St Mary's - What we might expect to see happen (and possibly announced soon)...

[capitalsaint]

Tell your mate Mr Watertight Wes that this is a forum for trivial musings. He's trying to cross examine my backside like he's Rumpole of the freaking Bailey.

 

I don't think I am being sensitive - you're bawling into your beer about not being as clever as I am. Cheer up Frank, it just wasn't meant to be for you.

 

I think you're just far more aggressive than them.

[Gingeletiss]

Yes, but if that was the case be more cost effctive just to find a site to build a hotel... not a new stadium.

 

All commercial opportunities will be explored, we know that. Ticket pricing will be looked at and likely to go up a bit as demand is higher.. expansion? who knows, could be good if funding available, could we fill it? Depends on product/success....

 

Lets be honest though as well, desire for stadium expansion is also driven by ego - it says 'biger club' -etc, and I am sure NC is not immune to that either - Thing is it gets more expensive year on year so my question is more to the fans... do we have enough who will go to make it a possibility? We all like to lord it up over other clubs about size etc/fan base, but the truth may be we different to our expectations. All I would say is I dont know what's possible, but economically it would make sense if we could for obvious reasons.

 

I think Frank, that the cruise boat industry, is a good comparison! They are building them bigger now, and the customers keep coming, and cabins left vacant, are sold off really cheap..Why?, simple, they make their money onboard the ship. I think this is what NC is after achieving, get the fans in the stadium earyl, keep them late, and give them a vehicle in which to spend spend spend.

Edited 21 April, 2012 by Gingeletiss

[Fan The Flames]

Lol. Quality.I'm not at all sure I agree with you.But that was a great post and genuinely made me laugh out loud.(I feared for a second that a 46K capacity might have an unbecoming effect on me!)

Seriously why did it make you laugh, there is nothing funny in it. CB Fry is complete ****, he and others are ruining this message board.

[dune]

Talking of Sunderland the difference between North East and the South is that the NE is traditionally more working class and therefore there are proportionately more football fans. However the game has changed now and it's continuing to change. I noticed four things about our fans at P'boro which were different to when I started following Saints 1. There are more business men, 2. There are more weirdos in fancy dress, 3. There are more women, 4. There are a few non white fans. Given our wealthy catchment area there is no doubt that that we could expand/relocate and increase out average gates provided the product is good.

[slickmick]

I'm sure MLG has proof of funds that we can afford this.

[The Kraken]

I'm sure MLG has proof of funds that we can afford this.

 

It doesn't matter. The owners are obviously just going to pay for it and won't expect to see a return on investment.

[Wes Tender]

Tell your mate Mr Watertight Wes that this is a forum for trivial musings. He's trying to cross examine my backside like he's Rumpole of the freaking Bailey.

 

Good morning, sonny.

 

If it appears that I am examining your backside, it is because I am fascinated by the apparent prospect that most of what you say seems to emanate from your posterior orifice.

 

The thought did cross my mind that by responding in this way, if you were clever enough you could counter by accusing me of lowering the debate by the same sort of childish insults that you were flinging around at all those who disagreed with your edicts. But on reflection, I think that this response falls under the banner of repartee or banter. Or even trivial musings.

[doddisalegend]

So first season back in the PL what would people like to see more 18mil spent on extra seating or 18mil spent on the playing squad? I'm assuming we haven't got the money to do both. Expansion of SMS will probabaly bring in extra revenue long term...but 18million on strengthening the squad to mid table PL side would bring in 60mil a season straight away......

[CB Fry]

It doesn't matter. The owners are obviously just going to pay for it and won't expect to see a return on investment.

 

 

The club are going to use it to bring in a swathe of flexible pricing plans to bring the masses in.

 

After all who can forget the raft of flexible pricing initiatives the club have run in the last two seasons when we've only had between six and eight thousand empty seats to fill.

 

Bringing in half season tickets was brilliant. And I rememember Cortese doing something special for the old folks earlier this season too. All those family special discounts to bring in the kids in this season - brilliant - I'm sure Frank and Wes can remember the precise details of what those offers were. And that way he made the Pompey game really accessible for everyone. I was worried he would just use it as a way to flog full price tickets for other less attractive games but he is far more flexible than that.

 

So with all the activities that Nicola "Mr Fleixible" has put in in his time here to fill the thousands of seats each week I cannot wait to see how flexible he is going to be when we have ten thousand more. Those school kids are going to be so lucky. They're our future fans you know.

[Wes Tender]

The club are going to use it to bring in a swathe of flexible pricing plans to bring the masses in.

 

After all who can forget the raft of flexible pricing initiatives the club have run in the last two seasons when we've only had between six and eight thousand empty seats to fill.

