 10,000 more like me - but who currently have no interest in Saints at all - and you're on to something. And I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of anything. Just some perspective and a grasp of reality. 10,000 more like you? No thanks; what a nightmare that would be! We would have the most arrogant fanbase of any club in English football. But you infer that it is only those with family ties, or those who were born here that will make up the potentail additional fans. We have one of the largest student populations in the country here in this City, with two Universities. I am led to understand that a lot of our current fan base comprises those who went to university here and started following us when they were students here. Now, accepting the premise that many of the current students are more likely to attend matches initially to watch us play the glory teams, that is an additional source of extra fans too. Or is that scenario outside the bounds of reality? And although I have witnessed the way that football has changed over a much longer period than you, I'll just have to accept that you must have a better perspective on things than me, because by inference if you say that your argument has perspective, then mine cannot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 12 May, 2012 Share Posted 12 May, 2012 (edited) Last time we were in the Premiership we were generally sh!t apart from a couple of seasons under Strachan. Even then we reached a cup final via an easy run of games and got into Europe by the back door, and got dumped out in the first round - Millwall managed that. Our record signing was Rory Delap and we had Brett Ormerod up front. We had a flirtation with "success" yet our home game against Chelsea that season sold out in 6hrs. Sure, if you really wanted a ticket you could get one but it's the casual fans who just want to pop along and watch a big game that you need to attract if you are going to grow. People who are not going to queue up 4 weeks in advance to get a seat. We shifted 50,000 for a Wembley game vs Carlisle with the tickets not even going on general sale. There is obviously potential for growth. Hardly sh*t. In fact IIRC a lot of talk on the old Saints forever site shortly after the move to SMS was that we were on the verge of a golden period. There were lots of excitable "who's got a ticket for *insert game*" post and our league positions whilst at St Mary's were 10th, 11th, 8th, 12th, 20th. So baring the last season solid midtable finishes, a cup final and Europe. Yet despite this no signs of 20,000 fans travelling from Cornwall, Wales, Devon and Somerset. Why is it going to be so different now? And to complete the Millwall references they took 50k to Wembley for a game once, 49,500 offcially for their play off game in 2009. why aren't they expanding and talking about the champions league? Edited 12 May, 2012 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippineSaint Posted 12 May, 2012 Share Posted 12 May, 2012 Cardiff and must be getting sick of losing in the play offs as well, plus they sit below the infamous Liverpool, Birmingham, London catchment area. I am sure we can pick up a few thousand of their fans. I dont think so the Cardiff Welsh hate the English 3 years in Newport taught me that we would be lucky to still get the support of the Cardiff Saints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 12 May, 2012 Share Posted 12 May, 2012 I dont think so the Cardiff Welsh hate the English 3 years in Newport taught me that we would be lucky to still get the support of the Cardiff Saints. But this can't be true. They sit in the zone which means they are potential Saints fans, surely their desire to watch premier league football would overcome any anti English feeling. I mean they won't go to Swansea, although I am sure Swansea fans are having this very debate on their forums that they can realistically expect to pick up loads of Caridff fans what with them being in the premier league, near Cardiff and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 12 May, 2012 Share Posted 12 May, 2012 10,000 more like you? No thanks; what a nightmare that would be! We would have the most arrogant fanbase of any club in English football. But you infer that it is only those with family ties, or those who were born here that will make up the potentail additional fans. We have one of the largest student populations in the country here in this City, with two Universities. I am led to understand that a lot of our current fan base comprises those who went to university here and started following us when they were students here. Now, accepting the premise that many of the current students are more likely to attend matches initially to watch us play the glory teams, that is an additional source of extra fans too. Or is that scenario outside the bounds of reality? And although I have witnessed the way that football has changed over a much longer period than you, I'll just have to accept that you must have a better perspective on things than me, because by inference if you say that your argument has perspective, then mine cannot. Guess what. Nottingham has a gigantic student population. Guess what. Southampton has had loads of students for many, many years. Didn't get us many more fans than Forest or Derby in the NPC though did it. I won't bother inferring that because you tell me I can't possibly know what people in Weymouth are thinking that you must know PRECISELY what people in Weymouth are thinking. And by jiminy. It's....."lets wait until Saints are in the Champions League. And the ground holds 40,000. And the club have brought in a Easyjet ticketing policy where brand new fans from Dorset only pay a tenner. Then, and only then will we start piling into St Mary's" Glad you're so sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 12 May, 2012 Share Posted 12 May, 2012 For one supposedly so intelligent, your thought processes are remarkedly flawed. Just because I suggest that you don't know what is in the minds of potential fans in Weymouth, doesn't infer that I do; merely that you don't. As for the students, I did suggest that they would initially be attracted to go to watch the glory teams. What has the student population in Nottingham got to do with anything? I'm sure that equally they'd go to watch Forest if they were in the Premiership too. But they aren't. We are. That fact seems to have escaped you somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 12 May, 2012 Share Posted 12 May, 2012 I want to know what is different now, to 7-8 years ago...why will be attract 1000's new fans now that we never got last time..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Third Coming Posted 12 May, 2012 Share Posted 12 May, 2012 Didn't Forest go from Div 2 to winning the League in three years? So not that long. Anyway. I agree with you. Amen. Is that true? Now THAT is the power of a great manager... Maybe Adkins could be Clough II... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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