theyin Posted 5 May, 2012 Share Posted 5 May, 2012 Homework for the summer now lads. No rush, you've got a few months.With Reading axing 13 players to comply, who will be worrying about a tap on their shoulder at SMS and who should be expecting a call to get on the bus? Straight and simple, who is in your... realistic (ie no RVP, Messi, Tevez & the like, not this season anyway)... 25 come August? Good luck. You may start writing....now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smackalec Posted 5 May, 2012 Share Posted 5 May, 2012 Its not as simple as that. I believe that all players in the squad who have come through the acadamy and others that we have signed who are under 23 at the start of the season are exempt for the 25 man rule. i.e Mario Ballotelli is not in man citys 25 man squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smackalec Posted 5 May, 2012 Share Posted 5 May, 2012 http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/New-Premier-League-25-man-squad-rules-explained-What-the-new-regulations-mean-for-your-club-article569649.html Sorry its 21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iowred&white Posted 5 May, 2012 Share Posted 5 May, 2012 how does the naming of your squad work with regards to the transfer windows. what i mean is if a squad is named prior to the start of the season do clubs submit a revised squad after the january transfer window Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 5 May, 2012 Share Posted 5 May, 2012 how does the naming of your squad work with regards to the transfer windows. what i mean is if a squad is named prior to the start of the season do clubs submit a revised squad after the january transfer windowIf you read the article above you will find the answer, item 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 5 May, 2012 Share Posted 5 May, 2012 Looking at the current squad and omitting all of the u21s, and some of the obvious leavers (Jaidi, Forte, Homes, Dickson, Falque, etc) we only have a squad of 23 anyway (we have no problem naming 8 home grown players, in fact there are not many players that don't qualify, Hooiveld, Fonte, de Ridder, Lee at a guess). I suspect we will lose a couple of others (Barnard?) so will have several spaces for new players. If one or two new players that we sign are also under 21 we would not have any issue with this rule. I seem to recall llast year that several teams did not even name 25 players on 1 September. The thing that is worrying at the moment is that we have no established 1st team squad players under 21. That is shocking really. OK, one or two youngsters were on the verge last year but only Ward-Prowse looked like breaking through. Definitely think we need to bring in one or two young players who already have some experience. Would really like to get Tom Ince, assuming Blackpool don't go up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 5 May, 2012 Share Posted 5 May, 2012 (edited) The thing that is worrying at the moment is that we have no established 1st team squad players under 21. That is shocking really. OK, one or two youngsters were on the verge last year but only Ward-Prowse looked like breaking through. Definitely think we need to bring in one or two young players who already have some experience. Would really like to get Tom Ince, assuming Blackpool don't go up. Why is it shocking? As far as I can see, the likes of Man City, Man United, Arsenal, Spurs etc struggle to find an under 21 in their starting line up. Arsenal have Oxo in their squad but paid £15M for the privilege, plus injured Jack Wilshere, I can't think of too many others that are knocking on the door of the first team at the other top clubs. Edited 5 May, 2012 by The Kraken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Saint Posted 5 May, 2012 Share Posted 5 May, 2012 The thing that is worrying at the moment is that we have no established 1st team squad players under 21. That is shocking really. OK, one or two youngsters were on the verge last year but only Ward-Prowse looked like breaking through. Definitely think we need to bring in one or two young players who already have some experience. Would really like to get Tom Ince, assuming Blackpool don't go up. That is very true, thing to remember in all of this is that as a club we were on the bones of our backside 3 years ago, and beyond so the production line of nippers probably has taken a knock as a result. That said the fact that the under 18s squad has had a season akin to our days of the Dyer, Bale, Walcott, Blackstock, Best, etc squads seems we are not far off a little raft of nippers coming of the production line. Most folks are impressed with our facilities at Staplewood, when the Southampton La Masia is completed we are going to be fighting off some of the best young players available out there. Especially when you consider that Chelsea and Man City just buy in talent rather than nurture it, once re established in the prem if the "Southampton way" proves to be productive especially where this home grown rule is actioned we could have a very nice little selection of youngsters coming through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 5 May, 2012 Share Posted 5 May, 