The Kraken Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 So as many as we've got currently playing on our first team then, despite our supposedly amazing academy and being able to build a champions league qualifying team around them. And Henderson left like a shot when Liverpool knocked on his door, why are ours going to stay with us? Liverpool weren't even a Champions League club and he legged it from Sunderland as fast as he could. Chamberlain had no desire to stay with us for any longer than he had to, in order to get to an established top 4 side. But it'll be different now we're in the Premier League, players like Chamberlain, Walcott and Bale will be much more inclined to stay with us until their mid 20s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 (edited) Employ the right manager? Ah ok then, it'll be pretty easy if that's all it takes. Sunderland have got Martin O'Neill now, and he's a very good manager. So they should be hitting Champions League heights next season. Edited 9 May, 2012 by The Kraken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 So as many as we've got currently playing on our first team then. Liverpool weren't even a Champions League club and he legged it from Sunderland as fast as he could. Chamberlain had no desire to stay with us for any longer than he had to, in order to get to an established top 4 side. But it'll be different now we're in the Premier League, players like Chamberlain, Walcott and Bale will be much more inclined to stay with us until their mid 20s. I don't know if you noticed, but Saints have been in tier 2 and tier 3 of English football for the last 7 years which is 50% of the time the academy has existed. So not a like for like comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Third Coming Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Ah ok then, it'll be pretty easy if that's all it takes. Sunderland have got Martin O'Neill now, and he's a very good manager. So they should be hitting Champions League heights next season. Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Name 1 player we have sold for £16m? Bonus points given if he is as sh!t as Jordan as well. Were Saints a Premier League club when they sold Bale, Walcott or Chamberlain? Did any of them have Premier League experience? With Saints now back in the Premier League if they are forced into selling young players the price will be higher, that can then be reinvested into the squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Yes. So we've got to compete with Sunderland as well for a Champs League place, it just gets tougher and tougher....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Were Saints a Premier League club when they sold Bale, Walcott or Chamberlain? Did any of them have Premier League experience? With Saints now back in the Premier League if they are forced into selling young players the price will be higher, that can then be reinvested into the squad. We were top flight when we sold Shearer, both Wallaces, Bridge, Davies, etc, etc, etc...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 I don't know if you noticed, but Saints have been in tier 2 and tier 3 of English football for the last 7 years which is 50% of the time the academy has existed. So not a like for like comparison. Indeed you're 100% correct. As I said, now we're in the Premier League players such as Bale, Walcott and Oxlade-Chamberlain will always stay with us until they are 24, 25 instead of leaving in their teens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 We were top flight when we sold Shearer, both Wallaces, Bridge, Davies, etc, etc, etc...... - Shearer, the Wallaces and Davies were sold whilst Saints were at The Dell with little investment from the owner. - Bridge was sold whilst at St Mary's, by Rupert Lowe who didn't have much in the way of ambition and certainly not the resources available to meet those ambitions. Again, not like for like comparisons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Indeed you're 100% correct. As I said, now we're in the Premier League players such as Bale, Walcott and Oxlade-Chamberlain will always stay with us until they are 24, 25 instead of leaving in their teens. If the Liebherr estate and Cortese really show some ambition then I wouldn't rule it out as quickly as you have. Announcing a £15 million training ground development on par with some of the best in world football and category one status academy whilst in League One is quite ambitious is it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this thread. Guess I will content myself with looking forward the the CL semi final against Real madrid in our seventy five thousand seat stadium in 2017. Oh with the Saints team being led out on to the pitch by our captain, messi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 If the Liebherr estate and Cortese really show some ambition then I wouldn't rule it out as quickly as you have. Announcing a £15 million training ground development on par with some of the best in world football and category one status academy whilst in League One is quite ambitious is it not? Correct again, it will guarantee future stars will not be tempted away when the likes of Arsenal, Man Utd, Man City, and the traditional "big clubs" come calling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 - Shearer, the Wallaces and Davies were sold whilst Saints were at The Dell with little investment from the owner. - Bridge was sold whilst at St Mary's, by Rupert Lowe who didn't have much in the way of ambition and certainly not the resources available to meet those ambitions. Again, not like for like comparisons. I didn't say they were "like for like" - but they provide a precedent nevertheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 I didn't say they were "like for like" - but they provide a precedent nevertheless. Bridge put in a transfer request to engineer his move to a Champions League credible club (and for the massive amounts of extra cash, of course). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 (edited) Surely playing at a lower level with and against poorer players would mean that it would be easier for academy players to break into the first team, no? Edited 9 May, 2012 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 There is little I enjoy more on this board than winding up MLG, I am delighted to find he has not got me on ignore yet. So Matt, I see you have not answered the question put to you, just replied with a question of your own. Not very good considering your question was answered. When you say the player will be sold and the money reinvested in the team. How about if the player is sold and a ready made replacement is thrown in buy the buying club. Let's, for the sake of argument say, Bridge in exchange for some cash and Le Saux, how would this differ from selling Shaw in exchange for some cash and Ashley Cole in a few years time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 - Shearer, the Wallaces and Davies were sold whilst Saints were at The Dell with little investment from the owner. - Bridge was sold whilst at St Mary's, by Rupert Lowe who didn't have much in the way of ambition and certainly not the resources available to meet those ambitions. Again, not like for like comparisons. Steve Williams an academy graduate or whatever it was called back then,was sold the season after we finished 2nd and there was talk we might be able to push on and win something, yet he went to Arsenal. How can this be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Steve Williams an academy graduate or whatever it was called back then,was sold the season after we finished 2nd and there was talk we might be able to push on and win something, yet he went to Arsenal. How can this be? Ah, well we didn't have any ambition back in the 80s Turkish. If we'd have had any ambition back then, we would have tried to sign the European footballer of the year. Oh, hang on... Er, its not a like for like comparison. Or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Steve Williams an academy graduate or whatever it was called back then,was sold the season after we finished 2nd and there was talk we might be able to push on and win something, yet he went to Arsenal. How can this be? He left in 1984 whilst Saints were at The Dell and not owned by particularly wealthy and ambitious people. Again, not a like for like comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Ah, well we didn't have any ambition back in the 80s Turkish. If we'd have had any ambition back then, we would have tried to sign the European footballer of the year. Oh, hang on... Er, its not a like for like comparison. Or something. Ambition and ambition plus large wealth are two different things. Keegan wasn't on huge money (in comparison to today) and largely came because of Lawrie and a few other mates he had in a strong Saints side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Steve Williams an academy graduate or whatever it was called back then,was sold the season after we finished 2nd and there was talk we might be able to push on and win something, yet he went to Arsenal. How can this be? Idiot! this was before Cortese. He is going to change everything including making Southampton a more attractive place to live for blokes in their early 20's. Don't head off to the bright lights and popstar slags in London just yet. Have you been to Oceania on a Thursday? Or maybe even been bowling in Eastleigh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 He left in 1984 whilst Saints were at The Dell and not owned by particularly wealthy and ambitious people. Again, not a like for like comparison. Would this be the same not particularly wealthy or ambitious people that lead us to our highest ever finish and signed the current European footballer of the year and England international and the worlds best goalkeeper at that time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Ambition and ambition plus large wealth are two different things. Keegan wasn't on huge money (in comparison to today) and largely came because of Lawrie and a few other mates he had in a strong Saints side. So we will have ambition and large wealth (comparitive to our peers) to invest in the playing side this time round then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 All we have to do is sign players we can't afford on massive wages but make the payments over 5 years. When we get in trouble, the sugar daddy chairman will bail us out. This will be great because at the end of the season we will be in the champions league and still have the amazing players. If anyone speaks out of turn, we fine them. We send our assistant manager to the press conferences and we declare an interest in all players under 21 years old with a PA or -09 or higher. At least that's what I do on football manager and everything works out fine there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 