 

Bringing in half season tickets was brilliant. And I rememember Cortese doing something special for the old folks earlier this season too. All those family special discounts to bring in the kids in this season - brilliant - I'm sure Frank and Wes can remember the precise details of what those offers were. And that way he made the Pompey game really accessible for everyone. I was worried he would just use it as a way to flog full price tickets for other less attractive games but he is far more flexible than that.

 

So with all the activities that Nicola "Mr Fleixible" has put in in his time here to fill the thousands of seats each week I cannot wait to see how flexible he is going to be when we have ten thousand more. Those school kids are going to be so lucky. They're our future fans you know.

 

Polished up your cystal ball have you? Doesn't it tell you that policies to fill an enlarged stadium in the Premiership might differ from those employed during the past couple of years in the lower leagues?

 

No? Perhaps you ought to buy a new one.

[Wes Tender]

So first season back in the PL what would people like to see more 18mil spent on extra seating or 18mil spent on the playing squad? I'm assuming we haven't got the money to do both. Expansion of SMS will probabaly bring in extra revenue long term...but 18million on strengthening the squad to mid table PL side would bring in 60mil a season straight away......

 

What evidence do you have that they could not afford both? As you say, you make an assumption based on guesswork. It is all purely hypothetical too.

[The Kraken]

Polished up your cystal ball have you? Doesn't it tell you that policies to fill an enlarged stadium in the Premiership might differ from those employed during the past couple of years in the lower leagues?

 

No? Perhaps you ought to buy a new one.

 

Does it really strike you as financially sensible in any way to spend many, many millions on increasing our capacity, only to then have to offer discounted tickets in an attempt to fill the newly created seats?

 

Why is this even being considered as a viable idea? It's completely arse about face; you fill the seats with full-paying customers first and then increase the capacity to satisfy demand.

[CB Fry]

Polished up your cystal ball have you? Doesn't it tell you that policies to fill an enlarged stadium in the Premiership might differ from those employed during the past couple of years in the lower leagues?

 

No? Perhaps you ought to buy a new one.

 

Don't need one . It's you and your chums who are projecting your own dreams of a wonderful world on flexible pricing on a man whose ACTIONS show him as someone who has no desire to devalue his product whatsoever.

[Turkish]

I think you're just far more aggressive than them.

 

And talks far more sense.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Does it really strike you as financially sensible in any way to spend many, many millions on increasing our capacity, only to then have to offer discounted tickets in an attempt to fill the newly created seats?

 

Why is this even being considered as a viable idea? It's completely arse about face; you fill the seats with full-paying customers first and then increase the capacity to satisfy demand.

 

But it's not as simple as that.

 

Henry Ford didn't turn his small company into the vast monolith it now is by building expensive cars in small numbers. He found a way of building lots of cars very cheaply and then selling them at a price that helped to created a new level of demand for his product. The analogy between the Model T and St Marys is of course a very rough and simplistic one, but it seems to me arguable that more - perhaps marginally cheaper seats - could indeed help create more demand in the both medium and long term.

 

This would all depend on the club becoming a established and successful PL club of course. This ambition (not stadium expansion) should be our top priority for now.

[Turkish]

Does it really strike you as financially sensible in any way to spend many, many millions on increasing our capacity, only to then have to offer discounted tickets in an attempt to fill the newly created seats?

 

Why is this even being considered as a viable idea? It's completely arse about face; you fill the seats with full-paying customers first and then increase the capacity to satisfy demand.

 

Somethng about Build it and they will come.

[Wes Tender]

Does it really strike you as financially sensible in any way to spend many, many millions on increasing our capacity, only to then have to offer discounted tickets in an attempt to fill the newly created seats?

 

Why is this even being considered as a viable idea? It's completely arse about face; you fill the seats with full-paying customers first and then increase the capacity to satisfy demand.

 

I suspect that in the event of a stadium expansion, every possible scenario will be examined by experts and I am confident that whatever we go for will be the right move. There are too many possibilities as to the alternatives available. For example, the blend between the number of seats available for corporate hospitality against those for ordinary fans has to be right. I strikes me that we have nowhere near the number of corporate boxes that we could sell each season and that is depriving us of valuable revenue. As for whether seats would have to be discounted or not, then that depends on how many we might be talking about. Certainly there are quite a few matches against the glory teams where we would sell out up to a certain ceiling number. The profitability gained from that has to weighed against the number of empty seats for those games against the unglamorous teams. Even then, accepting that there will be those empty seats, there are a few ways that they could be filled, either by a pricing system of gold/silver/bronze, or by twinning the ticket sales for glory matches with those for the unglamorous ones, to mention just two possibilities.

 

If the redevelopment is of the current stadium, then the infrastructure allows that to be done in stages, so that the capacity could be increases in stages and continue on as demand increases.