2012 Why is it shocking? As far as I can see, the likes of Man City, Man United, Arsenal, Spurs etc struggle to find an under 21 in their starting line up. Arsenal have Oxo in their squad but paid £15M for the privilege, plus injured Jack Wilshere, I can't think of too many others that are knocking on the door of the first team at the other top clubs. Balotelli was under 21 last year, Walker at Spurs, Ramsey at Arsenal (last year), OK I'm comparing to last year, but that is reasonable as this will be our first year under the rules. The stark fact is that due to our problems over the last 5-6 years our much hyped Academy has provided no input into the current first team other than Adam Lallana who is now 23, other than Oxo last season. Thats a huge gap, very few clubs have no first team players in this age range. We are seriously considered by many to be a young team, but actually we aren't. It is something the management will surely look to put right by bringing in a couple of young emerging players capable of finding their way into the first team next season. Will be happy to see Ward-Prowse or someone else making it, but find it difficult to imagine given their lack of impact in the past season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_John Posted 5 May, 2012 Share Posted 5 May, 2012 For Me 3 Goalkeepers (=3) 2 players for every position (+20) 5th centre half plus 5th forward (+2) Goalkeepers (3) (1) Kelvin + (2) AN Other + (3) AN Other or poss Bart Fullbacks (4) (1) Frazer + (2) Danny B + (3) Foxy; then there is a decision to make on how close Shaw is to 1st team football (at PL level). If more than 12 months then I would look to get Wayne Bridge in (on Saints wages) and let Ryan and Dan H leave. If he is going to hold his own at PL level next season then keep Dan Harding for another season as backup. Release/Sell :- Ryan D Centre Halves (5) (1) Jose + (2) Jos + (3) AN Other + (4) AN Other + (5) Aaron M and then let Dan Seabourne go out on loan for 6/12 months. Radhi to retire. Midfield (8 ) (1) Adam + (2) Morgan + (3) Jack + (4) Guly + (5) Steve (6) + AN Other + (7 & 8 ) 2 from 3 - (a) Dean (good leader on the pitch question mark over 1st touch), (b) Chapps or © AN Other. Release/Sell :- Holmes and Punchean. Reeves & Ward-Prowse are under 21 to play in Cup games plus may be on the bench for league games. Forwards (5) (1) Rickie + (2) Chung + (3) Billy + (4) AN Other + (5) AN Other Send Lee Barnard out on loan for 12 months. Release/Sell :- David C, Forte Doble + Hoskins to go out on loan. AN Others (6-8 ) GK (1 poss 2); Kuszczak (manure/watford) I believe is out of contract OR Foster (Brum/WBA) FB (poss 1) : Bridge if Shaw not ready. CB (2 new ones) :- 2 from Upson + Knight + Dann MF (1 to 2) :- Lolo + Snodgrass Forwards (2 new) : JayRod + Jarvis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 5 May, 2012 Share Posted 5 May, 2012 (edited) LOL @ "centre half" being used in a discussion about Premier League squad homegrown criteria in the 21st century. Also, the kids don't count as part of the 25 so there's no decision required about Shaw, etc. Also, Wayne Bridge, Upson and Kuszczak would be absolutely terrible signings. Edited 5 May, 2012 by The9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 5 May, 2012 Share Posted 5 May, 2012 Balotelli was under 21 last year, Walker at Spurs, Ramsey at Arsenal (last year), OK I'm comparing to last year, but that is reasonable as this will be our first year under the rules. The stark fact is that due to our problems over the last 5-6 years our much hyped Academy has provided no input into the current first team other than Adam Lallana who is now 23, other than Oxo last season. Thats a huge gap, very few clubs have no first team players in this age range. We are seriously considered by many to be a young team, but actually we aren't. It is something the management will surely look to put right by bringing in a couple of young emerging players capable of finding their way into the first team next season. Will be happy to see Ward-Prowse or someone else making it, but find it difficult to imagine given their lack of impact in the past season. Morgan Schneiderlin is 22, as are Jack Cork and Aaron Martin. And as you say Lallana is 23. Our oldest first teamers are Jos (29) and Hammond (29), which in footballing terms is not old at all. Yep, we've lost Bale, Walcott and Oxo. Its debatable whether they would have stayed if we were in the Prem anyway, but I think the sheer talent of those coming through has skewed expectations of when youth prospects will hit the first team. All 3 of those came through fantastically early in their careers, and the higher level you go the harder it is for under 21s to come through, if at all of course. Its true to say that there doesn't (yet) seem to be another player like that coming through, but that's a really high benchmark to set. Shaw is said to be potentially on the verge and attracting lots of interest, plus a couple of others too. We'd all prefer a team of Saints graduates but unfortunately its never going to happen. In the meantime our prospects still look very good, so I see no reason to declare the situation as "shocking". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 5 May, 2012 Share Posted 5 May, 2012 You did forget Kelvin at 35... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 5 May, 2012 Share Posted 5 May, 2012 You did forget Kelvin at 35... Pah. Keepers don't count, everyone knows that...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toofarnorth Posted 5 May, 2012 Share Posted 5 May, 2012 Morgan Schneiderlin is 22, as are Jack Cork and Aaron Martin. And as you say Lallana is 23. Our oldest first teamers are Jos (29) and Hammond (29), which in footballing terms is not old at all. Yep, we've lost Bale, Walcott and Oxo. Its debatable whether they would have stayed if we were in the Prem anyway, but I think the sheer talent of those coming through has skewed expectations of when youth prospects will hit the first team. All 3 of those came through fantastically early in their careers, and the higher level you go the harder it is for under 21s to come through, if at all of course. Its true to say that there doesn't (yet) seem to be another player like that coming through, but that's a really high benchmark to set. Shaw is said to be potentially on the verge and attracting lots of interest, plus a couple of others too. We'd all prefer a team of Saints graduates but unfortunately its never going to happen. In the meantime our prospects still look very good, so I see no reason to declare the situation as "shocking". Agree. Look at people like Tom Cleverly and Henri Lansbury who are only just coming through now at their respective clubs at age 22. Realistically it could be 5 years before Ward-prowse, shaw, sinclair etc are first team ready, but that does not mean they aren't great prospects. Our rapid rise to the premisership may mean our youngsters have to wait a little longer and maybe get lower league expeiience out on loan rather than in our first team, which to be honest i'm pretty happy about. Also I suppose we shouldn't forget that reserve football should be a lot more competitive next year hopefully allowing some players to progress that little bit quicker. In summary i'm not concerned about our lack of first team youngsters. They are exactly that 'youngsters' and need time to progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 5 May, 2012 Share Posted 5 May, 2012 , so I see no reason to declare the situation as "shocking". Its shocking as a long term Saints supporter. We have always had young players coming through, one or two at least, right back to the days of Mick Channon in 1966/67 and so on. That is what is shocking. Shocking that because of all of the problems we have had we have a significant hole in our assembly line of young talent. But theres not a lot can be done, just a sad reflecttion on our recent history. I don't see anyone breaking through next season either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint since 66 Posted 5 May, 2012 Share Posted 5 May, 2012 Rickie is 30! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicestersaint Posted 5 May, 2012 Share Posted 5 May, 2012 I am hoping that several will break into the squad next season including Luke Shaw about whom I have heard great things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazlo78 Posted 5 May, 2012 Share Posted 5 May, 2012 Its shocking as a long term Saints supporter. We have always had young players coming through, one or two at least, right back to the days of Mick Channon in 1966/67 and so on. That is what is shocking. Shocking that because of all of the problems we have had we have a significant hole in our assembly line of young talent. But theres not a lot can be done, just a sad reflecttion on our recent history. I don't see anyone breaking through next season either. You're conveniently omitting that the Academy has delivered Walcott (23), Bale (22) and Oxo (18 ) who have all been sold as a result of their succes with the team. Our expectations are extremely high if we are not content with "only" having Ward-Prowse, Shaw, Reeves and Martin break through and with Hoskins and others still to fulfil their potential... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 5 May, 2012 Share Posted 5 May, 2012 Its shocking as a long term Saints supporter. We have always had young players coming through, one or two at least, right back to the days of Mick Channon in 1966/67 and so on. That is what is shocking. Shocking that because of all of the problems we have had we have a significant hole in our assembly line of young talent. But theres not a lot can be done, just a sad reflecttion on our recent history. I don't see anyone breaking through next season either. Alpine Saint has got a new log in. Down negative boy, down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 5 May, 2012 Share Posted 5 May, 2012 Its shocking as a long term Saints supporter. We have always had young players coming through, one or two at least, right back to the days of Mick Channon in 1966/67 and so on. That is what is shocking. Shocking that because of all of the problems we have had we have a significant hole in our assembly line of young talent. But theres not a lot can be done, just a sad reflecttion on our recent history. I don't see anyone breaking through next season either. Nonsense. What