So we will have ambition and large wealth (comparitive to our peers) to invest in the playing side this time round then? Who knows? I don't and you don't. However things like unveiling £15 million training ground improvements and category one academy plans whilst a League One club does suggest Cortese has both high ambition and high resources. So if he believes Saints can compete towards the top, why so much doubt in him, he has put down a lot of evidence in the last 3 years that show a lot of substance. Remember... I'm not the one ruling things out completely. But Cortese has done little to suggest so far he is merely full of hot air. Take a trip to Staplewood if you want to see ambition backed up with resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 So we will have ambition and large wealth (comparitive to our peers) to invest in the playing side this time round then? We'll find out soon enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Would this be the same not particularly wealthy or ambitious people that lead us to our highest ever finish and signed the current European footballer of the year and England international and the worlds best goalkeeper at that time? Whilst still at The Dell, which was significantly holding them back from progressing any more. Plus as you have just stated, a club like Saints have been capable of finishing 2nd, signing the current European footballer of the year and the World's best goalkeeper - albeit 30 years ago but you were the one that brought it up not me! You really aren't helping your argument here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 this is laughable spurs are keeping hold of modric by their finger nails...and they will finish in the top 4 ffs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Who knows? I don't and you don't. However things like unveiling £15 million training ground improvements and category one academy plans whilst a League One club does suggest Cortese has both high ambition and high resources. So if he believes Saints can compete towards the top, why so much doubt in him, he has put down a lot of evidence in the last 3 years that show a lot of substance. Remember... I'm not the one ruling things out completely. But Cortese has done little to suggest so far he is merely full of hot air. Take a trip to Staplewood if you want to see ambition backed up with resources. Does opening Staplewood and building a new 32,000 seater, £30m ground not count as ambitious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 All we have to do is sign players we can't afford on massive wages but make the payments over 5 years. When we get in trouble, the sugar daddy chairman will bail us out. This will be great because at the end of the season we will be in the champions league and still have the amazing players. If anyone speaks out of turn, we fine them. We send our assistant manager to the press conferences and we declare an interest in all players under 21 years old with a PA or -09 or higher. At least that's what I do on football manager and everything works out fine there. anything is possible. I took Eastleigh to league one in the 2009 version. If Eastleigh can do that is 9 seasons why cant Saints be in the champions league in two? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Whilst still at The Dell, which was significantly holding them back from progressing any more. We finished 2nd to one of the best sides this country has ever seen who dominated Europe in the early 80's. We signed the current European footballer of the year, the England goalkeeper who was the best in the world. If we did this under Cortese whilst at St Marys would you say that we were run by people who lacked ambition and could not progress any further? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Who knows? I don't and you don't. No, but what we do know is that Cortese has continually said that the club will be run self-sustainably. If that's the case, I'm just wondering where this funding you speak of for the team (not the infrastructure) is going to come from. Because we would clearly need quite a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Does opening Staplewood and building a new 32,000 seater, £30m ground not count as ambitious? Lowe's Staplewood in 1998 is completely different to Cortese's Staplewood as it will be in 2013. Vastly different in scale, capital expenditure and ambition. St Mary's is merely a mid sized Premier League stadium, Lowe had little ambition beyond that. His initial ambitions were to build a 25,000 stadium at Stoneham, that clearly was far too small. Cortese on the other hand is building a training ground that wouldn't look out of place at a Champions League club. He has also stated his ambition to see St Mary's to be 45k+. Cortese has ambition far beyond Lowe settling for mid table in the Premier League. And so far Cortese has backed his ambition with success on the pitch and bricks/concrete etc off the pitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Charming Man Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Lowe's Staplewood in 1998 is completely different to Cortese's Staplewood as it will be in 2013. Vastly different in scale, capital expenditure and ambition. St Mary's is merely a mid sized Premier League stadium, Lowe had little ambition beyond that. His initial ambitions were to build a 25,000 stadium at Stoneham, that clearly was far too small. Cortese