[stev2001]

I suspect that in the event of a stadium expansion, every possible scenario will be examined by experts and I am confident that whatever we go for will be the right move. There are too many possibilities as to the alternatives available. For example, the blend between the number of seats available for corporate hospitality against those for ordinary fans has to be right. I strikes me that we have nowhere near the number of corporate boxes that we could sell each season and that is depriving us of valuable revenue. As for whether seats would have to be discounted or not, then that depends on how many we might be talking about. Certainly there are quite a few matches against the glory teams where we would sell out up to a certain ceiling number. The profitability gained from that has to weighed against the number of empty seats for those games against the unglamorous teams. Even then, accepting that there will be those empty seats, there are a few ways that they could be filled, either by a pricing system of gold/silver/bronze, or by twinning the ticket sales for glory matches with those for the unglamorous ones, to mention just two possibilities.

 

If the redevelopment is of the current stadium, then the infrastructure allows that to be done in stages, so that the capacity could be increases in stages and continue on as demand increases.

 

^this^

[The Kraken]

If the redevelopment is of the current stadium, then the infrastructure allows that to be done in stages, so that the capacity could be increases in stages and continue on as demand increases.

 

Indeed. That's the point I'm making. The financially sensible thing to do (and which I'm sure SFC will do) is to monitor sales for a while, and wait for us to hit a few key performance indicators. At that point a more accurate decision can perhaps be made on what type of attendances we could expect to see in a bigger stadium, and therefore whether expansion is really feasible. Building a whole new stand, then finding out its actually a bit too big and then devalueing the product by lowering prices and offering incentives makes little business sense.

[stev2001]

Indeed. That's the point I'm making. The financially sensible thing to do (and which I'm sure SFC will do) is to monitor sales for a while, and wait for us to hit a few key performance indicators. At that point a more accurate decision can perhaps be made on what type of attendances we could expect to see in a bigger stadium, and therefore whether expansion is really feasible. Building a whole new stand, then finding out its actually a bit too big and then devalueing the product by lowering prices and offering incentives makes little business sense.

Only if that stand only increases seating capacity. If it also brings in income from other commerial avenues then it does make business sense.....long term

[The Kraken]

But it's not as simple as that.

 

Henry Ford didn't turn his small company into the vast monolith it now is by building expensive cars in small numbers. He found a way of building lots of cars very cheaply and then selling them at a price that helped to created a new level of demand for his product. The analogy between the Model T and St Marys is of course a very rough and simplistic one, but it seems to me arguable that more - perhaps marginally cheaper seats - could indeed help create more demand in the both medium and long term.

 

This would all depend on the club becoming a established and successful PL club of course. This ambition (not stadium expansion) should be our top priority for now.

 

Leaving aside the Ford analogy, as I can't make much sense of it or see how its at all releavnt . A lot of people seem convinced we'd have cheaper seats after spending millions and millions on an increased capacity. Really, what sort of business model is that? You increase supply to satisfy demand; not the other way round.

 

The conversation is irrelevant, as the club will do what they see fit, when they see fit. I'm just amazed so many people are convinced we're going to spend £20M or more just so that we can introduce more flexible, cheaper, discounted tickets.

[suewhistle]

I have to say I have no idea what you are getting at here.

 

Don't worry, we've noticed you're a bit obtuse.

[Frank's cousin]

Does it really strike you as financially sensible in any way to spend many, many millions on increasing our capacity, only to then have to offer discounted tickets in an attempt to fill the newly created seats?

 

Why is this even being considered as a viable idea? It's completely arse about face; you fill the seats with full-paying customers first and then increase the capacity to satisfy demand.

 

Thinnk the problem is some of you dont understand the concept of 'relative'. I cant read read NC's mind on this and if the strategy employed follows the current one, then over the next couple of seasons we could see more of teh same with a simple price hike that maxs out the revenue per occupied seat of SMS, based on teh oincreased potential demand... and whilst that demand exists, some will (and have) argued that is the sensinsible way to do it. - form a purely economic perspectice if there is NO option/choice/feasilibilty of doing anything but this, then that would be sensible.

 

However, IF (a big IF, please note) we have a some relative success and demand increases to the point where we sell out WITHOUT needing to make and reductions/concessions at a higher price point and thus restrict access to many core fans/social groups, then it becomes an obvious consideration if teh figures stack up.. that is all anyone is suggesting.

 

But you can make a case for a MODEL that a larger capacity, (if balanced against the development costs) DOES allow a broader spectrum of price band RELATIVE to the max price at SMS, maintaining the average price per seat but offering both better and more expensive seats + cheaper ones (relative to the max price at SMS) - and importantly because such a decision can only driven by commercial demand, greater numbers is better for other commercial revenue streams.

 

Have we or wil we ever reach the required level of demand? Who knows.. But there IS logic in being able to offer more fans a choice and attract greter numbers through flexible pricing models that capacity allows you to do. Why has he not done it right now? Why have we not filled SMS with kids deals and OAPs with bigger discounts?