about our most succesful period in recent history under the likes of Hoddle and Strachan? We didn't have any youngsters breaking into the first team between Wayne Bridge in 1998 and Theo in 2005. Baird made his debut aged 21 but really that was about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westofshannonsaint Posted 5 May, 2012 Share Posted 5 May, 2012 I posted the following a few weeks ago (& its open to further correction) 25 man squad rules (edited*).... Each 25-man squad must include at least eight 'home-grown' players - "A home grown player is defined as one who, irrespective of his nationality or age, has been registered with any club affiliated to the Football Association or the Welsh Football Association for a period, continuous or not, of three entire seasons or 36 months prior to his 21st birthday (or the end of the season during which he turns 21)." In addition to the 25-man named squad, clubs can use an unlimited number of players aged 21 or under. - "An Under 21 player is defined as one who is under the age of 21 on 1st January in the year in which the season commences. For the 2012/13 campaign Under 21 players will have been born on or after 1st January 1991*." Only in exceptional circumstances, such as a goalkeeper crisis, can changes be made outside the window, and then only if the Premier League board approves the changes. Even if a player is not named in the 25-man squad, they can still play in the FA Cup, League Cup... http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news...cle569649.html * = I changed the dates to make it relevant for next season Current squad (over 21) http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/page/Profi...,10280,00.html http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/so...erein_180.html Kelvin Davies - contract expires in 2014 Frazer Richardson - 2013 Dan Harding - 2014 Morgan Schneiderlin - 2014 José Fonte* - 2015 Rickie Lambert - 2014 Jack Cork - 2015 Lee Barnard - 2014 Guly* - 2013 Billy Sharp - 2015 Danny Butterfield - 2013 Danny Fox - 2015 Dean Hammond - 2015 Radhi Jaïdi* - 2012 Aaron Martin - 2014 Richard Chaplow - 2013 Tadanari Lee*- 2014 Adam Lallana - 2015 Bartosz Białkowski - 2012 David Connolly - 2012 Danny Seaborne - 2013 Jos Hooiveld* - 2015 Tommy Forecast - 2013 Steve De Ridder* - 2014 Jason Puncheon - 2013 Jonathan Forte - 2014** Ryan Dickson - 2013** Lee Holmes - 2012** * = not home grown player, although we have no issues there. ** = currently out on loan numbers do not = squad numbers. ...If we improve the squad (which we will) we need to make a little room. Who do we sell & who do we send out on loan? & what contracts should we look to extend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 6 May, 2012 Share Posted 6 May, 2012 For Me 3 Goalkeepers (=3) 2 players for every position (+20) 5th centre half plus 5th forward (+2) Goalkeepers (3) (1) Kelvin + (2) AN Other + (3) AN Other or poss Bart Fullbacks (4) (1) Frazer + (2) Danny B + (3) Foxy; then there is a decision to make on how close Shaw is to 1st team football (at PL level). If more than 12 months then I would look to get Wayne Bridge in (on Saints wages) and let Ryan and Dan H leave. If he is going to hold his own at PL level next season then keep Dan Harding for another season as backup. Release/Sell :- Ryan D Centre Halves (5) (1) Jose + (2) Jos + (3) AN Other + (4) AN Other + (5) Aaron M and then let Dan Seabourne go out on loan for 6/12 months. Radhi to retire. Midfield (8 ) (1) Adam + (2) Morgan + (3) Jack + (4) Guly + (5) Steve (6) + AN Other + (7 & 8 ) 2 from 3 - (a) Dean (good leader on the pitch question mark over 1st touch), (b) Chapps or © AN Other. Release/Sell :- Holmes and Punchean. Reeves & Ward-Prowse are under 21 to play in Cup games plus may be on the bench for league games. Forwards (5) (1) Rickie + (2) Chung + (3) Billy + (4) AN Other + (5) AN Other Send Lee Barnard out on loan for 12 months. Release/Sell :- David C, Forte Doble + Hoskins to go out on loan. all sounds pretty sensible to me. I'd go along with those..except that with two dozen players already " named " by various media /fan sources as new signings, I wouldn't dare to double guess who NA might buy in. Probably none of them. After the signing of Chung ..and on a free..nothing would surprise me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 6 May, 2012 Share Posted 6 May, 2012 Morgan Schneiderlin is 22, as are Jack Cork and Aaron Martin. And as you say Lallana is 23. Our oldest first teamers are Jos (29) and Hammond (29), which in footballing terms is not old at all. QUOTE] surely Morgan counts as home-grown now doesn't he ? ...didn't he join when he was 18 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 6 May, 2012 Share Posted 6 May, 2012 You're conveniently omitting that the Academy has delivered Walcott (23), Bale (22) and Oxo (18 ) who have all been sold as a result of their succes with the team. Our expectations are extremely high if we are not content with "only" having Ward-Prowse, Shaw, Reeves and Martin break through and with Hoskins and others still to fulfil their potential... No I,m not.Mentioned Oxo several times and also Theo and Bale. Point. Is we have a missing few years with no breakthroughs. If people can,t see that then c,est la vie. Martin is not an academy product by the way and is also 22 or 23. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 6 May, 2012 Share Posted 6 May, 2012 Alpine Saint has got a new log in. Down negative boy, down.Take off the rose tinted specs. Sorry that you can't deal with facts. This is not negativity, just a simple observation as the result of this thread. Saints always had young home grown players throughout our history. At the moment we have no-one other than Lallana who is now 23. Quite clear that no-one is on the verge of breaking through in the PL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 6 May, 2012 Share Posted 6 May, 2012 Take off the rose tinted specs. Sorry that you can't deal with facts. This is not negativity, just a simple observation as the result of this thread. Saints always had young home grown players throughout our history. At the moment we have no-one other than Lallana who is now 23. Quite clear that no-one is on the verge of breaking through in the PL. We don't have too many home grown players in our team because we've sold them; in original deals that totalled more than £30M. Had we been able to keep those players we would now have a formidable first team with a high proportion of home grown talent, including one player who is 18 years old. Just because we had to sell a player who came through the academy system, it doesn't for a minute suggest the youth system isn't working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 6 May, 2012 Share Posted 6 May, 2012 (edited) surely Morgan counts as home-grown now doesn't he ? ...didn't he join when he was 18 ? Home grown players have to have been at the club for 5 years before their 21st birthday - I think. Take off the rose tinted specs. Sorry that you can't deal with facts. This is not negativity, just a simple observation as the result of this thread. Saints always had young home grown players throughout our history. At the moment we have no-one other than Lallana who is now 23. Quite clear that no-one is on the verge of breaking through in the PL. The subs bench being cut down and the fact that we're successful - and therefore have more to lose if a youth player doesn't perform - are the reasons we haven't seen anyone break through recently. Worth remembering that in cup games last season, Reeves and Ward-prowse played a few times with the latter even getting on the scoresheet. Edited 6 May, 2012 by Saint_clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 6 May, 2012 Share Posted 6 May, 2012 Home grown players have to have been at the club for 5 years before their 21st birthday - I think. 3 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jam Posted 6 May, 2012 Share Posted 6 May, 2012 We don't have too many home grown players in our team because we've sold them; in original deals that totalled more than £30M. Had we been able to keep those players we would now have a formidable first team with a high proportion of home grown talent, including one player who is 18 years old. Just because we had to sell a player who came through the academy system, it doesn't for a minute suggest the youth system isn't working. Just to add to this, this season the following academy graduates have been playing in the Prem: Bale Walcott Chamberlain Surman Dyer Best Baird Three players short of an interesting team. There's also Ranger and Williamson at Newcastle, but I'm not sure how much the academy can/should take credit for them. Also, would Bart qualify as home grown now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 6 May, 2012 Share Posted 6 May, 2012 Home grown players have to have been at the club for 5 years before their 21st birthday - I think. QUOTE] I thought I read THREE years..or ? if so then Morgan surely qualifies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 7 May, 2012 Share Posted 7 May, 2012 3 years. ... up to the end of the season which begins in the year during which they turn 21. A player could be 22 at the start of the season & 23 at the end, and still be considered as under 21 for qualification purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M271 Posted 7 May, 2012 Share Posted 7 May, 2012 We don't have too many home grown players in our team because we've sold them; in original deals that totalled more than £30M. Had we been able to keep those players we would now have a formidable first team with a high proportion of home grown talent, including one player who is 18 years old. Just because we had to sell a player who came through the academy system, it doesn't for a minute suggest the youth system isn't working. I think that being able to have 7 subs and I presume participating in the Premier League Reserve League will help to give our Youth Academy players a better route from the Youth League to our 1st team. The current sub rule of only 5 and 2nd team league set up in the championship seems to stifle youngsters progression, although it does seem to work OK in Leagues 1 and 2 (ala Crewe) where standards are lower and promising youngsters can compete better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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