on the other hand is building a training ground that wouldn't look out of place at a Champions League club. He has also stated his ambition to see St Mary's to be 45k+. Cortese has ambition far beyond Lowe settling for mid table in the Premier League. And so far Cortese has backed his ambition with success on the pitch and bricks/concrete etc off the pitch. Then it won't look out of place within 5 years time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Lowe's Staplewood in 1998 is completely different to Cortese's Staplewood as it will be in 2013. Vastly different in scale, capital expenditure and ambition. St Mary's is merely a mid sized Premier League stadium, Lowe had little ambition beyond that. His initial ambitions were to build a 25,000 stadium at Stoneham, that clearly was far too small. Cortese on the other hand is building a training ground that wouldn't look out of place at a Champions League club. He has also stated his ambition to see St Mary's to be 45k+. Cortese has ambition far beyond Lowe settling for mid table in the Premier League. And so far Cortese has backed his ambition with success on the pitch and bricks/concrete etc off the pitch. but if we finish second and sign Messi and Joe Hart he will lack ambition, yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 (edited) No, but what we do know is that Cortese has continually said that the club will be run self-sustainably. If that's the case, I'm just wondering where this funding you speak of for the team (not the infrastructure) is going to come from. Because we would clearly need quite a lot. To be fair Saints support is a bit of an unknown quantity. We have always been limited by either the size of the ground or the lack of resources/ambition of the owner. We have NEVER had the opportunity to fulfil our potential so there is no point looking at historical stats. How big we could go is up for debate, I know for a fact that Cortese will have a clearer idea than you. He will know how many unique visitors there are to the website, how many people are interested in buying tickets, target catchment area etc. Another thing in Saints advantage is the changing demographic of football. It's no longer a working man's game it's all about a day out for middle class families and corporate. We are in one of the wealthier areas of the country compared to some of the historicaly bigger clubs. Edited 9 May, 2012 by aintforever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 but if we finish second and sign Messi and Joe Hart he will lack ambition, yes? I said ambition and resources. Not just one but both. The resources needed to sign players in the early 1980's were relatively tiny even if Shilton and Keegan were on large wages for the era. I hope you weren't one of the people that used to criticise me for using old data to support my point. You are now going back over 30 years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Third Coming Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 So we've got to compete with Sunderland as well for a Champs League place, it just gets tougher and tougher....... Yes. On what ludicrous planet was it going to be easy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Yes. On what ludicrous planet was it going to be easy? we have to compete with..... sunderland newcastle reading (rich new owner) newcastle everton liverpool spurs arsenal chelsea man u man c villa (new manager) yeah, no worries.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Lowe's Staplewood in 1998 is completely different to Cortese's Staplewood as it will be in 2013. Vastly different in scale, capital expenditure and ambition. St Mary's is merely a mid sized Premier League stadium, Lowe had little ambition beyond that. His initial ambitions were to build a 25,000 stadium at Stoneham, that clearly was far too small. Cortese on the other hand is building a training ground that wouldn't look out of place at a Champions League club. He has also stated his ambition to see St Mary's to be 45k+. Cortese has ambition far beyond Lowe settling for mid table in the Premier League. And so far Cortese has backed his ambition with success on the pitch and bricks/concrete etc off the pitch. Loads of people compliment Staplewood, see Lallana's recent quotes. Of course, it will now need updating. Then we have a doubling of our home capacity with a new ground - I'm no fan of Lowe, but why doesn't that count as ambition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 (edited) I said ambition and resources. Not just one but both. The resources needed to sign players in the early 1980's were relatively tiny. But we had the rescources at the time to sign them. Obviously, or they wouldn't have signed. Neither would Alan Ball. Or England centre half Dave Watson. If you have ever heard or read an interview with Lawrie Mac he says we were very close to signing Trevor Francis from Forest but Clough pulled the plug on it at the last minute. Yes, Trevor Francis, the first £1m player. Not bad for a club with no ambition or resources. Yet still Williams went to Arsenal. odd. So if Cortese achieves the same he would lack ambition, yes. Edited 9 May, 2012 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Third Coming Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 we have to compete with..... sunderland newcastle reading (rich new owner) newcastle everton liverpool spurs arsenal chelsea man u man c villa (new manager) yeah, no worries.. Were you not aware these clubs were in the Premiership? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 To be fair Saints support is a bit of an unknown quantity. We have always been limited by either the size of the ground or the lack of resources/ambition of the owner. We have NEVER had the opportunity to fulfil our potential so there is no point looking at historical stats. How big we could go is up for debate, I know for a fact that Cortese will have a clearer idea than you. He will know how many unique visitors there are to the website, how many people are interested in buying tickets, target catchment area etc. Another thing in Saints advantage is the changing demographic of football. It's no longer a working man's game it's all about a day out for middle class families and corporate. We are in one of the wealthier areas of the country compared to some of the historicaly bigger clubs. Ha ha, what??!! Working class young men are no longer a key demographic when it comes to frequenting a football game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 But we had the rescources at the time to sign them. Obviously, or they wouldn't have signed. Neither would Alan Ball. Or England centre half Dave Watson. If you have ever heard or read an interview with Lawrie Mac he says we were very close to signing Trevor Francis from Forest but Clough pulled the plug on it at the last minute. Yes, Trevor Francis, the first £1m player. Not bad for a club with no ambition or resources. Yet still Williams went to Arsenal. odd. What point are you trying to make? You are providing evidence of Southampton able to sign very high quality players and finish 2nd in the top flight. You are doing all of this whilst trying to support an argument that Saints can never compete at the highest level. Yes, Williams joined Arsenal, but one player leaving doesn't take away the high league finishes and high quality internationals joining Saints. You seem very confused... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Working class young men are no longer a key demographic when it comes to frequenting a football game? It is certainly less than in any other decade of the last 120 years. Family stands, corporates, middle classes, children, woman etc etc all take up far higher % of the crowd than ever before. He is right as well about the area, Hampshire is relatively affluent compared to many other areas in England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 What point are you trying to make? You are providing evidence of Southampton able to sign very high quality players and finish 2nd in the top flight. You are doing all of this whilst trying to support an argument that Saints can never compete at the highest level. Yes, Williams joined Arsenal, but one player leaving doesn't take away the high league finishes and high quality internationals joining Saints. You seem very confused... Not at all, you do. You said Saints were run by unamitious people in the 80's which was why we could never progress better than 2nd in the league and signing European footballer of the year. So unless Cortese does better he too will lack ambiton, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 It is certainly less than in any other decade of the last 120 years. Family stands, corporates, middle classes, children, woman etc etc all take up far higher % of the crowd than ever before. He is right as well about the area, Hampshire is relatively affluent compared to many other areas in England. So you agree with him that its no longer a working man's game? That its only about a day out for the family and the corporates? I think I might have to disagree with that, if I'm honest. Working young men are still very much a primary target market for football clubs, and forever will be. Even corporate seats are aimed at companies and the working man. Seems a strange strategy to cut out that source of potential customer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPTCount Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Then it won't look out of place within 5 years time. just seen ur location, and wow, u know racism isn't cool hombre? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 Not at all, you do. You said Saints were run by unamitious people in the 80's which was why we could never progress better than 2nd in the league and signing European footballer of the year. So unless Cortese does better he too will lack ambiton, no? How many more times, I said ambition AND resources. The resources required to sign top players back then was not a huge amount more than for an average player, there isn't the gap there is today. Liebherr and Cortese have high ambition like in the early 80's at Saints but also resources on another level to that of the early 80's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPTCount Posted 9 May, 2012 Share Posted 9 May, 2012 So you agree with him that its no longer a working man's game? That its only about a day out for the family and the corporates? I think I might have to disagree with that, if I'm honest. Working young men are still very much a primary target market for football clubs, and forever will be. this notion of a working man's game is lolz central, we don't even have a working class anymore and fyi being a chav doesn't make u working class, doing grunt work in heavy industry does Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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