 

I dont know the answer, but suspect it because a) they have not needed to given the current backing from the Liebherrs, and b) its possible that thay have been looking at the data to assess what demand there is at this price point for this level of product. Afterall, if they offer huge discounts in NPC then fans react to the BIGGER jump when promoted - just look at the resentment last season when prices were announced, despite the fact that there was not much difference between the and the previous ticket prices in the Championship - just looked like a big hike because of teh huge iscounts in L1....Possibly other reasons to, but just because this has not been a policy in league one and the NPC does not mean it COULD not change if demand/capacity balance were shifted in future.

 

Ticket pricing is always a delicate balancing act - the club wants max revenue - max sales, but know there will be a ceiling of what fans are willing to pay - they also know that they will be willing to pay more for better product in a top league but this will shift the demographic of the fans through the gate towards the more affluent - who spends mores so great, so why bother with the fans who cant afford a £800 ST, if you can sell 25k of them at that price ? (please not I am NOT saying we will, just using it to illustrate a point)

 

...wait for it... because i you have capacity to do so, without compromising revenue in fact increasing it, you MIGHT be able to sell 25K STs at £800 and another 8K at £650 and a load at £450... YES this is a simplistic assessment, but surely its clear that capacity provides flexibility dependent on demand.

 

All you need is a prodct that is of high enough quality consistently and you max the demand - would we need major expansion if Saints were regularly top 6 or 7 in the prem? I have no idea, no one on here does, depends on a large number of factors, but that does not make the concept any less valid for hyperthetical discussion.

[stev2001]

Leaving aside the Ford analogy, as I can't make much sense of it or see how its at all releavnt . A lot of people seem convinced we'd have cheaper seats after spending millions and millions on an increased capacity. Really, what sort of business model is that? You increase supply to satisfy demand; not the other way round.

 

The conversation is irrelevant, as the club will do what they see fit, when they see fit. I'm just amazed so many people are convinced we're going to spend £20M or more just so that we can introduce more flexible, cheaper, discounted tickets.

 

What is wrong with that if seating is not the only revenue that the new stand makes!

[The Kraken]

Only if that stand only increases seating capacity. If it also brings in income from other commerial avenues then it does make business sense.....long term

Firstly I think you're over-estimating just how much revenue the corporate areas bring in. Yes, they pay much more than regular ticket holders but the small proportion of customers and associated costs that go with it mean it isn't quite the all important money spinner you think it might be.

 

But read again what you've just said. IF an increased stand can fill the seats, and if it also fills new corporate boxes (which we just don't know right know, but corporate sales in the past couple of years have been extremely low), then yes, its worth expanding. NOBODY is denying that. But the club simply have to be certain that it will be commercially viable to do so. At the moment, tehre's certainly no evidence whatsoever that right now we need more corporate boxes, we've struggled to even sell half this season. And its a similar story with regular matchday tickets, where'r our average attendance this season will see us 5,000-6,000 short of capacity. To expand right now given those benchmarks doesn't make business sense.

[The Kraken]

However' date=' IF (a big IF, please note) we have a some relative success and demand increases to the point where we sell out WITHOUT needing to make and reductions/concessions at a higher price point and thus restrict access to many core fans/social groups, then it becomes an obvious consideration if teh figures stack up.. [b']that is all anyone is suggesting[/b].

 

No it isn't Frank. It really isn't.

[Frank's cousin]

Leaving aside the Ford analogy, as I can't make much sense of it or see how its at all releavnt . A lot of people seem convinced we'd have cheaper seats after spending millions and millions on an increased capacity. Really, what sort of business model is that? You increase supply to satisfy demand; not the other way round.

 

The conversation is irrelevant, as the club will do what they see fit, when they see fit. I'm just amazed so many people are convinced we're going to spend £20M or more just so that we can introduce more flexible, cheaper, discounted tickets.

 

Again to illustrate:

 

32K - max capacity max demand, ST waiting list, 3000-5000 regular not able to get tickets or afford them as max price for all seats possible - means reduced RANGE of ticket price, less concessions, OAPs, kids all pay full price say £45-£35, club is happy, better demographic, richer folk spending loadsa money in the concorses = Total match day income of £X

 

46K - same demand - everyone can fit it who wants to go, so you, but some issues reamin on affordabilty - you can now offer kids.OAP concessions as wel as increase the range from top seats with benefits for £50 to £30 = maybe 8000 more on the gate + 8000 more spending in the concourses = total match day income of £X++

 

Of course it depends on demand, but given how the demographic of football fans has shifted in part because of affordabilty, its not beyond the realms of what is rational to consider that greater capacity through greater pricing flexibilty will encourage a broader demographic?

[suewhistle]

So first season back in the PL what would people like to see more 18mil spent on extra seating or 18mil spent on the playing squad? I'm assuming we haven't got the money to do both. Expansion of SMS will probabaly bring in extra revenue long term...but 18million on strengthening the squad to mid table PL side would bring in 60mil a season straight away......

 

I really don't its an either/or like that. Investment in infrastructure is ammortised over a longer period whereas players have to be regarded as fairly disposable assets written-off over a pretty short time, even if there is a potential to make a profit on them - like the "profit" 'Arry made wheeling and dealing.

 

Given the investment in infrastructure on the training ground where returns are even more difficult to quantify and predict than ticket revenue I can't see the club sitting on their hands.

[sotonjoe]

Sunderland moved to a 42,000 stadium when at the time it was announced they only had...

 

- 10,000 season ticket holders

- averages gates of 16,000

- second tier of English football

 

Saints are currently...

 

- 16,000 season ticket holders

- 26,000 average gates

- second tier of English football

 

Before you go to your normal response of "were aren't Sunderland", look at the post of yours I just quoted, you are very general in it talking about what is the "be all and end all" for football clubs (not just Southampton). You contradict yourself!

 

It wasn't too long ago that they announced that they would have to cut their playing budget and stop making expensive signings because they were't selling as many tickets as expected. They are't the best role models if you're trying to justify Saints' stadium expansion. Their attendances have recently picked up because of their new manager I guess.

[stev2001]

Firstly I think you're over-estimating just how much revenue the corporate areas bring in. Yes, they pay much more than regular ticket holders but the small proportion of customers and associated costs that go with it mean it isn't quite the all important money spinner you think it might be.

 

But read again what you've just said. IF an increased stand can fill the seats, and if it also fills new corporate boxes (which we just don't know right know, but corporate sales in the past couple of years have been extremely low), then yes, its worth expanding. NOBODY is denying that. But the club simply have to be certain that it will be commercially viable to do so. At the moment, tehre's certainly no evidence whatsoever that right now we need more corporate boxes, we've struggled to even sell half this season. And its a similar story with regular matchday tickets, where'r our average attendance this season will see us 5,000-6,000 short of capacity. To expand right now given those benchmarks doesn't make business sense.

 

I agree with what you just said but corporate boxes may not be the only way of generating extra income from the stand. Maybe NC has other clever plans? It might not be about extra seats. Some one has already mentioned keeping in the ground longer before and after the games, so maybe the new stand will have more entertainment. Like I said that's for the clever analysts and marketing teams.

[The Kraken]

Again to illustrate:

 

32K - max capacity max demand, ST waiting list, 3000-5000 regular not able to get tickets or afford them as max price for all seats possible - means reduced RANGE of ticket price, less concessions, OAPs, kids all pay full price say £45-£35, club is happy, better demographic, richer folk spending loadsa money in the concorses = Total match day income of £X

 

46K - same demand - everyone can fit it who wants to go, so you, but some issues reamin on affordabilty - you can now offer kids.OAP concessions as wel as increase the range from top seats with benefits for £50 to £30 = maybe 8000 more on the gate + 8000 more spending in the concourses = total match day income of £X++

 

Of course it depends on demand, but given how the demographic of football fans has shifted in part because of affordabilty, its not beyond the realms of what is rational to consider that greater capacity through greater pricing flexibilty will encourage a broader demographic?

 

FC, what you've done is taken a guess at the figures that SFC will need to see. You say 3000 - 5000 regular not able to get tickets; we simply don't know yet if that's the case or not. We don't know if it was the case last time were in the Premier League, tean years ago. It certainly hasn't been the case this season, where we've had 5,000 - 6,000 empty seats on average in what has been (or so many say) one of the most exciting seasons for years. And we have NEVER had a season ticket waiting list in our history at SMS.

 

If greater flexibility of pricing will bring greater capacity, why has Cortese not been doing it so far to fill our existing empty seats? Why will he only consider such a move after he has spent another £20M to create even more empty seats? i really struggle to follow the financial logic of this approach; spend more on your stadium so that you have to incentivise and discount just to fill it. Much better to wait and see if the demand is there, and then build to fill that demand.

[Frank's cousin]

'I want anew stadium of 50K because it would make us out to be a bigger club and I want it now and its does not matter how we pay for it or if we are relagted'

 

I am sure there are a couple you actually do think like that, but te trouble with some thos eso opposed to this discussion, is that you seem to think we ALL think like that. For my part I am talking about a hyperthetical situation where demand is far greater than capacity and where as a result teh club has been able to increase prices significantly without compromising on the gate.

 

Expansion under those terms does allow for greater flexibilty and a broader demographic with increased numbers spending more cash - if te funding were appropriate and sensible it would be an obvious decison...

 

That's my take - so is there anything illiogical about that 'hypertthetical situation'?

 

The only 'realism' issue is that such plans take years to establish against a backdrop of ever spiraling construction costs - so any business worth its salt will have an ellement of long term future planning and I would expect that what NC has been talking about is that - the fact that as a club he wont rule anything out because its vital that a buisness considers the long term.... again what is illogical in that?

[stev2001]

Ok to put it anotherway. If a new stand is built and the tickets sold for this stand only covered the cost of its running costs due to the fact for some games it will have heavily discounted seats etc. would it be worth it...of course not. However if the other money making revenues covered the cost of the loan to build it. Would it be worth it then? Of course it would.

[Frank's cousin]

FC, what you've done is taken a guess at the figures that SFC will need to see. You say 3000 - 5000 regular not able to get tickets; we simply don't know yet if that's the case or not. We don't know if it was the case last time were in the Premier League, tean years ago. It certainly hasn't been the case this season, where we've had 5,000 - 6,000 empty seats on average in what has been (or so many say) one of the most exciting seasons for years. And we have NEVER had a season ticket waiting list in our history at SMS.

 

If greater flexibility of pricing will bring greater capacity, why has Cortese not been doing it so far to fill our existing empty seats? Why will he only consider such a move after he has spent another £20M to create even more empty seats? i really struggle to follow the financial logic of this approach; spend more on your stadium so that you have to incentivise and discount just to fill it. Much better to wait and see if the demand is there, and then build to fill that demand.

 

 

Yes agreed that I have 'suggested 3000-5000 - surely it was clear this was a hyperthetical number to illustrate a point - if that was not clear, then aplogies, but it was... eg IF that were the case it would drive teh rest etc

 

This is the same point that Prof Fry is constesting. Its tricky to explain, so hear me out: we are not talkig about incentivising to fill empty seats - we are not doing that now, but we still have kids/OAP?famly concessions already and no demand to fll the ground.

 

I am talking about a Hyperthetical situation ...in the FUTURE, where we dont need to offer concessions or a broad ticket price because we can easily fill 32k at £40+ a seat... Under those circumstance syou have disenfranchised many that cant afford that etc. Increased capacity then provides you with teh opportunity to reintroduce greater flexibilty in pricing to braoden the demographic...for me its a simple model. Its not increased capacity driving demand, the demand is already assumed to be there, the increased capacity mere provides the way of capturing the £££ from a broader demographic.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Leaving aside the Ford analogy, as I can't make much sense of it or see how its at all releavnt . A lot of people seem convinced we'd have cheaper seats after spending millions and millions on an increased capacity. Really, what sort of business model is that? You increase supply to satisfy demand; not the other way round.

 

The conversation is irrelevant, as the club will do what they see fit, when they see fit. I'm just amazed so many people are convinced we're going to spend £20M or more just so that we can introduce more flexible, cheaper, discounted tickets.

 

All right then forget Henry Ford, open your eyes and take look at the modern world all around you.

 

We are almost literally surrounded by examples of businesses expanding on the basis of selling their product cheaper than their competitors can, indeed this is the very foundation of capitalism. I live in Poole and its old high street is now infested with charity shops because most of the traditional traders we used to see have gone out of business because of the likes of ASDA and Tesco can bulk buy (and thus sell) stuff a hell of a lot cheaper than they possibly can. The rapidly growing success of internet business such as Amazon or EBay is yet another example of this.

 

Say for arguments sake in the future a 38,000 seat St Marys had seats to see Premier League fixtures on sell for the equivalent of around £20 in todays money. On that basis it seems to me quite possible - even likely perhaps - that we'd often sell out because I see no evidence that the demand for the national game is about to disappear for some reason. There must be tens of thousands of (often younger) football fans in our region who seldom, if ever, attend PL matches now because they just can't afford to come. If they can come to see bloody Man Utd or Liverpool then sooner or later some of them with catch the habit of going to football games regularly and this old club might finally fulfill the business potential Cortese and Markus Liebherr saw in it when they bought it.

 

I'll repeat that none of the above is nearly as important as investing in the first team - the bedrock upon which all else must stand, or fall.

[Turkish]

It wasn't too long ago that they announced that they would have to cut their playing budget and stop making expensive signings because they were't selling as many tickets as expected. They are't the best role models if you're trying to justify Saints' stadium expansion. Their attendances have recently picked up because of their new manager I guess.

 

This can't be true mate. Sunderland have the 4th biggest stadium in the country with a capacity of 49k I think. Using MLGs arguement that the size of stadium is in direct correlation to league position Sunderland should finish 4th EVERY season. Add to this that no club has any problem filling their new, bigger stadiums then something is definitely wrong. Build it and they will come. Expand, expand, expand.

[The Kraken]

Yes agreed that I have 'suggested 3000-5000 - surely it was clear this was a hyperthetical number to illustrate a point - if that was not clear, then aplogies, but it was... eg IF that were the case it would drive teh rest etc

 

This is the same point that Prof Fry is constesting. Its tricky to explain, so hear me out: we are not talkig about incentivising to fill empty seats - we are not doing that now, but we still have kids/OAP?famly concessions already and no demand to fll the ground.

 

I am talking about a Hyperthetical situation ...in the FUTURE, where we dont need to offer concessions or a broad ticket price because we can easily fill 32k at £40+ a seat... Under those circumstance syou have disenfranchised many that cant afford that etc. Increased capacity then provides you with teh opportunity to reintroduce greater flexibilty in pricing to braoden the demographic...for me its a simple model. Its not increased capacity driving demand, the demand is already assumed to be there, the increased capacity mere provides the way of capturing the £££ from a broader demographic.

 

Again, I think that's what I'm saying. You simply have to wait until you hit those benchmarks before you consider expansion.

 

We haven't yet hit those targets. We have no idea what effect the financial downturn will have on attendances in the top division. Or what effect the increased ticket prices will have either.

 

As I've said before, I don't believe anyone is saying that we should never expand. There just seems to be an unnecessary rush by some to get building right now, when clealrly the more pragmatic approach is to start building when we're more certain that we can regularly fill the increased capacity.

[Frank's cousin]

All right then forget Henry Ford, open your eyes and take look at the modern world all around you.

 

We are almost literally surrounded by examples of businesses expanding on the basis of selling their product cheaper than their competitors can, indeed this is the very foundation of capitalism. I live in Poole and its old high street is now infested with charity shops because most of the traditional traders we used to see have gone out of business because of the likes of ASDA and Tesco can bulk buy (and thus sell) stuff a hell of a lot cheaper than they possibly can. The rapidly growing success of internet business such as Amazon or EBay is yet another example of this.

 

Say for arguments sake in the future a 38,000 seat St Marys had seats to see Premier League fixtures on sell for the equivalent of around £20 in todays money. On that basis it seems to me quite possible - even likely perhaps - that we'd often sell out because I see no evidence that the demand for the national game is about to disappear for some reason. There must be tens of thousands of (often younger) football fans in our region who seldom, if ever, attend PL matches now because they just can't afford to come. If they can come to see bloody Man Utd or Liverpool then sooner or later some of them with catch the habit of going to football games regularly and this old club might finally fulfill the business potential Cortese and Markus Liebherr saw in it when they bought it.

 

I'll repeat that none of the above is nearly as important as investing in the first team - the bedrock upon which all else must stand, or fall.

 

Problem is Charlie, that the 'opposition' are quiterightly suggesting that selling 38k at a rate that does not add significantly to to revenue than 32k at a higher rate is a false economy given the cost of creeating those extra seats etc... logical if looked at in that simple way

 

Deamnd can be looked at in a number of ways - what is the actual demand based on who wants to go and can afford to go, and the potential demand based on who wants to go but cant afford to go

 

So increasd capacity allows you the luxury of developing a pricing model that ensures you can create at least some seats to bring in those who cant afford the higher price created by limited supply at a smaller stadium. IF THERE IS SUCH A SITUATION IN THE FUTURE

 

I would not be surprised to see some innovative club introduce a 'easyJet' pricing model in future for certain games and parts of the ground. We have seen empty seats at many prem clubs of late so there are many factors to consider, but to dismiss the ideas simply based on the current demand seems if anything naive

Edited 21 April, 2012 by Frank's cousin

[CB Fry]

All right then forget Henry Ford, open your eyes and take look at the modern world all around you.

 

We are almost literally surrounded by examples of businesses expanding on the basis of selling their product cheaper than their competitors can, indeed this is the very foundation of capitalism. I live in Poole and its old high street is now infested with charity shops because most of the traditional traders we used to see have gone out of business because of the likes of ASDA and Tesco can bulk buy (and thus sell) stuff a hell of a lot cheaper than they possibly can. The rapidly growing success of internet business such as Amazon or EBay is yet another example of this.

 

Say for arguments sake in the future a 38,000 seat St Marys had seats to see Premier League fixtures on sell for the equivalent of around £20 in todays money. On that basis it seems to me quite possible - even likely perhaps - that we'd often sell out because I see no evidence that the demand for the national game is about to disappear for some reason. There must be tens of thousands of (often younger) football fans in our region who seldom, if ever, attend PL matches now because they just can't afford to come. If they can come to see bloody Man Utd or Liverpool then sooner or later some of them with catch the habit of going to football games regularly and this old club might finally fulfill the business potential Cortese and Markus Liebherr saw in it when they bought it.

 

I'll repeat that none of the above is nearly as important as investing in the first team - the bedrock upon which all else must stand, or fall.

 

 

 

Really don't get this anology at all. The clubs aim is clearly NOT to sell "our product cheaper than our competitors can" and it never will be. If Cortese was trying to do anything like that then he would be doing all he can with the six, seven, eight thousand tickets he's had to play with all season. But he hasn't. He's maintained his price position at the expense of more through the gates (and all these burger sales that are being massively overplayed in the theories being banded about on here.)

 

A football club is not a car factory or a supermarket. And football clubs, ours especially, are not going to invest in capital building projects just to turn our box office into the Easyjet of sport.

[stev2001]

Problem is Charlie, that the 'opposition' are quiterightly suggesting that selling 38k at a rate that does not add significantly to to revenue than 32k at a higher rate is a false economy given the cost of creeating those extra seats etc... logical if looked at in that simple way

 

Deamnd can be looked at in a number of ways - what is the actual demand based on who wants to go and can afford to go, and the potential demand based on who wants to go but cant afford to go

 

So increasd capacity allows you the luxury of developing a pricing model that ensures you can create at least some seats to bring in those who cant afford the higher price created by limited supply at a smaller stadium. IF THERE IS SUCH A SITUATION IN THE FUTURE

 

I would not be surprised to see some innovative club introduce a 'easyJet' pricing model in future for certain games and parts of the ground. We have seen empty seats at many prem clubs of late so there are many factors to consider, but to dismiss the ideas simply based on the current demand seems if anything naive

 

Exactly, thinking outside the box is what we should be doing.

Also can someone acknowledge that building another tier creates a lot of extra space behind the stand for potential commercial use. Boxes or something else. There is other money to be made by expanding!

Edited 21 April, 2012 by stev2001

[Frank's cousin]

Again, I think that's what I'm saying. You simply have to wait until you hit those benchmarks before you consider expansion.

 

We haven't yet hit those targets. We have no idea what effect the financial downturn will have on attendances in the top division. Or what effect the increased ticket prices will have either.

 

As I've said before, I don't believe anyone is saying that we should never expand. There just seems to be an unnecessary rush by some to get building right now, when clealrly the more pragmatic approach is to start building when we're more certain that we can regularly fill the increased capacity.

 

 

And I have not disagreed with any of that.

 

I do however agree with those that its possible to INCREASE demand, to create it through quality of product, appropriate marketing and appropriate pricing - we have not done that these last few years an only NC knows the reasons why, but it would certainly be a consideration IF a feasibilty assessment were to be made about expansion in the future

 

We al know that football crowd are notoriously fickle at most clubs, with there being a large contingent of prem onlys who are more often than not in a demographic that is better off... Capacity increase means we dont have to simply shift towards that demographic, but can accomodate all...

Edited 21 April, 2012 by Frank's cousin

[farawaysaint]

Who rated this thread 5 stars?

[sotonjoe]

This can't be true mate. Sunderland have the 4th biggest stadium in the country with a capacity of 49k I think. Using MLGs arguement that the size of stadium is in direct correlation to league position Sunderland should finish 4th EVERY season. Add to this that no club has any problem filling their new, bigger stadiums then something is definitely wrong. Build it and they will come. Expand, expand, expand.

 

Yeh quite

[sotonjoe]

Who rated this thread 5 stars?

The OP?

[CB Fry]

This "luxury" of having tickets that only hard up people can afford that Frank loves to talk about....I am still waiting to hear how you stop people that could afford to pay more from buying them?

 

ie - how can this idea not devalue the entire stadium?

[sotonjoe]

This "luxury" of having tickets that only hard up people can afford that Frank loves to talk about....I am still waiting to hear how you stop people that could afford to pay more from buying them?

 

ie - how can this idea not devalue the entire stadium?

 

That's the problem.

[The Kraken]

Exactly, thinking outside the box is what we should be doing.

Also can someone acknowledge that building another tier created a lot of extra space behind the stand for potential commercial use. Boxes or something else. There is other money to be made by expanding!

 

Once again you're getting excited and lapsing into a "build it and they will come" mode.

 

Where is the commercial sense in building a whole new row of corporate boxes when, last season, we failed to sell half of the ones we currently have? If not boxes, then what other revenue-making schemes should the expansion encompass?

[Frank's cousin]

And football clubs, ours especially, are not going to invest in capital building projects just to turn our box office into the Easyjet of sport.

 

Slightly dismissive of what was at the time a very innovative pricing model... someone of your experience , intellect and knowledge should surely not let the poor service crapy seats and flight delays associated with EJ, cloud yor judgement of a good pricing model?

 

We are not talking about NC being willing to compromise the integrity of the 'brand' through cheaper service or poorer product, but about ensuring (potentially in the future subject to demand real or potential) that the club can provide seats to those that want them at a price that is appropriate

[B Rabbit]

What does our new 60,000 seater stadium look like?

[Thedelldays]

Once again you're getting excited and lapsing into a "build it and they will come" mode.

 

Where is the commercial sense in building a whole new row of corporate boxes when, last season, we failed to sell half of the ones we currently have? If not boxes, then what other revenue-making schemes should the expansion encompass?

well, seeing as we won't be building anything this summer...I guess, (if any of this is remotely true) the next season will give us a great indication or whether to whack 6-8k seats on the kinds land.